tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, DermidAjala said:

The same way he did in the books? Without really knowing what he was doing.

 

Also I never realised people thought Rand killing a blademaster 1v1 after less than a years training was something realistic to build up to in the first place haha.

Depends on the teacher as much as the student. Unfortunately Lan is the teacher...damn. Paging Egwene and Nynaeve!

[Deviations]

3 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

9 minutes ago, Deviations said:

How will he win the fight at the end of this season???

The same way he did in the books? Without really knowing what he was doing.

 

Also I never realised people thought Rand killing a blademaster 1v1 after less than a years training was something realistic to build up to in the first place haha. I'd not be sweating that one, he'll get some training in Fal Dara and a shot or two at the start of S2 if they want to go that route and that will be enough.

At least he'd had enough training to know how to stand and hold it correctly.  None of that has been established at this point.

[TheDreadReader]

41 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

I'm not sure why a Warder had a set of Forsaken idols to begin with, anyway. It was just a really sloppy way to introduce something that should've been taken care of in Episode 1. 

 

IIRC, there are places in the books where stories about the forsaken are used to frighten children by their parents.  Using idols as a means to show that the forsaken exist, there is an awareness of them in society, and society has developed a kind of folk magic to deal with them; makes for some interesting worldbuilding in a show don't tell way.

 

I actually liked that bit especially with the burning sage and the big Ishy hint.  Although, I didn't like the "Father of Lies" note.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[Pandemonium]

3 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

The same way he did in the books? Without really knowing what he was doing.

 

Also I never realised people thought Rand killing a blademaster 1v1 after less than a years training was something realistic to build up to in the first place haha. I'd not be sweating that one, he'll get some training in Fal Dara and a shot or two at the start of S2 if they want to go that route and that will be enough.

Part of this is also his relationship with Lan to build, Duty is heavier than a mountain,. no room for love but only duty, eventually sheathing the sword, etc.  Those are themes that play through the whole series.

 

Rand beating a blademaster was only believable if I thought about it in 2 possible ways:

 

1.  Rand was harnessing Lews Therins memories

2.  Rand started so inept, but the  reached for the void and became competent so quickly that it deceived Turok.  

 

[Pandemonium]

5 minutes ago, DELTA said:

not sure that was the intended conclusion ?

 alot of potential unintended conclusions with Stepin.

 

a.  His mother was a darkfriend because she has forsaken idols.

b.  He killed himself because he didn't want to be in a relationship with Alanas warders.  ?

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

IIRC, there are places in the books where stories about the forsaken are used to frighten children by their parents.  Using idols as a means to show that the forsaken exist, there is an awareness of them in society, and society has developed a kind of folk magic to deal with them; makes for some interesting worldbuilding in a show don't tell way.

 

I actually liked that bit especially with the burning sage and the big Ishy hint.  Although, I didn't like the "Father of Lies" note.

 

Mat could have told his little sisters about the Forsaken to scare them in episode 1.  No idols necessary.

 

But instead we had Moiraine confronting Nynaeve at the sacred pool.

[AusLeviathan]

10 minutes ago, Deviations said:

The long run is how many books away when Lan's bond is handed off?  Why set that up now?  Why aren't they more effectively setting up Lan's relationship with Rand, which in the early books, are as important as his relationship with Nynave?

They paid a lot of money for Rosamund Pike and you better believe they're going to use her as much as possible to justify it, even it means making Rand a side character with little focus.

Edited December 3, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Borderlander]

I am curious to know what non-readers think about Steppin committing suicide and the Aes Sedai/Warder bond in general. I know they have mentioned the bond a handful of times, but is it clear to non-readers that this is actually a magical, almost tangible, unbreakable bond, or is it coming across as "well, we've been working together for so long, and are maybe in a romantic relationship, and we've grown really close over the years and really bonded." ?

 

I wonder, because it is instrumental in understanding how severe Steppin's grief is. If you don't know the bond is actually a magical link, literally weaving your two spirts together, then Steppin's suicide is, to me, less believable. (I'm trying to tiptoe around this sensitive issue carefully.) He is a battle-hardened warrior; he's killed many men, presumably, and seen countless people die. And we all lose people we love in this world, and experience heart-wracking grief, but committing suicide after a loved one dies is not terribly common. So if the Warder bond is not clearly understood before Steppin's death, then it's just a guy who's extremely heartbroken and chooses to end it. Which is as incredibly sad story, but... not exactly a Wheel of Time story?

 

Whereas if you understand the bond, you know that his grief is magically multiplied almost beyond human comprehension, and his suicide becomes more of a near-inevitability, rather than a tragic decision by someone who just can't see past the temporary grief. Which has huge ramifications for all other Wards and Aes Sedai, obviously, since even the most stoic among them know that having their bond snapped is basically a death sentence.

 

I think it comes across fine for book-readers in the few conversations and all the subtle, heartfelt looks between Lan and Moiraine, for instance, but I would love to hear if anyone is watching with a non-reader if they are really picking up on all that, since I can't quite tell if the magical nature of the bond has been made explicit?

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Deviations said:

The long run is how many books away when Lan's bond is handed off?  Why set that up now?  Why aren't they more effectively setting up Lan's relationship with Rand, which in the early books, are as important as his relationship with Nynave?

It's not just about Lan's bond though. It's about the bond as a concept. There are so many different points where the bond is important:

Spoiler

Allana and Rand; Rand and Avi; Rand and Elayne; Siuan and Bryne; Elayne and the babies.

I think this episode is an effective way of setting the stakes surrounding the Warder bond. It raises the stakes for a number of future plotlines. 

[AusLeviathan]

2 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

I am curious to know what non-readers think about Steppin committing suicide and the Aes Sedai/Warder bond in general. I know they have mentioned the bond a handful of times, but is it clear to non-readers that this is actually a magical, almost tangible, unbreakable bond, or is it coming across as "well, we've been working together for so long, and are maybe in a romantic relationship, and we've grown really close over the years and really bonded." ?

What probably doesn't help is that they've strongly linked the bond to sexual relationships in the show, even suggesting that Stepin becoming Alanna's warder would involve him becoming involved in her poly relationship for some reason. Basically the opposite of the books where a sexual relationship was comparatively rare for an Aes Sedai and Warder.

 

I could easily see people not really understanding what the bond exactly is.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

the magical nature of the bond has been made explicit?

It kind of has. They talked about 'passing the bond' and 'being bonded'. But I agree that it would have been nice to have a little more clarity on that point. I would hope that we will see a bonding soon. Maybe via flashback.

[Rand the Plumber]

LOIAL!  Okay, so he is at least a foot too short, but the actor has nailed him, and I loved his dialogue.  Especially loved the way he was about to go off into a discourse about a particular topic, on at least one occasion, and was brought up short by hasty humans talking about something else.  The expression on his face was subtle, but conveyed much.

 

TAR VALON!  THE WHITE TOWER! pretty much exactly how I imagined them.  The White Tower, in particular, looks hyper-real, as if it is more massive, contains more sheer existence than everything around it.

 

I thought that the ring being cast "into the fires of Mount Doom" was a bit overdone, but I like the symbolism of a dead sister's ring being returned to a pool of molten gold, from which is drawn the metal to make new rings for novices.  It makes Valda's little collection of rings all the more offensive.

 

Do I like how Mat is being portrayed as descending into madness?  No, I don't.  This was an "I hate Mat" episode.

 

I liked (well, loathed) the Whitecloaks in this episode but, so far, Perrin's wolf arc is not grabbing me, and I don't like the wolves.  Sorry.

 

I now get what some people have been saying about the sets looking too clean and polished: the grubbiness seems artificial.  It detracts from the atmosphere.

 

deep breath

 

It's not the books, and seems - at least, to me - to be increasingly deviating from the story of the books.  But it is still Randland.  I'm glad I haven't read the books for a few years, or I would probably be more upset.  As it is, I'm content to watch it, to enjoy it, as a new story, based on WoT but having its own rhythm.

 

Still watching.

[DermidAjala]

  

6 minutes ago, Deviations said:

At least he'd had enough training to know how to stand and hold it correctly.  None of that has been established at this point.

 

He spent 10 days with Lan up to this point, the majority of them on the run. It set them up but we're really not short changing that by not showing a campfire training scene at night.

 

3 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

Part of this is also his relationship with Lan to build, Duty is heavier than a mountain,. no room for love but only duty, eventually sheathing the sword, etc.  Those are themes that play through the whole series.

 

These are all themes that don't even happen until book 2 when Lan and Rand spend the most concentrated amount of time together (over a month at Fal Dara).

 

I will bemoan it if we don't see them closer in season 2 because it is a good relationship and underpins Rand's journey in a lot of ways, but I see no reason to worry as of now.

 

3 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

I am curious to know what non-readers think about Steppin committing suicide and the Aes Sedai/Warder bond in general. I know they have mentioned the bond a handful of times, but is it clear to non-readers that this is actually a magical, almost tangible, unbreakable bond, or is it coming across as "well, we've been working together for so long, and are maybe in a romantic relationship, and we've grown really close over the years and really bonded." ?

 

I like watching non-reader reactions to see how things hit with a different audience and most people seem to be getting the gist that there's a magical component. The stuff with Moiraine being emotional when Lan drinks and Stepin feeling Kerene's death last ep teed it up for most already.

[DojoToad]

6 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

I am curious to know what non-readers think about Steppin committing suicide and the Aes Sedai/Warder bond in general. I know they have mentioned the bond a handful of times, but is it clear to non-readers that this is actually a magical, almost tangible, unbreakable bond, or is it coming across as "well, we've been working together for so long, and are maybe in a romantic relationship, and we've grown really close over the years and really bonded." ?

 

I wonder, because it is instrumental in understanding how severe Steppin's grief is. If you don't know the bond is actually a magical link, literally weaving your two spirts together, then Steppin's suicide is, to me, less believable. (I'm trying to tiptoe around this sensitive issue carefully.) He is a battle-hardened warrior; he's killed many men, presumably, and seen countless people die. And we all lose people we love in this world, and experience heart-wracking grief, but committing suicide after a loved one dies is not terribly common. So if the Warder bond is not clearly understood before Steppin's death, then it's just a guy who's extremely heartbroken and chooses to end it. Which is as incredibly sad story, but... not exactly a Wheel of Time story?

 

Whereas if you understand the bond, you know that his grief is magically multiplied almost beyond human comprehension, and his suicide becomes more of a near-inevitability, rather than a tragic decision by someone who just can't see past the temporary grief. Which has huge ramifications for all other Wards and Aes Sedai, obviously, since even the most stoic among them know that having their bond snapped is basically a death sentence.

 

I think it comes across fine for book-readers in the few conversations and all the subtle, heartfelt looks between Lan and Moiraine, for instance, but I would love to hear if anyone is watching with a non-reader if they are really picking up on all that, since I can't quite tell if the magical nature of the bond has been made explicit?

Excellent points.  I don't feel they set up the magical link through the first 4 episodes

[TheDreadReader]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Mat could have told his little sisters about the Forsaken to scare them in episode 1.  No idols necessary.

 

But, that would break the character building that they are doing with Mat.

 

Just because Mat's mom calls him a prick and starts to call his sisters bitches that doesn't mean that Mat should then immediately kick the dog in response especially if you are going for Mat is a good, caring, hero in the midst of difficult circumstances.

 

Adding the forsaken stuff here makes the most sense plot wise.  We've seen Ballzy in the dreams.  We have Ishy referenced in two episodes now.  Most likely they are laying the groundwork for us to see Ishy in person in the next couple of episodes.

 

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But instead we had Moiraine confronting Nynaeve at the sacred pool.

 

Which is in line with the multi-episode focus they have put on Moiraine and Nynaeve's character development.

 

After five episodes, they are clearly focusing on building Nynaeve's character.  I suspect that will result in Egwene at the Tower being an equivalent focus for season two.   In order to do that you have to help establish a lot of tower stuff in season one to build off of which is largely what they are doing in this episode.

 

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

One of the Aes Sedai or warders mentioned something like "Stepin was feeling Kerene's death as if something died inside him".

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

2 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I sincerely apologize. I did feel way over the top. Bad analogy & totally ok if the Mods delete!

My reaction may have been a bit over-the-top as well/knee-jerky.

 

With that said, thank you so much for the apology. This is the sort of humanity that I fell in love with during the early days of DM.

 

We all say/post things in the moment that might not land the way we hoped. You're an example of handling the situation with grace. My goal is to display the same grace you have during similar moments.

 

Tai'shar Wolfbrother31!

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

But, that would break the character building that they are doing with Mat.

 

Just because Mat's mom calls him a prick and starts to call his sisters bitches that doesn't mean that Mat should then immediately kick the dog in response especially if you are going for Mat is a good, caring, hero in the midst of difficult circumstances.

 

Adding the forsaken stuff here makes the most sense plot wise.  We've seen Ballzy in the dreams.  We have Ishy referenced in two episodes now.  Most likely they are laying the groundwork for us to see Ishy in person in the next couple of episodes.

 

 

Which is in line with the multi-episode focus they have put on Moiraine and Nynaeve's character development.

 

After five episodes, they are clearly focusing on building Nynaeve's character.  I suspect that will result in Egwene at the Tower being an equivalent focus for season two.   In order to do that you have to help establish a lot of tower stuff in season one to build off of which is largely what they are doing in this episode.

 

 

 

Where is that coming from?  Guess I wasn't clear, sorry.

 

When I said Mat was telling his sisters about the Forsaken to scare them - it was meant to be in the mischievous big brother sense.  Big brothers and sisters love pranking/scaring younger siblings.  Not sure how we got to kicking a dog.

 

Forsaken lore was addressed in EF.  And could have been here.  Tower focus may be a focus for the show but didn't need to be.

[TheDreadReader]

14 minutes ago, Rand the Plumber said:

It's not the books, and seems - at least, to me - to be increasingly deviating from the story of the books.  But it is still Randland.  I'm glad I haven't read the books for a few years, or I would probably be more upset.  As it is, I'm content to watch it, to enjoy it, as a new story, based on WoT but having its own rhythm.

 

 

I see a lot of elements in this episode as bringing things back towards the books overall.   There are elements of things that happen in Baerlon and Caemlyn that are referenced and included in this episode.  So, it is possible that while locations are changed the events are still possible to occur.  We'll have to see if they include them.

 

For example, multiple Fain sightings.  In Baerlon, Rand meets Fain, while Fain is sneaking around while in this episode we see Fain sneaking around.  Rand doesn't see or interact with him but parts of that event are present in Tar Valon so we might see a Rand/Fain interaction at some point or other Fain-related things will happen soon.

 

 

[Borderlander]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It kind of has. They talked about 'passing the bond' and 'being bonded'. But I agree that it would have been nice to have a little more clarity on that point. I would hope that we will see a bonding soon. Maybe via flashback.

 

I could see a scene playing out next week maybe where Nyneave is struggling to understand why Steppin did it, and worrying that perhaps her words to him ("Trust me, the pain will never go away") pushed him over the edge... but then Moiraine or Lan use the opportunity to explain a little more in depth about the nature of the bond, and how many Warders who lose their Aes Sedai end up committing suicide-by-trolloc or something similar, and how it would have actually been more surprising to those in the Tower if Steppin had overcome his grief and lived on.

 

Which in turn should make Nyneave eventually bonding Lan so much more powerful because the viewer clearly understands that they are taking each other's lives into their hands in a very real way.

 

[Beidomon]

57 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

Episode 5 is finished and we still haven't mentioned blademasters yet.  Lan still hasn't shown his prowess, Rand doesn't have any special relationship with Lan and hasn't practiced swords, we haven't had special mention of Tams sword, there was no Two Rivers quarterstaff competition to show some of the skills these men had growing up, no Garrth Bryne scene to point out Rands heron mark blade, no Lan killing a fade....

 

They really need to start building some of that stuff up soon.  Otherwise Rand it won't be believable for Rand to defeat a blademaster at the end of season2.  And if they delete that from the show then they have missed some of the best moments in the books

‘cause misdirection, yo. I assume we’ll get this stuff next season. As book fans, we all find it extremely annoying. Maybe it works for the general audience. I dunno. 

[Katherine]

46 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

It will be an Endgame type scene where Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine and Min all team up to take Ishy out.

Light save us from that!

 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

‘cause misdirection, yo.

I think this has less to do with misdirection and more to do with pacing and worldbuilding. I'm certain Lan & Rand bonding time is coming and some sword training with it.

[Beidomon]

29 minutes ago, Rand the Plumber said:

LOIAL! … The expression on his face was subtle, but conveyed much.

 

I’m going to need to rewatch, but I don’t recall much expression at all. His face reminds of the Burger King mascot. Looks like a wooden mask. 

 

29 minutes ago, Rand the Plumber said:

 

I now get what some people have been saying about the sets looking too clean and polished: the grubbiness seems artificial.  It detracts from the atmosphere.

Welcome aboard. 

[Maximillion]

Another disastrous episode with shallow writing.

 

 Summary:

- Steppin dead. Who cares? There was so little depth of character development the scale of the on screen mourning (with cheesy ceremony) seemed comical. 
- same for his Aes Sedai. No character development of any note. Like asking the audience to mourn the death of an extra - they devoted almost 1/3 of the episode to grieving characters that the vast majority of the viewing audience are unlikely to care about.

- Lan tricked again. Poor fellow can’t do anything right. ‘I will stay with you tonight’. Wakes up. Oops, I did it again.

- the attempt at politicking between liandrin and moiraine . Ouch, that was bad. I think of the wonderful exchanges in GoT around the politics and there is no comparison. 
- the introduction of The Forsaken. Horrible sound editing. Couldn’t even make out everything being said. I doubt the audience even heard Ishy’s name correctly or got any insight into who he is.

- Nynaeve trying to heal Mat? In Tar Valon? All of a sudden she cares so little about him that she’s willing to risk his life instead of asking for help - in Tar Valon???
- Loial is not tall enough. I quite like the features but he is barely as tall as Rand.

- Whitecloaks … this is what I mean about bad writing. The old which  one of you is going to die dilemma. Blood and ashes! 
- Whitecloaks hanging around outside Tar Valon??? I guess they don’t really fear the one power at all.

- Valda actually letting Egwene try to channel????? What if she had been powerful??? She would have killed him. Taking quite the chance there. Again terrible writing.

- ‘one month later’. really??? the entire journey to Tar Valon from the Two Rivers has been anything but epic. It just doesn’t  have any scale. 
- it’s that recurring feeling that the show is TRYING to be epic but is the complete opposite. It feels small.

- crowd turning up to see the False Dragon??? Right. Ok. It was about 100 people. Again. Felt so small.

 

 This was the worst  of the 5 episodes and that is saying something.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Maximillion