tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Wraith235]

34 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I don't blame Rafe for Harris.  it's an assumption, but balance of probabilities say it's not his fault. Occam's razor says it's Covid related, somehow. And I can think of at least 4 reasonable ways they can get Mat to Falme by episode 8, so it's easily fixable, since his role on the road in tGH was minimal.

 

 

wrong mat stuff .... talking about after he gets his memories back and it wold be messy that he lead other lives some of which wold have been women ..... he already had enough of an identity crisis .... he doesnt need more 

no if the Harris Departure reports are true I no longer even look at that as a point of contention

[dwn]

45 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I'm not a big fan of the lightning that appears to be lighting up the ways. Maybe I am wrong to think that the ways are pitch black.

Do you think the lightning is artistic license, or maybe a a practicality for filming in a dark setting?

 

I'll give them extra artistic license here. The Ways as described in the books were basically a black void with a latticework of pathways that didn't make logical sense. It's a cool concept, but it'd be nigh impossible to depict and make interesting on screen.

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

I'll give them extra artistic license here. The Ways as described in the books were basically a black void with a latticework of pathways that didn't make logical sense. It's a cool concept, but it'd be nigh impossible to depict and make interesting on screen.

Maybe this version is less like Mines of Moria

[dwn]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Maybe this version is less like Mines of Moria

 

Nah. In this version they even set Bill the Pony loose before entering.

[NetNightmare]

14 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Just because they hadn't had face-to-face contact in over 2 years, it doesn't mean that they hadn't spoken to each other in over 2 years.

mmm so they can't have a conversation inside Siuan office\room in TV which could be shielded for eavesdropping and is guarded by the keeper (wait ... is there still the keeper to admit audience ??? if there is they didn't show it) but can send what ? messages ? messenger ?? are they more secure ?.

 

Honestly am not against this Ter'Angreal introduction, but that imho wasn't well planned

[RhienneAgain]

9 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think once <deleted> is revealed to be the DR, most of those are going to blow away. The references to female dragons (which I took to mean False Dragons) are the only material changes to history or geography I've noticed, if you don't count stuff that's flat dropped for time. The prophecy confusion leading to <deleted> won't matter.  We may even get scenes pointing out how accurate the Cycle is, along with new Foretellings from the Finns and the Min to help drive the plot forward, and align more closely to the books. The reincarnation argument is no more provable in WoT than it is in any real world religion, and doesn't impact much in the story - plot, theme, or setting - so don't dwell on it.

 

As for the pandering, I'll take that in two parts:

1. The homosexual behaviour of the Aes Sedai and the Warders is in text canon, and believable in both the cultural context of the AS, and in the emotional resonance caused by the bond itself. Certainly much more in text than it was in the Pern novels, which had the exact same kind of relationships 25 years earlier. And it's much more believable than, say, Frank Miller's 300 NOT having homosexuality in it. I don't think of this as pandering

2. The overemphasis of women in positions of power outside the AS. I grant that is being shown more, by director's choice. But a thought occurs to me as I type this. The culling (as Adeleas I think called it) of strong men who can channel may have also been culling other male traits out of the population. Not that I'll credit RJ2 with following that logic, but in a society where men were not to be trusted for 3,000 years, it's a wonder the whole continent isn't Ebou Dar. Or Y the Last Man, or The White Plague. It emphasizes that the world is out of balance and desperately needs fixing. And if you're taking a current day sub-text out of that, you may want to consider why.

 

Having said all that, if <deleted> isn't clearly a channeling Dragon Reborn by X-mas morning, I'll be upset enough at Shai'tan Clause to change my views on a lot of this.

I totally agree with you point number 1. I think my issue with the treatment of same-sex relationships is that (imo) the sexuality of the Warders feels like it had very awkwardly been pushed to the fore and waved at the audience by way of virtue signalling rather than being authentic. By contrast, I felt Siuan's and Moiraine's relationship felt a lot more natural and genuine.

 

2. Good explanation, but do you really believe this is the showrunners' reason with the changes? I don't, but each to their own.

[DojoToad]

13 hours ago, WheelofJuke said:

On a very surface level the Green Man doesn't really matter.

 

On a deeper level he's extremely important, being the last living (non-forsaken) creature from the Age of Legends, and was a witness to both the bore AND the breaking, and all that came out of that. 

 

His link between the Aes Sedai of old, the Jenn Aiel, and Rand (as their direct descendent) is a passing of the torch of the Age of Legends. 

 

His death represents the ending of an Age and the turning of the wheel. A true harbinger of the coming of the Shadow.

 

Edit: Which is to say, matters not at all for the t.v. series.

Very well said.  Never made that connection myself.

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

Anyways I know i am rambling.     I do think that Ep6 is likely the most divisive episode yet, and feel confident 7 & 8 will be a lot less divisive.   

 

If the most recent episode was the most divisive, what makes you think the next ones will be less so rather than more?  Do you see a pattern?

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Joe B said:

I'm not a big fan of the lightning that appears to be lighting up the ways. Maybe I am wrong to think that the ways are pitch black.

Do you think the lightning is artistic license, or maybe a a practicality for filming in a dark setting?

Not only are the Ways pitch black, but they eat any light you bring inside.  

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, dwn said:

 

I'll give them extra artistic license here. The Ways as described in the books were basically a black void with a latticework of pathways that didn't make logical sense. It's a cool concept, but it'd be nigh impossible to depict and make interesting on screen.

I don't know. Think this would have been the perfect place for some CGI budget.  The darkness of the Ways probably makes it even easier to pull off.  Someone mentioned the Mines of Moria.  That was made 20 years ago.  Couldn't they do something similar for much less now?

[fra85uk]

27 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

If the most recent episode was the most divisive, what makes you think the next ones will be less so rather than more?  Do you see a pattern?

I guess that the hypothesis is based on the fact that ep7. and 8 should go back to the source material, after (for me) 3 hours of horrible fan-fiction.

Still, Rafe, or as they call him Raginor, has already shown that he can not only come up with useless (for me) side-plots but can also taint scenes from the source material, as well.

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, dwn said:

 

I'll give them extra artistic license here. The Ways as described in the books were basically a black void with a latticework of pathways that didn't make logical sense. It's a cool concept, but it'd be nigh impossible to depict and make interesting on screen.

I dont think thats true you can set it up with little expense to the overall budget. Emphasize the light being almost being pushed back giving you a very tense atmosphere within which to work and you start to actually get some development between the EF4 and Lan Moiraine and Loial.

 

The group are forced to remain together you have the suffocation of the dark surrounding them. Would be a excellent place to give the audience through the EF4 a more world building view of the things that are occurring.

[Agitel]

I think the Ways could be done true to book. There are other considerations, but I think they're definitely doable.

[NetNightmare]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

That was made 20 years ago.  Couldn't they do something similar for much less now?

Every time someone bring up the budget, I can't help but wonder .... how could they spend $10 million (if the reported budged is real that is) for 1 hour of footage and come up with such result in term of CGI \ light \ color \ set \ editing etc., the overall result is something that always bothered me, ....I mean there are "movies" that cost about the same for 90° footage and looks way way better.

 

When Moraine opens the Waygate and we see just a dark blur is not that bad but once they enter, those dark pillar screams fake, probably even Mat noticed them from afar...

 

I do not work into the movie industries so I have no clue about many things, but I guess even I can see there is something definitely wrong with the final result here ... I seriously hope they will fix this for season 2

 

[Deviations]

18 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Spoiler

What does Abell actually do in the books?
He shows up as Tam's follower essentially in Book 4.  Which he can still do.
He mostly follows in Tam's shadows, making a few lines but otherwise accomplishing nothing directly.
He then has a few small cameos where he does nothing of importance.

What does Natti actually do in the books?
Get Captured with her daughters.
Get rescused.
Have a few small cameos where she does nothing of importance.

The change does nothing to the Narrative.

I wouldn't have cared about leaving them out.  Very easy to have Mat talk about his dad being a good horse trader even though he was never on screen.  To fundamentally change the people that they were, and thereby Mat's upbringing is what I have a problem with.  It changed who Mat was as a character.  He went from a scamp to a disillusioned protector.

 

Siuan's book meeting with him left SOME doubt.  Will he be the type who goes into the fire or won't he?  I won't argue that the first actor turned in a solid performance.  It just doesn't represent my version of Mat.

[ArrylT]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

If the most recent episode was the most divisive, what makes you think the next ones will be less so rather than more?  Do you see a pattern?

 

Pattern? I wish - but alas I have no skill at reading the pattern the wheel weaves.

 

I am just going by logic.   The last episode had certain events in it that caused a lot of "division" depending on what one thought of each of those events / scenes.    While I will have to wait for the teaser(s) to drop to help confirm, it seems probable that these last episodes (a) hews closer to the EOTW plotline and (b) is expected to give us new aspects of the World (as hinted by Rosamund Pike).  

 

So logically speaking, if this episode focuses more on events in EOTW and less on characters / world building beyond EOTW it will be less divisive that previous episodes, because there is less to be divided about.   

 

But as we all know, sometimes applying logic to a fantasy world, well it just doesnt work. ?

[notpropaganda73]

2 hours ago, NetNightmare said:

Every time someone bring up the budget, I can't help but wonder .... how could they spend $10 million (if the reported budged is real that is) for 1 hour of footage and come up with such result in term of CGI \ light \ color \ set \ editing etc., the overall result is something that always bothered me, ....I mean there are "movies" that cost about the same for 90° footage and looks way way better.

 

Citation needed. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

Pattern? I wish - but alas I have no skill at reading the pattern the wheel weaves.

 

I am just going by logic.   The last episode had certain events in it that caused a lot of "division" depending on what one thought of each of those events / scenes.    While I will have to wait for the teaser(s) to drop to help confirm, it seems probable that these last episodes (a) hews closer to the EOTW plotline and (b) is expected to give us new aspects of the World (as hinted by Rosamund Pike).  

 

So logically speaking, if this episode focuses more on events in EOTW and less on characters / world building beyond EOTW it will be less divisive that previous episodes, because there is less to be divided about.   

 

But as we all know, sometimes applying logic to a fantasy world, well it just doesnt work. ?

I will be waiting anxiously for the reviews on Friday morning.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

2 hours ago, NetNightmare said:

Every time someone bring up the budget, I can't help but wonder .... how could they spend $10 million (if the reported budged is real that is) for 1 hour of footage and come up with such result in term of CGI \ light \ color \ set \ editing etc., the overall result is something that always bothered me, ....I mean there are "movies" that cost about the same for 90° footage and looks way way better.

 

Citation needed. 

Worth keeping in mind how much cheaper it is to produce film and TV shot in the contemporary world - huge savings on sets, CGI and costumes plus you can make back substantial sums from product placement while a can of a famous soft drink or a pair of expensive trainers have no place in a fantasy production.   A lot more budget for big name actors, multiple takes, lighting and camera crew etc.

[ArrylT]

11 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Worth keeping in mind how much cheaper it is to produce film and TV shot in the contemporary world - huge savings on sets, CGI and costumes plus you can make back substantial sums from product placement while a can of a famous soft drink or a pair of expensive trainers have no place in a fantasy production.   A lot more budget for big name actors, multiple takes, lighting and camera crew etc.

 

Tam Al'Thor needs to pressure Amazon to get his Apple Brandy as the exclusive drink of the WOT

[Sabio]

Like the Starbucks cup they forgot about in the last season of GOT.

[Ralph]

18 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Like the Starbucks cup they forgot about in the last season of GOT.

 

How much do you think they paid for that? ?

[dwn]

8 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I don't know. Think this would have been the perfect place for some CGI budget.  The darkness of the Ways probably makes it even easier to pull off.  Someone mentioned the Mines of Moria.  That was made 20 years ago.  Couldn't they do something similar for much less now?

 

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

I dont think thats true you can set it up with little expense to the overall budget. Emphasize the light being almost being pushed back giving you a very tense atmosphere within which to work and you start to actually get some development between the EF4 and Lan Moiraine and Loial.

 

The group are forced to remain together you have the suffocation of the dark surrounding them. Would be a excellent place to give the audience through the EF4 a more world building view of the things that are occurring.

 

5 hours ago, Agitel said:

I think the Ways could be done true to book. There are other considerations, but I think they're definitely doable.

 

Regardless of budget, making a black void (and nonsensical geometry) compelling in a visual medium is extremely difficult. I'll reserve judgement for what we end up with in the next episode, but if they manage to convey the oppressive/unnerving loneliness of the Ways in some other fashion I'll be fine with it.

[ForsakenPotato]

I also think it makes sense they left the horses behind for the ways even if it's not true to the books. Having a medium sized group of people plus pack animals in a dark and narrow setting would be hard to film and the horses would mostly get in the way of fitting more actual characters in each frame.

 

Though I don't know if TV Mat should be trusted with 7 good horses whose owners may never return...he's about to trade some ponies for a profit ha ha.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:00 AM, WhiteVeils said:

It took me a long time to figure Mat's leaving out in the show, but I finally put the pieces together. Granted....they don't make it easy within the episode.

Every bit of marketing on Mat during the runup to the show describes him as being afraid of 'going bad'...being a prick like his father, a drunk like his mother.  In the advertising for Ep 6, it is about Mat facing the 'darkness inside himself.

When we hear that phrase, we assume that it means the one facing the darkness will face it down and decide that they /will/ be the hero they are expected to be. But Mat, as he says in the books over and over, is "no bloody hero".  He has looked at the darkness inside himself and realized, at least for the moment, that he would cave to the evil inside him. He /was/ caving to the evil inside him from the dagger. He would fall.

He knows, or has learned two things about the Dragon.  He knows that the Dragon will either defeat the Dark One, OR join them.
AND he knows that Moiraine did not answer Egwene's question "What happens to those who aren't the Dragon?"  
Lacking that answer...Egwene goes anyway, because she is ridiculously brave, the bravest of all of them.  Rand goes because Egwene does.  Perrin goes because he doesn't care if he lives or dies anyway, really, after Layla.  And Nynaeve goes because she doesn't believe Moiraine and wants to protect the EF5 from her.  But Mat is savvy and untrusting enough to know those who aren't the Dragon will likely die.
So...if he IS the Dragon, Mat believes he would join the Dark One.  And if he is NOT the Dragon, he would die and there's nothing anyone could do about it.  

Mat didn't go to save the world from himself.

And he didn't say anything to anyone else, because he doesn't believe they would join with the Dark One, if they were the Dragon.

My working theory, anyway.

I like that way of thinking very much.