full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[notpropaganda73]

I rewatched all three episodes with my partner who has never read the books and her reactions have been interesting, with my reactions to her reactions in brackets:

 

- She is absolutely convinced that Perrin is the DR (I had to hide my initial surprise at this but it makes sense when you try and see it from a non-book reader POV. He has been given dream sequences along with Rand and *something* is going on with him in relation to the wolves.)

- She was bowled over by the Darkfriend reveal in episode 3. It never crossed her mind that there would be human servants of the Dark One. (I loved this, we both agreed that the chase through the village was really silly but that everything else about that character was done great)

- She picked up straight away that Moiraine is from a "fallen house" (I completely missed this on my first watch)

- She doesn't really understand the One Power as yet, in terms of the parameters of the OP or the differences between men and women channelers. She also doesn't really understand the scope of the Aes Sedai - she asked do you need to be trained from a young age and that was why Nynaeve's mentor was turned away? (This is something I think is absolutely fair and I hope in episode 4 with the introduction of Logain we'll get a much more fleshed out explanation or the OP and the Aes Sedai, with a good distinction between saidar and saidin). 

- She likes all of the EFers but Nynaeve (mostly because of her interactions with Lan in Ep3) and Mat are her favourites. When Mat was on his own in Shadar Logoth, before there was any hint of him doing anything wrong, she shouted "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING!" (though she didn't pick up on the whistling or that Padan Fain looked pretty pleased during the Trolloc attack, so I wonder if his character has been a bit forgettable for non-book readers so far seeing as he's only had a couple lines of dialogue). 

 

I'm definitely forgetting some things. She has had a *lot* of questions about the world and how things function, and I've tried to balance explanations with using the age old RAFO. But mostly I'm trying to stay silent when watching because I don't want to give a single thing away. 

 

[Beidomon]

36 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Something I really take issue with though are suggestions that Rafe or the writers or whoever, all actively hate the books in some way, or are making choices and changes in order to put their own political/personal values into the world of WoT etc. I think comments like this are immature *at best*. I think it is clear as day that Rafe is a huge fan of WoT

Im not sure anyone has opined that Rafe and crew hate the books. I think Rafe has made quite clear in interviews that he’s very much in favor of “adapting” the materials “to meet modern sensibilities” and he said this specifically regarding opening up the DR to women. I think that’s close enough to however you define “putting their own political/personal values into the world of WOT.” So I don’t think that’s immature to point out. 

[Beidomon]

For the record, I (and a few others) pointed out that Rafe was making a massive change to the lore, and its ramifications, and how this did not bode well, weeks ago when we first learned of it. 
 

Gotta say that reading these last 3 or 4 pages of comments, seeing so many other people come belatedly to the same realization, feels good. Feels validating. If there’s one thing the interwebs are good for, it’s validation! ?

 

Now, to be fair, we didn’t know a few weeks ago how badly the change would be executed, or how totally pointless it would be (preserving a “mystery” that’s isn’t a mystery at all to anyone with an IQ north of 70). But another thing the interwebs are good for is taking credit that’s not totally justified. So I’m gon take my victory lap now. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Beidomon

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

I just think they felt that the impact to the actual story they're telling is small enough compared to the blowback they'd have from "of course the savior has to be a man" crowd.

See I would agree with that… except the savoir ends up being a man anyway. That same crowd would still complain I feel like. They could have just had a passage about the heroes of the horn to be honest to show that the dragon isn’t always the hero called upon.

 

Sanderson seems to say it’s just because Rafe wanted included in the mystery of the Dragon Reborn. Seems like a bit of a weak reason for the change in my opinion. 
 

If he wanted mystery Rand, Mat, Perrin and even Logan seem sufficient to me. Which makes me wonder why they would include the age component in the details given of the prophecy since that detail knocks Logan out of contention.

[notpropaganda73]

9 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Im not sure anyone has opined that Rafe and crew hate the books. I think Rafe has made quite clear in interviews that he’s very much in favor of “adapting” the materials “to meet modern sensibilities” and he said this specifically regarding opening up the DR to women. I think that’s close enough to however you define “putting their own political/personal values into the world of WOT.” So I don’t think that’s immature to point out. 

 

Personally, the tone of a lot of those posts comes across as saying that Rafe would sacrifice the entirety of the WoT story in order to "push a woke feminist agenda". So I don't take them in good faith. I also think if someone is saying that Rafe has ruined the entire series, how could anyone make this change, how could they make this mistake etc., it's sort of implied that they also think Rafe has no respect for the source material. Maybe I'm making a leap to "Rafe hates the books" from that but it doesn't seem a large leap to me.

 

You can absolutely criticise those changes as I said, and I think you and others have been more than fair in criticisms. My post was more about the inundation of negative posts which amounted to "series ruined, Rafe is part of the PC woke brigade, I hate it", which as I said, was probably old news by the time I've posted, I just had the urge to vent (which we all do I'm sure ?)

Edited November 22, 2021 by notpropaganda73
clarifying

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

or how totally pointless it would be (preserving a “mystery” that’s isn’t a mystery at all to anyone with an IQ north of 70). 

 

You basically just said that someone's wife above has a sub-70 IQ, and plenty of show-only watchers avoiding book spoilers are still guessing. So your assertion here is really off target and kind of insulting. You're approaching it all with book knowledge.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

preserving a “mystery” that’s isn’t a mystery at all to anyone with an IQ north of 70

Nice way to insult a large amount of viewers. Congratulations.

 

4 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Now, to be fair, we didn’t know a few weeks ago how badly the change would be executed, or how totally pointless it would be

Many fans like the changes. ?

[notpropaganda73]

9 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

(preserving a “mystery” that’s isn’t a mystery at all to anyone with an IQ north of 70). 

 

20 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

- She is absolutely convinced that Perrin is the DR (I had to hide my initial surprise at this but it makes sense when you try and see it from a non-book reader POV. He has been given dream sequences along with Rand and *something* is going on with him in relation to the wolves.)

 

 

oh no ?

Edited November 22, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[Scarloc99]

There is a big Difference between what Peter Jackson did in changing Lord of the Rings to make it filmable, and what Rafe has done. Peter Jackson largely removed anything that was not directly related to the story of getting the ring to Mordor and added in more Female representation to try and balance out the very male centric world of the books. Rafe has changed bits of lore and rewritten characters, I have no doubt there is a vision in his head, and many of the changes I could accept, at the end of the day i see the TV show as a way to tell the story differently. But for me the poor production values, on top of the bad changes just makes it all bad. Plus, making changes form scene 1 takes away the chance to earn the right to make those changes later on. 

[TheDreadReader]

10 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

How did Moiraine disqualify the male channeler from being the DR - This has been on my pile of things I'm worried they won't explain... Don't get me wrong, they very well may in future episodes, we'll see.

 

Think maybe she disqualified him because he was gentled? As in, if he were actually the Dragon Reborn the pattern would have somehow prevented him from being gentled? I doubt it, because of the plot repercussions (would mean the dragon has plot shielding keeping him safe in some regards.) I only say I doubt it versus there's no way they'd go in that direction because I don't have faith in the show to fully make internal sense and be fully thought out. At least not yet based on what we've seen so far (still have hope!)

 

Yes.  The pattern and/or tav'veren nature would prevent him from being gentled.   That is why Moiraine references "four tav'veren" right after that despite non-book reading viewers having no reason to know what that means.  It is also why Lan says "He is the right age" and "He can channel".   They're laying out all the "criteria" for who the dragon is before hand so that it makes sense when it is revealed.

 

If you add in the pool scene with Moiraine and Nyneave, they give you another one:  "born outside the two rivers."

 

Following Winternight, when Rand confronts Moiraine, she basically flat out says who the Dragon is to the Dragon based on how the conversation is cut.     If you watch it in slow motion, the "you" lands on the Dragon, pauses for a beat, and the line about the four of you comes in.   

 

They laid the groundwork... some of the clunky editing is just the misdirect.

 

 

[Beidomon]

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

I just think they felt that the impact to the actual story they're telling is small enough compared to the blowback they'd have from "of course the savior has to be a man" crowd.

I hope you’re right. What you are describing would be the best case scenario. My concern is that this change was deliberately made to set up the further changes to the story it necessitates.

[TheDreadReader]

10 hours ago, KingBeyondTheFirewall said:

This also makes me think why Moiraine was asking Nynaeve about where she was born? If they don't know where the DR was born then why is it important if Nynaeve (a potential DR candidate at the point) was born in the Two Rivers or outside.

 

From what I can guess, Dragonmount IS in, but the line about "not knowing the place of birth" is a mistake or wrong. That's the only thing that makes sense.

 

If we keep in mind the various ways that Aes Sedai work within the three oaths.  We can think of it in terms of an "area measurement".   At what specific point within that "area" was the Dragon reborn?  She might not know the specific point within the containing area that it happened but as long as she is talking about the containing area and not the specific point .... she's not lying.

 

[Beidomon]

44 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

 

 

oh no ?

Sorry for my joke. How about this? Your wife is the obvious exception that proves the rule. 

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Sorry for my joke. How about this? Your wife is the obvious exception that proves the rule. 

 

I was also joking in my reply, the emoji was meant to indicate that. No harm either way ?

 

Plus she's not my wife! *panics in fear-of-commitment*

[DaddyFinn]

Found this on the comments of Lezbi Nerdy's review video:

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Source:Blog_-_I'M_BAAAA-AAACK,_22_November_2005

 

Quote

Someone asked how difficult it is for a blind person to channel, but I didn’t make a note of who. In any case, it is difficult but not impossible. The different flows have different feels, though saying they have different flavors might be as accurate. In the comic, we use colors, not because they actually have colors but because they also can be told apart by sight. Someone who was blind and who tried to learn to channel would be able to differentiate between flows of the Five Powers. The difficulty would be in learning to make the weaves.

 

[Agitel]

Revisiting Moiraine's pants in the show, did Jordan ever describe in more detail what he meant by "skirts divided for riding"? In my headcannon I imagined very flowy and spacious pants. But it also could be skirts that literally were just divided in half front and back and weren't closed in any way, which would mean the wearer would probably have been wearing pants of a sort underneath. I am just interested in how Jordan envisioned it. I'm not nitpicking the show's choices.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[Joe B]

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

Lans story to the boys stated they built it with no gate

 

"But when the world needed them most, they built their wall with no gate, locked themselves inside and let the other nations of man burn." -Lan

My take: As Aridhol descended into paranoia, they walled themselves in. I'm not sure why they went with this, other than it was quick and easy to deliver.

[TheTuna450]

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

 

You basically just said that someone's wife above has a sub-70 IQ, and plenty of show-only watchers avoiding book spoilers are still guessing. So your assertion here is really off target and kind of insulting. You're approaching it all with book knowledge.

It's quite disappointing that such condescension towards others' intelligence is still a big part of fantasy literature fandom/culture. Of course folks who have 0 knowledge of the books will not automatically identify Rand. Additionally, many show viewers are going to engage with the series quite casually and not really care enough to think deeply about the mystery. That doesn't mean that they're not intelligent, just that they don't really care enough to spend time or energy theorizing.

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Joe B said:

 

"But when the world needed them most, they built their wall with no gate, locked themselves inside and let the other nations of man burn." -Lan

My take: As Aridhol descended into paranoia, they walled themselves in. I'm not sure why they went with this, other than it was quick and easy to deliver.

That's actually a good reason to not build a gate. I thought the wall was built at the same time as the city itself

[Jackdaw_Fool]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

Yes.  The pattern and/or tav'veren nature would prevent him from being gentled.

I think it would too... But would Moiraine  know  this? Know this to the point where she can say, well that guy obviously wasn't the dragon... She would have to in order for that to be the disqualifier that confirmed the man was not the dragon. And if she knows that, that means she knows the dragon has shielding provided by the pattern (we would say plot armor). And it's not too far a leap to then presume the pattern is going to do what the pattern is going to do with the dragon reborn (the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.) And then what is Moiraine even doing in bothering to find the dragon, she might as well be off relaxing somewhere enjoying some tea. I hope they have a better explanation than the gentling thing that doesn't open a philosophical can of worms... (including such issues as I said a while back, if the dragon reborn can be a female, then yes the tower should just go about gentling every male channeler, potential dragon or no, etc. That way you can get the pattern to spin you out that much more desired, not going mad female dragon.)

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

And then what is Moiraine even doing in bothering to find the dragon

Obviously that's what the Pattern wants ?

[Joe B]

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Personally, the tone of a lot of those posts comes across as saying that Rafe would sacrifice the entirety of the WoT story in order to "push a woke feminist agenda".

I think some of these attacks stem from Rafe's own words:

Quote

JordanCon WoTOnPime Panel

On gender: the book series is more about gender than it is about women and men. The story as-is tackled some modern issues of gender. It isn’t hard as other book series because this stuff is in the books. Trying to “stay true to the intention” of the books. He gave the example of something that might have seemed feminist at the time of publication but no longer by today’s standard, you have to update it to maintain that intent. It’s more about balance between the genders than it is about women.

 

[Agitel]

I didn't take Moiraine's insistence as the type of matter of fact certainty regarding ta'veren or the Pattern. More like she just couldn't accept it and had to make herself believe otherwise rather than let herself believe the world had just been doomed to the Shadow.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[Joe B]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Found this on the comments of Lezbi Nerdy's review video:

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Source:Blog_-_I'M_BAAAA-AAACK,_22_November_2005

 

 

So, not impossible to channel, but much harder to become Aes Sedai. Learning the 100 useless weaves needed for testing....

Also, people complaining about not seeing different colors of the weaving should read that passage.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

Yes.  The pattern and/or tav'veren nature would prevent him from being gentled.

I'm not necessarily sure it's this. I think that it's more that the Dragon would not permit himself to be gentled without putting up a fight. The man never even tries to channel.