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Dagon Thyne

Something I never understood about Rand...

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People always attribute Rand's effect on the land to him being Ta'veren, but that doesn't quite make since.  Ta'veren effect odds.  They can't make something that is impossible happen.  For example, Mat can effect how a dice is rolled because it's purely ods, but he has less effect on cards because it's less based on odds because a person is doing the shuffling and each person might shuffle different.  So the odds change from person to person.

 

Rand's connection to the land literally makes dead things come back to life.  Like the apple tree in the prologue of....I forget which one it was in.  

 

Rand literally changes reality,  That can't be because of him being a Ta'veren.  I always had a theory that Rand and Ishy were literal analogues to Jesus and the Anti-Christ.  Each with some part of their either the creator or the dark one's power.  So I think Rand's effect on the land and especially his ability to directly and purposely alter reality to completely recreate the DO's prison is because he somehow has the ability to tap into a small part of the creator's power.

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Posted (edited)

i thougth that had to do with what we in rp labeled uncommon luck talent (the dices that is) 

 

also to which degree you affect the patern hasnt that to do in part with how strong a ta'veren you are

 

the stronger you are the more you can affect it, also personality and skill influence how it works so it doesnt work the same for every ta'veren

 

and rand is considered to be a very very strong ta'veren

Edited by Liitha

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Ta'veren don't simply effect odds though. They influence life threads to create change. They're a focal point for ta'maral'ailen; correcting the Wheel when the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern it's supposed to be following.

They seem to impact the Pattern based on their own personalities and skills, as Lii mentioned. Perrin's ta'veren role seems to be his ability to hold sway over people, so they do /say / react to things they otherwise wouldn't. Mat, on the other hand, does, as you say, twist the laws of chance. That tends to be limited to his immediate environs rather than widespread. 

Rand, however, being incredibly strong, causes lots of unpredictable / improbable things to occur, from throwing the laws of chance out of whack to causing an apple tree to regenerate. It's out of his control, covering anything from a small, local area to being spread much further afield.
 

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Remember what Moiraine said "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the dragon".  Some of it like the apple trees isn't just him being a Ta'veren it's him being the dragon also.  Being the dragon means Rand has a strong connection to the land and the land reacts to him.  BS had said he was trying to avoid Rand being jesus thing, so some of the things like his meeting with Tuon before the Last Battle was him using the growth song and not any power.  Rand said the pattern is balance.  So with the DO so strong and influencing the evil stuff towards the end, Rand's Ta'vern things no longer were creating bad stuff like before.  All his Ta'vernness was simply making good stuff happen.

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One way I look at it, is that Rand is like a focal point of bubbles.

While the DO probably can't direct bubbles of evil, they represent the chaos and entropy that is the DO infecting the very fabric of reality. (The DO is the Hotplate, the Pattern is the pot of Water, and the Bubbles of Evil are the boiling water.)

Inversely, Rand being Ta'Varen, and the Dragon, which is based on Arthurian mythology. Rand's Physical and Mental health are quite literally tied to the land. How he is doing largely effects how much good or evil is going on with his Ta'Varen'ess warping reality.

This clearly changes at the end of the novel when Rand basically pulls a Kwisatz Haderach (Bene Gesserit), Neo (Matrix) and effectively purges himself of madness/sickness, just by making it happen.

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That still doesn't explain himhaving the ability to literally alter reality at will, like he did when he fully created the DO's prison, which exists outside of the pattern.  He literally repaired the bore, to the point that it was as if it never existed. Even a Ta'veren wouldn't that much control over the pattern, and that can't be attributed to his connection to the land,since the bore was not a physical part of the world, but a hole in time and space.  

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55 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

That still doesn't explain himhaving the ability to literally alter reality at will, like he did when he fully created the DO's prison, which exists outside of the pattern.  He literally repaired the bore, to the point that it was as if it never existed. Even a Ta'veren wouldn't that much control over the pattern, and that can't be attributed to his connection to the land,since the bore was not a physical part of the world, but a hole in time and space.  

It does kinda though. 

 

His base Ta'veren power, connected his health to the land. He couldn't control his physical or mental health throughout most of the series, thus he couldn't control how he affected the land.

 

After Dragonmount, that all changed.
He starts to exhibit greater control over how he affects reality around him. This comes to a head during the final battle, when he's able to weave the pattern itself.

 

Re: The bore.

The bore may not be a "physical" part of the world, but it does exists everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
 

All that means is that the final battle, didn't have to take place at Shayol Ghul.. even though it had to. The pattern is thinnest at the site of the bore, but it's also not. 

 

The very fact that the bore/DO's prison is able to interact with reality, means that reality is able to interact with the DO's prison... Before the breaking, Channelers were able to pierce the DO's prison, which existed outside of reality.. This hints that his prison exists, and doesn't exist in our reality at the same time. Part of the final battle over destroying the DO basically says that the DO existing, influences reality in small ways (Chaos/Entropy) even from within that prison...

 

Uggh, I feel like I've rambled enough for today.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It does kinda though. 

 

His base Ta'veren power, connected his health to the land. He couldn't control his physical or mental health throughout most of the series, thus he couldn't control how he affected the land.

 

After Dragonmount, that all changed.
He starts to exhibit greater control over how he affects reality around him. This comes to a head during the final battle, when he's able to weave the pattern itself.

 

Re: The bore.

The bore may not be a "physical" part of the world, but it does exists everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
 

All that means is that the final battle, didn't have to take place at Shayol Ghul.. even though it had to. The pattern is thinnest at the site of the bore, but it's also not. 

 

The very fact that the bore/DO's prison is able to interact with reality, means that reality is able to interact with the DO's prison... Before the breaking, Channelers were able to pierce the DO's prison, which existed outside of reality.. This hints that his prison exists, and doesn't exist in our reality at the same time. Part of the final battle over destroying the DO basically says that the DO existing, influences reality in small ways (Chaos/Entropy) even from within that prison...

 

Uggh, I feel like I've rambled enough for today.

Except the bore is a hole in space/time.   It's not part of the land.  There wasn't a literal hole in the ground that leads to the dark one's prison.  It's literally a rip in reality.  The Dark One exists outside of reality.  He exists outside of time and space, and Rand literally repaired that hole in space time.    

 

And please don't mention the pit of doom  The pit of doom already existed.  Shayol ghul was originally a volcanic island, and the magma chamber that became known as the Pit of Doom already existed prior to the bore being created.  It just so happened that the weakest part of reality, where the Aes Sedai broke through, was inside the volcano.  

Edited by Dagon Thyne

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32 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Except the bore is a hole in space/time.   It's not part of the land. 

The land is part of space-time. It's part of the tapestry that makes up the weave/pattern.

The bore is a hole that weave/pattern.. Once that hole was created, it started interacting with the land, and the land started to interact with it.

 

38 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

And please don't mention the pit of doom  The pit of doom already existed.  Shayol ghul was originally a volcanic island, and the magma chamber that became known as the Pit of Doom already existed prior to the bore being created.  It just so happened that the weakest part of reality, where the Aes Sedai broke through, was inside the volcano.  

What's that got to do with anything?

There were previous RJ Q&A's where he basically said that the bore physically took place there. But it didn't have to. Nor does sealing it have to take place there, it just does.

The best way to look at the DO's prison is like D&D's pocket dimensions.

He exists outside of the current dimension/plane.

The Bore is the doorway. Reality can interact with said doorway. It can open and close it.

 

But unlike D&D's pocket dimensions, that doorway exists across the entire weave, which is why the DO can interact with things beyond just the Bore.

The entire pattern is being stretched apart. It being Thinnest at Shayol Ghul is largely inconsequential.

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If this helps the companion states "during the AOL Shayol Ghul was an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite escape for those who enjoyed the rustic.  After the breaking it became a mountain in the blasted lands, where the DO's prison was located.  More precisely Shayol Ghul was sort of a focus point, a place where the DO's prison lay close to the world - there was a thinness in the pattern, allowing the bore to be detected - so the focus of the DO's strength lay there."  So the mountain/Lava came after the breaking.  Shayol Ghul also wasn't the place the Aes Sedai orginally drilled a hole into his prison.  Shayol Ghul was simply the place where it was easiest to detect the bore, so it was the place easiest for the DO to influence the world/ speak to him/ or reach the bore to seal his prison.

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The apples and grass thing is not a Ta'veren effect, it is a form of treesinging practiced by the Aiel during the Age of Legends. Rand gained that ability when he regained LTT's memories.

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You forget that he can use both aspect of power one power as well as true power, energy as well as antienergy.

If you use two-particle approach, the rules change in compare to one particle approach.

 

1.       One half of one power = miracle

2.       Both half of one power = great miracle

3.       One power + true power = god like miracle

 

Dark one as well as his prison was power (energy) related. It means point 3 is enough for creation of prison.

Rand weaving of pattern after battle is more interesting or what he did. There is huge step from weaving energy to weaving matter.

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On 10/9/2019 at 2:52 PM, solarz said:

The apples and grass thing is not a Ta'veren effect, it is a form of treesinging practiced by the Aiel during the Age of Legends. Rand gained that ability when he regained LTT's memories.

Didn't Brandon say that Rand didn't know the song and that the Tinker's wouldn't have been able to learn it anyways, though?  I saw that as being just a little bit over the top.

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Rand knew the growing song not the song the tinkers were looking for.  BS confirmed the song the Tinkers were seeking didn't exist.  The growing song is what enabled him to make the place bloom when he met Tuon.

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The Tinkers are not looking for one partitcular song.  They are looking for ALL of the songs they sang during the age of legends.  They remembers singing in the age of legends, and misremembers it as a single song, and wanted to find that song again.    

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On 10/29/2019 at 9:05 AM, agreddon said:

Didn't Brandon say that Rand didn't know the song and that the Tinker's wouldn't have been able to learn it anyways, though?  I saw that as being just a little bit over the top.

 

The Tinkers forgot their history. This was revealed in the Rhuidean vision in book 4.

 

In the prologue of EOTW, LTT asked if Ishamael had "the Voice", which is basically the human version of Treesinging.

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BS did say that the song the Tinkers are looking for doesn't exist.  To be honest they aren't even sure what they are seeking anymore as Solarz pointed out they have forgotten their own history.  

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On 10/31/2019 at 3:48 PM, solarz said:

 

The Tinkers forgot their history. This was revealed in the Rhuidean vision in book 4.

 

In the prologue of EOTW, LTT asked if Ishamael had "the Voice", which is basically the human version of Treesinging.

I always thought that he was asking if Ishy could sing.  Never realized it was an actual type of singing.  I figured that singing was just traditional in the culture that LTT and his family took part in, and he was asking Ishy if he could sing and wanted to take part.

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