Will the show be good? Our hopes and concerns

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, but the dark one can do all sorts of weird stuff.

if the dark one does something that's an exception to the normal rules of the world, everyone will understand it's a case of "a wizard did it" and not something to be expanded upon

 

Which would still have to be true even after the change they have made that souls can be reincarnated as a different gender

[Rose]

Re: pillow friends, it's also a poor example because it's considered a childish thing you're supposed to grow out and of looked down upon if you don't. That's not exactly stellar queer representation.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

How can it exist if souls are restricted to M/F? Or do you mean only a soul that can't be reincarnated and can't channel? 

 

Because souls have nothing to do with gender identity. Nowhere in the book does it that because someone is born male they must remain that way. Just because there was presentation of transgender individuals doesn't mean it wasn't possible. 

 

I don't understand why people are conflating souls with gender identity. The two concepts have nothing to do with each in my mind. And it certainly isn't stated that they are the same in the books. Mainly because the subject was never explored.

[themann1086]

7 minutes ago, Rose said:

Re: pillow friends, it's also a poor example because it's considered a childish thing you're supposed to grow out and of looked down upon if you don't. That's not exactly stellar queer representation.

I would love it if they changed Moiraine and Siuan's relationship to being real* but it falling apart as a result of their mission. Add some extra "I sacrificed everything for this" oomph

 

*ETA by real I mean "a romantic relationship with depth" not "pillowfriends"

Edited November 12, 2021 by themann1086
Clarifying

[king of nowhere]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Which would still have to be true even after the change they have made that souls can be reincarnated as a different gender

yes, i'm saying it makes sense either way.

book canon: souls have gender. balthamel soul is male and channels saidin; the DO stuck him in female body, he still channels saidin.

tv canon: souls have no gender and they channel saidin or saidar depending on the body they inhabit. but the DO, with his dark power, gave balthamel the body of a woman but still made him channel saidin. because the DO is a godlike being, and therefore he can.

i doubt anyone would cry foul for the worldbuilding implications.

3 minutes ago, Rose said:

Re: pillow friends, it's also a poor example because it's considered a childish thing you're supposed to grow out and of looked down upon if you don't. That's not exactly stellar queer representation.

I take it as further proof how how crappy is teaching and mentoring in the white tower. there is no support structure, the novices and accepted are left to self-medication, and the stuff they do to help cope with everything - the stuff that's actually beneficial - is even frowned upon.

it's like looking down on people for going to the doctor when sick, or from going to the psicologist when depressed. toxic, toxic, toxic.

Ever since i started teaching, my dislike for aes sedai institutions has increased enormously

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Because souls have nothing to do with gender identity. Nowhere in the book does it that because someone is born male they must remain that way. Just because there was presentation of transgender individuals doesn't mean it wasn't possible. 

 

I don't understand why people are conflating souls with gender identity. The two concepts have nothing to do with each in my mind. And it certainly isn't stated that they are the same in the books. Mainly because the subject was never explored.

 

Jordan did tie which half of the power a channeler had access to was based on the soul, and the natural bodies of souls to the specific biological sex they would be born into. The way gender identity is currently talked about was very much less a thing when Jordan started writing the series, and even up to when he died.

[MasterAblar]

13 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Jordan did tie which half of the power a channeler had access to was based on the soul, and the natural bodies of souls to the specific biological sex they would be born into. The way gender identity is currently talked about was very much less a thing when Jordan started writing the series, and even up to when he died.

 

Yes exactly, gender was not even considered when RJ wrote series. It's not a concept that was put into the books. But for some reason people are going souls=gender.

[Ralph]

22 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

I would love it if they changed Moiraine and Siuan's relationship to being real* but it falling apart as a result of their mission. Add some extra "I sacrificed everything for this" oomph

 

*ETA by real I mean "a romantic relationship with depth" not "pillowfriends"

There was a leaked photo that implied such a thing

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Yes exactly, gender was not even considered when RJ wrote series. It's not a concept that was put into the books. But for some reason people are going souls=gender.

 

I wouldn't say gender wasn't considered. What's meant by the word gender in a lot of usage has changed.

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Yes exactly, gender was not even considered when RJ wrote series. It's not a concept that was put into the books. But for some reason people are going souls=gender.

 

Sorry, but I just don't understand

 

If a soul must always be M/F, that means in its every reincarnation it inhabits the body that is identified as M/F, and channels (if at all) the M/F part of the Power

 

How can transgender be consistent with this, never mind intersex, genderfluid, etc? 

 

Are you saying the person (body and soul) are born with one gender, and then choose to artificially modify it to resemble a different gender, but remain intrinsically (soul, channelling) their original (birth) gender? 

 

If not, how do you understand this? 

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

Sorry, but I just don't understand

 

If a soul must always be M/F, that means in its every reincarnation it inhabits the body that is identified as M/F, and channels (if at all) the M/F part of the Power

 

How can transgender be consistent with this, never mind intersex, genderfluid, etc? 

 

Are you saying the person (body and soul) are born with one gender, and then choose to artificially modify it to resemble a different gender, but remain intrinsically (soul, channelling) their original (birth) gender? 

 

If not, how do you understand this? 

 

How would they be born the next time? 

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Sorry, but I just don't understand

 

If a soul must always be M/F, that means in its every reincarnation it inhabits the body that is identified as M/F, and channels (if at all) the M/F part of the Power

 

How can transgender be consistent with this, never mind intersex, genderfluid, etc? 

 

Yes a male soul will always go into a male body. But although in one life they might be cisgender, in the next they might be transgender, intersex, or genderfluid. Every life is different and doesn't need to be determined by what their soul is.

 

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Are you saying the person (body and soul) are born with one gender, and then choose to artificially modify it to resemble a different gender, but remain intrinsically (soul, channelling) their original (birth) gender? 

 

Their soul will always remain what it is yes, and obviously what they channel because its tied to the soul, but that doesn't mean it has determine what gender they are in every life simply what they born as, or rather what body they born in.

 

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

How would they be born the next time? 

 

As whatever the soul is which is fine because it doesn't determine their life. In some ages perhaps the dragon was trangender. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that the wheel only decides what body you will be born into not who you end up being. Just as it doesn't decide your sexuality, there's no reason for it to decide your gender.

Edited November 12, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Tim]

To my mind there are two problems with the idea of "Halima/Arang'ar as trans", and reasons to junk the whole plot:

 

1. It happens by the direct act of the DO, to an evil character, and partly as punishment for Ba'athamel's prior failure - this has been discussed upthread, but obviously it's just not something that actual trans people would be likely to recognise as having anything to do with their lived experience, let alone an indication that their experience is considered valid. 

 

2. Moreover, the whole "there's someone chaneling saidin to kill female aes sedai who we can't find because - gasp - they look like a woman!" plot with Halima feels way too close to social moral panic around trans women and in particular the fear of trans women using female bathrooms in order to sexually assault biological women.

 

I don't think Jordan intended either of the above in the way that they would be received now (and in the books I enjoyed how it was Romanda, of all people, who finally worked it out) but it is what it is - and it would be naïve to handwave the issue away. The show is being made now and so the showrunners have to take responsibility for what they choose to reproduce from the books.

 

But I'm also pretty confident that RJ would not write this plot in the same way today; whatever he might privately have thought on the issue, the continuing political prominence of debates over public bathroom laws (primarily in the US south) would have caused him to realise that there was no way that the plot would be received as anything other than a barely-disguised political metaphor - ironically, the very thing so many people seem worried Rafe will inject into the show.

[MasterAblar]

7 minutes ago, Tim said:

1. It happens by the direct act of the DO, to an evil character, and partly as punishment for Ba'athamel's prior failure - this has been discussed upthread, but obviously it's just not something that actual trans people would be likely to recognise as having anything to do with their lived experience, let alone an indication that their experience is considered valid. 

 

If I remember correctly the punishment isn't so much that he put a man in a woman's body, but moreso that he specifically put Balthamel, who was a known womaniser, perhaps even criminal, into a woman's body.

Edited November 12, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Tim]

Yep that is right - which kind of makes it even more of a problem given point 2!

[Jackdaw_Fool]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

The Arwen at the Ford was simply changed from a male Elf to her

This was actually much more of a change than simply swapping out Glorfindel to Arwen and was actually my least favorite part of the movies (which I loved). We (the fandom) at the time argued about this change very similarly to the discussions here... The problem with that scene was that in the books it was the dramatic first example of Frodo beginning his defiance of the Dark Lord and finding his bravery in taking what he thought was a last stand against the ring wraiths. 'By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!' It was a favorite scene of many, and I think it's a shame we didn't get to see it in the movies. Elrond set the river waters raging (and Gandalf added the horse effects.) Of course in the movie, they changed it to Frodo being incapacitated and Arwen saving him and being the one to speak a defiant line (and also calling up the waters.) As you can imagine there were lots of upset fans (and complaints of changing the source material and pandering for "girl power", etc.)

I mention all that because I think it was a real tipping point at the time for those in fanbase disliking the Arwen addition and it may very well have had an effect on the remaining films as Arwen was removed from being at the battle of Helm's Deep (Arwen was to have played a significant role fighting in the battle.) I believe PJ never admitted the negative reaction from the fans playing a role in the removal, but a lot of circumstantial evidence points to it being at least involved.

I don't think Rafe, based on his comments, would make any changes to his story due to the reaction of the WoT fanbase, but maybe there is some value in speaking our minds loudly about things we dislike (and like.)

Edited November 12, 2021 by Jackdaw_Fool

[MasterAblar]

Oh for sure I can see it being hugely controversial. Which is a shame because at its heart its just a really good disguise. But sometimes we just can't have nice things.

[Tim]

Ironically, upthread SwollyMammoth - who has seen the LOTR films but not read the books - thought the Arwen scene worked, whereas “I am no man” was a hamfisted bit of girl power. Whereas in truth the former was the controversial change and the latter was faithful to the books. 
 

This just underscores the point I have been making all along - it’s entirely possible for scenes to come across as hamfisted, posturing, unconvincing, jarring etc, but there is no rule as to how this in fact plays out - it all comes down to execution on the hand and what the viewer brings to the table on the other. It actually seems pretty likely to me that a fresh viewer would be entirely unconcerned about degendered souls but persuade themselves that the entire concept of the taint is a hamfisted metaphor for toxic masculinity devised by woke lecturers. But we know which of those is actually RJ’s concept.

 

several people here have said words to the effect of “We know woke pandering when we see it” - the above examples show that it’s not nearly as straightforward as that.

[MasterAblar]

For a little less doom and gloom about what will be or won't be concerning the series I just want to say that everytime they annouce something I don't agree with, after a day or two I manage to accept it and move on because when all is said and done these changes may affect the heart of the WoT world but they are not at the heart of the story. 

 

They won't be what I remember from the series because I trust it will nonetheless be brilliant. What I will remember are the brilliant moments I want to see. I want to see the epic sounding of the horn at Falme as the heroes throw the Seanchan back into the sea. I want to see Egwene's glorious defense of the White Tower. I want to see the shocking and terrifying entrance of the Ashaman onto the world stage at Dumai's Wells. I want to see the Two Rivers rediscover their strength and Faile return to Perrin. I want to see Rand's heart to heart with Nyneave in Bandar Eban as he nearly hits his moral nadir. I want to see Nyneave heal Logain. I want to see Logain choose hope over fear and then break the seals. I want to see Mat shatter everyone's expectation's of him time and time again. And I want to see Rand reach his epiphany as he mends his soul and chooses to reject despair.

 

Depsite everything I truly believe they will nail it. Because this story is just that good.

Edited November 12, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Jackdaw_Fool]

43 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

If I remember correctly the punishment isn't so much that he put a man in a woman's body, but moreso that he specifically put Balthamel, who was a known womaniser, perhaps even criminal, into a woman's body.

Yes, this exactly. Balthamel was lecherous and sadistic and it was a very nice turn of events specifically for him... If this too is removed/changed I'll be disappointed at its loss.

[Tim]

Moreover, I think it’s a testament to the world that RJ made that we can endlessly debate and analyse these issues - the richness and detail of WOT just provides such fertile ground. 
 

I guess one reason my disposition is to be sympathetic to the showrunners is that I find it so enjoyable to think about what I myself would keep or change about the books, the ripple effects, what might be lost and what could be gained. 

I’m sure that means many posters here are glad I am not on the writing team, but really my strongest feeling is curiosity - I am so excited to see just how the creators have grappled with adapting this behemoth, what they have changed, how those changes flow through the story and so on.

[Bill1185]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:47 PM, Harldin said:

What Gender changes? 

I read the dragon reborn might be a woman. I am a bit of a purist in that i think this is a huge change to the story

[Pembie]

The show has been renewed for season three already 

[ForsakenPotato]

I'm feeling about 8/10 right now and hopeful I'm not being over-optimistic? Among my favorite characters in the books are Loial and Nyneave, and I'm feeling pretty good about Nyneave's portrayal based on the material so far. I'm more worried about Loial because I don't think we've gotten much of him at all. I really hope we get to see a lot more and he doesn't end up as just comic relief. He's often a really good moral grounding for some of the EF5 when they are acting on their worst instincts and I hope the show gives his character the depth he deserves.

 

I also hope the show can nail the balance between realistic (in terms of dialogue/emotional depth) and cheesy/campy, which I think will be really difficult. The natural comparison is the GoT show, but I think if WoT is that grim it won't really be true to the spirit of the books, which have some incredibly sad and dark moments but are overall pretty fun. I want the scary parts to be scary, but balanced with people calling each other woolheads, some good tavern songs, the lads awkward flirting attempts, etc.

[themann1086]

I follow most of the actors on social media including Hammed Animashaun (Loial's actor), and I get the feeling that they are very excited for Loial's reveal.