tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[LordyLord]

So Mixed feelings on this episode.

 

Objectively speaking, this was probably the best written/acted Episode of the season.

In fact If I judged it strictly on Acting and writing It would be 7/10. I suspect that Most Non readers will love this one.

 

The only bad writing I saw in the Episode was

-The Opening which was unnecessary

-How Morainne recieved the ''Eye of the World'' Mission

 

But theres a lot of good in the Show.

-Morainne and Sian are wonderfully acted

-Whitetower politics excellently done

-Blue Ajah well potrayed

-This is the First Episode I felt was PERFECTLY paced.

 

Now why do you think why Im Mixed?

 

Because this wonderful episode came at a cost.It sidelined the EF5 once again These are our wonderful Main characters and they are not being developed. I dont think it was worth it.This is not the Morainne/Lan show

 

PREDICTION:

Season will end with Mat being captured by Padan Fain.Rand goes on Great hunt not just to get the Horn but to rescue Matt.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by LordyLord

[Pandemonium]

3 minutes ago, LordyLord said:

So Mixed feelings on this episode.

 

Objectively speaking, this was probably the best written/acted Episode of the season.

In fact If I judged it strictly on Acting and writing It would be 7/10. I suspect that Most Non readers will love this one.

 

The only bad writing I saw in the Episode was

-The Opening which was unnecessary

-How Morainne recieved the ''Eye of the World'' Mission

 

But theres a lot of good in the Show.

-Morainne and Sian are wonderfully acted

-Whitetower politics excellently done

-Blue Ajah well potrayed

-This is the First Episode I felt was PERFECTLY paced.

 

Now why do you think why Im Mixed?

 

Because this wonderful episode came at a cost.It sidelined the EF5 once again These are our wonderful Main characters and they are not being developed. I dont think it was worth it.This is not the Morainne/Lan show

 

PREDICTION:

Season will end with Mat being captured by Padan Fain.Rand goes on Great hunt not just to get the Horn but to rescue Matt.

3 minutes ago, LordyLord said:

So Mixed feelings on this episode.

 

Objectively speaking, this was probably the best written/acted Episode of the season.

In fact If I judged it strictly on Acting and writing It would be 7/10. I suspect that Most Non readers will love this one.

 

The only bad writing I saw in the Episode was

-The Opening which was unnecessary

-How Morainne recieved the ''Eye of the World'' Mission

 

But theres a lot of good in the Show.

-Morainne and Sian are wonderfully acted

-Whitetower politics excellently done

-Blue Ajah well potrayed

-This is the First Episode I felt was PERFECTLY paced.

 

Now why do you think why Im Mixed?

 

Because this wonderful episode came at a cost.It sidelined the EF5 once again These are our wonderful Main characters and they are not being developed. I dont think it was worth it.This is not the Morainne/Lan show

 

PREDICTION:

Season will end with Mat being captured by Padan Fain.Rand goes on Great hunt not just to get the Horn but to rescue Matt.

 

That's a great theory and the only thing that makes sense to get Mat back in the same place as everyone else and aligned for book 2 chase.    Also that 100% makes sense because Mat didn't really do much in book 2, so sidelining him makes sense.

[nsmallw]

11 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I liked the Episode, if anything I was disappointed by how hyped up it was.

I'd probably rank the episodes like...

 

1st Place

Episode 4.

 

2nd Place

Episodes 6, 5, 3.

 

3rd Place

Episode 2

 

4th Place

Episode 1.

 

 

Also, I can't believe no one's said it yet.

 

We got to see boobs.

 

Seriously, we are excited about seeing boobs in a steamy sauna in low lighting ? What are we all teenage boys now ?

I've never been convinced that nudity is needed in the show.  The whole thing is a distraction imo. They could have done other scenes for other characters instead of that whole thing. How about showing Egwene and Perrin fleeing the WC and running to TV , then run into one of Moraine's eyes and ears. Done, constructive and better editing than the abrupt appearances were getting.

[CaddySedai]

To be fair even in art nudity is a distraction. 

 

What they did show is how they were going to handle it. 

 

I actually appreciated that nudity showed up in a bath house. 
 

I also appreciate that they went the implied sex route rather than what is so common in shows since Spartacus - showing sex and trying to one up the last. 

 

People were shocked then. Then became less - so shows started including non consensual stuff and showing that on screen. It honestly started to get out of hand. 

 

With GoT it was almost like if you got through an episode without sex or nudity you blinked and were confused - like having Kenny not die at the end of early seasons of south park. 

[TheDreadReader]

9 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Not that they're sticking to all the fine points but I'm clinging to the hope that the first seal is not yet broken, so we're still in the Ishy's the only one free phase.

 

I am hopeful for that as well.   Mostly, because I think that it is important to have consequences hanging over the last episode to build the second season off of. 

 

Siuan seemingly mistaking Ishy for the Dark One, in the same way that Rand does in the books, is a good choice, imo.

 

[SinisterDeath]

19 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

Seriously, we are excited about seeing boobs in a steamy sauna in low lighting ? What are we all teenage boys now ?

There was nothing exciting about those bazongas. Which is actually hopeful that the TV series follows the books stance that nudity =/= sex.

[ManetherenTaveren]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

And the worst moment of the series by far instead of telling Siuan that she had found the Dragon Reborn the thing the 2 of them had worked towards for 20 years the thing that means the salvation or ruination of the world they have sex first.

Lol...priorities, monsieur postal, priorities! But yeah, another plot-distracting moment. But S & M are good together. Honestly, given their relationship in New Spring, I was expecting that. I  was more concerned about how their ter'angreals were used. Did they use them to travel to their isolated sex island or did they use tel'aran'rhiod as a salacious destination? That matters!

 

(Rand and Aviendha should take note!) ? 

Edited December 10, 2021 by ManetherenTaveren

[elteryon]

Looked like the paintings? in Moiraine and Siuan's respective Ter'Angreal depicted views from their childhoods. A palace in Cairhien, and at least on my first watch a river view much like that in the cold open of Siuan in Tear.

 

Also assumed we saw the Stone of Tear in the cold open.

[Yojimbo]

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

Power Rangers - that is a good analogy and something that would seem to fit nicely with Rafe Judkins background and very limited talent. A bit like Agents of Shield garbage. 

 

I joked at one point in another thread that the 5 EF's were all living horcurxes and would share the title of DR.  I honestly didn't ever believe it would even be hinted at.  As Harry from Resident Alien would say, "This is some bullshit".

[Zarathustra]

I'm surprised that anyone is willing to defend this show at this point.

 

More poor casting choices aside;  Traveling, Mo-Si are now a sexual item (poor Thom and Gareth), Li with an implied male channeler lover/loved one, using the OR (sans its number) to make an oath after they've already been bound to speak no lies, DO and the EotW, etc.

 

The only way to save this series would be to zap the showrunners with balefire and erase them from the pattern--maybe someone would have been hired that both read the books and is capable of effectively using 10 million per episode. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zarathustra

[DermidAjala]

This will be an ep that will look strong in retrospect if they deliver well in the final 2, but may look like a case of too much dilution in favour of showcasing the headline actress if not.

 

My assumption is that Ishy is trying to drive them to TEotW by meddling in Siuan's dreams because that's the only place he can manifest physically at the moment. They will fend him off but it will be at the expanse of all the forsaken getting free and the Dark One starting to properly touch the world.

 

Shame about Barney Harris - that really threw an unfortunate spanner in the works for the ways scene. I'm not even sure if the actor was physically there for that last bit.

 

I enjoyed the tower scenes, it felt like a much bigger organisation this episode while last time out I felt it was a bit too empty of anyone else.

[Texas Grognard]

IMO--

 

Cutting Caemlyn is fine.  It doesn't advance the story in book 1 really.  It doesn't get you to the Eye any faster.

 

The show needed us to know more about the Aes Sedai in season 1 than we did in book 1.  They're part of the main attraction for viewers.

 

"Pillow Friends" appeared much earlier than in the books, and that's great.  RJ couldn't have written it that way in the early 90s, but you can't not have that content now especially since its cannon.

 

I have no idea why the Ways were taken away from Loial.  Why did Moiraine need to consult him at all?

 

Matt stayed because of the recasting, I'm almost certain.

 

"5 headed dragon" and the Eye being the prison of the Dark One just seems like dialing up the unreliable narrator to 11.  I think it'll be interesting to see whether non-book fans find it intriguing or frustrating.

 

IMO--the episode was perfectly fine.  Its not the book.  This is what historians feel like every time we watch a historical film.  Its what Freddie Mercury felt like watching his own biopic. This is the reductive and abstractive nature of the medium.

 

For people decrying the fans as Book Cloaks, I'd like to explain it like this.  For a long time there has been no new content for WoT.  The Fandom has been characterized by nostalgia and needing to convert people to their cause in order to share nostalgia.  However, during the period of RJ's active writing, WoT's Fandom was just as active and divisive as any other.  There were feuds, argument, battling theories and the like. While I worry about how the newly rejuvinated Fandom will impact the acquisition of new viewers, I must simultaneously recognize that this is very much a return to the glory days.

 

Folks, we have new content to argue about, and life is good.

[ManetherenTaveren]

3 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

Shame about Barney Harris - that really threw an unfortunate spanner in the works for the ways scene. I'm not even sure if the actor was physically there for that last bit.

Yeah, another jarring moment. My theory is that, before he left the cast, Barney Harris realized he was an unrelenting purist who couldn't handle this perplexing turning of the wheel. 

[DermidAjala]

8 minutes ago, Texas Grognard said:

I have no idea why the Ways were taken away from Loial.  Why did Moiraine need to consult him at all?

 

Just on this. Loial does not really help them enter the ways in the book, it is Moiraine who activates the mechanism. He does lead them to the old waygate but is primarily there to help them navigate.

Edited December 10, 2021 by DermidAjala

[TheDreadReader]

This episode is probably the first one to really frustrate me a little.  All correctable things, in my view, but still a little frustrating.  It probably did not help that I was several hours into a migraine when I watched it so my patience was a little shorter than normal.

 

The issues I took had to do with the two rivers folk and the balancing act that the show has to perform.  It would really have benefitted from giving their plot lines a little more time to breathe and balance out the Aes Sedai ones.  To me, the episode needed a 'warders at the campfire' scene with the EF5. 

 

Calm before the battle scenes are fairly standard fare, they serve a purpose, and it could really have used one here.  It wouldn't have to be a long scene but a minute or two with the EF5 together would have done a world of good.

 

The Lan, Moiraine, and Loial scene needed a little more as well to make the trip to the waygate feel less rushed.

 

All said and done, those are correctable things.  I think the show might have fallen into the trap of having some really well written and directed scenes with the Aes Sedai, Moiraine, and Siaun that could have been trimmed down to suit the story better but they were so good they couldn't bring themselves to do it.   That could also be an artifact of amazon's eight episode season and episode duration constraints.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[TheDreadReader]

6 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

Just on this. Loial does not really help them enter the ways in the book, it is Moiraine who activates the mechanism. He does lead them to the old waygate but is primarily there to help them navigate.

 

There is a behind the scenes image of Lan, Moiraine, and Loial looking at what is probably a map.  I suspect they filmed more to help things to make sense but they cut it for time.

 

[DojoToad]

17 minutes ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

Yeah, another jarring moment. My theory is that, before he left the cast, Barney Harris realized he was an unrelenting purist who couldn't handle this perplexing turning of the wheel. 

Doubtful, but I like how you think.

[WheelofJuke]

I'd have some shred of respect for the production if they had simply framed it as: The Adventures of Moiraine in Randland. 

 

Loosely based on WoT. 

 

Then I'd watch and say, "Cool." 

 

But they sold it as, "This will be faithful." No one expected it to be so far from source material, and not on minor details but huge important central premises. 

[NetNightmare]

48 minutes ago, Texas Grognard said:

I have no idea why the Ways were taken away from Loial.  Why did Moiraine need to consult him at all?

to "fetch" the girls since Lan wen to "fetch" the boys, and maybe (we will see) to guide them through the ways at least I hope so

 

48 minutes ago, Texas Grognard said:

"Pillow Friends" appeared much earlier than in the books, and that's great.  RJ couldn't have written it that way in the early 90s, but you can't not have that content now especially since its cannon.

 

Or maybe that wasn't "important" sometimes the easier explanation is the one that ring most true ... is the fact they were pillow friends so important ?? well of course the answer to that depends on individuals to me for example absolutely is not. On a side note "pillow friends" can have abroad spectrum o significance  most of the time it will just be something innocent or part of juvenile sex exploration. Nonetheless since they have no time in 8 episodes season they decided to follow the "love romance" path and lend all that time to it.

 

That was a conscious choice. take it for what it is, they are not making change for time constraint, but because they wanted to tell a different "story" (call it another turning if it rings better). Many people are waiting for a convergence of all these changes to the original story line, I had to surrender to the fact this wont be the case.  I believe it will just get more different, looks at all the ripples they have created in this episode... we will see

Edited December 10, 2021 by NetNightmare

[MasterAblar]

I highly doubt anyone at any point in the production said this is gonna be a 1 to 1 adaptation that will be completely faithful.

 

Acting like the fandom has been betrayed because the show is veering off the book path somewhat to bring other perspectives to the fore is just silly. No matter how disappointed some might be with the show, and believe me I am by no means 100% pleased by it, there is simply no valid metric by which the show could be called a failure.

Edited December 10, 2021 by MasterAblar

[DreadParrot]

Any chance they are altering the pacing and focus of the show to try and create a Ned stark moment? Basically are they going to potentially off moriaine in season finale and they want to stage her as focal point to amp the shock factor? We have the emotional and trending moment in place with “on your knees”. Could segueway into Ishy echoing that statement before killing her…

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, DreadParrot said:

Any chance they are altering the pacing and focus of the show to try and create a Ned stark moment? Basically are they going to potentially off moriaine in season finale and they want to stage her as focal point to amp the shock factor? We have the emotional and trending moment in place with “on your knees”. Could segueway into Ishy echoing that statement before killing her…

No chance Moiraine is offed at the end of this season. Her and Rand have barely interacted so far.  
 

That said the comparison to Ned Stark is accurate in the sense that the 1st season is essentially being told from Moiraine’s perspective not Rand’s. At the moment she is the main character of the story and we pretty much knew this ahead of time. I don’t get how anyone can be surprised that fair amount of time is being spent on her story.

Edited December 10, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Wraith235]

this episode actually angered me and Im about to tap myself
I liked seeing the tower politics at work
Suiane and Moraine as lovers .... meh - they could always be bi ... like someone else said "poor Thom and Gareth" I actually expected that to happen

4 headed Dragon because they keep saying Nyneave is to old - this will be the quickest way to turn book fans away FOR GOOD - and at this point ... ya .. I expect it
Waygate - What the Absolute **** SOOOOO MANY ISSUES WITH THIS
EotW is now the Location of the Bore - I dont have ANY FAITH that Rafe is competent enough to pull off the "Ishameal is messing with them" 
Leaving Mat outside the Waygate .... tbh if what dragonmount said is True I can deal - I dont like it ... but I can deal
 

[TheDreadReader]

2 hours ago, LordyLord said:

 

-This is the First Episode I felt was PERFECTLY paced.

 

Because this wonderful episode came at a cost.It sidelined the EF5 once again These are our wonderful Main characters and they are not being developed. I dont think it was worth it.This is not the Morainne/Lan show

 

 

 

Those two points seem at odds with each other.   

 

To me, the biggest issue of this episode is the emotional pacing.   It is like a pop song with big emotional choruses.  The first one is big.  The second one is bigger.  But, to make the third iteration even bigger you have to downregulate a bit before going into the third chorus lest you lose it's impact.

 

This episode could easily be split into 1.5 to 2.0 episodes and the emotional beats would have had far more impact.

 

 

[WheelofJuke]

11 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I highly doubt anyone at any point in the production said this is gonna be a 1 to 1 adaptation that will be completely faithful.

 

Acting like the fandom has been betrayed because the show is veering off the book path somewhat to bring other perspectives to the fore is just silly. No matter how disappointed some might be with the show, and believe me I am by no means 100% pleased by it, there is simply no valid metric by which the show could be called a failure.

Respectfully disagree 100%. It's poorly made television that misses the mark and makes an unwatchable hash of the source material. I am by no means a nitpicker or 1-for-1 adaptation idealist. If anything, I'm for streamlining of the source material. But it seems like they chose to keep words but not concepts.