tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Wraith235]

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

23 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

 

 

Like many others I dislike the decision to make the Waygates activated by using the power. Although this is not important in the grand scheme of things. Just a small complaint.

 

 

 

no this has HUGE Ramifications ... if you recall the Waygates were how the Trollocs got to the two rivers ... and if they require a channeler to open then the same SHOULD be true for exiting the ways 
and we know Fades cannot channel - and the forsaken cant be in all places at once so we must have Hundreds of darkfriend channelers just on standby everywhere to open these gates .... then compount that with Machin Shin - or are they going to cut that as well (certainly doesnt seem that way with saying that the horses wont survive the ways)

Edited December 10, 2021 by Wraith235

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

hows it going to look if they walk all that back

It's going to look like Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

[Skipp]

Just now, Therese Sedai said:

After I wrote this I read a post about Loial suggesting that in the absence of the leaf, they would need an aes sedai. So that’s a decent explanation and leaves the Ways I open for future use by non-channellers. 

This is very true, if THIS SPECIFIC waygate is missing it's leaf so only channlers can open it I would be completely fine that that change.

 

I personally was hoping that the CG for opening the waygate would more closely represent the books.  Like a Doorway is slowly revealed as vines move away from it and the door slide into the pillars or some such.  It ultimately doesn't mean much I was just hoping for something else.

 

On the plus side I loved the quick glimpse we saw of the ways.  It looked liked there was a constant rolling thunderstorm in the sky.

[Wraith235]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

It's going to look like Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

and you enrage the twitterverse
 

[Spiritweaver1]

15 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

okay full comments later, but want to get this on the record - anyone else get the feeling that Ishy's been playing with Siuan's dreams to get the party sent to they Eye?

 

I doubt it.  He would want them "safe" in TV which, as som of us know, is full of Black Ajah.  

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Wraith235 said:

and you enrage the twitterverse
 

Oh no. Whatever will we do. People are mad on the Twitter.

[fra85uk]

I was sure that DR was going to be Rand but not after the last tortur...ehm episode.

 

Now I really feel that they are going for the shared soul and with the power ranger Dragon.

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

you believe its referencing Nyneave and while sure thats a logical conclusion - they also state shes too old 

I mean for gods sake do they even read the prophecys ?
Born of Ancient Blood Raised by the Old Blood - there are only 2 POTENTIAL Solutions to that equation, Rand and Nyneave and Nyn is too old ... however your already throwing out the Amount of He/Him References in the prophecys so why not throw that out too 

 

 

That we have different takes on a scene kind of shows the whole how trustworthy is a 3000 year old book thing nicely.  ?

Also, real life English, He/Him is the gender neutral pronoun in the english language until recently when we as a whole society have made a conscious effort to shift to they/them as a singular vague instead of a plural.

So it's very possible for there to be translations that pull that into question.

[Zarathustra]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

I don't have the scene at hand, but I think there's discussion somewhere that as long as it was genuinely meant at the time it's no problem.  IE she has to seriously really plan to bring her to them.  But if, say, later she discovered Nynaeve was a DF, then that changes everything and she could change her mind organically.  

 

 

In real life homogeny happened because there was tens of thousands of years of human development in any given area with little travel.  In the books there was a multi-culture, incredibly diverse kingdom where the Two Rivers is 2000 years ago.  60-100 generations is not enough to force homogeny back.  The people complaining aren't rightfully pointing out how wrong the show is, they're pointing out they don't understand basic genetics.

I disagree.  Consider real world analogs in which the local genetic makeup rather quickly changed due to war (Southern Spain, S Italy, S&E Greece, Mexico, etc.).  Sure, there are isolates (Ankara and blondes via a Gallic horde, the prevalence of clusters of green eyes in Persia, etc.) where traits still linger, but your claim of 60-100 generations not being a long enough period of time to achieve homogeneity is absurd.

 

Of course, There's also the fact that the people of the previous age in Randland appeared to cluster as well.  There's a reason why Semirhage, for example, was playing in Seanchan--she was as black as Tuon and would have stood out in "modern" W-Randland (which used Europe as a template).  Jordan essentially used the American South and its farmers (predominately derived from the BI) as a template for the Two Rivers and its people. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zarathustra

[Therese Sedai]

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

This is very true, if THIS SPECIFIC waygate is missing it's leaf so only channlers can open it I would be completely fine that that change.

 

I personally was hoping that the CG for opening the waygate would more closely represent the books.  Like a Doorway is slowly revealed as vines move away from it and the door slide into the pillars or some such.  It ultimately doesn't mean much I was just hoping for something else.

 

On the plus side I loved the quick glimpse we saw of the ways.  It looked liked there was a constant rolling thunderstorm in the sky.

Same. I imagined it to be more organic too. But the big stone gate is a nice nod to the ogier’s stonemason skills and maybe Loial will give us some of that information in the next episode. 
 

The Ways look frightening with that kind of corrupted M C Escher architecture. Makes me wonder why no one else seemed terrified at the prospect of having to go inside. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Therese Sedai
Spelling

[KakitaOCU]

6 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Bad Natti is a bad on-screen mother as a consequence of Abel being a womanizer and she predict that his son is going to become as his father ?

 

I am not doing a count, I am just looking at how changes seem to be unidirectional...

Per your logic if we don't see the evidence we assume bad.  We don't know why Abell is a womanizer, so clearly Natti drove him to it.  (I don't believe this, I'm just pointing out that failings of assuming one answer when evidence allows multiple)

 

4 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

and you enrage the twitterverse
 

 

Or, crazy idea, people will talk up Egwene as being super awesome because she did it all on her own without prophecy or specialness.   Kind of like the book crowd does when the "Should Egwene be ta'veren" comes up.

 

 

 

 

[Therese Sedai]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Per your logic if we don't see the evidence we assume bad.  We don't know why Abell is a womanizer, so clearly Natti drove him to it.  (I don't believe this, I'm just pointing out that failings of assuming one answer when evidence allows multiple)

 

 

Or, crazy idea, people will talk up Egwene as being super awesome because she did it all on her own without prophecy or specialness.   Kind of like the book crowd does when the "Should Egwene be ta'veren" comes up.

 

 

 

 

Sorry it’s been a long time since I’ve read the books. Aren’t Nyn and Eg both ta’veren too? 

[RextheDog]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  In the books Moraine is not injured after Shadar Logoth and when Nynaeve creeps up on them Moraine doesn't notice for a while before suddenly realizing.  

 

 

 

 

i didnt really get that...i got that she let Nyn think she was getting away with stalking them....been a while since the reread, so i stand to be corrected.

[Gothic Flame]

5 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Sorry it’s been a long time since I’ve read the books. Aren’t Nyn and Eg both ta’veren too? 

Hell no!

To clarify; the three are Mat, Perrin, and Rand.

For....whatever "reason" Rafe & Co. wanted to add Egwene...and then Logain, referring to his idea of a multi-headed Dragon. (I'm sure he imagines this as a brilliant idea...somehow, but with no justfication whatsoever.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Clarity

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Sorry it’s been a long time since I’ve read the books. Aren’t Nyn and Eg both ta’veren too? 

They are not, it's actually a bone of contention in the old days.  Why is it only the 3 men were Ta'veren, how is Egwene not Ta'Veren when she keeps stumbling into these ridiculous skill sets and situations, isn't Nynaeve Ta'Veren because... 

 

 

7 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

 

i didnt really get that...i got that she let Nyn think she was getting away with stalking them....been a while since the reread, so i stand to be corrected.

 

She essentially was aware but distracted and so didn't look.  

[Arie]

It's not like Nynaeve stayed close to Moraine for her to really assess, and she was unconscious half the time.

[RextheDog]

2 hours ago, henfen said:

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  I understand this may go over many people's heads.  But please don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

 

hetrosexual here, so i may miss subtle points, but....

 

can i ask tactfully, how do you want them portrayed? as far as i can see its tactfully done, i'm not watched M and S 'get it on' to get my juices flowing.......they are some of the most powerful people in the land, sharing  a love interest.

 

'on your knees' was a bit cringy, but surely we've all had a bit of emotion when about to ....yknow....

 

one of those relationships (warders) are openly bisexual, and the other, i honestly think is covert, not because of the nature of it, but because of the business at hand.

 

im struggling to see why either relationship is being used to 'score points'?

 

 

[jh557]

9 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Sorry it’s been a long time since I’ve read the books. Aren’t Nyn and Eg both ta’veren too? 

 No they were never named ta'veren. In the old days, there were plenty of theories and debates on this subject. But there was never a time in the books where Siuan or Logain who had the Talent to see ta'veren ever claimed that they were indeed ta'veren. 

[Wraith235]

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

That we have different takes on a scene kind of shows the whole how trustworthy is a 3000 year old book thing nicely.  ?

Also, real life English, He/Him is the gender neutral pronoun in the english language until recently when we as a whole society have made a conscious effort to shift to they/them as a singular vague instead of a plural.

So it's very possible for there to be translations that pull that into question.

and that ONLY Works if you de-gender souls that the weave spits out .... which is against Cannon of the world and really started this whole thing

and Rafe himself went as far as to say "we're doing it, we know it has ripple effects, and were going to continue to do it" 

take his statment - all the doubling down on Eg being the DR , everything about Female dragons and False Dragons, and now the inclusion of the possibility of Captain Dragon Reborn. 

no .... I see enough evidence easily .... as well as motive and intent

and NEVER undestimate the power of people being mad on twitter
make twitter mad = and Cancel culture comes for the WoT Series, and by extension Amazon

and as far as saying Nyn and Eg not being Ta'veran was a bone in the old days .... what do you think is happening now ? 
and we even have direct statements from Sanderson and Jordan saying - No they arent

Edited December 10, 2021 by Wraith235

[Therese Sedai]

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

They are not, it's actually a bone of contention in the old days.  Why is it only the 3 men were Ta'veren, how is Egwene not Ta'Veren when she keeps stumbling into these ridiculous skill sets and situations, isn't Nynaeve Ta'Veren because... 

 

 

 

She essentially was aware but distracted and so didn't look.  

 

 

This either went completely over my head when I was reading or I just forgot. Thank you for explaining, I appreciate it. 

[fra85uk]

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Per your logic if we don't see the evidence we assume bad.  We don't know why Abell is a womanizer, so clearly Natti drove him to it.  (I don't believe this, I'm just pointing out that failings of assuming one answer when evidence allows multiple)

 

My logic is that every change that has been done to a male character (in particular fatherly figures) is for the worse.

But we can just agree to disagree and move on. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by fra85uk

[RextheDog]

1 hour ago, WheelofJuke said:

Seriously, though, as a father with a young daughter, this scene was pure trash. 

 

No self respecting father would just let their child pole off upriver (!) hundreds and hundreds of miles through wilderness to a far away city. SORRY. Some of the worst writing...

 

exactly.

 

what hurts more is it didnt have to be written like that, it was GOT final season bad, where the obvious choice just gets ignored for absolutely no reason....theres no WAFO here.......there could have been reasons written in for him to stay....siblings, elderly, protecting a community from raiders, he could have been mortally wounded in an attack...the list is near endless

 

but what we get is 'i cant come because, reasons'........

 

i forgive alot of things, but stuff like that is both lazy and arrogant.

 

he litterally had NOTHING to stay for and EVERYTHING to leave for.

[flinn]

12 hours ago, JimGalaxy said:

... wow, flinn. That is next-level stuff; studying figurines in a still-shot. No lie - *much* respect.

 I cant take credit for it. When I saw it on the show, I planned to "go back" and look in detail but before I got around to it, posts were popping up online with still pictures of them.

[RextheDog]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

It's jumping to conclusion to assume anything the information doesn't provide us.  

What we actually know:
Siuan had to leave for people fearing her channeling. 
Father sent her alone on a boat up river.
Father had no boat or house left or way to survive to our view.

What we don't know:
Siuans full and exact path to Tar Valon.
Why father stayed behind when he had nothing

Some people are jumping to conclusions, yes.  I just posited several other options that also work perfectly well.  I didn't insist any individual reason was correct.  

 

 

alright, ill take a breath and give benefit of the doubt because i just want to enjoy the show and Jordans world, but i do think they could have given us SOMETHING to hold onto....what we get on screen is not even a HINT of why.....they should at least give us that....

 

otherwise why bother with a show at all....ill just sit in the corner and imagine everything.....

[Therese Sedai]

34 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

hetrosexual here, so i may miss subtle points, but....

 

can i ask tactfully, how do you want them portrayed? as far as i can see its tactfully done, i'm not watched M and S 'get it on' to get my juices flowing.......they are some of the most powerful people in the land, sharing  a love interest.

 

'on your knees' was a bit cringy, but surely we've all had a bit of emotion when about to ....yknow....

 

one of those relationships (warders) are openly bisexual, and the other, i honestly think is covert, not because of the nature of it, but because of the business at hand.

 

im struggling to see why either relationship is being used to 'score points'?

 

 

You’ll probably get a different answer from every lgbt person you ask so I hope it’s ok if I throw in my two cents. 
 

I personally enjoyed it. Cringe gif moment and all. I felt the scene as a whole was tasteful and not at all gratuitous. It served to show us just how much they’ve both personally sacrificed to ensure the DR is found and guided on their journey.
 

We saw them both let down their guard. Sophie’s acting was incredible in the hut. Her demeanour, her accent, her body language was totally different to what we saw of the Amyrlin. Rosamund finally showed us Moiraine relaxed, open, and vulnerable with the person she feels safest around. It was all very tender.
 

Is the romance necessary? Nope. But the tale of “duty above all” works better with them as lovers spending stolen nights together in the secret sanctuary of their little dream world than it would if they were just best friends. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Therese Sedai
grammar for clarity