Do we have Elayne or Min?

[dragonsworn87]

On 2/5/2020 at 7:50 PM, Freya12 said:

I agree. I have believed Kate Franz is Elayne since December.

I think there is a good likeness there to how Jordan described her.

[johnnysd]

Rafe did like an Instagram AMA, and essentially confirmed that at least Min is in the first season.

[AquilaInfernus]

On 5/11/2020 at 7:21 AM, johnnysd said:

Rafe did like an Instagram AMA, and essentially confirmed that at least Min is in the first season.

Rafe also, I wouldn't say mocked, but heavily disparaged questions about combining any of Elayne, Min or Aviendha.

 

I've previously floated the idea of moving Min from stabling horses at the Stag and Lion to The Queen's Blessing (probably cutting Lamgwin here), giving her access to Gill's library (and therefore grounding in philosophy - sorry Herid Fel, you're cut too), can be sent to Tar Valon by Moiraine as messenger girl when it becomes clear they need to go via the Ways to Fal Dara (culling loads of expositional detail later), and have a more meaningful intro to her visions (she can vouch for Rand and Mat when they arrive at the Blessing).

[Thrasymachus]

I don't think Fel needs to be cut.  He's barely in it as it is, and some of the secondary/tertiary cast needs to be in the story just to be killed off, in order to show the high stakes of the whole situation

[Harldin]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I don't think Fel needs to be cut.  He's barely in it as it is, and some of the secondary/tertiary cast needs to be in the story just to be killed off, in order to show the high stakes of the whole situation

 Fel is a cameo only, maybe 2 Scenes, nothing more and you could have Rand and Min talk about him and get most of it anyway.

[Thrasymachus]

Which is exactly why he doesn't really need to be cut.  He doesn't take up much screen time, but his death has a huge impact on Min, serves to illustrate that Rand's on the right track with his more academic/metaphysical way of working out the mysteries of his prophecied role in the Last Battle and what to do about the Taint, and demonstrates the hidden danger that's all around Rand wherever he goes.  It's a minor cost to include him, with a big enough narrative payout to make it worth it.

 

If I may make a bad analogy, adapting a book series like this for TV is like taking a 21 course feast and trying to winnow it down to a 6 course meal, trying to make sure the smaller meal captures as many of the same dining experiences as the larger feast as is possible.  Some big dishes will have to be cut, and others will have to be combined.  But when we start getting into the smaller aspects of the dishes, it starts to be like cutting out one or another of the spices or seasonings to the dish.  You risk changing the flavor entirely, or leaving it bland.

 

 

Cutting Fel is a relatively small cut to make.  But it's like cutting the salt out of a bread recipe.  You'll still get bread, it'll just taste rather bland.  And it doesn't cost much to include it, for the flavor you'll be rewarded with.

[Harldin]

8 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

Which is exactly why he doesn't really need to be cut.  He doesn't take up much screen time, but his death has a huge impact on Min, serves to illustrate that Rand's on the right track with his more academic/metaphysical way of working out the mysteries of his prophecied role in the Last Battle and what to do about the Taint, and demonstrates the hidden danger that's all around Rand wherever he goes.  It's a minor cost to include him, with a big enough narrative payout to make it worth it.

 

If I may make a bad analogy, adapting a book series like this for TV is like taking a 21 course feast and trying to winnow it down to a 6 course meal, trying to make sure the smaller meal captures as many of the same dining experiences as the larger feast as is possible.  Some big dishes will have to be cut, and others will have to be combined.  But when we start getting into the smaller aspects of the dishes, it starts to be like cutting out one or another of the spices or seasonings to the dish.  You risk changing the flavor entirely, or leaving it bland.

 

 

Cutting Fel is a relatively small cut to make.  But it's like cutting the salt out of a bread recipe.  You'll still get bread, it'll just taste rather bland.  And it doesn't cost much to include it, for the flavor you'll be rewarded with.

Sorry i think my post may have been a bit confusing, I actually meant that we should get the scene with Rand, Min and Fel, then have Rand keep Min updated on what Fel finds, with maybe a second short scene between Rand and Fel about cleansing the Taint. Then of course you have Fel’s death.

[AquilaInfernus]

On 5/21/2020 at 12:20 PM, Thrasymachus said:

I don't think Fel needs to be cut.  He's barely in it as it is, and some of the secondary/tertiary cast needs to be in the story just to be killed off, in order to show the high stakes of the whole situation

Being barely in it is precisely why I can't see him being cast. In all likelihood far more plot sensitive characters will be combined (Whitecloaks and Aes Sedai look good here). Don't get me wrong, I think Fel is a great character in the books but the books aren't constrained by anything except binding limits, while even a $10M/episode production still needs to establish even the most fleetingly significant characters

[Ascended]

This is why I worry about this show. 

 

What do you cut? What *can* you cut? Fel appears, what, twice in the books? Easy to cut that out. Conventional wisdom says he's a character you can easily remove. But Fel brings a lot to the table despite his lack of page time; he helps illustrate Rand's plans, hopes, and thoughts about his role in the Last Battle, he sets Min on the path of philosophy, he's essentially the "face" of Rand's school (despite not being the headmaster) and the school tells us a lot about Rand as a character and what he hopes to accomplish and leave behind. And of course, Fel's death cements not only the stakes but also that Rand is on the right track regarding the seals to the Dark One's prison.

 

So who else do you use to fill in for all of that? Moraine? Rand barely trusts her. Thom? Sure he knows a lot of stuff a gleeman shouldn't, but this seems outside even his purview. Loial? Perhaps; he is a main source of random academia. But even if one of these characters can provide the same information Fel provides, what about all the rest of it? What about the school and what it represents to Rand? What about the death that proves Rand is on the right track? Is this going to help push Min towards philosophy? 

 

The show needs some red shirts, and honestly Fel serves this role well because his death, while a strong motivation, is the least of what he offers the story. 

 

But like I said, this is why I worry about the show. The WoT is dense and minor characters often have a deep impact; cutting a character who seems inconsequential at first glance could end up unraveling the whole thing.

[Thrasymachus]

That's exactly it, Ascended.  He makes a perfect "redshirt."

 

One character that I think can be cut is Jaichim Carridin.  He doesn't really bring anything to anybody's story, he mainly serves as an insider's perspective on the insidiousness of the Dark.  He accomplishes nothing of note, and ends up drowned in his favorite drink for failure.  It's an interesting diversion and bit of world-building for the novels, but it's not essential for the TV series.

 

I imagine one could pretty significantly cut Bayle Domon and Egeanin's story line as well.  They don't have to be cut entirely, though they could be.  

[Harldin]

24 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

That's exactly it, Ascended.  He makes a perfect "redshirt."

 

One character that I think can be cut is Jaichim Carridin.  He doesn't really bring anything to anybody's story, he mainly serves as an insider's perspective on the insidiousness of the Dark.  He accomplishes nothing of note, and ends up drowned in his favorite drink for failure.  It's an interesting diversion and bit of world-building for the novels, but it's not essential for the TV series.

 

I imagine one could pretty significantly cut Bayle Domon and Egeanin's story line as well.  They don't have to be cut entirely, though they could be.  

The only problem with cutting Bayle’s story is how do Rand, Thom and Mat get to Whitebridge? Egeanin is also central to the storyline about Sul’dam being able to learn to Channel and she would be a good way to introduce Seanchan culture and the way they do things.

I’m going to have to agree with @Ascended on this, they need to be careful who they cut,  a seemingly minor-ish character can be far more important than the amount of screen time and lines they get. Egeanin/Lealwin is very much a window into Seanchan society, and her rise and fall. Do we need her relationship with Bayle Domon, probably not, but I wouldn’t be disappointed if it did go that way.

[Thrasymachus]

Egeanin plays that role in the novels, sure, but it's not essential for her to play that role.  We have Tuon for the Seanchan perspective later on, when it makes more sense thematically to begin humanizing the Seanchan.  The revelation about sul'dam can be dealt with both more generally and more directly, confronting the Seanchan later on with converted sul'dam, while discussions among the main characters before that can deal with it being relevatory for the Seanchan in the first place.  The whole bit about the Seeker can be dropped.

 

If they keep the flight down the Arinelle for Rand, Mat and Thom, and I'm not convinced they will, Domon doesn't even have to be a named character for that, or show up again for his minor appearances later on.  The Wonder Girls don't make use of him in Falme, and while he helps out in Tanchico, it's nothing that can't be handled by Thom, Juilin, and a bit of coin. 

 

Hell, I could see cutting out the Sad Bracelets storyline entirely.  Semirhage can take over Rand some other way, possibly using the True Power, forcing Rand to take it to escape her.  They'll have to find something else for Elayne and Nynaeve to do, but if they go north intending to return to Tar Valon following the fall of the Stone instead, they can encounter Suian, Min, Leane and Logain, and join that arc.  Which would help keep Suian and Leane from becoming almost main characters themselves.  And help tighten up the friendship between Elayne and Min to make the threesome a bit more believable and palatable for TV audiences.

[Ascended]

I can see Egeanin and Domon being cut, or reduced to bit characters with only a couple lines of dialogue, without it impacting too many plot threads. But you still gotta be careful; who became Egwene's Warder when Gawyn got his fool self killed? Egeanin. Who brought the second Seal to Falme? Domon. 

 

You can get around those particular examples easily enough yeah, but that's not really the point; these are things that you might not think of immediately and say "Sure, let's cut these characters." Then down the road, you find that there's a whole subplot or deus ex machina or whatever that the cut character/s were central to, and now you have to find a way to make the plot work without them. If that happens once or twice, no big deal, at best you find a smooth way to transition through the story beat, at worst you might end up with a few plot holes in an episode or two. But that stuff adds up, and with this series? Cutting minor characters could add up to a whole lot of problems real quick.

[Harldin]

2 hours ago, Ascended said:

I can see Egeanin and Domon being cut, or reduced to bit characters with only a couple lines of dialogue, without it impacting too many plot threads. But you still gotta be careful; who became Egwene's Warder when Gawyn got his fool self killed? Egeanin. Who brought the second Seal to Falme? Domon. 

 

You can get around those particular examples easily enough yeah, but that's not really the point; these are things that you might not think of immediately and say "Sure, let's cut these characters." Then down the road, you find that there's a whole subplot or deus ex machina or whatever that the cut character/s were central to, and now you have to find a way to make the plot work without them. If that happens once or twice, no big deal, at best you find a smooth way to transition through the story beat, at worst you might end up with a few plot holes in an episode or two. But that stuff adds up, and with this series? Cutting minor characters could add up to a whole lot of problems real quick.

I would like to see them keep Egeanin, I think her rise to the blood then her fall to become leilwin Shipless is at the very heart of the Seanchan Society in a way you could never do with Tuon. But it all depends on how deep they go with the Seanchan. 
You could cut the Seanchan, other than Falme and still tell a brilliant story, they are more about life post Tarmon Gai’don, not that i would want them to.

[Barid]

You cannot cut the Seanchan, they are huge, and have a huge impact on the story. Generally they just up the stakes, setting more pressure on Tar Valon and Rand, and really just the whole Westlands feal their touch, even though half of them never see a Seanchan. 

 

Spoilers

Not to mention that Mat’s story wouldn’t be as grand. He wouldn’t be the greatest general in the world, with the greatest single army of the world.

 

I never liked Egeanin, but (for reasons listed up above) I think they should keep her. 

[mistborn82]

Unfortunately, not everything everyone wants kept will be, especially all the minor characters and storylines that lead nowhere.

[Thrasymachus]

Axing Egeanin and Domon doesn't axe much of the relevant features of the Seanchan.  She provides a perspective on the Seanchan we don't really need, and her effect on the overall story is minimal at best.  I agree you can't cut the Seanchan, but Egeanin doesn't add much that can't be done better, later, from a different perspective.  Besides, as cut off as she is from her culture, she doesn't offer much perspective of the Seanchan at all.  She mostly exists to show off the Seekers and how they operate, and then gives Mat pointers on how to woo Tuon.  None of that's really all that essential.  Of all the major secondary characters, I would put her and Domon as most easily cut from the story, above Morgase and Galad, and even Gawyn.

[Harldin]

24 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Axing Egeanin and Domon doesn't axe much of the relevant features of the Seanchan.  She provides a perspective on the Seanchan we don't really need, and her effect on the overall story is minimal at best.  I agree you can't cut the Seanchan, but Egeanin doesn't add much that can't be done better, later, from a different perspective.  Besides, as cut off as she is from her culture, she doesn't offer much perspective of the Seanchan at all.  She mostly exists to show off the Seekers and how they operate, and then gives Mat pointers on how to woo Tuon.  None of that's really all that essential.  Of all the major secondary characters, I would put her and Domon as most easily cut from the story, above Morgase and Galad, and even Gawyn.

The other thing they could do is actually expand Egeanin’s role, have her rise even higher than in the Books, to maybe one of the leading General’s, then show the fall at the hands of Tuon. 
Egeanin is one of the very few Seanchan we see until the attack on the White Cloak HQ,  and then Abu Dar, she serves as a reminder that the Seanchan threat is still out there. You could go one of 2 ways with the Seanchan, the way the books went, with an occasional reminder that they are still out there, or you can completely ignore them and make the attack on Abu Dar a complete surprise. 

[mistborn82]

Gawyn can't be killed off until he and Galad get kicked around the sparring ground by half-dead Mat.

Edited May 27, 2020 by mistborn82

[Thrasymachus]

The Seanchan took Tarabon almost immediately following Nynaeve and Elayne's departure from there when they found the Sad Bracelets, between books four and five.  And then they took Amadicia.  Ebou Dar was the last of the nations the Seanchan took, though they were trying to take Arad Domon later, Ituralde held them off, and then Rand eventually made peace with them.

 

Egeanin's perspective is one of humanizing the Seanchan, not magnifying their threat.  In her early PoVs, even she is uncertain about the imminence of the Return's, well, return, after Falme.  And she's the first Seanchan "good guy" long before we need to have any Seanchan good guys.  Even as a "good guy" she's mainly an adjunct to the main character's actions.  Helping Elayne and Nynaeve, then helping Mat, finally helping Egwene.  But she's not necessary in any of those roles. 

 

The most important thing she does thematically is set up the possibility for the audience to see the Seanchan as realistic partners and allies in the Last Battle.  But there are other perspectives and scenes that can set up that idea, beginning with Egwene's time as a damane.  Which is obviously something that can't be cut, much like the Seanchan themselves can't be.

[mistborn82]

Egwene's treatment must be expanded and effects shown, her very real PTSD should shape her arc, even though it's completely glossed over immediately, with only a throwaway line or two about vile seachan later.

On another issue, I wish we knew what Mat's windfinder rescue was for. Was it just a throwaway of how bad the Seanchan were or was it going somewhere?

[Elendir]

I don't understand why so many fans want to cut different characters right away. You don't need to cut Jaichim Carridin, just get rid of his POVs. Whitecloks will appear in the book, why should one of them not be named Jaichim Carridin and be in the places where he was. If the corresponding arcs of the main characters do not change.

Bayle Domon and Egeanin are in similari situation, if we keep the arcs of the main characters, then these characters will be there and can be called Bayle Domon and Egeanin. All you have to do is get rid of their separate chapters.

 

Another case is Berelain, which somebody want to get rid of in another thread. If we remove her, we will not gain any time. She is part of the arcs of the main characters. We can reduce her action by reducing Perin arc (saving of Faile) and not cut her whole off.

 

Cuting is meant to reduce time, and if we don't want to reduce the main arcs, we can't get rid of the characters that appear on them. This does not mean that we cannot reduce their occurrence beyond the main arcs.

[mistborn82]

Carridin you have to keep for the most part because he basically starts the war between Tarabon and Arad Doman.

[Harldin]

The problem is, there are a lot of and i mean a lot of recurring Characters in these Books, could even hit the three figure mark, as well as a steadily growing Main cast, most of who will be in the final series, the Producers are going to have to cut out or amalgamate Characters or it simply will be to unwieldy. 

I fully expect to be disappointed that a character has been reduced, amalgamated with another character or cut entirely, it happens with every adaptation i have ever seen, it happened in LOTR it happened in GOT, it will happen in WOT. But i can live with that as long as they get the basic story right.

[AquilaInfernus]

The tension seems to be between the practicalities of show adaptation (budget etc) and the influence of characters on the plot.

The way I reconcile this is to consider the characters’ actions, not their individualism. When you look at actions only, characters like Fel or Carridin become vessels for important points, but the individual is not a core part of this.

Fel essentially provides a trigger point for Min to decipher the philosophical battle Rand is fighting.

Carridin starts the war on Almoth Plain and gets tortured for his trouble, neither justify the show’s practical investment in an actor to uniquely perform these actions.

 

Its why I gave Min a backstory in reading to remove Fel, and Carridin can be combined with Valda/Niall