tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

3 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Really enjoying the discussion. Just gonna leave this here because it makes me chuckle:

 

HoW cAn ShE fIgHt?! ShE's PrEgNaNt!

Meanwhile, Boromir fights off a small army of orcs while impregnated with multiple 1/2" arrow shafts.

You missed a great opportunity to point out that both of these warriors were penetrated by shafts..

See the detailed discussion in K J Parker's "the proof house" regarding the relative combat merits of penetrating and slashing wounds - deep penetrating trauma is not an instant or quick kill unless it ruptures on of the major blood vessels - e.g. femoral or carotid  artery).  It is more likely that a relatively superficial deep trauma (such as any of Boromir's) will eventually result in death (hence the true view that these wounds are more deadly in the medium/long term than superficial slashes - see the statement to Lt Bush near the end of "Lieutenant Hornblower" by C. S. Forester by the surgeon as to how he survived multiple surface wounds).   The goal in combat is not a kill in 2-3 mins but putting your enemy in a position where they can no longer threaten you as fast as possible - for that a highly traumatic and painful wound is your best bet.  This is especially true where muscle or bone damage prevents the use of one or more limbs.  

The chief defence of stabs is they are quicker - the experts response is that if so you are taking too much back swing.  This classic mistake is made by all the companions in this scene - swords swung way overhead, behind them, relying only on armor for defense.  Contrast with Tam fighting Narg in E1 - quick slashes to the gut returning to a centered stance with his sword always between him and the trolloc - only injured when forced into a direct match of strength due to the tight quarters.

An intensive study of the critical hit tables in the antique rolemaster RPG pays dividends.  

[VooDooNut]

13 minutes ago, dwn said:

Tam still hasn't used a sword or been in a real fight in 20 odd years. So we don't get to see him cut down several trollocs, almost certainly due to time/budget constraints--that hardly means someone is trying to make him less "cool". The important part of that scene is that Tam 1) has a sword and 2) gets injured.

I agree. It's clear these episodes are absolutely stuffed to the gills with content. I wish every short scene could be twice as long but then the episodes would be two hours long each (not that I would complain).

 

9 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

See the detailed discussion in K J Parker's "the proof house" regarding the relative combat merits of penetrating and slashing wounds - deep penetrating trauma is not an instant or quick kill unless it ruptures on of the major blood vessels - e.g. femoral or carotid  artery).  It is more likely that a relatively superficial deep trauma (such as any of Boromir's) will eventually result in death (hence the true view that these wounds are more deadly in the medium/long term than superficial slashes - see the statement to Lt Bush near the end of "Lieutenant Hornblower" by C. S. Forester by the surgeon as to how he survived multiple surface wounds).   The goal in combat is not a kill in 2-3 mins but putting your enemy in a position where they can no longer threaten you as fast as possible - for that a highly traumatic and painful wound is your best bet.  This is especially true where muscle or bone damage prevents the use of one or more limbs.  

The chief defence of stabs is they are quicker - the experts response is that if so you are taking too much back swing.  This classic mistake is made by all the companions in this scene - swords swung way overhead, behind them, relying only on armor for defense.  Contrast with Tam fighting Narg in E1 - quick slashes to the gut returning to a centered stance with his sword always between him and the trolloc - only injured when forced into a direct match of strength due to the tight quarters.

An intensive study of the critical hit tables in the antique rolemaster RPG pays dividends.  

This was a fun read. ? The point of my original post was to show the equally fantastical absurdity of both scenes within the context of fantasy-based television show/movie. I'm no surgeon, but if it was even slightly possible any of those arrows pierced the heart or lungs it would be tough for anyone to continue fighting after that. But again, that's where suspension of disbelief pays off in both WOT and LOTR. I don't think a lack of concrete realism detracts from my enjoyment of the show.

Edited December 18, 2021 by VooDooNut
typo

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, EmreY said:

5 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

I haven't read every page of this thread, so I may have missed it.  But is nobody even a little miffed at how accepting Rand is that he is the DR?  I mean, he only fought against that idea for the next two books until the Stone fell and he held Callandor.    Having him be this accepting basically nullifies his entire motivations for what he does for the next two books.  But whatever I guess.   

 

I always thought that next two books were about him doing his best to fulfil some prophecy or other, be universally accepted as the DR, and get to the point of being able to do all that he feels he needs to put together to confront He Who Shall Not Be Named, before he goes stark raving mad?

Two key differences book to show here:

In the book Rand has been taunted in his dreams for weeks that the Aes Sedai will try to use him as a false dragon (Davian, Urien Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, Logain each mentioned and Thom confirms their significance) and begins to accept this (book and show "what happens in your dreams can be more significant than what happens awake") creating a real barrier to accepting he is the one (Neo style).  None of that in the show.

In the show he is backed into a corner that does not exist in the books - the apparent certainty of his friends deaths if he denies he is the dragon and flees from the responsibility traps him into this early acceptance.

 

In book 3 he is till doubting it himself - the fulfillment of grabbing calandor is more for his own belief than to prove himself to others.  The early books indicate the only generally agreed prophesy is the sword that cannot be touched / fall of the stone of tear bit.

Edited December 18, 2021 by bringbackthomsmoustache
PS - If Moiraine and Siuan were able to lie I would almost think they invented that whole "everyone else will die" lark precisely to force the true dragon to reveal themselves.

[JaimAybara]

18 minutes ago, dwn said:

Tam still hasn't used a sword or been in a real fight in 20 odd years. So we don't get to see him cut down several trollocs, almost certainly due to time/budget constraints--that hardly means someone is trying to make him less "cool". The important part of that scene is that Tam 1) has a sword and 2) gets injured.

What? Seriously? A blademaster actually looking like a blademaster as he was portrayed in the book isn’t important? I would argue it is equally important as displaying the prowess of the Aiel. But agree to disagree, plus what’s done is done. 

[dwn]

5 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

What? Seriously? A blademaster actually looking like a blademaster as he was portrayed in the book isn’t important? I would argue it is equally important as displaying the prowess of the Aiel. But agree to disagree, plus what’s done is done. 

The whole concept of a blademaster takes a fair bit of exposition to cover, and ultimately has next to zero impact on the plot. If they're going to keep it at all, it makes sense to leave it till Lan starts properly training Rand, which I expect will be part of season 2.

[Jaysen Gore]

25 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

See the detailed discussion in K J Parker's "the proof house" regarding the relative combat merits of penetrating and slashing wounds - deep penetrating trauma is not an instant or quick kill unless it ruptures on of the major blood vessels - e.g. femoral or carotid  artery).  It is more likely that a relatively superficial deep trauma (such as any of Boromir's) will eventually result in death (hence the true view that these wounds are more deadly in the medium/long term than superficial slashes - see the statement to Lt Bush near the end of "Lieutenant Hornblower" by C. S. Forester by the surgeon as to how he survived multiple surface wounds).   The goal in combat is not a kill in 2-3 mins but putting your enemy in a position where they can no longer threaten you as fast as possible - for that a highly traumatic and painful wound is your best bet.  This is especially true where muscle or bone damage prevents the use of one or more limbs.  

The chief defence of stabs is they are quicker - the experts response is that if so you are taking too much back swing.  This classic mistake is made by all the companions in this scene - swords swung way overhead, behind them, relying only on armor for defense.  Contrast with Tam fighting Narg in E1 - quick slashes to the gut returning to a centered stance with his sword always between him and the trolloc - only injured when forced into a direct match of strength due to the tight quarters.

An intensive study of the critical hit tables in the antique rolemaster RPG pays dividends.  

wow did my joke go over someone's head ?

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

27 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

See the detailed discussion in K J Parker's "the proof house" regarding the relative combat merits of penetrating and slashing wounds - deep penetrating trauma is not an instant or quick kill unless it ruptures on of the major blood vessels - e.g. femoral or carotid  artery).  It is more likely that a relatively superficial deep trauma (such as any of Boromir's) will eventually result in death (hence the true view that these wounds are more deadly in the medium/long term than superficial slashes - see the statement to Lt Bush near the end of "Lieutenant Hornblower" by C. S. Forester by the surgeon as to how he survived multiple surface wounds).   The goal in combat is not a kill in 2-3 mins but putting your enemy in a position where they can no longer threaten you as fast as possible - for that a highly traumatic and painful wound is your best bet.  This is especially true where muscle or bone damage prevents the use of one or more limbs.  

The chief defence of stabs is they are quicker - the experts response is that if so you are taking too much back swing.  This classic mistake is made by all the companions in this scene - swords swung way overhead, behind them, relying only on armor for defense.  Contrast with Tam fighting Narg in E1 - quick slashes to the gut returning to a centered stance with his sword always between him and the trolloc - only injured when forced into a direct match of strength due to the tight quarters.

An intensive study of the critical hit tables in the antique rolemaster RPG pays dividends.  

Expand  

wow did my joke go over someone's head ?

I was more responding to the original point, I just prefer to not miss out existing replies if possible.  But then you probably knew that and your response was a further joke.  

"Nothing goes over my head - my pedantry is too fast" to misquote Drax

[JimGalaxy]

... re-watching tonight. A line I didn't catch yesterday cracked me *up* ... Rand (looking confused, worried, and resigned): "Nothing an Aes Sedai says is optional". LOL

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Not force, momentum and grip.  They were running full speed in opposite directions and all of the resulting impact was applied well above his center of gravity while his feet were not in contact with the ground / on icy ground.  Try running into a bar at shoulder height and see if you fall over backwards.

Remedial practice at "heron wading in the rushes" for this companion if he had survived.

She had to overcome his forward momentum plus at least 50Kg of extra weight due to his much larger size and armour (50Kg is probably a significant under estimate). No way does she generate enough momentum to reverse his direction plus get him airborne.

 

The most likely result of her gripping his cloak in the manner shown in the show is her being pulled off her feet with him maybe slipping due to icy ground. 

 

If she was to pull down from directly behind she maybe could have unbalanced him into a fall but to have him pulled into the air in the opposite direction of his considerably larger mass is just completely implausible.

 

Your bar example only works if the bar is anchored or supported to something else.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Mailman

[Arie]

VooDoo is right, this is starting to lean off-topic.

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

She had to overcome his forward momentum plus at least 50Kg of extra weight due to his much larger size and armour (50Kg is probably a significant under estimate). No way does she generate enough momentum to reverse his direction plus get him airborne.

 

The most likely result of her gripping his cloak in the manner shown in the show is her being pulled off her feet with him maybe slipping due to icy ground. 

 

If she was to pull down from directly behind she maybe could have unbalanced him into a fall but to have him pulled into the air in the opposite direction of his considerably larger mass is just completely implausible.

I am not saying she could reverse his overall direction, rather that the impulse applied at one end of his body (the neck) resulted in his body rotating from being perpendicular to the ground to being parallel to the ground - at which point he drops landing flat on his back.  

 

Pulling down is the worst way to drop someone as a human can remain standing under a burden of their own bodyweight or more.  Force applied in a direction that physics prevents you opposing with force of your own is the way to go.

[Mailman]

5 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I am not saying she could reverse his overall direction, rather that the impulse applied at one end of his body (the neck) resulted in his body rotating from being perpendicular to the ground to being parallel to the ground - at which point he drops landing flat on his back.  

 

Pulling down is the worst way to drop someone as a human can remain standing under a burden of their own bodyweight or more.  Force applied in a direction that physics prevents you opposing with force of your own is the way to go.

He is launched backwards into the air is the problem. In the scene she reverses his direction and pulls him into the air. Not Possible given weight differences and not even accounting for strength differences.

 

In regard to the pulling down you have to factor their forward momentum as you said its icy if he remains at standing height and their momentum is travelling in opposite directions as she drops low and pulls its far more likely to take him off his feet than leaping into the air and trying to lift his body weight off the ground.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Mailman

[VooDooNut]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

He is launched backwards into the air is the problem.

 

In regard to the pulling down you have to factor their forward momentum as you said its icy if he remains at standing height and their momentum is travelling in opposite directions as she drops low and pulls its far more likely to take him off his feet than leaping into the air and trying to lift his body weight off the ground.

We also shouldn't forget there was a Ta'veren present on the battlefield, so really anything could have happened. ?

Edited December 18, 2021 by VooDooNut
typo

[Chivalry]

10 hours ago, Meskell said:

The getting engaged on the day you find out the girl you really like has got a boyfriend is definitely a dick move. 
 

It was implied that his wife knew Egwene was first choice, which is why she had no time for Egwene and wouldn’t go to her initiation. 

Hadn't thought of it this way...that's a good observation.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Chivalry

[LoRd PyrO]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:13 PM, Maximillion said:

So disappointed in this. The story is just all wrong.

 

Pregnant woman killing that many soldiers. Look I get maiden of the spear etc.. but why go so over the top?

 

 Showing Rand channel in retrospect??? That’s just such a cop out. 
 

Another needless scene when so many have been cut turn the books… Lan bringing home his girlfriend for dinner?? 
 

The love triangle of Rand Egwene and Perrin? Seriously?

 

 Moraine asking for the reds to take Mat?

 

Fal Dara is a keep with hardly any people in it? 
 

 What has Rafe done? I weep.

 

 

 

I concur; it feels like Rafe is just using Wot to write his own story. And to think I waited decades to be THIS disappointed.... I'm still hopeful (silly me) that S2 redeems this fiasco

 

 

[Chivalry]

2 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

It always seemed more of an older brother type thing to me but definitely Lan & Rand had a sense of being kindred in spirit thing going on- though I tend to think season 2 will have some Lan, Rand & Perrin in Fal Dara. However, I do agree that it was a missed opportunity this season. This lack of subtle character beats is probably my main complaint about season 1. Another instance is in this episode is Agelmar not being fond of Aes Sedai- not a big deal but him being short with Moraine is a touch wrong because he would treat the Aes Sedai who has Lan as a warder with the utmost respect. However, Perrin's grunting during the EF4 conference was a totally spot on and subtle character beat so it's something i definitely think they can get better with as seasons progress

This bothered me as well...a completely unnecessary change, unless the point is to show another delusional male in a leadership capacity.

[Sabio]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

He is launched backwards into the air is the problem. In the scene she reverses his direction and pulls him into the air. Not Possible given weight differences and not even accounting for strength differences.

 

In regard to the pulling down you have to factor their forward momentum as you said its icy if he remains at standing height and their momentum is travelling in opposite directions as she drops low and pulls its far more likely to take him off his feet than leaping into the air and trying to lift his body weight off the ground.

She was pregnant, so it was like two people pulling him.  She also had a Ta'veren in her belly so the pattern also tugged at him.

[Mailman]

3 minutes ago, Sabio said:

She was pregnant, so it was like two people pulling him.  She also had a Ta'veren in her belly so the pattern also tugged at him.

Lol yeah that extra 5kg of un assisting belly weight of course makes all the difference, my bad.

[EmreY]

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

To everyone commenting on Shaiel fighting while pregnant I would just like to bring up the general discussion of this topic from Lezbi Nerdy's discord.

 

A handful of women from the server told us how pregnancy effected each of them.  What they could do and what they couldn't.  How their pregnancies differed from child to child sometimes depending on how the child was positioned..  Some could walk around with no issues up until their due date, others were bed ridden a month before hand.  Others stay very athletic until the very end.  

 

So while, yes the fight during the cold open was, perhaps, unrealistic we know that different women are affected differently during pregnancy.  But no one in the served was offended by the scene.

 

Also never discount what adrenaline, combined with hormones, combined with a mother trying to protect their child.

 

4 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

This, but also, it's a fantasy show, right? Heroic character does heroic thing kinda fits the theme. I'm surprised this is really that controversial.

 

3 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Is it clear this is late stage labour?  Even if we view the part where she lowers the veil as a contraction it can be early stage while she is fighting and the birth is then brought on by the stabbing.

Not force, momentum and grip.  They were running full speed in opposite directions and all of the resulting impact was applied well above his center of gravity while his feet were not in contact with the ground / on icy ground.  Try running into a bar at shoulder height and see if you fall over backwards.

Remedial practice at "heron wading in the rushes" for this companion if he had survived.

 

The contractions seem to be quite strong and quite close to each other.  Yes, the Dragon wants out soon.

 

And the fantasy element aside (I do like the comparison with Boromir) women have been known to break things during labour - their hips, their husband's hands, that sort of thing - and still manage to give birth.  But the fantasy element is needed because I am unaware of women giving birth while taking part in a boxing match, for example.

 

I'm totally fine with this scene.

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, Chivalry said:

This bothered me as well...a completely unnecessary change, unless the point is to show another delusional male in a leadership capacity.

Or two misandrist females undermining a respected military commander out of blind prejudice - it all depends on your point of view.  Try casting a modern world scene with the roles reversed and this would appear to be pure misogynist sexism.

[Arthellion]

Thinking through Lack of Lan and Rand…I think we will see that start of season 2.

 

with only episodes this season has been packed with things. While ymmv on those choices, I think moving Lan and Rands relationship to season 2 works. Since also we’ll likely be getting Morgase and Elayne in season 2.

[VooDooNut]

52 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Or two misandrist females undermining a respected military commander out of blind prejudice - it all depends on your point of view.  Try casting a modern world scene with the roles reversed and this would appear to be pure misogynist sexism.

I think Agelmar plays the fool in this scene, but not without purpose. For one, he comes off as a proud protector of his people. He is confident he can withstand any advance from the Blight and is offended at the very idea an Aes Sedai would need to warn/advise/whatever him. I think he is also partly afraid. He knows they can't really withstand the onslaught much longer, but doesn't know what else to do other than continue fighting. Basically, he is super on edge and lashes out at Moiraine uncharacteristically. If times were better he would have been much nicer, I'm sure. That's what I got out of it anyway.

 

But... while we're on the topic of this scene, Moiraine absolutely knocks it out of the park! This is probably her closest interpretation of Ian McKellen's Gandolf, especially The Two Towers scene when Gandolf frees Théoden from Saruman's control. She's confident, relatively patient, and somewhat sympathetic for Agelmar's point of view, but ultimately adamant that she informs him of the looming danger.

Edited December 18, 2021 by VooDooNut
typo

[dwn]

Although it's never shown in Shienar/Arafel/Kandor/Saldaea, you'd think some of the borderlanders would be resentful over the Aes Sedai abandoning Malkier. (We know the Tower did send aid, but was too late--that's not common knowledge, however.)

[RhienneAgain]

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Is it clear this is late stage labour?  Even if we view the part where she lowers the veil as a contraction it can be early stage while she is fighting and the birth is then brought on by the stabbing.

Not force, momentum and grip.  They were running full speed in opposite directions and all of the resulting impact was applied well above his center of gravity while his feet were not in contact with the ground / on icy ground.  Try running into a bar at shoulder height and see if you fall over backwards.

Remedial practice at "heron wading in the rushes" for this companion if he had survived.

Birth isn't brought on to that extent by being stabbed. Labour is a process governed by hormones and while trauma can rarely initiate contractions (in fact labour is more normally induced (medically initiated) following trauma due to concerns over the baby's or mother's health) it can't magically make the baby appear three minutes later. Tigraine was clearly already in labour - being stabbed at that point wouldn't speed labour up. In fact the mother being in stress (physical or mental, or both) is more likely to delay labour than start it or progress it as it reduces the maternal production of oxytocin which is required to contract the uterus.

Edited December 18, 2021 by RhienneAgain

[fra85uk]

In the extra, they show how the blood snow has been filmed, it is very interesting.

 

It is effectively the best scene so far of the series and it is a fantastic fight scene for me. Yes, she is pregnant but still this is the mother of the DR: she is exceptional. That scene is a 10/10 and i am still very skeptic  about the show but the cold open is excellent.

 

Btw, post-lockdown filming seems to be a Great improvement, still writing is somewhat problematic.