tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[Yojimbo]

3 hours ago, CanisNoir said:

 

 

Rand teleporting and taking out the Trolloc army at the Gap was kind of confusing and visually would have been pretty hard to depict in a fashion the viewing audience could follow. 

 

 

Well, they already showed Moiraine "teleporting" to have a booty call with Suian.  So the audience would have thought of that if they used a similar effect to get Rand to the Gap.  

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Well, they already showed Moiraine "teleporting" to have a booty call with Suian.  So the audience would have thought of that if they used a similar effect to get Rand to the Gap.  

Establishing a specific magical item tied to a specific place doesn't really explain doing it without any such trappings later.

Now, if we had seen the prologue adapted, seen LTT travel from his home to what becomes Dragonmount, then we have justification for Rand doing it later.

Either way, this also reinforces the aspect that Rand does not "Fight" in the way most think.  He'll forget this over the next 7 seasons and have to relearn it for the end.

[JaimAybara]

17 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

Let's be very frank here.  This is not a "Both sides" thing.  While I dislike the Bookcloaks and other name calling (and you'll note I have not used such).  There's a difference between a comical name and outright accusation that disagreeing is a sign of deliberate corporate sell out or manipulation.

There's even a difference in the use:
Bookcloak: Comical reference to White Cloak because the book purists feel they're doing the right thing but are going overboard.  It's an insult, it's not really appropriate, but there's a kernel of truth in how many book purists behave.

Where as the stance of "You're not a real fan, you're a fake, you're a sell out, you can't possibly have a different opinion than me without being a failure on some level"  that's...  yeah.

Both are insulting, both are inappropriate, one is heavier than the other.

 

Yes let’s be frank…People calling those that disagree with the show as the dark one or darkfriends is outrageously offensive. Particularly since the dark one is inspired by Islamic and Judeo-Christian demons / Satan… you are going to say this is nowhere near the same as being called a sellout? Come on…and it simultaneously implies they are right by default without having to actually argue points, because what’s the point in arguing with a “darkfriend”? They’re darkfriends. Both of these otherise. Let’s not pretend one is tongue in cheek though. It’s just as sanctimonious and condescending.  
 

 

*Both of these insults are ridiculous to me. We’re all fans here. Thinking differently doesn’t make anyone “not a fan”. It’s all Ad Hominem and Straw Man nonsense.*

Edited December 27, 2021 by JaimAybara
*additional thoughts*

[Jaysen Gore]

Okay, here’s review post #2 on Episode 8, completed after watch #2.

 

This review will be focused strictly on episode 8 – predictions for story, interpretations of what I think they’re doing – and why book readers will burn like that poor Malkieri woman – will come elsewhere.

 

Alright, still despise the cold open. LTT is no longer the leader of the AS, Latra correctly predicts (not foretells) the outcome, there is no desperation in LTT; they are not losing the war. As it stands, it has broken my emotional connection to the TV Series, because it has retroactively reframed everything they’ve done to the male characters so far. While I fully expect I will continue to watch, I will be doing so as a mental exercise, trying to work out where they are going, and not because I have much particular interest in what happens to these characters. I’m still interested in the meta story, but don’t much care about the actual story now.

 

Storyline 1: Moiraine and Rand. I actually thought this was okay. I thought the mystery guy versus Rand stuff / dream shard was well done. And the sa’angreal makes as much sense as converting a 3,000 year old pool of pure Saidin into energy to defeat the dark one. Still, Moiraine is being extremely fatalistic here, though. Since her plan was basically hoping Rand Ta’veren’s the DO back into his prison

 

Storyline 2: The throne room. This was horrendously lazy writing.  I am sympathetic about the situation they found themselves in with Barney Harris, but the writers didn’t course correct, and left a mess. I suspect all they did when Harris left was substitute Loial for Mat, with everything else in the scene being the exact same. With 2 fake out deaths on top of it. And we got a bad guy gloating monologue for exposition. And they took out any chance of the dagger being fatal. Lazy, lazy, lazy.

 

Storyline 3: the physical battle. From a technical perspective, I suspect Covid wrecked this completely. No ability to do large group melees or cavalry scenes, no physical interaction between the sides of any sort, reduced time / resources for principle shooting, less time for post-production making the Trollocs look horrid. More sympathy. However…even accounting for all that, what they came up with was a complete pile of dog crap. The only possible saving scenario is that sometime around season 7, Graendal admits she compulsed Agelmar.  I won’t go into all the details, but an 8 year old defending a snow fort has more practical defense knowledge than these writers

 

Storyline 4: The channeling battle. From a technical perspective, I thought this was really well done, except for the end of it. Each woman drawing a different amount of Saidar at the beginning and burning out in order was well done. The trolloc deaths were a good mix of practical and CG. The idea of burning out, even in circles is a pretty interesting change, and could have great impacts later in the series – if it survives that long. But Nynaeve not simply decking Amalisa after the fight was over to break her channeling was dumb. Whatever she did to eat Egwene’s burn out (a straight steal from Swamp Thing #50, for all you comic book geeks) didn’t come across, the fakeout death was really stupid, and Egwene trying to heal her was worse. More on this in season 2 predictions

 

Storyline 5: the Seanchan. They looked incredible, the Damane look terrifying, and thanks to high school wave mechanics, no on in Randland will ever have to worry about them. Because that 80’ tsunami is going to reflect off the cliff 100’ behind that little girl and obliterate the Corenne. Oops. I thought originally there was a town against the base of the cliffs, but nope, just rocks. Same scene with a small village and a harbour would have been incredible. As it is, Mat needs a new wife. Maybe Egwene’s free.

 

Overall score – 3 / 10. Just disastrously bad writing, from a book reader’s perspective. It may hook a new audience, though, so good luck to them on that front.

 

 

[flinn]

34 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

There is no particular reason to assume that they do not have those same "foundations" in the show.  Rand obviously does with the bow in the show.  Moreover, if you watch how Rand moves with the sword in episode 8 there are signs of additional training. 

 

Points to the differences between "not shown", "not shown but implied", and "not shown yet but still possible" for these bookish elements.

 

Obviously, the actor playing Rand would have drilled/practiced a bit with the sword for episode 8 in their prep phase so the motion being more "natural" stems as much from that as it does anything else.   So, he would show improvement over time as a result of that regardless of if they show it on screen.  

 

 

 

We can argue about whether the flame and the void was visually represented in the archery scenes in Episode 7.  I'd say they were.

 

One under appreciated aspect of episode 8 is that the show clearly referenced Rand's need to learn the sword in his conversation with Ishy.   That may serve as the foundation to show him training with the sword in season 2.  It runs parallel to his need to learn to channel from the books.   

 

The difference here is that in the books there was more time to show small bits of training but screen time on the show is more limited.  

 

 

 

By the end of the episode, two of the boys are shown to have killed a trolloc.  Rand is shown reflexively drawing his bow on the Quarry Road.  Rand is shown reflexively drawing and firing his bow at a trolloc during the farmhouse scene.   Rand recovers from being thrown across the room in the farmhouse to kill the Trolloc from behind.  Perrin is shown going mental on a Trolloc with an axe.

 

Basically, the show showed them being combat capable at a similar level just like the books did.   Mat really doesn't do much combat-wise (at least as far as I can recall) until he gets healed from the dagger and has the quarterstaff scene at the tower.  

 

Do they have room to develop additional capabilities?  I'd say yes.   But, thematically the ways things are setup for season two, they have a lot more reasons to do that following episode 8 then they did before episode 8.  So, I don't see it as them lessening the boys as much as I see them not having the need (or space) to do those things yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 But they had Lan and Steppin training. Made sure they had time for that.

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, flinn said:

 But they had Lan and Steppin training. Made sure they had time for that.

 

Not sure exactly what your point is?

 

Two "professional" characters doing forms together while talking is significant how?  They could have had that conversation sitting at the fire roasting marshmellows and it fits with the episode structure.  Was there a natural place to include Lan giving the boys lessons? Keep in mind that you would have to lose another scene where something else might have been accomplished.

 

I can think of only or two places where it would have reasonably taken place and you would have to lose some of Rand's reveal to probably make it work.

 

 

[Gypsum]

42 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Storyline 5: the Seanchan. They looked incredible, the Damane look terrifying, and thanks to high school wave mechanics, no on in Randland will ever have to worry about them. Because that 80’ tsunami is going to reflect off the cliff 100’ behind that little girl and obliterate the Corenne. Oops. I thought originally there was a town against the base of the cliffs, but nope, just rocks. Same scene with a small village and a harbour would have been incredible. As it is, Mat needs a new wife. Maybe Egwene’s free.

 

I agree with all of your review, but this paragraph just made my night better. ? Thanks for that. I did laugh out loud.

[KakitaOCU]

44 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Yes let’s be frank…People calling those that disagree with the show as the dark one or darkfriends is outrageously offensive. Particularly since the dark one is inspired by Islamic and Judeo-Christian demons / Satan… you are going to say this is nowhere near the same as being called a sellout? Come on…and it simultaneously implies they are right by default without having to actually argue points, because what’s the point in arguing with a “darkfriend”? They’re darkfriends. Both of these otherise. Let’s not pretend one is tongue in cheek though. It’s just as sanctimonious and condescending.  

My distinction is in if there's any type of humorous tie to the facts.

The insults towards the book purists are wrong and shouldn't happen but work on the premise of drawing parallels in behavior.

The insults towards the show fans are wrong and shouldn't happen and work on trying to make them less relevant or less valid than the book purists.

The difference between "Hey, you're factually acting kind of like this bad guy group" and "Hey, you're a lesser fan and your opinion isn't valid or real." is clear.

[Guest Testeria]

11 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

to ensure the non book reader understands things

 

I can assure You that he failed miserably with that. For someone who do not read the books this is hot mess of randomness, I can't even tell what is part of the world but not explained and what is just sloppy writing.

 

 

[Yojimbo]

57 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Establishing a specific magical item tied to a specific place doesn't really explain doing it without any such trappings later.

Now, if we had seen the prologue adapted, seen LTT travel from his home to what becomes Dragonmount, then we have justification for Rand doing it later.

Either way, this also reinforces the aspect that Rand does not "Fight" in the way most think.  He'll forget this over the next 7 seasons and have to relearn it for the end.

Yeah, but they don't explicitly state that this is a specific item tied to a specific place, do they?  (Honestly, I may have just missed it, so if I did, my bad).   Viewers saw her transported from one place to another.   Maybe they get that it was done using the Ter'Agnreal, but since he is supposed to be the most powerful channeler alive why couldn't he just do it without the Ter'Angreal?  It wouldn't be any worse than them showing Nynaeve healing dozens of people strewn about a cave with superhuman abilities, would it?

[nsmallw]

57 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Yes let’s be frank…People calling those that disagree with the show as the dark one or darkfriends is outrageously offensive. Particularly since the dark one is inspired by Islamic and Judeo-Christian demons / Satan… you are going to say this is nowhere near the same as being called a sellout? Come on…and it simultaneously implies they are right by default without having to actually argue points, because what’s the point in arguing with a “darkfriend”? They’re darkfriends. Both of these otherise. Let’s not pretend one is tongue in cheek though. It’s just as sanctimonious and condescending.  
 

 

*Both of these insults are ridiculous to me. We’re all fans here. Thinking differently doesn’t make anyone “not a fan”. It’s all Ad Hominem and Straw Man nonsense.*

Thanks for your input. If I in any way misquoted you or misrepresented your views, I apologize.

We all are passionate about WOT and my thoughts are based in fact that I want the series to succeed and want it to be worthy of RJ's legacy. Thanks for your constructive criticism of my post. 

[TheDreadReader]

8 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

I can assure You that he failed miserably with that. For someone who do not read the books this is hot mess of randomness, I can't even tell what is part of the world but not explained and what is just sloppy writing.

 

 

 

Perhaps for some.

 

The majority of non-readers that I've experienced the show with at this point have good questions but little in the way of confusion.

 

Mileages naturally vary.

 

[TheDreadReader]

14 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Yeah, but they don't explicitly state that this is a specific item tied to a specific place, do they?  (Honestly, I may have just missed it, so if I did, my bad).   Viewers saw her transported from one place to another.   Maybe they get that it was done using the Ter'Agnreal, but since he is supposed to be the most powerful channeler alive why couldn't he just do it without the Ter'Angreal?  It wouldn't be any worse than them showing Nynaeve healing dozens of people strewn about a cave with superhuman abilities, would it?

 

Why would they have to explicitly state it?  Some information can be implied by the visual context.  Take the concept of chekhov's gun.  If you show a gun over the fireplace and then show the flash of a gunshot while never showing another gun then the implication allows you to make the connection between the two things.  But, if you also show a gun on the coffee table that same implication isn't as allowable.

 

That said.  If you wanted to show Rand travelling then they could have included someone leaving via gateway in the cold open and that would be a way to introduce traveling in a way that would make sense to the viewer.

 

(Adding this)

 

Nyneave's "healing" is built off the fact that they showed healing several times earlier.  It's the same basic concept.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[KakitaOCU]

12 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Yeah, but they don't explicitly state that this is a specific item tied to a specific place, do they?  (Honestly, I may have just missed it, so if I did, my bad).   Viewers saw her transported from one place to another.   Maybe they get that it was done using the Ter'Agnreal, but since he is supposed to be the most powerful channeler alive why couldn't he just do it without the Ter'Angreal?  It wouldn't be any worse than them showing Nynaeve healing dozens of people strewn about a cave with superhuman abilities, would it?

They don't explicitly say "This is a Ter'angreal that allows traveling and or access to a dreamshard."  They do make a point to draw your eyes to it in one episode before using it in the next and Moraine only travels to Siuan using that specific device built into a stone wall.

[TheSmurf]

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

My distinction is in if there's any type of humorous tie to the facts.

The insults towards the book purists are wrong and shouldn't happen but work on the premise of drawing parallels in behavior.

The insults towards the show fans are wrong and shouldn't happen and work on trying to make them less relevant or less valid than the book purists.

The difference between "Hey, you're factually acting kind of like this bad guy group" and "Hey, you're a lesser fan and your opinion isn't valid or real." is clear.

Or its just a hypocritical stance to justify one over the other. 

 

Why don't we just... Not call each other names. 

[Yojimbo]

17 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

They don't explicitly say "This is a Ter'angreal that allows traveling and or access to a dreamshard."  They do make a point to draw your eyes to it in one episode before using it in the next and Moraine only travels to Siuan using that specific device built into a stone wall.

While that is true, I think that if the effect looked similar the audience would be able to make the connection that what Moiriane needed that Ter'angreal to do, the DR (who is supposed to be the most powerful being alive) can do without it.  JMO.

 

Edited to add: With regards to Nynaeve, yes, they established healing in other scenes, but what she did was like a bonfire (or a "raging sun")  compared to a candle.   Why can't Rand have that kind of moment too?  They established a form of traveling using the ter'angreal, and he simply did it without it.  Again, JMO that the audience would be able to make that connection.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Yojimbo

[Skipp]

35 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

My distinction is in if there's any type of humorous tie to the facts.

The insults towards the book purists are wrong and shouldn't happen but work on the premise of drawing parallels in behavior.

The insults towards the show fans are wrong and shouldn't happen and work on trying to make them less relevant or less valid than the book purists.

The difference between "Hey, you're factually acting kind of like this bad guy group" and "Hey, you're a lesser fan and your opinion isn't valid or real." is clear.

It doesn't help that a group of show haters started their own reddit and named themselves, unironically, Whitecloaks.

 

Which is where I assumed the tern bookcloaks came from.

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, TheSmurf said:

Or its just a hypocritical stance to justify one over the other. 

 

Why don't we just... Not call each other names. 

Except I'm not justifying one behavior?  I specifically said I don't name call and don't approve of it either way.

I just take issue when people try to use the "Both sides bad" argument when it's not the same scale.

And as Skipp pointed out, the Whitecloak/BookCloak comes from a specific reddit, it wasn't invented as an insult.

[JaimAybara]

51 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

My distinction is in if there's any type of humorous tie to the facts.

The insults towards the book purists are wrong and shouldn't happen but work on the premise of drawing parallels in behavior.

The insults towards the show fans are wrong and shouldn't happen and work on trying to make them less relevant or less valid than the book purists.

The difference between "Hey, you're factually acting kind of like this bad guy group" and "Hey, you're a lesser fan and your opinion isn't valid or real." is clear.

It is a tool to create guilt by association. Just as often without proof as with, which is peak irony to me since that is the accusation being levied.
 

You’re a shill/sellout = you’re a shill / sellout 

 

you’re a darkfriend = you’re an evil sellout as a darkfriend essentially selling their soul for power. 

 

you’re the dark one = you’re Satan…

 

You’re a whitecloak = you’re a dogmatic zealot (which the fandom often likens to two horrific groups). So, I fail to see the humor here. What is it? Tee-hee I’m going to say that you are like the Spanish Inquisition, but I don’t actually want to say it? Not sure if it’s funny. Definitely hyperbolic. I just see irony when the accusations come from those who are often exhibiting the same behavior though. 
 

Regardless, this is getting into semantics, we can most certainly agree both of those extreme groups often behave in a self righteous fashion. I’m merely saying the one using “clever” book terms will often just wildly throw around these terms in an attempt to label all of their opposition with a book slur and associate them with negatives for future encounters; this is to immediately discredit anything they have to say. 
 

It just looks like this to me: 

Edited December 27, 2021 by JaimAybara
Additional edits

[TheSmurf]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Establishing a specific magical item tied to a specific place doesn't really explain doing it without any such trappings later.

The show from the word go, shows people having the magical ability. There is nothing to show that objects might have magical properties. 

 

Until they did. Sort of (in the case of the whatever it was that happened in Moraine's bedroom) 

 

I genuinely don't understand why a non - book reader couldn't accept magic being used to create a portal, in a magical world. They've been accepting all the other magic being shown thus far.

 

And this is irrespective of our opinion of the EOTW book ending. Just about 'is Traveling in this world unbelievable, and why?'

[WhiteVeils]

I saw this comment on a youtube video from a user named Simon and found it really insightful and wanted to share it and expand it. (Comment here: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPl7xKv1GL8")

Even though Episode 8 looks like a victory, in actuality EVERYONE fails in Episode 8, and that is the point.

Rand fails to destroy the Dark One, instead cracking the seal on his prison.
Moiraine's plan to bring the Dragon Reborn and reseal the Dark One's tomb or kill the Dragon before he joins the Dark One fails, with her losing her power, revealing the identity of the Dragon Reborn to the Dark One, almost losing him, breaking the Seal, and then actually losing the Dragon Reborn completely, who she has searched so hard for, as he walks away.
Suian was tricked by Ishamael, trying to strike thinking they were strong and the Dark One was weak, but instead exposing just how weak and ignorant the Aes Sedai were as well as being played.   She was hasty, and acted rashly. Now they don't even really know the Dark One's strength while he knows their weakness.
Lan fails to protect both Moiraine and Nynaeve.
Nynaeve loses Rand, gets her power manipulated/used by someone not even a full Aes Sedai, who almost burns her out entirely for nothing, because the battle was over.
Egwene fails to save the day in the battle, needing Nynaeve to save her and feeling weak, not even knowing enough to get out of the circle.
The defenses of the city of Fal Dara failed and it was only by coincidence that the city was not completely taken over by the Trollocs.  Agelmar failed to hold the gap and Amelisa failed to restrain herself from the One Power and almost destroyed two Ta'veran in the process.
Perrin fails to act by falling to indecision, failing to protect the Horn or Loial. 
And though he's not there, Mat would have gotten stabbed by the dagger, thus failing to keep himself from falling to the Dagger again.

EVERYONE fails.  

You got to work hard to get that much losing to look like some sort of victory but they do pull it off.  I kind of hope early next season we get to see that more clearly.

[DigificWriter]

@WhiteVeils Reading this makes me realize that Rafe and his team pulled out a Revenge of the Sith/The Empire Strikes Back/The Last Jedi ending, and it makes me even more excited to see what happens next.

[Guest Testeria]

7 hours ago, CanisNoir said:

Agalmar went out like a boss,

 

No. He went out like an complete idiot just letting his men killed for no reason. If not for the women he would accomplished nothing at all. And he showed disrespect to his ancestors (armor), his sister, aes sedai and common sense. It was kind of Mr Bean moment if You ask me (it is not a problem for me, i do not have any feelings about him - I'm still reading the first book of the series).

 

 

7 hours ago, CanisNoir said:

I really do believe a lot of what I feel were short comings of the show could have been fixed with two more episodes giving the characters some time to really interact with each other. Getting through the Eye so quickly, though, gives me hope that we'll get to see some of that in future seasons.

 

They could be easily fixed with given time, but I'm pretty sure it was all intentional.

 

[RextheDog]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

And though he's not there, Mat would have gotten stabbed by the dagger, thus failing to keep himself from falling to the Dagger again.

 

 

 

yep, i rated the episode, was suprised to see so much backlash, lots of suttle things happened that kept the lore going, although in a different manner to the books.

 

the circle was perhaps the weakest moment structurally, but it depends what they do with it....if they go on to reveal the trollocs were just sent in as cannon fodder then its not that big a deal to me........infact it will feed onto the AS arrogance....a simple line about how small the force was, and how weak an effort it was (lets just say a forsaken suggests the army wasnt even 5000 strong and half turned back after getting through the pass as the mission was acomplished or something like that) takes this mary sue moment and puts it on its head.

 

rand not even breaking sweat was a good indicator as well....also his decision to 'leave' the TR and Eggy...well done.

 

however, your quote above about Mat seems a fair stretch, 'if a character did this instead of that he would have lost, ipso facto, yet another loss'......errrr....no.

[RextheDog]

37 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

No. He went out like an complete idiot just letting his men killed for no reason. If not for the women he would accomplished nothing at all. And he showed disrespect to his ancestors (armor), his sister, aes sedai and common sense. It was kind of Mr Bean moment if You ask me (it is not a problem for me, i do not have any feelings about him - I'm still reading the first book of the series).

 

 

 

 

 

 

what were his options;

 

a)defend the gap by maning the only structure between it and the blight

b)....