tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Bruan]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That's why I tried to imply the story still follows a good portion of the same path

well, I’m not seeing a good portion of the same path yet, just a lot of detours and stoplights at different intersections on different streets... I want to see how they made it through the industrial park and ghetto like they did in the book, but I’m seeing a lot of side trips to the green spaces and China town. Maybe I’m just jaded, but I must say as a long awaited adaptation of my most beloved collection of books of all time, I’m feeling quite let down. I expected so much more from something bearing the name ‘The Wheel of Time’. The only thing worse has to be that old video game where you played an Aes Sedai shooting at bad guys with an angreal like it was some kind of ray gun...

[grayavatar]

2 hours ago, Bruan said:

No, your metaphor is quite good. It also highlights the problems I’m having with the show. You see, the story isn’t the destination. The story is the path taken to the destination. You change that path, you change the story. We could both start out in a suburb and walk to city hall. I choose to go through the industrial park and the ghetto. You choose to walk through the green spaces and China town. It doesn’t really matter that we both end up at city hall, we’ll each be telling our own and very different story about the trip.

Well said. Also it isn't really about the destination. Anyone can go to that destination. The story is about the people and whether you feel invested in them. There has not been enough focus on the main characters for us to know them. They feel generic.

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-reviews/wheel-of-time-review-1235048788/

 

"Judkins is in much more of a rush, and it’s only one episode before the characters, who barely have names, much less personalities, are galloping away. What follows is a monotonous and fairly predictable series of jaunts from one town to the next, from one encounter with threatening strangers to the next, from one contrived separation of the group’s members to the next. I never felt like I was watching an unfolding story, but I absolutely felt like I was watching the whiteboard in a writers room, more the pushing of note cards toward a destination than an adventure."

 

Also

"...but it’s definitely like watching somebody else film their visit to a Wheel of Time theme park on an iPhone. It’s not the real thing, and you’re not really there, and, in and of itself, it’s almost shockingly devoid of artistry or narrative momentum. But its adjacency to a thing that lots of people love is likely to prove sufficient for many of them."

 

It's so true. ?

Edited December 6, 2021 by grayavatar
added one word

[LordyLord]

I think this Review below succintly explains the issue with the episode and to an extent the whole series.

 

Its a very objective critique

 

[grayavatar]

35 minutes ago, LordyLord said:

I think this Review below succintly explains the issue with the episode and to an extent the whole series.

 

Its a very objective critique

 

 

"I don't think we have a single scene from the book" LOL. No mucking about. I like this girl.

6.5 is too generous for this episode though.

 

Anyway she has said everything I am thinking far better than I could say it, and much more politely.

[notpropaganda73]

I'll be honest, this episode is what I feared for the show before it came out. It's without a doubt the worst of the series so far for me, even with some good elements to it. 

 

I think this episode really highlights the problems with the limited episodes they've been given by the studio. The entire story of Stepin and the showing the importance of the bond and what happens to a Warder when their Aes Sedai dies - that's all great in my opinion and really important to show for non-book readers. But when you only have 8 episodes and the story is supposed to be about the Dragon Reborn and our 5 Emond's Fielders, and episode like this takes the focus away so significantly that it actually feels like Stepin and the Aes Sedai/Warder relationship is the most important part of the whole story. 

 

I think an issue that the show has had is making us care about the Emond's Fielders and to relate some of the wider world-building to our main group. It's been difficult to connect to them at times, especially (imo) Egwene and Rand. I sometimes take a step back and try to think, do I like their scenes because it reminds me of the books, and I like what they did in that scene? Or is the show working on it's own merits? The Loial - Rand scene is a good example of this. I liked the look of Loial to be honest, him being shorter doesn't bother me, I think you can tell there is good chemistry between the actors there. But then I think - does the quick mention of the Karaethon Cycle and Jain Fairstrider just colour my whole perception of the scene? Do I like it because of what it hints at, because of what I know about Rand and Loial from the books, or do I like it because of what I'm seeing on the show? 

 

I must admit I was really underwhelmed and disappointed by this episode, after really enjoying episode 4. I am still watching of course and still think there are lots of good elements to the show. Even within this episode there was a lot of things that I liked, but overall was just left a bit disappointed. My post is probably a bit scattered, I find it hard to pinpoint things that I specifically liked or disliked, more just a feeling from the episode. I did love the wide shot of Tar Valon and Dragonmount though.

 

Mostly, I really hope we get proper focus on the Emond's Fielders going forward. 

[Hurinsnuser]

I think I read most of this thread. But I'm not sure if I saw these 2 questions discussed.

 

1. Did they gender switch Jain Farestrader to Jane Farestrader as a woman? First I interpreted it as egwene admiring the man Jain Farestrader and wanting to be him reborn as they made it a man can be reborn a woman. But after watching it again it seems Rand is talking about her as Jane and being a woman while on her adventures. 

 

2. From where do you think the title of the episode comes? In the books it's from the dark prophecy. I'm not sure I see it as a fitting title of this episode.

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, Hurinsnuser said:

I think I read most of this thread. But I'm not sure if I saw these 2 questions discussed.

 

1. Did they gender switch Jain Farestrader to Jane Farestrader as a woman? First I interpreted it as egwene admiring the man Jain Farestrader and wanting to be him reborn as they made it a man can be reborn a woman. But after watching it again it seems Rand is talking about her as Jane and being a woman while on her adventures. 

 

The first I'm fairly certain. He never refers to Jain as a woman just Egwene. The sub titles also say Jain for what it's worth, but I don't know if they're necessarily accurate.

[DaddyFinn]

Loial was about to say something of Jain when Rand interrupted him. Some have guessed that he was going to say Jain is still alive and is a dude or "that's not how souls work".

 

8 minutes ago, Hurinsnuser said:

2. From where do you think the title of the episode comes?

I guess either the Whitecloak torture/wolf attack or Kerene/Stepin

[Reader]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:27 PM, Agitel said:

I'm not satisfied yet with the show's explanation (or still lack there of) of how Valda is capturing sisters. There are plausible ways to do it available to Rafe. We should have been shown something.

 

But WC operating immediately around TV under Valda is in the books themselves.

I posted a Valda theory yesterday half joking, but thinking it through:

 

(posted as a spoiler but it's only speculation)

 

Spoiler

Could they actually be merging Valda's character with the Gholam?

 

 - Valda knows that Egwene can channel. Gholam can sense the ability to channel from fifty paces.

 - Valda is not worried about the one power.  Gholam are immune to it.

 - Valda's main hobby is killing Aes Sedai.  This is the sole purpose that Gholam were created for.

 - Was there blood coming out of that bird he ate in Ep 2? / is that definitly red wine in the bottle?

 - he says "you'll find me harder to kill than that"

 

The idea is let down by the fact Valda bleeds when stabbed.

 

But you never know, it might be one of the things that they're putting in to surprise book readers. Maybe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, Reader said:

Was there blood coming out of that bird he ate in Ep 2?

Valda explained that the bird's bones and legs cut his mouth. It's his blood.

 

6 minutes ago, Reader said:

is that definitly red wine in the bottle?

The liquid is not nearly as thick as blood.

 

Nice theory but I personally don't believe it for a second ?

[MasterAblar]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Loial was about to say something of Jain when Rand interrupted him. Some have guessed that he was going to say Jain is still alive and is a dude or "that's not how souls work".

 

I think he was about to say that it was very unlikely that she out of all the humans in the world would have been Jain reincarnated just because it's such a minute possibilty. I definitely don't think he was gonna say anything about souls. Pretty sure character's in the show simply don't know how souls work (other than maybe the Forsaken).

Edited December 6, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Hurinsnuser]

14 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

The first I'm fairly certain. He never refers to Jain as a woman just Egwene. The sub titles also say Jain for what it's worth, but I don't know if they're necessarily accurate.

As far as I can tell Rand says while talking of Egwene "She thought she was Jain herself reincarnated". English is not my first language, but if Jain is a man wouldn't the correct statement be "She thought she was Jain himself reincarnated"? 

My first interpretation was the same as yours but like I said watching it again it seems like they swapped the genders. Especially in combination with putting in egwene there instead of Rand saying he enjoyed the book himself and it reminded him of Tam. Might not be the case just wondering of the implications further down in the story if this actually is a switch. 

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Hurinsnuser said:

As far as I can tell Rand says while talking of Egwene "She thought she was Jain herself reincarnated".

I just checked and he says exactly like that

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, Hurinsnuser said:

As far as I can tell Rand says while talking of Egwene "She thought she was Jain herself reincarnated". English is not my first language, but if Jain is a man wouldn't the correct statement be "She thought she was Jain himself reincarnated"? 

My first interpretation was the same as yours but like I said watching it again it seems like they swapped the genders. Especially in combination with putting in egwene there instead of Rand saying he enjoyed the book himself and it reminded him of Tam. Might not be the case just wondering of the implications further down in the story if this actually is a switch. 

 

Hmmm. Interesting, just watched it and you're right it does say herself. I feel like you would say himself normally yes. Guess we'll find out if they introduce Jain into the show. Don't really see any reason to gender swap him to be honest but who knows, could be they did, could be a mistake.

[Scarloc99]

16 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

So yesterday I watched E5 as the culmination of a binge of the entire season to date.  I also have been rereading the books and am nearly done with The Shadow Rising.   I posted more general comments about the series trajectory in the Accepting the Adaptation thread.  Let me just say here it isn't good. 

 

From a S5 perspective I thought they should have put the money they saved in not having to CGI/VFX Caemlyn which is where the events of this episode take place in the book.  I was very disappointed  in Tar Valon. Clearly the VFX artist never read the description of the city in the books nor did they try to duplicate them.   Very very disappointing and not promising when we visit the other great cities.  That makes me wonder if we are going to ever go to Caemlyn??  What about Tear?

 

The writing team has pretty much abandoned the original story line at this point.  In my imaginings I had envisioned cuts but not complete reworking for no good reason that I can see.  Lot's of speculation about Liandrin /Elaida but what about Moraine?  They have sunk a whole lot of effort into her character and she is the acknowledged star but she has a giant time out in the books.  What is gonna happen there?  On the positive side I did think the Ewegene/Perrin experience with the Whitecloaks was probably an equivalent story to RJ's version of events.  it is an example of rewriting to make it better for TV perhaps but staying reasonably in synch with the story.  In any event this  episode changes so much that it is clear to me that they are never coming back to an adaptation.  It is now a based on story.

 

Moraine is not a borderlander as noted by others.   

 

More Warder lore was a positive addition.

 

Loial's character was excellently portrayed and will be a great addition to the story going forward as he was in the books .  Couldn't they have found some way to make him taller?

 

Melting the ring another positive addition symbolically if entirely new.  All hail LOTR.

 

I was glad to see glints of the iron will that makes Ewegene one of my most loved characters.   Do not muck up this or I may quit watching.

 

In summary this episode explodes the book WOT story plot markers like the visit to Caemyln.  We are in blank whiteboard land where literally anything can happen.  If Nynaeve is revealed as the Dragon Reborn it won't take the story much further into the woods than the writers seem to be going.  This episode has a lot of important aspects done poorly so am feeling a lot more sad about the series which I always hoped would be great.

 

 

 

With regards to VFW Rafe stated that these where impacted by Covid and there was an acceptance that they where not where they needed to be. 

 

As for the Story I have a different take on this. This is not Blank whiteboard land, all the key story beats that need to be hit so far have been. I have mentioned before the whole aim of the story is to get Rand (who will be the dragon despite this myth people have that Rafe is changing that), to the Last Battle and ensure the pieces are in place for that battle to resolve. 

 

Anything that does not directly relate to that story thread can and, in my opinion, should be cut or reworked to make it viable for a 64 hour show. Peter Jackson did just this with LOTR, he cut out anything that was not directly linked to the journey of the ring to mount doom, or the attempts made to distract Sauron and keep him looking elsewhere. He added scenes (Aragorn and the Wargs), he changed characters (Arwen saving Frodo) and he changed the ending (no scouring of the shire) and yet as far as I remember no one picked it apart as much as this has been and in many ways they could have done. 

 

Up to episode 5 Rafe may have changed the way the characters get there but fundamentally they are all in the same position emotionally and physically as they are at this point in the book. 

 

Rand has used the one power (to break down the door) without understanding he was doing it. 

Mat has the knife and it is affecting him. 

Perrin has had his first contact with wolves, his eyes have gone yellow and white cloaks will now be hunting for him. We also know Perrin has a berserker streak in him, and while I do not agree fully with the choice to have him kill his wife, I can understand exactly why that choice was made. 

Logain has been gentled, this has been shown rather then simply told, which to my mind is important for the series as this will be a constant thread through the books and it is important to let the audience know what this important thing is and what it does. Thom explains what gentling is, but Logain we have now seen it take place and the key thing, the change in personality that will come from that. Once Nyn heals him viewers will have a point of reference to see how he behaves once healed. 

We have seen and understood the bond, met the Aes Sedai who will one day Bond Rand, and then have to drop that bond seconds before she is killed. This is fantastic foreshadowing because early on the audience understand the impact to a warder if the Aes Sedai dies. 

We have seen Shadar Logath, a city who's only importance in the books are to produce the knife that injures Rand, and to clean the Taint. 

We have met Trollocs and Fades and we know they are evil and kill children. 

 

Yes we didn't see Caemlyn, but we also didnt see Barleon, what would that have added at this moment in time? Another main character to introduce at this early stage, it would mean Rand meets Elayne before he meets Min, which throws the timeline all out and we would simply see some town interaction. You lose an episode but gain nothing in return, I don;t know what you take away that isn't key information for the non book reader to know and doesn't need showing somewhere. 

 

The adaption can't be a scene for scene or even timeline adaptation as you have said but  the moment you cut one thing out you have to then adjust everything else to make it all fit, It is far easier to start at the end, the last battle, list everything that needs to have happened to get there and then walk backwards, using the source material to pick out key scenes as you go and then create new scenes or situations in order to convey in one moment what in the books takes chapters and chapters. So far the world I am seeing is how I see the WOT, the way characters are acting either matches how I pictured it, or, where it is different I am happy with the change and it doesn't take me out of the world. 

 

As for Moraine, I can see them writing her out for a season and then getting her back at the end. That is easy enough to do and frees her up to spend a year in London in a play, or doing something for TV or a movie. I don't see them combining her character as has been suggested by other people. 

[Scarloc99]

9 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I just checked and he says exactly like that

This feeds even more into my thoughts that Rand cut Loial off from saying, that isn't possible as Jain is a man and She is a women so he would not be resurrected as her. 

I can see at some point Loial looking at them all as they look in surprise that Rand and not Nyn is the dragon and he says, "But the Dragon could never be a women, just like your friend could never be Jain Farstrider, the wheel spins us out always into the same gender we where before". 

[Scarloc99]

17 hours ago, Andromedus said:

I miss the training with Lan as well wonder if they will use another time skip to cover this or focus on it in season 2 at the beginning.  I do really hope they get the swordsmanship and it's importance correct 

 

"When the sun turns green" is one of my fave quotes/moments

The MOST important moment of this scene is Rand using the one power to break down a door that is supposedly un breakable. This feeds into the moments throughout the books that Rand is trapped in a supposedly un escapable situation and then uses his expanding knowledge of the power to get away. 

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

I don’t see how we “loose out on the tales.” Just because Thom doesn’t provide three hours of exposition dumping through songs in his first screen appearance doesn’t mean it won’t happen later on. 
 

I think we all need to remember that at this point in our first reading of the series we didn’t have ALL the answers, world building, and lore. This information needs to be slowly revealed in non-boring exposition dumps. Again, reminder, book vs tv (or film) is a different medium. Give it some time.

 

It’s similar to the earlier complaints about not seeing Fain in SL (ahem, which we don’t actually see in the books series).

 

I’m all for criticism, especially if comparing up to the equivalent of the book series (slightly halfway through EotW) but it’s ridiculous, and unfair, to expect that they can magically upload all this information into our brains within the first 5 episodes (we’re not Neo from the Matrix).

This is the main reason I am really pleased they have not shown the Prologue of the books yet, starting out in a ruined high tech environment showing people wearing high tech clothing spoils all of this. 

 

I also agree, for non book readers the information that is key to the story is being put across. Gentling, The bond, trollocs, faders, and dark friends etc. it is being delivered in a non exposition dump way in easy to swallow bites that are sinking in. For instance Gentling, Thom tells, then it is shown with Logain. Warders, we are told and then shown about the Bond. This isn't just a story telling approach but is also used in all forms of education to help details and facts sink in. There is alot of information a casual viewer needs to understand and it is important they don't feel lost, or even worse, stupid for not already knowing "all the details". 

[mogi68]

5 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

That game is great..........

 

 

Loved the Balefire ter'angreal. I remember the Ways being actually creepy - Machin Shin was a expanding fog of twisted/horrified faces

 

Would be cool if it looked like that in the show

[Deviations]

6 hours ago, Bruan said:

No, your metaphor is quite good. It also highlights the problems I’m having with the show. You see, the story isn’t the destination. The story is the path taken to the destination. You change that path, you change the story. We could both start out in a suburb and walk to city hall. I choose to go through the industrial park and the ghetto. You choose to walk through the green spaces and China town. It doesn’t really matter that we both end up at city hall, we’ll each be telling our own and very different story about the trip.

I also agree that the metaphor is good.  My problem is that they clearly don't have the time or the budget to cover the whole original story.  So why take even more away from the original story with these pointless side shows?  I don't think it's valid to say that the side shows have some other purpose (developing the viewers understanding of the warder bond for example).  Why do that now and in this ham handed manner?  Jordan did that through the original story!

[grayavatar]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

This is the main reason I am really pleased they have not shown the Prologue of the books yet, starting out in a ruined high tech environment showing people wearing high tech clothing spoils all of this. 

 

I also agree, for non book readers the information that is key to the story is being put across. Gentling, The bond, trollocs, faders, and dark friends etc. it is being delivered in a non exposition dump way in easy to swallow bites that are sinking in. For instance Gentling, Thom tells, then it is shown with Logain. Warders, we are told and then shown about the Bond. This isn't just a story telling approach but is also used in all forms of education to help details and facts sink in. There is alot of information a casual viewer needs to understand and it is important they don't feel lost, or even worse, stupid for not already knowing "all the details". 

Without the prologue or Caemlyn this story is just a bunch of villagers running around the woods with a pretty tower at the end.

[ManetherenTaveren]

3 hours ago, LordyLord said:

I think this Review below succinctly explains the issue with the episode and to an extent the whole series.

That was a good listen. Her review has constructive and satisfying insights regarding the many unconvincing aspects of the show. Thanks. A cool, calm, and collected take on the surprisingly immature flaws on cinematography and directing of the episode. She might be my new favorite reviewer. Wish I had her nearby to debate other relevant issues with. Thanks again.

[WhiteVeils]

11 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Now that you mention Olver series Mat appears to be much more likely to take on an orphan girl than an orphan boy due to the concern for his (much younger than book) sisters and the Grindwell girl killed by the fade (probably).

I think he just cares about kids in general, so I wouldn't say much more. From the only scene we've had with a little boy, it was clear Rand thought Mat was acting WAY out of character to snap at the little boy.

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, Deviations said:

My problem is that they clearly don't have the time or the budget to cover the whole original story.  So why take even more away from the original story with these pointless side shows? 

Because of time and budget issues it could be even more difficult to recreate original moments and storylines in a good and faithful way? These Logain and Stepin storylines and episodes as a whole explain a lot of important lore that the audience will remember and understand in future seasons and they also condense book moments. There's not that much stuff that's completely missing at this point. Many plotlines and moments have just been replaced and reworked to fit the episodes.

[Gothic Flame]

6 hours ago, Bruan said:

No, your metaphor is quite good. It also highlights the problems I’m having with the show. You see, the story isn’t the destination. The story is the path taken to the destination.

Very well put.

It's amazing that Rafe & Co. imagined they could do the books any justice since a lot deals with growing the characters and revealing the depth of others.