tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Thus far has fooled several non-book readers in my orbit. In fact, all of them have guessed someone different (though one shifted from Perrin to Nyn after this last episode) and no one has picked Rand.

I'll be interested to know what they think when the Dragon is revealed.  That was bull!  They tricked me, cool!  Where did that come from?

[Maximillion]

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I know this is a popular perception - that the 'who is the Dragon' stuff is just completely unnecessary. Okay. Let's stipulate that it isn't necessary.

 

But let's approach it from the perspective of why they might have made this choice:

1. The supporting cast plays a minimal role in EotW. A bigger role for each of the EF5 is clearly necessary to get actor buy in.How many actors would sign on to a long-term project after being told, "your character is super important but we really won't do much with him/her until toward the end of Season 2?"
2. You have to include other characters to get emotional buy in from the audience. Why should we care about the rest of the EF5 if Rand is immediately disclosed as the 'chosen one?' This requires the creation of new material to get to know characters who are mostly flat and one dimensional in EotW.
3. When she arrives in Emond's Field, Moiraine does not know who the DR is. As readers, we find out almost immediately, but it's not confirmed that Moiraine knows until the events at the Eye.
4. If Moiraine doesn't know until then, what's wrong with reorganizing the first book to fit from Moiraine's perspective? It gives new viewers a little bit of mystery and something to talk/theorize about.
5. Ultimately, it changes nothing.

The characters in the book were far from flat. They are in the TV series. Flat at different ‘heights’ granted, but no nuance at all.

 The character development for all of the EF5 was far far better in the books than in screen IMO.

 

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

I'll be interested to know what they think when the Dragon is revealed.  That was bull!  They tricked me, cool!  Where did that come from?

Exactly what I think.

I don’t think a classic and quite tired misdirection strategy for the story works. 
Almost feels like the writers just dusted off a Hollywood playbook. Very unoriginal. 

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Flat at different ‘heights’ granted, but no nuance at all.

Where to begin?:

Nyn is a fighter in the non-armored sense, a healer, a proto-lover, and a bit on the prideful side.

Perrin is a friend, an artisan, a mystic, and a pillar.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

 

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you need to understand (and preferably acknowledge) that Rafe's Big Change to the lore  to "adapt the books for modern sensibilities" burned a LOT of trust. And here we are.

 

Can we start this from a different direction? 

 

I think it is certainly true that RJ changed the reincarnation by gender bc of modern understanding of gender. I'm really not sure about that response in the recent AMA, bc I don't see why he would change that - he would surely get the response he wanted more by loudly proclaiming it. 

 

We don't yet know abt strength in the Power, linking, etc. We do know from the added shorts that they've kept surrendering to Saidar and battling Saidin, which surprised me tbh. 

 

Be that as it may, is it coincidence that it is the people most offended by thus who are declaiming that the CGI is terrible, that the acting is wooden, that every change is unnecessary and/or agenda-driven? 

 

It is the same people who are upset by the Dragon change who are convinced that there is a girl power vibe throughout, that Ila speaking more than Raen is evidence of this (although she did in the book - only the first greeting with the late lamented Elyas was him), etc etc

 

Is there not a little bit of confirmation bias going on? 

 

I would add that with the noble exception of DojoToad, I haven't noticed any of the naysayers mentioning anything positive abt the show, which I think is bc they haven't seen anything positive in it. 

 

The people who have changed their minds pre/post launch (Wolfbrother from negative to positive, at least one other the opposite, not sure if any others), are few and far between

Edited November 29, 2021 by Ralph

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

It can be very effective if done well once in a movie/show but to do it over and over again

But they ... aren't? They're developing characters. They are leaving it to the viewer to draw their own conclusions. Rand's moments have been there - they've been subtle. 

[fra85uk]

And, if you establish the first season as the mistery contest of "who the Dragon is", and for doing this, you are avoiding to characterize the one that will end up being actually the DR, I fear the situation might backlash, because it will make angry the non-readers that they are trying so desperately to please.

 

 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Be that as it may, is it coincidence that it is the people most offended by thus who are declaiming that the CGI is terrible, that the acting is wooden, that every change is unnecessary and/or agenda-driven? 

The chances of that being a random occurrence are spectacularly small. 

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

The characters in the book were far from flat.

Give me an example of a character developing from EotW. 

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

At the same time, having repeated red herrings pulled across your path can break trust as well.  It's Nynaeve, no it's Mat, Perrin, Egwene...  It can be very effective if done well once in a movie/show but to do it over and over again makes the watcher feel stupid (at least for me) and be on their guard against where else they might be screwing with me.  Then I'm not as invested, because why go to all the trouble figuring things out when a rabbit will just get pulled out of the hat later?

Will it do that or does it help develop the character?

Mat is showing a lot of the negative sides of channeling.  Once it's revealed he can't channel, it'll either be a brand new question or a strong empathy depending on if the Dagger has been revealed.

I doubt anyone will feel cheated or tricked, but we'll have to see.

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

Exactly what I think.

I don’t think a classic and quite tired misdirection strategy for the story works. 
Almost feels like the writers just dusted off a Hollywood playbook. Very unoriginal. 

I love being fooled by a movie/show.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does I look back at what I saw and judge if it was done 'fairly' or not.  If I think the director cheated - world-breaking change, last second 'evidence', unsupported change of heart by a character, etc. then I generally don't like it.  If I think they pulled it off clean, then it immediately becomes one of my favorites and I recommend it. "Loved the ending"

[Ralph]

Rand is actually the one who is consistently suspicious (in the show) , far more than Mat. 

 

They've made the dagger effect more physical than in the books, and the channelling less physical

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

But they ... aren't? They're developing characters. They are leaving it to the viewer to draw their own conclusions. Rand's moments have been there - they've been subtle. 

To be intentionally subtle with one character and in your face with others can be considered cheating.  Thom basically said that Mat was the DR by assuming that he can channel.

[Maximillion]

10 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Where to begin?:

Nyn is a fighter in the non-armored sense, a healer, a proto-lover, and a bit on the prideful side.

Perrin is a friend, an artisan, a mystic, and a pillar.

 

Nynaeve is a super hero who can do everything.

 Perrin was set up as guy dealing with killing his wife and it’s been the constant reference since. Nothing else. That is his story. Dude killed wife , has temper, dealing with it. Unoriginal and boring. 

 It’s lazy and not nuanced at all for all characters.

 It is easy for the audience to understand without thinking too much, which is what the show is so far.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

Thom basically said that Mat was the DR by assuming that he can channel.

I think you're stealing a base here. Even if Mat could channel, that wouldn't make him the DR (since we know other men can channel). We have to wait and see how it plays out to see whether Rand's reveal is earned or unearned. But I don't think they did anything wrong with the Mat thing. Their execution was just a little off.

[dog421]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:04 AM, RhienneAgain said:

 

In the books Logain is much stronger than Nynaeve. As I said, I don't see that changing this impacts on the story in any significant way, but I think there could be knock-on effects of changing the relative character strengths as they affect (particularly Aes Sedai) character interactions.

good point

[Sabio]

I mean if you think about it, Perin murdered his wife and let everyone think the Trollocs did it (I don't remember him admitting it) But then again I was still trying to deal with holy crap he murdered his wife.  

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sabio

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

To be intentionally subtle with one character and in your face with others can be considered cheating.  Thom basically said that Mat was the DR by assuming that he can channel.

Did he?  Or does it make a question for a new person?  "We saw the dagger, so that makes sense.  But wait, is it all the dagger or is there something else?"

We're also getting this talk about Mat an episode after we compared Rand to Aiel and showed him channeling outright.

[dog421]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

I think you're stealing a base here. Even if Mat could channel, that wouldn't make him the DR (since we know other men can channel). We have to wait and see how it plays out to see whether Rand's reveal is earned or unearned. But I don't think they did anything wrong with the Mat thing. Their execution was just a little off.

Agreed. At this point, we only know that Moraine is aware that the dragon has been reborn. To everyone else, it is like Armageddon for Christians. It is something that they think will eventually happen, but none of them think it has started yet.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Mat is showing a lot of the negative sides of channeling. 

It's a interesting sentence. (I know another sentence follows but others can quote that.) The effects of real channeling are shown for "young man" and Logain, but are there negative sides? The madness is asserted by others. "Young man" is running with a third-person visible "old man." Logain is resisting the murderous suggestions of two shadows. The "madness" is not there, imho. Whether the show will downplay the madness or just hasn't shown it yet, is TBD. Matt's "madness" is contrived to make the madness-channeling-DR link. We know it's a fake, but it supports the misdirection. Liandrin and The Questioner exhibit more "madness" than the male channelers.

[Sabio]

Notice when we see people channel you always see swirling in the air and such, did we see anything when Rand channeled?

[Ralph]

Alanna talks about the signs

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Nynaeve is a super hero who can do everything

Except stick a knife in Lan.

[Ralph]

Just now, Sabio said:

Notice when we see people channel you always see swirling in the air and such, did we see anything when Rand channeled?

Not every time. They are trying to make it depend what the POV is from, but it is not clear to me how that is working exactly

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Nynaeve is a super hero who can do everything.

Stop. This is tired and hyperbolic.

 

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

That is his story. Dude killed wife , has temper, dealing with it.

Uh, have we had any evidence of Perrin's "temper" since Winternight? Perrin is struggling with grief. He is unsure of himself and worried that he will be unable to protect Egwene now that they have been separated from his friends. He got knocked upside the head with Ila's question - 
has life been better or worse since you picked up that axe? 

 

And I suspect that in the very next episode, he will have to decide whether to fight again.

 

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 It is easy for the audience to understand without thinking too much

And this is bad? I don't know about you, but I don't sit down to watch a fantasy tv series and say to myself, "self, I really want to have to think deeply about this."