full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[pretty_blossom]

I watched the 3 episodes, and i can see why they changed things, some for the better and some because there's no choice in a different medium. I find that Leila was a necessary change, as well as Abel Cathoun - but I don't understand why they made Mat a thief, or what's with the changes to the power. Aes Sedai do not need hands or mouth to work the power, but they do need to see the threads - so what's with Moirain telling about a blind one, or the poor yellow getting her hands cut off and being gaged?!

The story that Nynaev told about the previous wisdom getting rejected from the White Tower for being poor is also fishy - if she really could channel, thr Tower would have kept her no matter what. Still, Nynaeve does need a better reason to hate Moirain other than "she took my people out of my village and ruined their lives" - that one always was a weak motive to me - it's not Moirain's fault Rand can channel, or Perrin talking to wolves.

[Harad the White]

8 minutes ago, pretty_blossom said:

but I don't understand why they made Mat a thief, or

Wiki sez,

Mat is often described as lazy, roguish, immature, tactless, and brazen. He is not afraid to flout any and all authority figures around him, and typically tries whatever he can to shirk responsibility and work."

 

Taking valuables from a dead Aeil in a hostile town when you are starving, doesn't seem out of character, as above.

[Joe B]

52 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Ok this idea that the characters have been “aged up” is nonsensical. In the books the 3 boys are nearly 20 and Egwene is 17

B...b...but, Rafe said on Twitter:

Quote

We aged up the Emond’s Field Five from the books because sometimes TV shows with a bunch of 17 year olds as leads feel more like YA and Wheel of Time isn’t YA

 

[Meskell]

16 minutes ago, pretty_blossom said:

I watched the 3 episodes, and i can see why they changed things, some for the better and some because there's no choice in a different medium. I find that Leila was a necessary change, as well as Abel Cathoun - but I don't understand why they made Mat a thief, or what's with the changes to the power. Aes Sedai do not need hands or mouth to work the power, but they do need to see the threads - so what's with Moirain telling about a blind one, or the poor yellow getting her hands cut off and being gaged?!

The story that Nynaev told about the previous wisdom getting rejected from the White Tower for being poor is also fishy - if she really could channel, thr Tower would have kept her no matter what. Still, Nynaeve does need a better reason to hate Moirain other than "she took my people out of my village and ruined their lives" - that one always was a weak motive to me - it's not Moirain's fault Rand can channel, or Perrin talking to wolves.

The book literally states that AS need their hands to channel and you can tell who taught them by the movements they make. 
 

The difference is that you don’t need your hands to channel, which is why the Wise Ones have open contempt of the silly waving about that the AS do. 
 

The Nynaeve one, again, later Tower accepts anyone but the Tower at the beginning turns away people who are deemed to be ‘too old’. 

[DaddyFinn]

21 minutes ago, pretty_blossom said:

Aes Sedai do not need hands or mouth to work the power, but they do need to see the threads - so what's with Moirain telling about a blind one,

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Source:Blog_-_I'M_BAAAA-AAACK,_22_November_2005

 

Quote

Someone asked how difficult it is for a blind person to channel, but I didn’t make a note of who. In any case, it is difficult but not impossible. The different flows have different feels, though saying they have different flavors might be as accurate. In the comic, we use colors, not because they actually have colors but because they also can be told apart by sight. Someone who was blind and who tried to learn to channel would be able to differentiate between flows of the Five Powers. The difficulty would be in learning to make the weaves.

 

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Source:Blog_-_I'M_BAAAA-AAACK,_22_November_2005

 

 

To add to this in EoTW, Rand "weaved" Healing/Wind/Lightning without seeing what he was doing.

[Beidomon]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Have they though? Where do you see Egwene having been 'robbed' of her naivety? She's only learned that she can channel just before having been separated from Rand. She clearly likes that and idolizes Moiraine. And there's every reason to think that they will be reunited. Why can't they still have the "I'm going to be Aes Sedai and you can be my warder!" moment? 

 

I understand how the degendering thing and the ta'veren thing mess with the lore. I don't think it's a necessary change. But at the end of the day, neither of them does anything to change the characters or their arcs.

Kinda seems like the writers have already progressed Eg past that point. We will see. We should place some friendly non-monetary wagers on some of these points. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Beidomon said:

Kinda seems like the writers have already progressed Eg past that point.

Explain. Because, to me, all they've done with Egwene is show her as being excited about her ability, struggling with her feelings for Rand, and being sort of infatuated with Moiraine.

[Joe B]

15 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Source:Blog_-_I'M_BAAAA-AAACK,_22_November_2005

 

 

Since this was brought back up, I wanted to say something. Learning to channel and earning the shawl are not mutually inclusive.

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Joe B said:

Since this was brought back up, I wanted to say something. Learning to channel and earning the shawl are not mutually inclusive.

Of course, but it is a possibility

[Joe B]

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Of course, but it is a possibility

 

[Beidomon]

34 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Explain. Because, to me, all they've done with Egwene is show her as being excited about her ability, struggling with her feelings for Rand, and being sort of infatuated with Moiraine.

It’s my impression based upon where we are in the story. Based upon the trials and tribulation she has experienced thus far, I think we’re past that level of naïveté, and I think that was a missed layup by the writers. I guess that one of my biggest frustrations with the writing team - I realize that adapting this series isn’t easy, but they seem to be whiffing on a lot of easy stuff. 

[Kudzu]

50 minutes ago, Joe B said:

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Ok this idea that the characters have been “aged up” is nonsensical. In the books the 3 boys are nearly 20 and Egwene is 17

B...b...but, Rafe said on Twitter:

Quote

We aged up the Emond’s Field Five from the books because sometimes TV shows with a bunch of 17 year olds as leads feel more like YA and Wheel of Time isn’t YA

 

I don't think it's really made clear exactly how old they are in the books, at least not early on. They are actually more like 19 and a quarter. Born in winter, story starts in early spring. So the boys would have turned 19 a few months ago. Looking at the timeline on the Amazon Prime app they are exactly the same age in the show. So Egwene is the only one that's actually been made older.

 

I think what they really mean when they say "aged up" is they've increased their maturity level. In the books they really are still acting like and are treated like immature kids. Whereas in the show, they have adult relationships and adult problems.

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

It’s my impression based upon where we are in the story. Based upon the trials and tribulation she has experienced thus far, I think we’re past that level of naïveté, and I think that was a missed layup by the writers. I guess that one of my biggest frustrations with the writing team - I realize that adapting this series isn’t easy, but they seem to be whiffing on a lot of easy stuff. 

I guess I find this frustrating. You keep saying things like "we're past that level of naivete" or that the writers "missed a layup", but you don't explain WHY we're past it, or what the layup was that was missed, or where it would have fit in the overall narrative.

 

So again, what scene or scenes make Egwene not naive anymore? What scene or scenes with Egwene should have been changed and how? What would you add and where? Try to explain your views to me...

[pretty_blossom]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

Wiki sez,

Mat is often described as lazy, roguish, immature, tactless, and brazen. He is not afraid to flout any and all authority figures around him, and typically tries whatever he can to shirk responsibility and work."

 

Taking valuables from a dead Aeil in a hostile town when you are starving, doesn't seem out of character, as above.

I was talking about the bracelet Mat stole from the woman at the inn and sold to Fain - that was totally unnecessary. Deaging his sisters and making his parents disfunctional was logical to explain future behavior, but Mat was never a thief, just a gambler.

[Beidomon]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I guess I find this frustrating. You keep saying things like "we're past that level of naivete" or that the writers "missed a layup", but you don't explain WHY we're past it, or what the layup was that was missed, or where it would have fit in the overall narrative.

 

So again, what scene or scenes make Egwene not naive anymore? What scene or scenes with Egwene should have been changed and how? What would you add and where? Try to explain your views to me...

I should have thought that to be self evident. We’re now past Winternight, Shadar Logoth, being chased for days by shadowspawn, and I assume her and Perrin’s imminent custody by the CoL. That’s a lot of trauma. That’s the basis for my guess. It’s a guess. I could be wrong, but I think I’ve got a pretty good basis for it. Not sure why that is frustrating. ?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Beidomon said:

Not sure why that is frustrating.

Because you are conflating plot with character development, I guess?

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, pretty_blossom said:

I was talking about the bracelet Mat stole from the woman at the inn and sold to Fain - that was totally unnecessar

Think Robinhood. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor. Again,  like many things, it's a visual way to take the place of thousands of words.

[Whittle]

Not a big fan so far. Watched the first 2 episodes. Pacing issues and wooden acting. I’ve heard people say that they are trying to cram a lot into a few short episodes but it doesn’t feel crammed to me. It seems we are missing a lot of the story! They would have time for more of what happens in the book if they actors spent less time staring at the pretty landscapes and doing things that, you know, are not in the books. 

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Whittle said:

It seems we are missing a lot of the story! They

There should be an alternate Amazon-ish WoT wiki. It would be great to see people with this idea create an alternate series with scenes for each episode. Of course, if it turns out to be 1400 episodes because of everything included, it just might be priced out of the market. But sticking to the same length and number of episodes, an alternate, and superior creation, would be fascinating.

[Kudzu]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I guess I find this frustrating. You keep saying things like "we're past that level of naivete" or that the writers "missed a layup", but you don't explain WHY we're past it, or what the layup was that was missed, or where it would have fit in the overall narrative.

 

So again, what scene or scenes make Egwene not naive anymore? What scene or scenes with Egwene should have been changed and how? What would you add and where? Try to explain your views to me...

 

I think in the books Egwene certainly had a naive excitement for adventure that is missing in the show. The Winternight attack was far more brutal in the show than the books, she's watched her mentor be carried off by a Trolloc and thinks she's dead. She is dealing with the breakdown of her relationship with Rand. She seems to accept that the Trollocs might actually be chasing her and the boys and is sharing the nightmares, that she didn't have in the books. Book Egwene didn't really seem to accept they were in any danger until after Baerlon and was just excited to be on an adventure.

 

I'm not sure what the missed layup is though, because I found that Egwene annoying and unrealistic. I think the place she's in now as a character is similar to where she was at this point the books though.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Kudzu said:

Egwene certainly had a naive excitement for adventure that is missing in the show.

I agree with this. But I find it to be an improvement. I never liked her exit from Emond's Field on the heels of watching a bunch of trollocs burn down her town.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Kudzu said:

he Winternight attack was far more brutal in the show than the books, she's

Wow. Your town is attacked by 8 foot monsters out  of myth, half the people are killed, in words, but seeing it on screen makes it "far more brutal." Just need a more vivid imagination.

[Kudzu]

11 minutes ago, Whittle said:

Not a big fan so far. Watched the first 2 episodes. Pacing issues and wooden acting. I’ve heard people say that they are trying to cram a lot into a few short episodes but it doesn’t feel crammed to me. It seems we are missing a lot of the story! They would have time for more of what happens in the book if they actors spent less time staring at the pretty landscapes and doing things that, you know, are not in the books. 

 

I find this interesting. It seems to be far more common for book fans to have issues with the pacing than non-book fans. Especially in episode 1. At least in the reviews I've seen anyway. Also my wife who has read some of the books, but isn't a big fan didn't think there was anything off with the pacing in episode 1. I certainly found it rushed on first watch, less so on a second.

 

My theory about what is happening here is that those of us that know the story so well are noticing everything that's missing. So it feels like they are jumping from one thing to another, because we know the bits that go in-between. Thus it feels rushed. But for someone who doesn't know the story, they can just accept it as it's presented and it feels pretty natural.

[Kudzu]

8 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Wow. Your town is attacked by 8 foot monsters out  of myth, half the people are killed, in words, but seeing it on screen makes it "far more brutal." Just need a more vivid imagination.

 

I mean in terms of body count and destruction, also Egwene's involvement. In the books the Trollocs focused their attacks on the forge, Mat's house and the farm and I didn't get the impression a lot of people died. We don't really know what Egwene was up to, but in my head she was holed up in the Inn the whole time rather than being out there fighting and watching her friends die.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Kudzu