What characters do you think they merged?

[SinisterDeath]

During the guitar reveal Q&A, Rafe alluded that some characters may have been merged.

 

Who do you think they merged?

 

Here's my top bets.

 

Gawyn + Galad = Galawyn

Uno + Ingtar = Ungaro

Thom + Asmodean = Thomas

Rahvin + Bryne = Steve

Edited December 31, 2020 by SinisterDeath

[Elgee]

Who's Byrne?

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Elgee said:

Who's Byrne?

Typo, Gareth Bryne

[mistborn82]

If they merge Gawyn and Galad, that will make @Elder_Hamanhappy, personally I think they'll kill Gawyn as I think that more sense for story reasons.

As for merging, I think Ingtar and Agelmar as A appears at the end of EOTW, beginning of tGH and then not again until the very end. Also having a good friend of Lan and Moiraine turn out to be a DF would be good for the story. For how dangerous and slippery they're built up as, there aren't enough DF good guys, well who we thought were, there's Ingtar and then Verin at the very end. There have to be more, like in the LOTR movies Aragorn didn't accept his destiny until the third film, WOT has to be more complex than the books. I can't tell if it's a joke but I don't see Bryne+Rahvin, I could see Rahvin killing Bryne instead of inventing a whole new lord, compulsion or not. Obviously, you have Taimandred, how it was supposed to be, you probably combine Wise Ones, AS and BA, respectively, I don't know about Kin and Seafolk because I'm not sure if they'll be included.

[Carebear Sedai]

The only merge I'm expecting is Alanna and Myrelle. I'm expecting the former to be the one who takes wayward warders under her wing, and her early appearance in the series may indicate a scene between her and Moiraine discussing her plans for Lan. 

[Elder_Haman]

Gawyn/Galad is a big possibility. I think the identities of many secondary characters will be blurred. For example, they might have a guy be "a-hole Whitecloak #3" in season one then decide they like him as an actor and write him in as "Dain Bornhald" in season 2 even though they hadn't planned on having a "Dain Bornhald" when they started. With tertiary characters like that, it's fairly simple to write them small roles with small payoffs.

 

You could potentially combine Egeanin with Suroth and/or Alivia. (Or, yes, eliminate Egeanin altogeter @Thrasymachus). 

 

I think they'll definitely tinker with the Forsaken.

[mistborn82]

Beyond Dain, I think you combine or just not name some Whitecloaks, as there are way too many running around. The Maidens are another group with way too many named, like the first few times I listened I was confused by characters similar names. I only listened so maybe they're spelled differently but that always confused me.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

I disagree that they need to or will combine any major characters like Galad and Gawyn, but I totally agree that there are a plethora of secondary and tertiary characters that can be combined or cut altogether: Whitecloaks, Aes Sedai, Maidens of the Spear, Borderlanders, Tinkers, Queen's Guard, Nobles, ect ... I mean, there were a ton of non-essential and lengthy story lines and characters in the books that will have to be cut for TV. 

[deathgate]

I agree with WB that a bunch of secondary and tertiary characters will be merged. No need to have 200 different Aes Sedai showing up for a few seconds or at most minutes at a time. Unsure about The Forsaken. They are the biggest baddies and Raef said it was hard for hire really good actors to play characters who disappear for several seasons. If they can show up for one or two consecutive seasons before being destroyed then maybe they all get their airtime. BTW, in LOTR they got a few really good actors because they loved the books. Is their any word of any major actors who are angling to get some small parts because they love WOT?

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

I agree that they will merge lesser characters. I think they might merge a couple Forsaken, but I really hope they don’t. I definitely think they will merge Aes Sedai, as well as probably some Wise Ones or Maidens. 

[mistborn82]

What you can do for the forsaken is adjust their storylines so they're killed. Like Moghedien, after she breaks Nyneave's block there's no need for her, same for others. Ishamael, kill and change to Moridin, Lanfear, don't change into Cyndane, too interesting as a psycho, Semirahague, Demandred, obviously, Mesaana, don't know when you'd bring her, as for the rest, give them their story roles or adjust and kill them. Belal would be a great place for a WOT fan actor or Sean Bean, because he's contractually obligated to die in fantasy series.

Have Aginor replace Ishamael in EotW, possibly with allusions to Ishy

Balhamel not sure but killed before Arangar

Belal, kill in tDR

Sammael, stay and die as normal

Moggy, from when she appears to have Nyneave kill her after the block breaks

Rahvin, killed as normal

Greandal, not sure

Asmodean, killed as normal

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

On 1/24/2021 at 9:19 PM, mistborn82 said:

What you can do for the forsaken is adjust their storylines so they're killed. Like Moghedien, after she breaks Nyneave's block there's no need for her, same for others. Ishamael, kill and change to Moridin, Lanfear, don't change into Cyndane, too interesting as a psycho, Semirahague, Demandred, obviously, Mesaana, don't know when you'd bring her, as for the rest, give them their story roles or adjust and kill them. Belal would be a great place for a WOT fan actor or Sean Bean, because he's contractually obligated to die in fantasy series.

Have Aginor replace Ishamael in EotW, possibly with allusions to Ishy

Balhamel not sure but killed before Arangar

Belal, kill in tDR

Sammael, stay and die as normal

Moggy, from when she appears to have Nyneave kill her after the block breaks

Rahvin, killed as normal

Greandal, not sure

Asmodean, killed as normal

I think that could work fairly well. It seems out of character for Nynaeve to kill Moghedien, and I will be SO mad if they screw with the Mashiara scene. That would be fun to be Be’lal! It would be funny for Sean Bean too, but I can’t really see him as Be’lal. I don’t think Ishamael should be replaced, as it takes away from his character, and he is pretty important as Nae’blis. 

[mistborn82]

Well Be'lal and Lews Therin were the first swordmasters and Sean Bean has had plenty of practice with them.

Moggy and Nyneave could have another fight and Nyn severs her as she really serves no purpose after she breaks Nyn's block and you won't get an actress to stick around after that.

I think you have to do something special with Ishamael though to show that he's special

[Thrasymachus]

I really think you have to keep Moghedien around and keep her end.  We see through her eyes more than any other Forsaken, and she's and important window into the goings-on of the other Forsaken.  She may not do much that actually impacts the plot after she's freed and inadvertently cures Nynaeve's block.  But she almost does, when she attempt to imitate Demanded and rally the forces of the Dark after Lan had killed him.  And her ending of being captured is too richly deserved and poetic to leave out.

[mistborn82]

Moggy may be an important tertiary character, especially after the block, but you probably won't get an actress to stay for a once a season cameo unless WOT fans.

[king of nowhere]

they could merge faile and berelain

 

ducks

 

no, the thing makes more sense than it looks. both are capable leaders. both chase perrin. both are good fighters. they are often in the same scene.

failelain would be the ruler of mayene. she would meet perrin in tear. after all, she met him halfway through the third book but she spent the whole time doing nothing. there she offers support to rand. then she goes with perrin, taking faile's role. she trains perrin in leadership with a skill that comes from being a ruler, and she has no connection to the bashiere couple. that connection was only used a handful of times anyway.

 

there is only one little problem with merging faile and berelain. diehard fans would definitely storm the studios and kill anyone involved

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, mistborn82 said:

Moggy may be an important tertiary character, especially after the block, but you probably won't get an actress to stay for a once a season cameo unless WOT fans.

I think they should combine Moggy and Graendal. It would allow them to do a really solid job developing one of the female Forsaken. The combination wouldn't create any major plot holes. The combined character could do everything the individual ones do in the last battle and could still try to assume the role of Demandred (Taimandred?) at the very end.

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

they could merge faile and berelain

But then who would Faile rage at Perrin for being nice to?

[mistborn82]

I think you have to keep Faile unmerged because she's Saldean Royalty. I think it's more likely they merge or drop berelain and definitely the Perrin chasing. She's very capable but I don't see where a moderately important background character like Berelain fits.

[Thrasymachus]

I don't think you have to relegate Moghedien to one or two scenes per season after she removes Nynaeve's block.  Moggy's one of the primary lenses into the antagonists.  Particularly after her failure and punishment, she's there almost any time Moridin is, and at every meeting the Forsaken have.  As readers, we come to know her more than any other Forsaken, her point of view, her motives and fears and her personality.  Of all the Forsaken, she's the one that demonstrates to the readers the fundamental humanity, with all its flaws of foibles, of those prominent followers of the Dark One.  Of course, that doesn't mean she's the biggest threat, that she does the most to thwart the good guys or that she's instrumental in moving the plot forward.  But telling a story is about more than just relaying events and their proximal causes.  It's also about the characters involved, and how they feel and grow with respect to those events.  Often, a story is better told through the perspective of someone more to the sidelines than through someone in the thick of the action.

 

Honestly, I feel like people are looking too high up for those characters that will be merged. Some of the Forsaken may be merged, but I haven't seen a very compelling reason why they'd need to, except to cut the number down to make the remaining ones seem more impactful.  But 13 is a powerful symbolic number, and some of the Forsaken are never really intended to be more than high-level cannon fodder, existing only to threaten from the background, and then be defeated and destroyed by Rand and his allies.  There's no real need to merge them, and doing so deprives the good guys of obstacles to overcome. 

 

Most of them have only a few scenes before their deaths, and one even has no scenes before his death, he just shows up, threatens Rand, and get balefired.  Aginor and Balthamel show up and die, then get brought back and recast into Halima and Dashiva.  Both would be recurring for a couple of seasons, and have sufficient scenes throughout to keep their actors attached.  Ishamael gets recast into Moridin and becomes a semi-recurring character.  Lanfear is recurring throughout, but she also gets changed into Cyndane, and she's fond of disguises, so it's likely that a handful of actors will portray her.  Bel'al shows up and dies immediately.  Rhavin has a handful of scenes then dies.  Sammael has a few more, then dies.  Asmodean gets a bunch of scenes as a background/supporting character in Rand's camp, probably a recurring character for a whole season, and then dies.  Graendal is trickier, because she gets a few scenes early on with Sammael, then nothing until Natrin's Barrow where she becomes more like Moghedien.  But one could either cut those earlier scenes and hold off on casting Graendal until Natrin's Barrow, or film the Natrin's Barrow scenes, and the scenes with Slayer after her failure with Perrin where Shadar Haran takes her for her punishment, early on and keep 'em banked until needed, and recast Graendal into Hessalam after her failure with Perrin.  Semirhage doesn't need to show up except for a couple of episodes, when they take her captive, when she's being questioned, and when she nearly kidnaps Rand with the sad bracelets.  Messana doesn't need to be specifically cast at all; she's always hidden or disguised.

 

I think the mergers are going to be more in the order of the tertiary named characters, especially the Aes Sedai.  I think we also see mergers among the nobility in Tear, Cairhein and Andor.  I have yet to see an argument for merging Gawyn and Galad that wasn't ultimately rooted in a shallow dislike of a particular character.  The perspectives they bring to the story, and they things they do in service to the plot, are too different and too irreconcilable for them to be satisfactorily merged.  And it shows, because most of those proposed "mergers" simply cut Gawyn almost entirely.  I suspect that were Egwene not such an obvious main character, many would try to cut or "merge" her too.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Thrasymachus

[Elder_Haman]

30 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I have yet to see an argument for merging Gawyn and Galad that wasn't ultimately rooted in a shallow dislike of a particular character.  The perspectives they bring to the story, and they things they do in service to the plot, are too different and too irreconcilable for them to be satisfactorily merged.  And it shows, because most of those proposed "mergers" simply cut Gawyn almost entirely.  I suspect that were Egwene not such an obvious main character, many would try to cut or "merge" her too.

I don't hate (or have a "shallow dislike for) either one of these characters. I actually quite like Gawyn. His combination of recklessness and devotion is very human to me. Though I do feel his character arc was a bit unmoored. I also really like Galad. He has one of my favorite arcs in the books (though I do get tired of hearing how hot he is) and I'm one of the few who like the "Perrin on trial" scenes. Nonetheless, I've advocated for combining the characters for purposes of the tv adaptation. Here are my reasons - none of which has to do with a dislike of either character:

 

First, there are too many lulls in their story arcs. My hope is that Amazon's version is - first and foremost - good television. Both Galad and Gawyn disappear for big chunks of the books. I want a character that does some of the same things, but I also want a character that is fully realized and tv audiences connect with.

 

Second, I see a very compelling story that can be told through the Gawyn/Galad amalgam. -->

Galwyn (stole this name from another commenter) begins at the White Tower. He is training with the Warders while Elayne trains to become Aes Sedai. He meets Egwene and gets moony. Egwene thinks he's okay, but has no time for romance. Besides, she's still smitten with Aram.

 

Galwyn hears about the turmoil happening in Andor and the political trouble Morgase is in. Since he is a reckless hothead, he wants to run away from the tower to go help his mom. He tries to convince Elayne to go with him, but Elayne is more cautious and says no.

Galwyn steams (and loses a fight to Mat).

 

Later, he's looking for his sister and discovers that she has left the Tower. (Liandrin - having overheard Elayne and Galwyn's conversation - manipulates Elayne into leaving by making her believe Morgase is in imminent danger). Siuan won't say where she's gone. Galwyn is apoplectic and storms off to Camelyn, where Rahvin sees him as a wild card and potential threat to his plans. So Rahvin manipulates Morgase into sending Galwyn away to look for Elayne - poisoning him further against the Aes Sedai. Then Morgase dies. [We contrive a way for Galwyn to learn of this - but he attributes it to an Aes Sedai plot, not to Rand] Bereft and spitting fire, Galwyn ends up with the Whitecloaks, seeking out revenge against the witches that killed his family.

 

The arc is essentially Galad's from there. He slowly realizes that he's been played. Finds out mom was held prisoner, raped, and - he believes - killed by the Whitecloaks. He challenges and kills the Lord Captain. Honored by the devotion of his men, he agrees to become the Lord Captain. He heals the Whitecloak/Perrin rift and ends up with Berelain.

 

What is lost is in this version: Obviously, Gawyn's post-Salidar attempts to woo Egwene, the Warder bond, and the blood knife stuff. But all of that is ultimately unnecessary to the plot. It can be written out or given to another character. Egwene doesn't need a love interest. Her plot line should be focused on the Tower. 

 

I just feel that Galwyn is a character who would matter to television audiences, whereas Galad and Gawyn independently will get lost in the shuffle.

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

But then who would Faile rage at Perrin for being nice to?

well, more seriously, I think they will strongly tone down Faile. Just like in the witcher tv show they made Jennefer much less of a jerk than she was in the books, probably to make her more acceptable to the public - because really, the way she was in the book, i have no idea how Geralt can still be in love with her - so I think they will also make a lot of the good characters more nice in this tv adaptation.

And Faile is first there, because her behavior towards Perrin is straight out abusive, especially at first.

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

well, more seriously, I think they will strongly tone down Faile. Just like in the witcher tv show they made Jennefer much less of a jerk than she was in the books, probably to make her more acceptable to the public - because really, the way she was in the book, i have no idea how Geralt can still be in love with her - so I think they will also make a lot of the good characters more nice in this tv adaptation.

And Faile is first there, because her behavior towards Perrin is straight out abusive, especially at first.

There's definitely a fine line they have to walk with some of these characters to keep them true to their core identity while simultaneously making them more likable on screen. Faile can still be an angry, jealous woman. But they'll really have to highlight her better qualities so audiences don't hate her. The same thing goes for Nynaeve. She can't just be a bully all the time.

 

I'm so excited to see how they manage it.

[mistborn82]

I think alot of the characters will have their development smoothed out. Like Nyneave goes back and forth, Faile does the same and they'll probably drop her manipulation of Loial because the audience will hate her forever otherwise.

Perrin will be more even and not all shoved into TOM.

Elayne vascilates from responsible to self brat so that will be smoothed.

If they get that far, my guess is Beslin will just be king of Ebu Dar as going anywhere near Tylin is just asking for trouble because getting her right would require an impossible number of changes, some of which Randland isn't built for.

[Elder_Haman]

33 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

Tylin is just asking for trouble because getting her right would require an impossible number of changes, some of which Randland isn't built for.

Tylin would be so much fun to try to adapt though.