If You Could Balefire Three Storylines…..

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/17/2021 at 8:35 AM, king of nowhere said:

nobody yet mentioned mat being forced to become tylin's lover...

He was not forced, he towered over Tylin and could quite easily have physically terminated her advancements at any point.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

He was not forced, he towered over Tylin and could quite easily have physically terminated her advancements at any point.

except she was queen, she was in a country where she could have killed him with little to no repercussions, she had an army of servants that cooperated with her - and wanted mat to be her lover, because it would make her feel better over the seanchan invading - and he came from a culture where using force against a woman - which was required to "physically terminate her advancements" - was a big taboo.

Oh, I almost forgot, she carries a knife, she's competent with it, and she uses it liberally. If holding someone at knifepoint does not count as "forcing", I have no idea what does

 

[mistborn82]

As progressive as the show will be, I think they'll either drop Tylin and go right to Beslin or have the Gholam, if they include that, murder Tylin as he arrives and Mat stays to help Beslin and free demane. The biggest difference, societywise, is viewers will know what Valda does to Morgase is wrong and worthy of death immediately while not everyone will see it with Tylin and Randland, or whatever it's called, just doesn't have the concepts for male rape. It's shown by the fact that Nyneave and Elayne find it funny where they would instantly kill Valda. The situations are kind of similiar, neither Morgase nor Mat were technically forced but were both in a fortress where a word from Valda or Tylin would get them killed and so  for different reasons, they were both taken advantage of in the cruelest way possible.

[DojoToad]

13 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

He was not forced, he towered over Tylin and could quite easily have physically terminated her advancements at any point.

Oh, I didn't realize.  I feel much better now.

[Elder_Haman]

15 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

As progressive as the show will be, I think they'll either drop Tylin and go right to Beslin or have the Gholam, if they include that, murder Tylin as he arrives and Mat stays to help Beslin and free demane. The biggest difference, societywise, is viewers will know what Valda does to Morgase is wrong and worthy of death immediately while not everyone will see it with Tylin and Randland, or whatever it's called, just doesn't have the concepts for male rape. It's shown by the fact that Nyneave and Elayne find it funny where they would instantly kill Valda. The situations are kind of similiar, neither Morgase nor Mat were technically forced but were both in a fortress where a word from Valda or Tylin would get them killed and so  for different reasons, they were both taken advantage of in the cruelest way possible.

I think they'll just tone it down and have Tylin seduce Mat, but in a far less rapey way. It's a good storyline and actually adds quite a bit of tension. So I doubt they'll cut it entirely.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/24/2021 at 7:41 PM, king of nowhere said:

except she was queen, she was in a country where she could have killed him with little to no repercussions, she had an army of servants that cooperated with her - and wanted mat to be her lover, because it would make her feel better over the seanchan invading - and he came from a culture where using force against a woman - which was required to "physically terminate her advancements" - was a big taboo.

Oh, I almost forgot, she carries a knife, she's competent with it, and she uses it liberally. If holding someone at knifepoint does not count as "forcing", I have no idea what does

 

They literally wake up naked in bed together with her knife having been stabbed into the bedpost. Alone, together. You can argue the Pattern forced him into the circumstances and therefore he had no choice, but to argue that he could have not physically have ended it right then and there or at however many other times they frolicked, is not very persuasive. Flouncing Mat was not rape survivor Mat

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/24/2021 at 9:51 PM, mistborn82 said:

As progressive as the show will be, I think they'll either drop Tylin and go right to Beslin or have the Gholam, if they include that, murder Tylin as he arrives and Mat stays to help Beslin and free demane. The biggest difference, societywise, is viewers will know what Valda does to Morgase is wrong and worthy of death immediately while not everyone will see it with Tylin and Randland, or whatever it's called, just doesn't have the concepts for male rape. It's shown by the fact that Nyneave and Elayne find it funny where they would instantly kill Valda. The situations are kind of similiar, neither Morgase nor Mat were technically forced but were both in a fortress where a word from Valda or Tylin would get them killed and so  for different reasons, they were both taken advantage of in the cruelest way possible.

 

Kind of similar?????? What is going on here? A flipping heron sword wearing blademaster rapes a non-combat trained, non-physically active at all noble woman and it's somehow ok to equate that with what takes place between Mat and Tylin??!!

 

As a childhood rape surivivor, someone has to walk me through this step by freaking step before I accept that as anything close to possible

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/25/2021 at 1:31 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think they'll just tone it down and have Tylin seduce Mat, but in a far less rapey way. It's a good storyline and actually adds quite a bit of tension. So I doubt they'll cut it entirely.

 

Less rapey? Again, what the heck is going on where this conclusion is universally accepted and unchallenged?  Please do explain to me how rape by a clearly physically superior person is the same as Mat never using his absolute physical advantage over Tylin while engaging in numerous, explicitly mutually pleasurable encounters with Tylin?

 

 

 

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/25/2021 at 7:55 AM, DojoToad said:

Oh, I didn't realize.  I feel much better now.

 

Is it okay to just ignore the real actual trauma that arises when someone is actually, physically incapable of resisting a sexual assault?

 

"Oh, you have to get your food from the city and not from the palace's cook" does not come close. At all. Ever

[king of nowhere]

16 minutes ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

 

As a childhood rape surivivor, someone has to walk me through this step by freaking step before I accept that as anything close to possible

Oh. I think I see your issue here; you got it worse, and you don't like implicitly putting the two situation on the same level.

Sure, of course what tylin did is a step below taking someone by force. And "rape" used to only refer to taking by force, while now it refers more broadly to taking by coercition.

Still, just because someone could try to fight, and chooses not to, it does not mean it's "ok", and it can easily still be rape in the meaning of "taken by coercition".

I remember, maybe 20 years ago, we had a big fuss in italy because a judge sentenced a rapist not guilty with the motivation "the victim was wearing jeans, and they are very difficult to remove by force. So, if the victim really had wanted to resist, the aggressor would not have been able to get those trousers off of her, and so she was consensual". There was a really, really big scandal around it, and I'm pretty sure the sentence was revised.

what you are claiming for mat is very similar: that if he had really wanted, if he could be willing to put his life in danger from a knife-wielding nut and her servants, then he could have resisted.

There's also the whole "me too" movement, about women basically blackmailed into having sex with their bosses if they wanted to keep the job, or to avoid mobbing. that's way less extreme than what was done to you, and even a fair bit less than what was done to mat, since they participated willingly and they could choose to get fired and hope to find another job. But still, we all agree what was done to them wasn't "ok", by any means.

The "he liked it afterward" argument also doesn't hold. I've seen an event with some women victims of rape holding signs with the justifications of their rapists, and the most common one was along the lines of "you'll like it afterward". And no, they were wrong.

49 minutes ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

"Oh, you have to get your food from the city and not from the palace's cook" does not come close. At all. Ever

It's more like "you could be stabbed, or maybe sold as a slave. And maybe the queen is bluffing and she wouldn't really do it, but you're not sure, and she has legal autority". Just because tylin put down the knife it doesn't mean she would not use it later, and tuon did offer to buy him as slave.

 

You can try to find a different word for mat and tylin, but really, you can't argue that what tylin did was "ok", not unless you want to implicitly undermine all the major feminist battles in the last decade.

 

P.S. I have no problems with mat being taken by the queen with... questionable consent. I accept that the world is not perfect, that bad things happen, and that there are bad people. I can read about mat being taken by an aggressive queen who won't take no as an answer, just like I can read about perrin losing family to the trollocs, as something bad that happens to the character. I can even accept that tylin is not evil, she just comes from a very odd culture.

What actually irks me about that storyline is that nynaeve and elayne react like it's mat's fault. that's real unfair, and from my perspective, it hurts much more.

It's like, I can accept bad things happening, I can accept being hurt by bad people, because it's clearly not my fault, and I keep my "honor". Life knocked me down, I got up, I'm still the same person afterward. But being blamed for a fault is a loss of "honor", it diminishes me on a much deeper level than just being a victim. I'm trying to explain why for me being blamed unjustly is worse than violence, not sure how well I'm doing it, anyway, that's what I really don't like about that storyline.

On a more general level, I hate seeing how unfairly nynaeve and elayne are treating mat, starting from the stone of tear and going all the way to evading him rather than cooperate.

 

[Fano'Lan Redux]

9 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Oh. I think I see your issue here; you got it worse, and you don't like implicitly putting the two situation on the same level.

Sure, of course what tylin did is a step below taking someone by force. And "rape" used to only refer to taking by force, while now it refers more broadly to taking by coercition.

Still, just because someone could try to fight, and chooses not to, it does not mean it's "ok", and it can easily still be rape in the meaning of "taken by coercition".

I remember, maybe 20 years ago, we had a big fuss in italy because a judge sentenced a rapist not guilty with the motivation "the victim was wearing jeans, and they are very difficult to remove by force. So, if the victim really had wanted to resist, the aggressor would not have been able to get those trousers off of her, and so she was consensual". There was a really, really big scandal around it, and I'm pretty sure the sentence was revised.

what you are claiming for mat is very similar: that if he had really wanted, if he could be willing to put his life in danger from a knife-wielding nut and her servants, then he could have resisted.

There's also the whole "me too" movement, about women basically blackmailed into having sex with their bosses if they wanted to keep the job, or to avoid mobbing. that's way less extreme than what was done to you, and even a fair bit less than what was done to mat, since they participated willingly and they could choose to get fired and hope to find another job. But still, we all agree what was done to them wasn't "ok", by any means.

The "he liked it afterward" argument also doesn't hold. I've seen an event with some women victims of rape holding signs with the justifications of their rapists, and the most common one was along the lines of "you'll like it afterward". And no, they were wrong.

It's more like "you could be stabbed, or maybe sold as a slave. And maybe the queen is bluffing and she wouldn't really do it, but you're not sure, and she has legal autority". Just because tylin put down the knife it doesn't mean she would not use it later, and tuon did offer to buy him as slave.

 

You can try to find a different word for mat and tylin, but really, you can't argue that what tylin did was "ok", not unless you want to implicitly undermine all the major feminist battles in the last decade.

 

P.S. I have no problems with mat being taken by the queen with... questionable consent. I accept that the world is not perfect, that bad things happen, and that there are bad people. I can read about mat being taken by an aggressive queen who won't take no as an answer, just like I can read about perrin losing family to the trollocs, as something bad that happens to the character. I can even accept that tylin is not evil, she just comes from a very odd culture.

What actually irks me about that storyline is that nynaeve and elayne react like it's mat's fault. that's real unfair, and from my perspective, it hurts much more.

It's like, I can accept bad things happening, I can accept being hurt by bad people, because it's clearly not my fault, and I keep my "honor". Life knocked me down, I got up, I'm still the same person afterward. But being blamed for a fault is a loss of "honor", it diminishes me on a much deeper level than just being a victim. I'm trying to explain why for me being blamed unjustly is worse than violence, not sure how well I'm doing it, anyway, that's what I really don't like about that storyline.

On a more general level, I hate seeing how unfairly nynaeve and elayne are treating mat, starting from the stone of tear and going all the way to evading him rather than cooperate.

 

 

there is so much circular logic and bootstrap reasoning in here it amounts to an incoherent statement of nothing sensical. Add in a bit of irrelevant colloquialism and I'm not sure what remains

 

You are equating acts that are exponentially different. It is a false equivalency

 

Mat and Tylin's interactions have absolutely nothing to do with any real world movement. Reiterating a false conclusion does not make it true and your appeal to outside authority bears no merit

 

At any point Mat could choose to leave and would not get fired, would not lose his ability to earn a living, would not get blackballed or ostracized or face a more difficult hiring process or any of the myriad atrocities foisted upon women in this country and to a greater degree in many places around the world

 

Morgase. Literally. Had. No. Option. To. End. Her. Rape

 

Belittle my experience all you want. I've traversed the road, survived and thrived

[DojoToad]

Rape is rape.  Whether it be a brute using his fists, a weasel plying drugs/alcohol, a person of greater authority applying pressure/influence/resources...

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The Mat/Tylin thing was a good introduction (for 14 year old me) to the insidious ways that sexual coercion happen in the real world. I didn't really understand how social dynamics enable it without the explicit use of force, but these scenes made me think about that for the first time. I was pleasantly surprised to learn years later that Harriet thought it was a good way to introduce men and boys to that exact topic. Mission accomplished.

 

It's still a pertinent topic and I wouldn't want to get rid of that storyline. But the conversation around these issues has developed quite a bit since it was written, so it might benefit from a fresh take.

Edited August 27, 2021 by lt;(^-^)gt;

[Elder_Haman]

13 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

 

Less rapey? Again, what the heck is going on where this conclusion is universally accepted and unchallenged?  Please do explain to me how rape by a clearly physically superior person is the same as Mat never using his absolute physical advantage over Tylin while engaging in numerous, explicitly mutually pleasurable encounters with Tylin?

 

Okay. This is gonna be lengthy...

 

Well, first of all where I live and work there are many different means by which the crime of rape is accomplished:

(1) Sex with someone who is incapable of consent due to disability or mental disorder.

(2) Where it is accomplished against a person’s will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury on the person or another. Duress in this context means a direct or implied threat of force, violence, danger, or retribution.

(3) Where a person is drugged or unable to resist due to an intoxicant.

(4) Where the person in unconscious at the time of the act.

(5) Where the perpetrator pretends to be someone else in order to accomplish the act.

(6) Where the act is accomplished against the person’s will by threatening to retaliate in the future against the victim or any other person, and there is a reasonable possibility that the perpetrator will execute the threat.

(7) Where the act is accomplished against the victim’s will by threatening to use the authority of a public official to incarcerate, arrest, or deport the victim or another, and the victim has a reasonable belief that the perpetrator is a public official.

 

Tylin's conduct clearly meets the legal definition of rape where I live. Moreover, her conduct also violated several other statutory prohibitions against sexual assault. She would be prosecuted and ordered to register as a sex offender for her conduct toward Mat.

 

So when I say "less rapey" I mean "less rapey". Someone does not have to be physically overpowered to experience rape. The experience of being raped is traumatic whether or not it was accomplished by force or violence. And it is unfair and unproductive to try to "rank" the trauma experienced by survivors of sexual assault based on what specific acts occurred. 

 

Tylin's conduct would be unacceptable in today's society. And because of that, my point is that I believe that - wanting to preserve the dramatic tension Jordan created with the Mat/Tylin dynamic - the writers of the show will choose to characterize the relationship as a seduction that does not cross the line of making Mat the victim of a non-consensual sexual encounter. 

 

If you are arguing that Jordan did not write the encounter as non-consensual, that's a different argument. But it requires Mat to be an unreliable narrator of his own experience. 

 

[Borderlander]

I hope the writer's tackle it head on: Have Tylin use her authority to coerce Mat. Have her flash the knives and nod to the armed guards. And, have Mat complain about it... but also have him occasionally crack a dry joke and play along with the role even though he would prefer to escape, just like it was in the books. When I first read it, I was about Mat's age, and my honest line of thought was That doesn't seem so bad. He gets to stay in the palace, and he's getting some action, but something's not quite right... And it was a challenge to think through, and that challenge was valuable. Probably millions of young male readers over the years thought the exact same thing I did... so to write it off (for the TV show) as either 100% evil rape or sidestep the controversy altogether by rewriting it as a consensual seduction, for me that would be a missed opportunity to explore a really murky but worthwhile moral conundrum.

 

If you play up the use of force and/or authority and make Mat a 100% completely and consistently unwilling victim, we can all watch that, call it what it is (100% evil rape) and move on, tidily affirmed of our own unswerving moral compass. That's the easy way out.

 

Make Tylin seduce him, no threat of force involved, and it's just another steamy, sordid sex affair. We've all seen that a million times. You could basically get up and go refill your drink during those scenes.

 

Which is why I hope they play it just like in the books, because life is full of complex, weird, horrifying, uncertain and unsettling ethical gray areas, and we learn a lot more about ourselves, those around us, and our own values when we have to wade through those sticky philosophical swamps without a nice, neat path to the other side and a group of like-minded sycophants to hold our hand the whole way.

 

And then exercise some creative restraint and don't tell the audience what we ought to think about the whole messy affair. No trigger warnings before the episode. No after-show apologies for presenting something unpleasant. I mean, heck, if their really going to have nudity and bloody gore, then everyone watching ought to be an adult—we can handle some intellectual challenges and psychological turmoil. 

Stick to what Jordan wrote, in all its disconcerting complexity, and let the viewer suss out what we think.

 

However, my guess would be, after the blowback from Ramsey Bolton raping Sansa, they'll take the easy way out. (Not sure where the same outrage mob was when Ramsey sliced off Theon's little Greyjoy, but that's another story I suppose.)

 

[Beidomon]

Oh my God I’m changing my answer the top thing I’d Balefire is the last dozen posts or so. Good grief people it’s a work of fiction. Please give it a rest or start a new thread. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Beidomon

[D Dub]

As much as I love this series, it us quite difficult to cut it down to 3! I mean, you could cut Perrin out completely after book 6, and the series would be  better for it

 

After careful consideration, I would have to go with the following:

 

1) The Shaido after Couladin's death

 

This one is responsible for many evils, such as the Faile kidnapping story line.

 

I was so annoyed the first time I read KoD, where after Malden, the Shaido are like, 'now we will return to the Three Fold land, and never darken these pages again', and I was like, why didn't you do that 37 books ago?!

 

2) The Andoran Succession

 

The worst part about this is that not only is it pretty boring, you don't actually want Elayne to succeed!

 

It would have been a lot more palatable of Elayne had ended up dead or captured 

 

3) Slayer

 

Not only are Slayer's parts post book 4 pretty boring, but I feel he is overpowered and underused, which doesn't make much sense

 

With his abilities to enter and exit the world of dreams, the Shadow could have won the war in a single night, as Slayer just assassinates everyone of importance on the Light side

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:18 PM, Beidomon said:

Oh my God I’m changing my answer the top thing I’d Balefire is the last dozen posts or so. Good grief people it’s a work of fiction. Please give it a rest or start a new thread. 

 

Sorry for sidetracking this thread, probably better in the book discussion section of the forum

 

Thank you to those providing thoughtful answers above, this is a fascinating phenomenon to me but do realize no one here is the original proponent of the conclusion and it's otherwise not interesting to many

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

On 8/22/2021 at 10:35 PM, Fano'Lan Redux said:

If I could:

 

Padan Fain .... gone

 

Mat ... gone until post-Shaido battle and then gone from the Brandon books

 

Talmanes from the Brandon books

 

Yes, I realize these will not happen for practical purpose but I can only hope Rafe does a much better job than Brandon with these storylines

 

What?! 

Ok, I'd agree BS did a poor job with Fain. But so would he - he said as much in an interview. But Jordan's Fain was one of the better written villains & I think Rafe and team can do a great job with his decent into inhuman madness. 

 

Matt is the best character in the series. Annoying at the beginning...but Han Solo by the end.

 

Talmanes was Sanderson's highpoint -character wise- with what he did in WoT. 

 

So what?!

Also - not sure how we ended up with all this rape talk - but since it's a such a sensitive subject ... If they did leave it in they'd have to handle it really well. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Harldin]

On 8/24/2021 at 4:10 AM, Elder_Haman said:

(1) All Shaido post death of Couladin.

(2) 80% of the Andoran succession plot line.

(3) The Sea Folk - I'd leave the Bowl in as a Macguffin, but axe the sea folk (and maybe the Kin). 

So no Dumais Wells? no Shaido after DW 

[Elder_Haman]

I don't know that the Shaido are necessary at DW. Perhaps, they should go that far. But no further. I'd have Masema be behind the kidnapping of Faile. I think I've talked about it on here before, but Masema is criminally underutilized. I think he's going to be changed a bit and made into a more effective antagonist for Perrin. 

[DojoToad]

On 8/31/2021 at 10:16 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I don't know that the Shaido are necessary at DW. Perhaps, they should go that far. But no further. I'd have Masema be behind the kidnapping of Faile. I think I've talked about it on here before, but Masema is criminally underutilized. I think he's going to be changed a bit and made into a more effective antagonist for Perrin. 

I too like the Shaido at DW, but as you said - a perfect time to end them.

 

Like your idea for Masema too.  Be interested to see when we get that far...

[Elder_Haman]

31 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I too like the Shaido at DW

I think it comes down to the fact that I really dislike Savannah as a character. Not Savannah herself, but really the idea of her. I find her rise following Couladin's death ... unlikely.

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think it comes down to the fact that I really dislike Savannah as a character. Not Savannah herself, but really the idea of her. I find her rise following Couladin's death ... unlikely.

Agreed again.  She was too sensual by far for any Aiel (except a horny Stone Dog) to take seriously.  Why would any Wise One follow her...

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, DojoToad said:

She was too sensual by far for any Aiel (except a horny Stone Dog) to take seriously.  Why would any Wise One follow her...

Agreed. And if she was able to convince some of them, I find it difficult to believe that her reign would be more than a few weeks long. A Wise One with a better head on her shoulders would isolate Savannah and kneecap her in pretty short order, you'd think.