tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Therese Sedai]

5 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Calm down Ishy. Don’t get your knickers in a twist. ?

[Jaysen Gore]

8 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Well, I'd suggest Tuesdays with Mori, but I think that's taken...

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

My understanding of much of the pushback against show detractors has been that we aren't ignoring the books enough.

I'm honestly not following. I think the argument is that lack of fidelity to the books is not the be-all, end-all metric by which to judge.

 

6 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Critiquing via comparison is just another means of critique, no more valid or invalid than anything else. It's not the end all be all method of determining the show's quality, but it is a vector across which the show stands to be measured. 

Agreed.

 

7 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

So people who like the show get to say, "Wasn't it cool when X thing from the book happened on screen" but detractors are largely dismissed for expressing the opposite sentiment. 

Yeah but the two groups aren't in the same relative positions. It's easier to react to something than it is to react to nothing. And fans of the books who also like the show are obviously going to gush over the portions they like.

 

I completely understand that people get mad that certain scenes from the books weren't in the show. I completely understand that people feel like certain changes are unnecessary and detract from the story. But telling you why they don't detract from my enjoyment isn't the same thing as dismissing you - it's just disagreeing with the opinion you've expressed.

 

11 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

This invitation for show detractors to disentangle their feelings about the show from their relationship to the original books is something that show lovers throw out frequently but largely don't adhere to themselves. 

Because they like the things they are seeing that are also in the books? Isn't that ... expected? If you're generally enjoying the show and not bothered by the changes, there's no reason to disentangle any feelings. If you're having a hard time enjoying the show, disentangling feelings about the books is a useful tool to try to change the filter for your experience. It's a one way street.

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

24 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Yeah.  If Ishy shows up in the last episode there are gonna be a lot of people saying "who is this guy again?"  

Maybe they can pull it off similar to "The One Who Remains" from Loki. That turned out way better than I was expecting. But, you're right, typically, these last second villains are a bit of a let down. I'm intrigued to see what they do at the Eye.

[Masha]

18 hours ago, lsm said:

was there any hints on how Padan Fain got into the ways? Was it one of the forsaken we saw in the lightning flash in the ways where Loial was figuring out the guide post?

That part and Lan's line are taken straight from the book. And the book didn't bother explaining how either. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Masha

[Therese Sedai]

51 minutes ago, Vartija said:

I assume she would have sensed another woman channelling. If she saw what we saw, ie. a trolloc magically bouncing off of Rand & Egwene, then she must have realized that a man channelled. 

Oh derp. Of course! Thank you. That flew right over my head. 

[Vartija]

5 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Oh derp. Of course! Thank you. That flew right over my head. 

Ehh, it wasn't such a flawless explanation as I thought.? 

[Skipp]

44 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Well I just completed my first watch.   I had internet issues which detracted from my experience but here is my initial assessment without reading anybody else's posts.

 

The Bad

Lord Anglemar was complete plot foolishness in his rewrite.  Nobody who is defending the rest of the world from shadowspawn is going to turn down help from a known, friendly, Aes Sedai and her revered warder the Dai shan. Makes no sense in any universe.  Should have stuck to the original plot of him trying to convince them to fight at TW instead of gallivanting off on a fools errand in the blight.

 

i don't know about this.  Aglemar is very respectful oncc he confirms that Moiraine isn't there to advise.  As we see in AMOL

Spoiler

Aglemar doesn't take people questioning his motives or tactics gracefully.  Yes he was being compelled but the compulsion was only to make the incremental mistakes he was making.  I do believe his reactions to Lan questioning his orders

is the same type of attitude we see on display in this episode.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

17 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because they like the things they are seeing that are also in the books? Isn't that ... expected? If you're generally enjoying the show and not bothered by the changes, there's no reason to disentangle any feelings. If you're having a hard time enjoying the show, disentangling feelings about the books is a useful tool to try to change the filter for your experience. It's a one way street.

I would tend to agree. If the goal is to enjoy the series, then the show-lovers certainly have nothing to disentangle. 

 

However, in the context of "discussing the show on its own merits" I do think that both sides would certainly need to do some disentangling. 

 

Those who love the show would need to ask themselves, "How much of my enjoyment of this show is tied in with the dopamine hits I get from seeing something I recognize portrayed on screen?" 

 

Show detractors would have to honestly assess themselves from the opposite point. 

 

However, I think that the discussion here on Dragonmount is unique because we are all fans of the books. So removing that aspect of the conversation is sort of counterproductive because the whole reason we're here is to talk with other fans. 

 

My point is that I don't necessarily like the idea of discussing the show entirely on its own merits. As much as we're invited to do that (by the showrunners, Sarah Nakamura, and even Brandon Sanderson), I think it's much less interesting than discussing the show in relation to the books. 

 

I'm rambling. 

[VooDooNut]

Really enjoying the discussion. Just gonna leave this here because it makes me chuckle:

 

HoW cAn ShE fIgHt?! ShE's PrEgNaNt!

Meanwhile, Boromir fights off a small army of orcs while impregnated with multiple 1/2" arrow shafts.

[Lurker_Fan]

Well that was a kick arse episode. That open with Tigraine, MAN! And I'm so glad the we can get past the dragon controversy now. I thought the Perrin/Rand/Egwene thing was a little odd. Maybe that will go away. Best episode BY FAR.

[Seraphine]

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Here's where I think this is going: Perrin clearly blames himself for Laila's death. He loved her deeply and felt guilty about having feelings for anyone other than Laila. At the same time, he is also very fond of Egwene and so Machin Shin is using that to feed into that blame about Laila's death. "You don't love Laila enough" is the thing that is eating at him. In my opinion, it's a way to set up Faile. Perrin's early arc will be about him coming to terms with his guilt and being able to love again.

 

The "love triangle" isn't a thing. Rand acknowledges this to Egwene. (And can we take a moment to reflect on how well Rand played the petulant jealousy thing - foreshadowing some coming behavior changes). But it's put out there as a thing to help the audience see how much Perrin is protective of Egwene but also struggles with the idea that he was somehow unfaithful to Laila. At least that's my take.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me. I was trying to express (though I probably didn't do a great job) that I didn't think there was an actual love triangle (it's clear that Egwene and Rand love each other and that nothing has or will happen between Egwene and Perrin). But I was trying to understand the motivation for adding this emotional dimension to Perrin's character. But this is an explanation for it that makes sense to me given what we know of his character arc--thanks! ?

[VooDooNut]

It's also fair to say we can't take everything Machin Shin says in this episode as gospel. Pretty sure Moiraine is told that she's dooming everyone to death at TEOTW because of her heroism, but....*checks notes* there seem to be multiple books that take place after TEOTW So I guess Machin Shin wasn't being 100% truthful. *gasp*

[Seraphine]

8 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

Well he is spending a lot of time with her, so it would be only natural, especially as she was there when he had the moment to share he killed his wife, to worry that his feelings could change.  Friends have become lovers and all that.  Emotions are not easy to fully understand - which is one of the things I really liked about the books was the emotional arc of the characters and the struggles in not allowing their emotions to control or define them (or with Rand the reverse). 

 

People have doubts on their wedding days, but doesnt mean they do not want to get married.   That was how I interpreted it.    One of Perrins abilities that he grows is his ability to sense emotions (guess we'll see if this is developed in the show) so maybe that is an inkling that after reflection he's sensed after the Ways that no I am not in love with Egwene.  

 

But guess we'll WAFO.     

 

This all makes sense to me, and I do think that Perrin loved Laila and that nothing is going to happen between him and Egwene, but I think I was questioning why they made it an explicit tension for his character. I like Elder Haman's explanation as to why they might have spent time on this (even though I still don't love it). ?

[Seraphine]

I wanted to make a comment on the discussion of Lan and Nynaeve's relationship since this is something that is really working for me. I agree with previous commenters that it doesn't feel that much more accelerated than the books (because we get Nynaeve's internal commitment to Lan in Accepted test, Lan giving her his ring, his discussion of not wanting to make her a widow which indicates his care for her). Yes, they have sex in the TV show much earlier in the books, but it fits with how the show is presenting sex and sexuality, and doesn't necessarily mean there's not a relationship journey ahead for them (see my comments below).

 

I also agree with the commenter (sorry I forget who, and I don't want to reread all the comments...) ? who noted that non-reader audience members need to understand their connection before they spend considerable time away from one another.

 

I also don't think just because they had sex and we see the depth of their connection this early, that they're suddenly together and committed. Both of them in the scene comment on their respective duties (Lan's to Moiraine and their mission, and Nynaeve's to the other EF youth). It was clear to me from this that they're both grappling with the fact that they care for one another, but there's a lot of uncertainty about their long-term viability given their respective individual paths. I suspect this is how the long-term burn of their relationship will emerge. (I do think we're going to get a variation of the long-term relationship build in the TV show; it just won't be the exact same as the books. ? )

[dwn]

36 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

I would tend to agree. If the goal is to enjoy the series, then the show-lovers certainly have nothing to disentangle. 

 

However, in the context of "discussing the show on its own merits" I do think that both sides would certainly need to do some disentangling. 

 

Those who love the show would need to ask themselves, "How much of my enjoyment of this show is tied in with the dopamine hits I get from seeing something I recognize portrayed on screen?" 

 

Show detractors would have to honestly assess themselves from the opposite point. 

 

However, I think that the discussion here on Dragonmount is unique because we are all fans of the books. So removing that aspect of the conversation is sort of counterproductive because the whole reason we're here is to talk with other fans. 

 

My point is that I don't necessarily like the idea of discussing the show entirely on its own merits. As much as we're invited to do that (by the showrunners, Sarah Nakamura, and even Brandon Sanderson), I think it's much less interesting than discussing the show in relation to the books. 

 

I'm rambling. 

For production realities (editing, pacing, lighting, sets, actors, budget), I'm generally fairly forgiving, so long as the show meets a minimum quality. While WoT has clearly suffered from time/budget constraints, thus far it mostly exceeds that threshold for me. (Things like editing, lighting and design also have a subjective component.)

 

I also recognise that adaptations need to make plot and character changes to work with the new medium and audience. With this I tend to be more concerned with thematic elements and the "feel" of the material, rather than specific plot details. Sure it sucks when a favourite scene gets skipped or changed, but whatevs. Of course, any plot, lore or worldbuilding changes should be internally consistent.

 

Where people lose me is with comments like "character X did Y which they would never do so this is rubbish!" or "the showrunners hate the fans and disrespect the books and I'll never be happy again!!". Also, things like "Rand/Mat/Perrin/Lan have been diminished to make the women look good!!!" sound an awful lot like the old Rand vs. Egwene/Elayne flame wars, for those who remember them.

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, Arie said:

Hey guys, please stay on topic! Not sure on the nature of talking alcohol in a public forum, but if you want to talk about it, please take it to another thread.

yes, Mother.   ?

 

[Arie]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

yes, Mother.   ?

 

I should correct you with "Mistress" or "Sedai" but I'm never going to be against the Mother title. ?

 

Carry on. ^^

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

My understanding of much of the pushback against show detractors has been that we aren't ignoring the books enough.

 

Or, merely here are the books and here on the other hand is the show and keep them as separate categories.  Enjoy (or don't enjoy) as separate things.

 

Even the most ardent "defenders" of the show has stuff that they wish were included in the show and changes that they don't like.   

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[henfen]

This episode is what I've been waiting for.  Great first scene... I finally thought, "It got good". 

Like the Serenity Prayer says, I've accepted the things I can't change - accepted that the characters and storylines have been changed from the book, in a direction I wouldn't personally choose.  And having come to terms - paired with a powerful episode with a lot of canon material - I'm feeling a fondness and hope for the next episode and season.  Also, I realized that even though Rafe is from the US, I think I'm watching more of a European-produced show through my eyes of an American, and that may have been part of the difficulty I was having in seeing it as it was intended.  There are some cultural differences between the US and Europe that had clouded some of my vision.  I had a swell of emotion during the recap, seeing Suian apparently in love with Moiraine.  Obviously, this wasn't a part of the books, but since she is a prominent character, I think they could do her justice.  I've got to stay on this wave of not getting my hopes up and keeping my expectations low.  Their romance and arc is so far more believable and likeable than Rand and Egwene's - again, who never really were that intimate in the books.

 

This episode's highlights, for me:

Tigraine/Shaiel.  Eff' yeah, Maiden of the Spear!  Young Tam was great.

Min!  Her energy is there - I am excited for more of her. 

It's more clear now that Moiraine doesn't really know what she thinks she does - a parting from how I perceived her in the books, but makes the episodes make more sense, since up til now, I more or less thought she was framing the narrative as truth. 

Daniel Henney... damn, son, well acted and what a hunk.  Great tenderness and tension in his scenes.  I think he is my new favorite character on the show.  Lan's backstory got some time, we learned about Bukama, and we got a bit of Borderlander culture.

 

Still wishing these elements were stronger:

Rand having better lines, and not being such a whiney baby (until the end of this episode, at least.  I liked his final scene)

I like the portrayal of Perrin but he needs more lines.  And... he loves Egwene?  Come on.

Nynaeve being more angry and less nervous/insecure.  Also, I liked that the EF5 all, I assumed, start off as virgins and inexperienced.  In the show, they are no longer puritanical about their sexuality, but I'm accepting this as one of the changes the producers wanted.  It's not canon, but it's typical of "Hollywood".

Machin Shin was not nearly as terrifying (originally with its talk of licking the sweet blood and screams and whatnot).  I get why they changed it, but hearing one's own doubts isn't nearly as scary as being turned insane by a bloodthirsty lunatic swell of voices.

 

Best episode yet, for me, and psyched for the season finale next week!

Edited December 17, 2021 by henfen

[RhienneAgain]

Hmmm, another episode that's left me with mixed feelings. Think I'm moving in a slightly more positive direction now.

 

Liked

• The acting - across the board - this week. I feel like the actors have read the books and really 'get' the characters. Sometimes their expressions just so perfectly add something to the scene - Zoe Robins subtly projecting Nynaeve's uncertainty in herself, Egwene's self-confidence, Perrin's sense of 'being too big', Rand's innocence.
• I liked Lan's retelling of his story. Thought Henney really nailed Lan's character and the writing was good, too.
• Scenery - I liked the Ways and the Blight actually (maybe my expectations are low and being exceeded!?), and the Fal Dara interiors, too.
• Min! Totally different from how I imagined her but I actually like showMin better than mine (so far, anyway). I picture her as more intense; I liked her casual, offhand manner.
• The music - not really noticed it before, but there were a couple of times this week where I noticed and liked it.

Disliked

• The writing (in places). Lan strays further from bookLan every week. I wish I could just accept that they are not writing the same character but he looks like Lan, and acts like Lan (when he's not talking) so I think this is going to carry on bugging me.
• Lan and Nynaeve having sex. Doesn't fit with Nynaeve's character (she's really quite prudish in places in the books), and I don't see why it was necessary. I'm seeing people saying it's to accelerate their relationship...erm, she basically proposes to Lan at this point in the books! It just feels like including sex to sell which I'm uncomfortable with.
• The love triangle thing. Unnecessary and adds nothing that I can see.
• Agelmar - came off like a cartoon character.
• Tigraine - having just given birth for the second time I really disliked the portrayal of a woman in late stage labour being able to take part in combat so spectacularly. It belittles what women go through when giving birth and - I may be wrong - but reeks of a man writing this without consulting women.

 

I'm actually wondering if the set up with Rand and Moiraine going to the Eye alone, combined with all new idea that whoever goes to the Eye apart from the Dragon will die means they might be bringing Moiraine's extended absence forward to the next episode? I think based on previous changes the writers would be happy making such a dramatic change. It would give them a shock ending (like Ned Stark's execution), and they have been very heavy handed with some foreshadowing of the bond breaking, Alanna-Moiraine chat scene, whole Stepin episode, Moiraine making sure Lan knows she likes Nynaeve etc. a very long way in advance of the event if they keep it in its original narrative place.

 

 

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, RhienneAgain said:

Liked

• The acting - across the board - this week. I feel like the actors have read the books and really 'get' the characters. Sometimes their expressions just so perfectly add something to the scene - Zoe Robins subtly projecting Nynaeve's uncertainty in herself, Egwene's self-confidence, Perrin's sense of 'being too big', Rand's innocence.

 

 

I had the same feeling watching this episode, especially on a rewatch. The micro-expressions these actors pull off are absolutely gorgeous, especially any scene Nynaeve is in and certain moments with Lan. I'm thinking specifically of the hallway scene after the dinner. You can see the love in Lan's eyes for Nynaeve and then literally watch it dim, fade, and vanish as he internally thinks of his responsibilities and fast-approaching death. Incredible.

[JaimAybara]

Me: Tam should have killed like 3 or 4 Trollocs in the barn. 

Responses: “He’s old, out of practice, and we can’t do everything like it was done in the books.”

 

Me: “A woman going into labor can take out like half a dozen dudes? Multiple of which coordinated their attacks?”

 

Responses: “I’ve seen women do yoga and CrossFit while pregnant.” 
 

? ??

[Therese Sedai]

6 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Hmmm, another episode that's left me with mixed feelings. Think I'm moving in a slightly more positive direction now.

 

Liked

• The acting - across the board - this week. I feel like the actors have read the books and really 'get' the characters. Sometimes their expressions just so perfectly add something to the scene - Zoe Robins subtly projecting Nynaeve's uncertainty in herself, Egwene's self-confidence, Perrin's sense of 'being too big', Rand's innocence.
• I liked Lan's retelling of his story. Thought Henney really nailed Lan's character and the writing was good, too.
• Scenery - I liked the Ways and the Blight actually (maybe my expectations are low and being exceeded!?), and the Fal Dara interiors, too.
• Min! Totally different from how I imagined her but I actually like showMin better than mine (so far, anyway). I picture her as more intense; I liked her casual, offhand manner.
• The music - not really noticed it before, but there were a couple of times this week where I noticed and liked it.

Disliked

• The writing (in places). Lan strays further from bookLan every week. I wish I could just accept that they are not writing the same character but he looks like Lan, and acts like Lan (when he's not talking) so I think this is going to carry on bugging me.
• Lan and Nynaeve having sex. Doesn't fit with Nynaeve's character (she's really quite prudish in places in the books), and I don't see why it was necessary. I'm seeing people saying it's to accelerate their relationship...erm, she basically proposes to Lan at this point in the books! It just feels like including sex to sell which I'm uncomfortable with.
• The love triangle thing. Unnecessary and adds nothing that I can see.
• Agelmar - came off like a cartoon character.
• Tigraine - having just given birth for the second time I really disliked the portrayal of a woman in late stage labour being able to take part in combat so spectacularly. It belittles what women go through when giving birth and - I may be wrong - but reeks of a man writing this without consulting women.

 

I'm actually wondering if the set up with Rand and Moiraine going to the Eye alone, combined with all new idea that whoever goes to the Eye apart from the Dragon will die means they might be bringing Moiraine's extended absence forward to the next episode? I think based on previous changes the writers would be happy making such a dramatic change. It would give them a shock ending (like Ned Stark's execution), and they have been very heavy handed with some foreshadowing of the bond breaking, Alanna-Moiraine chat scene, whole Stepin episode, Moiraine making sure Lan knows she likes Nynaeve etc. a very long way in advance of the event if they keep it in its original narrative place.

 

 

Do you think the bond will be transferred to Alanna instead of Myrelle? I’m quietly hopeful because Alanna has been such a great character in the show. 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

Really enjoying the discussion. Just gonna leave this here because it makes me chuckle:

 

HoW cAn ShE fIgHt?! ShE's PrEgNaNt!

Meanwhile, Boromir fights off a small army of orcs while impregnated with multiple 1/2" arrow shafts.

You missed a great opportunity to point out that both of these warriors were penetrated by shafts...