tv show spoilers S1E2: Shadow's Waiting

[ArrylT]

12 hours ago, Beidomon said:

Can anyone explain the cut off hands thing? And Valda is an excellent creep but kind of a shit Questioner. He didn’t think to just ask “are you Aes Sedai”?

 

 

My understanding of Questioners (and inquisitors in general) is that they do not ask questions they do not know the answers too.    Since her ring was not shown (and most Aes Sedai would be too proud to remove it) and she had answered previous questions by the Captain earlier - I doubt he had any reason to even think it.  And Moiraine did mention they tended to travel in pairs (which I think is supported by the books also) and Egwene was too young (and also had no ring).   Basically his own assumptions about the evidence in front of him did not allow him to ask a question that would make him look like a fool if she had said no in some way. 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by ArrylT

[ArrylT]

8 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

 Confused why Moiraine's wound from the trolloc affects her so much slower than it does Tam. Seems like a similar sized injury with similar placement.

 

 

Benefit of her bond with her warder.

[SingleMort]

I wish we could have had a version of the scene with Mordeth

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, SingleMort said:

I wish we could have had a version of the scene with Mordeth

We got a shadow luring Mat in the room and a figure moving behind him as he was examining it. Creepy, but yeah maybe Mordeth would have been even more so. Depending how they would have done it.

[SingleMort]

9 hours ago, Rand the Plumber said:

 

Suicide by Aes Sedai?  But yes, I do agree that he was accessory to his own death, while Moiraine stood firm and did her duty.

 

 

Personally I think he wanted to die. I mean his original plan was to just charge into an army of trollocs

[Krakalakachkn]

Trollocs look very cgi, rather wish they'd dressed up people in costumes.  In the books they always seemed so realistic, so visceral.  In the show they look very fake and cartoony.  Actors in costumes would probably have been cheaper as well.

[DaddyFinn]

43 minutes ago, Krakalakachkn said:

they'd dressed up people in costumes

And that's what they have done. Some CGI to polish. I guess some of the trollocs in a large group or certain shots are purely CGI but can't say for certain.

Edited November 20, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Krakalakachkn]

Yeah that was a hot take from the taren ferry chase.  

[Krakalakachkn]

Whitecloaks look dope, just think they're introduced far too quickly.  Same with Perrin's wolves.  

 

Also standing by the trollocs comment.  Sure the closeups are actors but these long group shots look incredibly poor.

[Krakalakachkn]

Just now, Krakalakachkn said:

Whitecloaks look dope, just think they're introduced far too quickly.  Same with Perrin's wolves.  

 

Also standing by the trollocs comment.  Sure the closeups are actors but these long group shots look incredibly poor.

 

Edit: and all the shots are super quick cuts as if they want us to not be able to tell how bad they look.  But we can.

[Akragard]

19 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Perrin's initial meeting with the wolves was fantastic.

The meeting was cool.  I thought they looked like coyotes.  Wolves are huge.  I don't know why they made them so smol.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Akragard
Screwed up quoting.

[DaddyFinn]

@Akragard isn't that scene from episode 3? Don't spoil it here ?

Edited November 20, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Vartija]

I definitely missed Mordeth. Would have liked to see the boys exploring Shadar Logoth a bit more like in the books, but the whole mood of the scene was a bit different with Perrin shellshocked from E1 and Moiraine wounded. The lighthearted adventuring seeing in the books just wouldn't work so well with this premise. I just think Mordeth, if done correctly, would have added a nice creep factor into the episode. 

 

Mashadar was a bit underwhelming. I think a shadow-like mist would have looked more impressive, especially with Moiraine there to alert them of it's meaning, but again Moiraine was pretty much out of it in this episode.  

[MasterAblar]

Mashadar could definitely have been a bit better. I don't mind the whole spreading across the surface part, I just wish they had given it more... life I guess? Something like the crawler from Fable 3 if anyone knows what I'm talking about.

[ForsakenPotato]

3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Mashadar could definitely have been a bit better. I don't mind the whole spreading across the surface part, I just wish they had given it more... life I guess? Something like the crawler from Fable 3 if anyone knows what I'm talking about.

I think in the books the characters have a few close calls with it while escaping but what's really making them run is the trollocs. I get why they made the change because it's confusing in the span of one episode to say "the trollocs won't go in the city" and then 10 minutes later they are in the city...but I feel like as a result they had to make mashadar move really fast and cover the entire city while always leaving a tiny path for the protagonists, which comes off as a bit cheesy ("the floor is lava" vibes) rather than the ominous creepiness from the books.

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I think in the books the characters have a few close calls with it while escaping but what's really making them run is the trollocs. I get why they made the change because it's confusing in the span of one episode to say "the trollocs won't go in the city" and then 10 minutes later they are in the city...but I feel like as a result they had to make mashadar move really fast and cover the entire city while always leaving a tiny path for the protagonists, which comes off as a bit cheesy ("the floor is lava" vibes) rather than the ominous creepiness from the books.

I think I would’ve gone with the shadowy look and hide it more artistically with real shadows, and then when it got the horse, have the physicality be more like the blob, with a tar like entity coming from the shadows. It would have been different but very visually thrilling to see. Blob/The Thing like gore. Give me more nightmare fuel!!!

[Beidomon]

23 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

What bothered me about Shadar Logoth somewhat is that what forced the group into fleeing was the trollocs being pressured in by the fades, who were themselves pressured in by Baalzamon I believe. I feel like including that part with Moiraine wondering what could be so terrifying to fades that they would enter Shadar Logoth would have been really nice. And as they're being chased by the trollocs once more, that's when they should introduce the hell that is mashadar.

Right. They’ve used the trollocs lots of places in these first couple episodes, but then they vanished where they would have been best - in Shadar Logoth. That’s what makes the scene so great in the books - our protagonists are trying to escape trollocs, fades, and mashadar. Instead we get a scant 90 seconds or so of the characters getting divided up CGI black mold, and then jumping off the walls. And we’re supposed to be jazzed because the mold ate a horse?

[Jaysen Gore]

17 hours ago, Akragard said:

The meeting was cool.  I thought they looked like coyotes.  Wolves are huge.  I don't know why they made them so smol.

Because Wolves don't have SAG cards? ? You can work with trained dogs, but not wolves ("you can't cage a wolf").  You don't want CGI animals because we see the difference too quickly (some real animal recognition thing I can't remember the name of that wrecks CGI humans, too) , and you don't want the SFX costs of upscaling the Wolves in every shot they're in. Hence. Dogs.

[DaddyFinn]

8 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Because Wolves don't have SAG cards? ? You can work with trained dogs, but not wolves ("you can't cage a wolf").  You don't want CGI animals because we see the difference too quickly (some real animal recognition thing I can't remember the name of that wrecks CGI humans, too) , and you don't want the SFX costs of upscaling the Wolves in every shot they're in. Hence. Dogs.

I think the dogs were pretty accurate when comparing to the size of a regular wolf. Perrin is a big guy so they looked extra small next to him. Of course their appearance, face, fur etc. are different. I'd expect the wolves change a bit in next seasons but I'd be fine if they stayed like this.

 

https://animalcorner.org/animals/grey-wolf/

 

Adult Grey Wolves weigh around 75 – 125 pounds. Male Grey Wolves are larger than the females and can even grow to weigh as much as 175 pounds in some cases. Grey Wolves stand between 27- 32 inches at the shoulder. Wolves can appear much larger than they already are, this is because of their long fur. In winter when their fur is fully grown, their fur can be as long as 2 – 2.5 inches on their backs and sides. The hairs in their mane can be as long as 4 – 5 inches long and when stood upright, this makes them appear taller.

The length of the Grey Wolf varies between 50 and 70 inches long from nose tip to tail tip. A third of this length is the length of its tail.

[flinn]

^32 inches is about waist high, they did seem on the small side to me, but I know how difficult it can be to use animals/cgi animals so I overlook any issues like that.

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, flinn said:

32 inches is about waist high

Yes, I measured that. I'm fine with that. The dogs just need to be effective in battle. That's the most important thing for me.

[themann1086]

They're actually wolfdogs, Marcus talked about them in one of his blue carpet interviews. They're part domesticated wolf and part German Shepherd. Very intelligent but can be trained to listen to humans. The Czech Republic is where they originated, and I actually have a dog whose sire is one (mom was a standard German Shepherd)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakian_Wolfdog

[ArrylT]

19 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I think in the books the characters have a few close calls with it while escaping but what's really making them run is the trollocs. I get why they made the change because it's confusing in the span of one episode to say "the trollocs won't go in the city" and then 10 minutes later they are in the city...but I feel like as a result they had to make mashadar move really fast and cover the entire city while always leaving a tiny path for the protagonists, which comes off as a bit cheesy ("the floor is lava" vibes) rather than the ominous creepiness from the books.

Any chance you are a Community fan? ?

[SinisterDeath]

On 11/20/2021 at 1:16 AM, Krakalakachkn said:

Whitecloaks look dope, just think they're introduced far too quickly.  Same with Perrin's wolves.  

 

Also standing by the trollocs comment.  Sure the closeups are actors but these long group shots look incredibly poor.

Let's hope they get access to a better CGI budget in S2!

My understanding of the practical effects, is the actors in their Trolloc getup, are running around on these.

The "masks" they wear have interchangeable horns so one trolloc actor can play many different Trollocs.

We don't know if they filmed some of these chase scenes with various actors at different times and merged them into the same scene in Post, or if they just modeled all the possible configurations and CGI'd them into the background.

Obviously the Trollocs running on all four are 100% CGI.

The Trolloc in Ep1 that was cut in half by Nynaeve/Egwene was... crap as far as CGI goes.

 

Part of the big problem with CGI in general, is there's only so many companies that do CGI. They have a HUGE problem going bankrupt because studios like Disney/Sony/Etc don't pay them, forcing them to fold. 

Then you have the whole idea of "lets rush project A, because we got Big bucks coming in from Disney/Marvel!"

 

I do have a hunch, that for whatever reason, this series wasn't screen tested. Else some of the CGI effects looking cheesy should have been brought up. (Anyone remember the Sonic Debacle?

[Vartija]

Finished a rewatch yesterday and I really think this episode was a bit lacking. Felt like the saying "close but no cigar", ie. I see what they were trying to do but the execution was't quite there. I think the biggest issue was that the dialogue was kind of flat and the Rand, Egwene & Moiraine drama felt a bit hamfisted. I don't like the way they are making Rand this aggressive & difficult to be around this early. I understand the motivation behind it because Rand was the most daring in challenging Moiraine, but the way it explodes out of him in accusations ("Did you put this (the bats) in our dreams?!") feels wrong and makes him needlessly unlikeable. They really leaning into him being a this kind of moody and accusatory type. Obviously there's some of that in Rand but I feel like they're not emphasizing his better qualities enough yet.  

 

Some +/- notes:

+I complained previously about the landscape but tbh, I must have misremembered because it was pretty spot on in this episode. Lots of forests, some clearings etc. is pretty much how I would expect the road from Two Rivers to Shadar Logoth be. I think my main issue was the escape from SH where the land looks really barren and the way the river was so close to the city.

+ I like that they're including the nightmares. Perhaps they could have delved a bit deeper into the subject though? Why are they having them, how they can be warded off, who's the man in the dream etc.

+ I thought the Manetheren song & Moiraine's story about it was a bit cheesy at first watch but it worked better on rewatch.

+ Lots of necessary tidbits about the One Power, three oaths etc. Maybe not delivered in the most striking or memorable way but at least it's there. 

- I didn't like how the decision to go to Shadar Logoth was solely made by Lan. Makes him look dumber and more incompetent than necessary. Especially with the "you've killed us all" blurt from Moiraine. 

- The book version of the events in Shadar Logoth was just a lot more memorable. The way the trollocs eventually dared to enter forcing the group to leave, the misty, slower moving Mashadar blocking the way combined with trollocs hunting them and the trollocs themselves dying from Mashadar. I didn't really like the setup of the escape either with the clicheish jump from a high wall to the river. And with no trollocs hunting them outside the city it's kind of weird how they couldn't just take their time to regroup right outside the city walls.