tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

The character development in the books as written by RJ is several levels above the shallow writing in the show.

Jordan did a phenomenal job over the course of 10+ novels. But to claim that there was major character development for anyone other than Rand in EotW is just nonsense.

[dog421]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Only it's not shallow. It's just not deliberately confusing. 

We all get that you don't like it. And I find the irony of your obvious hate watching delicious.

Shallow isn't the problem, it's the fact that by making the characters go around telling everyone what they are thinking they have removed one of the main themes of the show, which is that everyone is secretive and working towards their own goals at the expense of others. In the books, they accomplished the task of letting people know what a character was thinking through narration and through explaining things to the main characters from the two rivers. They could have done that in this show, but instead they have a green explaining to a red that a red should be the one to explain that the law applies to sisters as well, which is a very unnatural conversation to have. Why are the aes sedai and warders explaining to each other how things work with aes sedai and warders. Why is Nyneave explaining to a warder that she doesn't trust that the aes sedai she doesn't trust is a snake. Even for a country bumpkin from the two rivers it should seem like common sense not to something about someone you don't trust, to someone else you don't trust that works for the same organization you don't trust. A lot of the writing is just lazy like that.

[ArrylT]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

At the same time, having repeated red herrings pulled across your path can break trust as well.  It's Nynaeve, no it's Mat, Perrin, Egwene...  It can be very effective if done well once in a movie/show but to do it over and over again makes the watcher feel stupid (at least for me) and be on their guard against where else they might be screwing with me.  Then I'm not as invested, because why go to all the trouble figuring things out when a rabbit will just get pulled out of the hat later?

 

I hear you, I think - sometimes too many plot twists is as troublesome as not enough plot twists.     

 

My opinion on tv shows is that the key to a successful show, for new followers at least, is that you want them to be able to follow it, and be on the same level of understanding as the characters, or maybe 1 level ahead (if you want the audience to enjoy an aha moment for the character).   However you do not want them too far ahead or too complacent.

 

So if there are not enough twists or adjustments to keep people on their toes, then the audience gets too far ahead and feels we we know the end result, which if we are not invested enough, means not being hooked enough to keep watching.  And because a large portion of the book readers are the kind that have read WOT upteen times, they're more in it for that familiar journey, and less for the traditional tv experience.

 

Ironically enough, and this is mentioned in an article I posted on another thread -  one of the key differences between GOT (show and books) & WOT is that GOT made you fear for the characters you were invested in, while WOT made you hope for the characters journey.   So I can see for some that the adjustments bring a sense of worry for some about whether that journey will still occur.

 

The WOT show I think is trying to do its best to give that specific GOT vibe (fear for the safety of the characters), without actually crossing over to being GOT, along with maintaining the level of plot twists to keep the audience engaged but not feeling confused/misled,  along with staying true to the spirit & as much of the letter as possible - however, at least the sense that I am getting, is this is a concern for many who have been on the WOT ride of hope in the books - so it is a narrow tight rope to walk upon.

 

Obviously it has not succeeded as much as it would have liked in regards to the percentage of book fans.  I certainly cannot predict accurate numbers but I am thinking they would have wanted like oh say a 75/25 percentage but it is probably closer to a 60/40 or 55/45%.  Who knows though.  I do not think it is enough to "kill" the show, but it is enough to have a vocal minority that could have some adjustment (similar to how Star Wars tried to adjust in the final trilogy).  But we'll see.

 

In todays era, we have seen too much of people promising one thing and delivering another - which has crept into the entertainment industry.   So while I firmly believe Rafe fully intends to deliver on the promise* - I can totally see why for so many it is harder for others to trust.  Because even the best of intentions can be ruined if the outcome is beyond your control - ie the usual meddling of corporate on showrunners.  And unfortunately, while I do not see it, for many they are not in a position to fully trust Rafe (but I hope many will keep trying to and the final episodes of S1 will add extra proof).

 

In the end, so long as the show continues, I simply do not see that trust I have placed in the show to portray WOT being misplaced - except by Amazon cancelling prematurely without warning - I could live if they announced well in advance Season Y was the last.   Rafe & all of his crew are well aware (imho) of how GOT ended (this is encapsulated in a lot of the AMAs he has participated in) - and I feel that they know that if they did not stick the landing the uproar in comparison to how GOT finished would be like the difference between Siuan pre & post stilling.

 

But that is just my hope.  While I have adjusted some of what I was expecting/looking for in the show (ie I can live without Baerlon - especially since we never go back there ever - after EOTW it gets 1 very brief mention - and we do get Min eventually)  - I still have my own criteria for what is the heart & soul of WOT for me.  And so far every episode after E1 has kept my faith.  

 

Sorry for the long ramble.

 

* - of not just Rand being the Dragon Reborn, but of all the other major building blocks of what makes WOT WOT (of course you'll never get 100 people to all agree on what all those are but hopefully 80-85% will end up at the end of it agreeing).  

[KakitaOCU]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

She is already all these things in the show. By this point in the books she was just the angry lady who hit people with sticks.

Hey, let's be fair, by this point in the books she was the angry person who hit people with sticks, ignored the Women's Circle and the Village council and knew how to track.  ?

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

My wife picked it up.  He picks up the dagger, we don't see him escape from Mashadar, we see it creeping on him then Rand gets the door open.  Then episode 4 it's creeping on him.   So..  yeah...

Yeah, pretty much all of my non-book reading friends were screaming at the TV for Mat not to pick up the dagger. They all intuitively understood that the thing is bad news.

[Sabio]

13 minutes ago, dog421 said:

Accidentally killed, while swinging an axe in self-defense is not really the same thing as murder, but agreed, that he did not admit it. It is clear that he never told anyone, but ambiguous as to whether or not other people know. The way they tell him that it is not his fault, kind of only makes sense if they know, because you would never tell him it isn't his fault that one of the 200, 10 foot tall 500-pound demons that bum rushed the village ate his wife.

This might be looking at it through modern time.  But if you just turn around and go Friday the 13th Jason on someone with a machete who's behind you simply because you assume it's a bad guy, Then it turns out to be your wife just seems rather criminal not to mention Perin then covering up the crime by making everyone think an innocent Trolloc did it.

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Only it's not shallow. It's just not deliberately confusing. 

We all get that you don't like it. And I find the irony of your obvious hate watching delicious.

Shallow and formulaic IMO. 
glad I am giving you some joy?

[Harad the White]

Another homage to LoTR, both Book and Amazon:

 

The Dagger to Matt = the Ring to Frodo.

It will interesting how they portray it, and how long before the reveal.

[Gothic Flame]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Jordan did a phenomenal job over the course of 10+ novels. But to claim that there was major character development for anyone other than Rand in EotW is just nonsense.

Compared to the utter tripe you have now masquerading as an adaptation I disagree.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Spelling

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Jordan did a phenomenal job over the course of 10+ novels. But to claim that there was major character development for anyone other than Rand in EotW is just nonsense.

what? 

did you skim read it?

Every single one of the traits I listed for Nynaeve came through in EOTW.

 The writing stimulates the imagination in the books.

 In the TV series it’s just a smash in the mouth one dimensional explosion on screen.

 

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Then it turns out to be your wife just seems rather criminal not to mention Perin then covering up the crime by making everyone think an innocent Trolloc did it.

It's not a "crime" and it's not mandatory to advertise it, in a situation where you are running for your lives. I know many N&Ns admit to all their faults, but some are more closed-mouthed.

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, Sabio said:

This might be looking at it through modern time.  But if you just turn around and go Friday the 13th Jason on someone with a machete who's behind you simply because you assume it's a bad guy, Then it turns out to be your wife just seems rather criminal not to mention Perin then covering up the crime by making everyone think an innocent Trolloc did it.

 

Maybe I am seeing it differently from others, but I didn't think Perrin was trying to swing at anyone there. 

 

They did it better than I had dreaded - after hearing people say he killed her in an animalistic rage

[Sabio]

Nyn and Mat I would say had the best character development over the series.  Nyn to me especially grew from a bossy I am in charge type to seeing that's how other's were treating Rand and that Rand needed more a support type to listen to him and aid him' Not force him like she once might of tried.  Perin and Egwene are the two I would say never changed and stayed super annoying throughout.  

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sabio

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

what? 

did you skim read it?

Every single one of the traits I listed for Nynaeve came through in EOTW.

 The writing stimulates the imagination in the books.

 In the TV series it’s just a smash in the mouth one dimensional explosion on screen.

 

EotW is a weak book.  It is Tolkien light and one of my biggest critiques of Tolkien his his lack of characterization and poor ability to develop people as people.

I've successfully had friends start the series with The Great Hunt and other than a few questions about the What that had happened there were no concerns or confusion and going back to read EotW was a slog.

[Harad the White]

Just now, Sabio said:

Perin and Egwene are the two I would say never changed and stayed super annoying throughout.  

Perrin definitely changed from a country bumpkin to an adept in the Dreamworld. Egwene remained super-annoying which was her super power. It's mandatory for the Seat.

[WhiteVeils]

Some Notes...

 

Sarah Nakamura (the book expert for the show) said she thought Logain was biding his time under the shield waiting for the wards to be broken to make a real attempt to get out.

And it should be noted...

 

She has been getting death threats. 

We have to cool off the rhetoric somehow.

[dog421]

I hear people saying that the show is shallow. It is. But shallow isn't the problem, it's one of the problems. In addition to that the production quality is very lacking. Most of you aren't old enough to remember the low budget tv shows that were in syndication in the late 90's like Hercules, Renegade, and Zena the Warrior Princess, but when you flipped through the channels and landed on one of these shows, you knew from the lazy writing and cheap production value exactly the kind of show you just landed. It is very differnt from tv shows like Jack Ryan, Bosch, and Game of Thrones, which you can watch for quite a while and not know if is a high budget tv show, or a high budget movie. From the first few minutes of the very first episode, when the reds were on horseback chasing down a man that could channel, it was obvious that these were three people in costumes playing make believe. The production value was very poor, and I could not suspend my disbelief enough to get into the show. Later on the trollocs looked surprisingly good, but the special effects of them running on all fours, then up on two legs looked bad. There were lots of places where the effects or props looked bad enough to snap you out of the illusion of the show, and instead of editing it out, they just left it in. On top of that, one of the main themes of the show is that everyone outside the two rivers is playing the game of houses. By making the characters go around telling everyone what they are thinking, they have removed one of the main themes of the show, which is that everyone is secretive and working towards their own goals, at the expense of others. In the books, they accomplished the task of letting us know what a character was thinking through narration and through explaining things to the main characters from the two rivers who were all naive compared to the rest of the world. They could have done the latter in this show, but instead I had to watch  a green explaining to a red that a red should be the one to explain that the law applies to sisters as well, which is a very unnatural conversation to have in any story where both characters are aware of how reds and greens should be having. Why are the aes sedai and warders explaining to each other how things work with aes sedai and warders. Why is Nyneave explaining to a warder that she doesn't trust, that the aes sedai she doesn't trust is a snake. Even for a country bumpkin from the two rivers it should seem like common sense not to say something about someone you don't trust, to someone else you don't trust, that works for the same organization, that you don't trust. A lot of the writing is just lazy like that.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Every single one of the traits I listed for Nynaeve came through in EOTW.

If you say so. But even stipulating that they did, she has no growth or development in EotW at all. That book was Rand's story. And Rand was the only character who had much development.

 

Also every single one of the traits you listed for Nynaeve came through in the television show. So I'm not sure what your point is. I mean other than to dump on the writers.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

She has been getting death threats. 

In a world in which trying to save lives results in death threats, ofc. Calming down the rhetoric about whether Nyn is shallower in the Book or in Amazon, ain't gonna help.

[Sabio]

The flaws I see is what happens when a series keeps going from what you planned.  It went from a 6 book deal and ended up at 14.  it also to me explains alot that IMO the first 6 books are the best of the series.

 

The show is what usually happens when you try to take a series people love and make it a show.  A TV show can never capture what a book can and will almost always come off and lacking or shallow.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sabio

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Some Notes...

 

Sarah Nakamura (the book expert for the show) said she thought Logain was biding his time under the shield waiting for the wards to be broken to make a real attempt to get out.

And it should be noted...

 

She has been getting death threats. 

We have to cool off the rhetoric somehow.

There is a fundamental difference between a nut job posting death threats and people hating the show so much they are negative.

 

 

[dog421]

12 minutes ago, Sabio said:

This might be looking at it through modern time.  But if you just turn around and go Friday the 13th Jason on someone with a machete who's behind you simply because you assume it's a bad guy, Then it turns out to be your wife just seems rather criminal not to mention Perin then covering up the crime by making everyone think an innocent Trolloc did it.

I remember him swinging the axe behind him to get a strike at a trolloc in front of him. I remember him not knowing that she was there and doing it accidentally. That's not the same thing as doing it deliberately. Also, I never saw him cover it up. He just didn't tell anyone that he did it, and everyone assumed. Covering something up is very different from not correcting someone who assumed something.

[Harad the White]

17 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Shallow and formulaic IMO. 
glad I am giving you some joy?

I hate the food in the restaurant, and such small portions.

[dog421]

19 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Except Lan and Moiraine, and anyone who knew about SL, which is everyone within 100 miles, and everyone else in the world, by reputation. The ones who don't, just don't know yet, where the Dagger came from. That should be revealed around...episode 25 or so.

Episode 25? This going to be an 8-episode season. That's why they rushed things like Perrin removing the scene where Perrin and Egwene are captured by whitecloaks, and introduced Thom a lot later. Why they changed his character so much is beyond me. In fact it really made no sense that Rand was the only one suspicious of Thom after stealing their money, or why Thom was apparently ready to kill Matt if he didn't give him a good reason for being near an already dead body.

[Sabio]

Only 8 episodes?  Damn things are going to be rushed as hell, it's suppose to cover book 1 and some of book 2.  At this speed the Last Battle should happen somewhere during the Second Season.