Egwene Appreciation Thread

[RandA lThor]

In my discussion in the most overrated character, it was pointed out that there is no Egwene appreciation thread, so I decided to see what would happen if I did. I am one of the few (I think), that has no major problem with Egwene. Sure, she was a little arrogant near the end when she was getting really mad, but she's actually been pretty good. She adapted to the Aiel ways in a way that few wetlanders could. Almost right after becoming Amyrlin, she was able to control what happened and win against the Hall. Although Siuan did help her in the beginning, she did it herself in the end. She was able to rally troops against Elaida, and then she was captured. She was able to withstand torture, demotion, and insults and at the same time, fight Elaida and the whole tower as a novice by convincing everyone that Elaida was bad. She led the assault on the Seanchan and was able to defeat Mesaana in TAR. In short, there are times when she is completely awesome and almost no one sees that. Anyways, I just wanted to see what people say on this board after hearing all of the above. Discuss.

[Sheepherder]

You're not completely alone. She certainly isn't my favorite character but I REALLY disliked egwene (and Nynaeve) in tEotW and have grown to like her as the story has progressed (Nynaeve is one of my favorites now). Its one of the things I love about WoT is that my opinion on characters has changed so much as I went along. It really demonstrates how great RJ is at writing dynamic characters. Back on topic, yes she is a bit arrogant and holier then thou at times (ok pretty much most of the time), but how many people who make it to that level of leadership don't have quite a bit of that? I've really liked, though, how devoted she is to bettering herself, under moraine, with the wise ones, with siuan, and during her captivity. She has also done more then quite a bit of other characters in really helping improve the situation before TG. I don't think her arrogance should overshadow everything else she has done and the fact that she is truly trying to help the world.

[Kahsm]

Best character. Finally someone who doesn't bitch and whine about their responsibilities. Someone who'll step up and take it, not out of megalomania, but an honest desire to better herself and be a part of something bigger, to matter. It's an entrepreneurial spirit that tends to be highly valued and respected in today's world, but overwhelmingly loathed in a story where, apparently, only the meek and humble can be truly "good".

[ironisles]

I see a train wreck ahead.

[Maleshub]

Up to the time she was summoned by the Salidar Hall, Egwene was dedicated to helping Rand, even if by ways that didn't conform to his wishes and whims. It was through that "weakness" that Liandrin tricked her and Nynaeve to go to Falme. It was why she, Nynaeve, and Elayne went to Tear; and so on.

 

She is sometimes blamed for not telling Rand where Salidar was; but reading that shows that she was afraid of Salidar's reaction to Rand, not vice versa. She didn't trust the rebels to deal with Rand in the right way.

 

She and Aviendha rushed to help Rand against Lanfear. And when Rand made his dome to isolate the battle field, Egwene and Aviendha were inside it, quicker than the Maidens or Mat.

 

Take the all-too-common female-male conflict from their relationship; and she tried to cover Rand's back most of the time prior to going to Salidar.

 

Another thing about Egwene is how much she has suffered compared to others. She was imprisoned by the Whitecloaks, enslaved by the Seanchan for a few months, taken by brigands in Cairhien, imprisoned by the Black Ajah in Tear, and captured by Elaida. We see her fears and traumas; and how she struggles to overcome them.

 

Also, she shows and exceptional desire to learn. She is committed to learn. She goes to the White Tower, then to the Aiel Waste, and is tutored by Moiraine. Then she dedicates Siuan to teaching her how to fulfill her duty as Amyrlin. And she is willing to admit her mistakes and learn from them.

[Sheepherder]

I see a train wreck ahead.

 

Why? You planning on changing the track? It's an Egwene appreciation thread not a what do you think of her thread. If you don't like her don't post. My personal suggestion is to ignore any negative posts so things don't get derailed but I know how often that happens so I'll just cross my fingers.

[Suttree]

I see a train wreck ahead.

 

Why? You planning on changing the track? It's an Egwene appreciation thread not a what do you think of her thread. If you don't like her don't post.

 

Ahh the idealism of newbs...

[Aulduron]

I'm actually a fan of hers.

[Durinax]

I will say one thing about egwene, she takes initiative... most of the time

 

but on the aspect of people not appreciating egwene based on not seeing how awesome she is, well the thing is that we see her being awesome, at absolutely everything I can't think of a thing she is not good at

[TristanWebb]

The only real problem with Egwene is that she is a woman in WoT. If she didn't think that men were useless and had to be told what to do -all of the time- she would be a good character. But because she is a woman in WoT that isn't an option. She is still one of the best females around, I don't think there are any others in the series that could of fixed the WT as much as she did. I just wish they were more like Min, who can see that Rand is smart enough that he can make his own descisions alot of the time.

[Elvira_Sedai]

I,m ever being her hardcore fan for a very long time , but now I start to realise that Egwene is even something more . Her leadership style and personal agenda being the best she can and making better everything she can remind me of Roofmistress of All role in comparison with Rand's Warchief of All one . I think that if Rand's main goal is saving the World's existance , that Egwene's one is making this World worthy to being saved .

I beleave that Egwene's storyarc is RJ's way to show us how exactly our famous legend of Her , Who is the Maiden Who is the Mother Who is the Crone was born . She already particulary fullfilled this in her counterstrike with Mesaana in ToM , but I think we can see more of it in aMoL . I mean that every major character has sacrifice something very significant ( Rand - his hand , Mat - his eye etc ) and Egwene , my little foreshadowing , will sacrifice perhaps the most a woman can - her Youth . Either wasting huge amount of inner strenght and power or somehow using Bloodknife rings which Gawyn now wears on his neck , her hair would become gray and face whimy while all her other body parts still be a Maiden's one

[blueeys54]

You're not completely alone. She certainly isn't my favorite character but I REALLY disliked egwene (and Nynaeve) in tEotW and have grown to like her as the story has progressed (Nynaeve is one of my favorites now). Its one of the things I love about WoT is that my opinion on characters has changed so much as I went along. It really demonstrates how great RJ is at writing dynamic characters. Back on topic, yes she is a bit arrogant and holier then thou at times (ok pretty much most of the time), but how many people who make it to that level of leadership don't have quite a bit of that? I've really liked, though, how devoted she is to bettering herself, under moraine, with the wise ones, with siuan, and during her captivity. She has also done more then quite a bit of other characters in really helping improve the situation before TG. I don't think her arrogance should overshadow everything else she has done and the fact that she is truly trying to help the world.

 

Trying to help the world?!?! She is trying to help the Aes Sedai's influence on the world. Trying to control the Kin, Windfinders, and Wise Ones. The only reason the Black Tower isn't included in there is because they are more powerful than the White Tower. At least they will be when they remove Taim and his cronies. All political posturing to try and regain control. That is what she is all about. What she thinks is best for the world. If somebody disagrees, then they need to be brought around by any means necessary. If they happen to agree, then they need to agree in a manner that allows the White Tower to dictate and control events. She may inadvertantly help the world, but that isn't her driving goal.

[fionwe1987]

I was just going to post that any Egwene appreciation post is bound to be quickly disrupted with vitriol. What was I thinking? I should have known I was too late for that!

 

Anyway, someone pointed out that she is the only main character who actually sought change, and didn't have it thrust on her. I think it speaks loads about her. To be a great leader, you can be ta'veren and have destiny play its hand, or you can take what is given to you and use your intelligence and determination to be the best at the job you're given. I've always admired that Egwene did that, and how she fully embraced the responsibility of her position even when she barely had any of the power that went with it. That is exactly the kind of person you want leading.

[Barid Bel Medar]

One of the main problems I see with regards to Egwene is people often do not remember that they story is not yet finished. This is in regards to the Seal debate. It is assumed she will go crazy and try and leash Rand or some nonsense, more a catalogue of what people think she will do, rather than a recount of the things she has done.

 

What she has done, for the most part, is good.

 

Of course she is an arrogant woman. She is Aes Sedai, and has adapted unfortunately most of the failings they possess. Which is not ideal, but necessary to be Amyrlin. If she had done what Nynaeve had, and not changed her stance, the truth is that she would have fallen long since.

 

Unlike Rand, Mat and Perrin, she does not have the innate power to lead and command as she wants. Which is one of the more endearing traits she has, her perseverance and sacrifices she makes to help the world. I like Elvira_Sedai's line about Rand saving the world, but Egwene making it worthy. I agree, I think that Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Egwene are all there to make the world worthy of being saved. Of saving itself.

 

Egwene has gone a bit over the top in her zeal at times, true, but that is her character. She throws everything she has into what she does, no reservations. She becomes Amyrlin, - no matter your opinion this is simple fact - because she thinks it is the best way to help Rand, which means help the world.

 

Yes she is power-obsessed, but not for bad reasons. It is not because she wants to rule the world, it is a product of having to deal with Aes Sedai. She uses a heavy hand and demands obedience because she is insecure. Because, shown the slightest weakness, the Aes Sedai would take the power away. What she needs to do is learn to trust her allies more, but it is not something that makes her a monster.

 

The only thing I dislike about Egwene actually comes from the fans themselves. It is fan perception that distorts things, on both sides. She is no monster, but she is no God either. It seems either she can do no wrong, or she can do no right and thus the argument begins. The biggest crap is when either pro or anti people try and compare her with Rand. It is something which Egwene has not desired, nor Rand, it is totally a fan thing. Rand and Egwene are in different leagues, their roles too different to compare. It seems to be which one is right, and which is wrong, rather than how they will work it out. It doesn't matter who gets the better of whom (which I doubt will happen), unless one of them tries something really stupid in aMoL, there is no reason to compete.

 

But her character is neither of these two, strictly reading without any preconceptions, she is just a girl, now a woman, doing the best she knows how, shouldering great responsibility. She makes mistakes, grave and trivial, but she has a good heart and intentions.

[Suttree]

I was just going to post that any Egwene appreciation post is bound to be quickly disrupted with vitriol. What was I thinking? I should have known I was too late for that!

 

 

She is trying to help the Aes Sedai's influence on the world. Trying to control the Kin, Windfinders, and Wise Ones.

 

Care to explain how the channeling exchange program give the the AS any advantage in being able to control those groups? The deal is one of the more important moves she has made to integrate channelers and change the culture of the WT.

 

All political posturing to try and regain control. That is what she is all about. What she thinks is best for the world. If somebody disagrees, then they need to be brought around by any means necessary. If they happen to agree, then they need to agree in a manner that allows the White Tower to dictate and control events. She may inadvertantly help the world, but that isn't her driving goal.

 

We have been hit over the head with a sledgehammer time and time again with how much pressure she feels in fighting the shadow and reforming the WT. There is quote after quote after quote showing this to be the case. You can argue wether AS are the group most suited to do so at this point, but you can not argue that isn't her driving goal.

[Maleshub]

I just wish they were more like Min, who can see that Rand is smart enough that he can make his own descisions alot of the time.

 

This made me think of Aviendha when she told Min that Rand would have to take care of his own problems till she took care of her own problems. It is amusing to read how Min and Aviendha mirrored each other in their reactions to different actions, especially in "A Lily in Winter." I think that both have spent enough time with Rand and saw enough of his actions and work to trust that he can take care of himself.

 

I also think that Egwene's trust in Rand is almost ignored in debates. There are instances where both argue with each other that give the impression that Egwene doesn't think Rand knows what he's doing. But when time for action comes, action that Rand decides on, Egwene is there with him. I don't remember her bailing out on him prior to the summons to Salidar. She was there for him in TEotW at the end, in Fal Darra at the start of TGH, and in Tear and Cairhien later on, even when helping him violated her Aes Sedai training (using the power in battle in Cairhien).

 

And in ToM, she understood during their meeting that she must see him as Rand, a man to be trusted with the fate of the world.

[fionwe1987]

The only thing I dislike about Egwene actually comes from the fans themselves. It is fan perception that distorts things, on both sides. She is no monster, but she is no God either. It seems either she can do no wrong, or she can do no right and thus the argument begins. The biggest crap is when either pro or anti people try and compare her with Rand. It is something which Egwene has not desired, nor Rand, it is totally a fan thing. Rand and Egwene are in different leagues, their roles too different to compare. It seems to be which one is right, and which is wrong, rather than how they will work it out. It doesn't matter who gets the better of whom (which I doubt will happen), unless one of them tries something really stupid in aMoL, there is no reason to compete.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think you're right when you say Rand and Egwene cannot be compared. The way they have been written, the themes that are explored in their stories, the symbols that represent them and their symbolic significance to the story... all of that invites comparison. As DomA said over at rafo, while Nynaeve most closely parallels Rand's "Champion persona" and "heroes coming of age" aspects, Egwene most closely parallels his political persona. There are a great many similarities in their character (and some major differences too). The pinnacle of this parallel growth of the story was seen in tGS, where there could be no doubt about the thematic mirroring between these characters. Their relationship, which is rife with conflict and teamwork, is the representation of saidin and saidar, which work against each other and together to turn the Wheel. So comparisons are inevitable, even good.

 

I think RJ did something very interesting with these two characters. In a world where agency is taken away from male channelers (and in a diluted way, from all males), and supreme power has rested in the hands of women for three millenia, he created his chief male protagonist such that his actions have the force of Prophesy and the support of his Pattern-bending nature.

 

On the other hand, the chielf female protagonist has none of these things. She isn't even the strongest a female channeler can be (though by all evidence, she does have great strength in all the five Powers, critical to her being the representation of saidar). All she has is her intelligence, her ambition, and her thirst for knowledge.

 

Notice the neat inversion here. Typically, the protagonist-as-representative-of-the-underclass would be the one with the thirst for knowledge, the ambition to prove her/himself in the world, and an unquenchable self-confidence. The protagonist who represents the old order (usually a friend or a love interest who belongs to the class with power, but is open, friendly and reasonable- someone like Elayne, if this were a nobles vs. pheasants story) is the one who must struggle with disgust for the power vested in them, and the fear of thier powers.

 

This is the combination of the character's personality and their position in society that usually endears them to the reader. Isn't it adorable that the Muggle-born Hermione wants all the magical knowledge there is, gets it, and shows up the evil wizards? Isn't it so noble that Dumbledore, the powerful wizard, overcame his disregard for the Muggles and learned to love them so much? Isn't Arya the cutest for being such good frinds with a poor bastard boy? Isn't Jon Snow's rise to leadership inspiring?

 

But here, reader sympathy for Rand is a given, since not only is he the underdog, the very powers that may allow him to win over the "bullies" is tainted. There is no upside for Rand, when we meet him. So we tend to react with extreme hostility to anyone perceived to making his way harder. And since his ultimate victory is the ostensible end point of the story, we easily adopt his viewpoint. So Moiraine trying to guide him is eeeeevil!

 

On the other hand, Egwene not only gets catapulted from village woman to powerful magic weilder, she actually wants it! Its like the pauper is forced to become rich on stolen money, while the prince wants more money and gets it too! So sympathizing with her is harder. On the surface, she is trying to strengthen the very organization that has oppressed people like our hero Rand. Why should we like that?

 

So it isn't that surprising that when the average readers react to these characters, they are very sympathetic towards Rand, and find Egwene highly annoying. Doesn't she have it all already? Why won't she let the poor bloke do his thankless task? Why does she need more power? How dare she presume to oppse the underdog? She needs to be shown her place! Rand will totally whup her ass in Merrilor! And so on...

 

What is clear in all this, though, is that RJ very carefully planted these things. And so, the relative power levels, Prophesies, ta'veren, etc. shouldn't be taken to mean that Rand has a much larger role than Egwene. I'm one of those people who subscribes to the theory that they're going to end up being equally improtant in the end game. And given that Egwene's "evil twin", Lanfear, has been recently thrust into prominence again, infiltrating Rand's dream no less, Egwene's involvement with some very intimate issues Rand will have is a given.

 

I beleive that the greatest thematic statement about male-female equality and the necessity for men and women to work together is made by having Egwene and Rand work together to seal the DO. Is it not only natural that when the DO is sealed away properly, it is with the representative characters of saidin and saidar, the Flame and the Fang, united together that achieves this? Doesn't this also round off the themes involved in the original opening of the Bore, where Aes Sedai, dissatisfied with the current level of synergy men and women can achieve, seek out an alien power they beleive would allow them the synergy they crave? After all, if the representative weilders of saidin and saidar can, through compromise and good sense and cameraderie, work together to seal away a powerful destructive being, what more synergy can be asked for?

 

...

Of course, there's another bit of trope-twisting here. It is the woman who is powerful, ambitious, and capable, and seeks and glories in responsibility, whereas it is the man who would be satisfied with a simple life, the man who is disenfranchised, the man who must seek power in a hostile society. I beleive that adds its own layer of sympathy/resentment. But that's another tale, and not something I really want to go into here.

[Elvira_Sedai]

The only thing I dislike about Egwene actually comes from the fans themselves. It is fan perception that distorts things, on both sides. She is no monster, but she is no God either. It seems either she can do no wrong, or she can do no right and thus the argument begins. The biggest crap is when either pro or anti people try and compare her with Rand. It is something which Egwene has not desired, nor Rand, it is totally a fan thing. Rand and Egwene are in different leagues, their roles too different to compare. It seems to be which one is right, and which is wrong, rather than how they will work it out. It doesn't matter who gets the better of whom (which I doubt will happen), unless one of them tries something really stupid in aMoL, there is no reason to compete.

 

But her character is neither of these two, strictly reading without any preconceptions, she is just a girl, now a woman, doing the best she knows how, shouldering great responsibility. She makes mistakes, grave and trivial, but she has a good heart and intentions.

 

Yes , I understand where its come from . For Christians and Muslems the God is perfect by defenition . For other religions , old or new does not matter , the Gods and Goddesses are the same as men and women with all their strenghts and weaknesses , just have supernatural power . The way RJ used in some characters analogies with some deities and famous heroes makes me think that he thought the same . Rand as a central figure has connection to many mythological characters - Marduk with destroying all chains and breaking old order , Hercules with doing a number of impossible things , a Green man with being one with the Land , Thur and others which I can not remember quickly . Nynaeve with her divine healing power has a strong connection to Isis and Minerva , Mat adventures and losing an eye relate him to Odin . Min's Viewings and interest in philosophy connect her to both Athena and the Sybils . For Egwene I said in my previous post . Those deities and heroes are in no way a perfect persons , they just made stories , or as someones believe , the History of the real World .

[fionwe1987]

I just wish they were more like Min, who can see that Rand is smart enough that he can make his own descisions alot of the time.

 

This made me think of Aviendha when she told Min that Rand would have to take care of his own problems till she took care of her own problems. It is amusing to read how Min and Aviendha mirrored each other in their reactions to different actions, especially in "A Lily in Winter." I think that both have spent enough time with Rand and saw enough of his actions and work to trust that he can take care of himself.

 

I also think that Egwene's trust in Rand is almost ignored in debates. There are instances where both argue with each other that give the impression that Egwene doesn't think Rand knows what he's doing. But when time for action comes, action that Rand decides on, Egwene is there with him. I don't remember her bailing out on him prior to the summons to Salidar. She was there for him in TEotW at the end, in Fal Darra at the start of TGH, and in Tear and Cairhien later on, even when helping him violated her Aes Sedai training (using the power in battle in Cairhien).

 

And in ToM, she understood during their meeting that she must see him as Rand, a man to be trusted with the fate of the world.

Nods.

 

And implicit in Rand's actions in ToM (though he was manipulating her) is his trust that Egwene will unite the rulers together so he can do what he wants to.

 

"What kind of Amyrlin is she?"

Why ask me? He couldn't know of the closeness between Siuan and Egwene. "She's an incredible one," Siuan said. "One of the greatest we've had, for all the fact that she's only held the Seat a short time."

He smiled again. "I should have expected nothing less. Strange, but I feel that seeing her again will hurt, though that is one wound that has well and truly healed. I can still remember the pain of it, I suppose."

[condonmc]

I dont really hate Eguene, just anyone who calls themselves Aes Sedia of the White Tower, its there way or the highway ....even if it puts the world in danger... They are all blinded by there need to be in control......p.s the more rereads of the series that you do, the more you come to dislike Egeune's character and the opinion she has about herself........still shes a bad ass gal..

What this post needs is an early copy of AMoL, That will settle this aregument!

[Elvira_Sedai]

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think you're right when you say Rand and Egwene cannot be compared. The way they have been written, the themes that are explored in their stories, the symbols that represent them and their symbolic significance to the story... all of that invites comparison. As DomA said over at rafo, while Nynaeve most closely parallels Rand's "Champion persona" and "heroes coming of age" aspects, Egwene most closely parallels his political persona. There are a great many similarities in their character (and some major differences too). The pinnacle of this parallel growth of the story was seen in tGS, where there could be no doubt about the thematic mirroring between these characters. Their relationship, which is rife with conflict and teamwork, is the representation of saidin and saidar, which work against each other and together to turn the Wheel. So comparisons are inevitable, even good.

 

I think RJ did something very interesting with these two characters. In a world where agency is taken away from male channelers (and in a diluted way, from all males), and supreme power has rested in the hands of women for three millenia, he created his chief male protagonist such that his actions have the force of Prophesy and the support of his Pattern-bending nature.

 

On the other hand, the chielf female protagonist has none of these things. She isn't even the strongest a female channeler can be (though by all evidence, she does have great strength in all the five Powers, critical to her being the representation of saidar). All she has is her intelligence, her ambition, and her thirst for knowledge.

 

Notice the neat inversion here. Typically, the protagonist-as-representative-of-the-underclass would be the one with the thirst for knowledge, the ambition to prove her/himself in the world, and an unquenchable self-confidence. The protagonist who represents the old order (usually a friend or a love interest who belongs to the class with power, but is open, friendly and reasonable- someone like Elayne, if this were a nobles vs. pheasants story) is the one who must struggle with disgust for the power vested in them, and the fear of thier powers.

 

This is the combination of the character's personality and their position in society that usually endears them to the reader. Isn't it adorable that the Muggle-born Hermione wants all the magical knowledge there is, gets it, and shows up the evil wizards? Isn't it so noble that Dumbledore, the powerful wizard, overcame his disregard for the Muggles and learned to love them so much? Isn't Arya the cutest for being such good frinds with a poor bastard boy? Isn't Jon Snow's rise to leadership inspiring?

 

But here, reader sympathy for Rand is a given, since not only is he the underdog, the very powers that may allow him to win over the "bullies" is tainted. There is no upside for Rand, when we meet him. So we tend to react with extreme hostility to anyone perceived to making his way harder. And since his ultimate victory is the ostensible end point of the story, we easily adopt his viewpoint. So Moiraine trying to guide him is eeeeevil!

 

On the other hand, Egwene not only gets catapulted from village woman to powerful magic weilder, she actually wants it! Its like the pauper is forced to become rich on stolen money, while the prince wants more money and gets it too! So sympathizing with her is harder. On the surface, she is trying to strengthen the very organization that has oppressed people like our hero Rand. Why should we like that?

 

So it isn't that surprising that when the average readers react to these characters, they are very sympathetic towards Rand, and find Egwene highly annoying. Doesn't she have it all already? Why won't she let the poor bloke do his thankless task? Why does she need more power? How dare she presume to oppse the underdog? She needs to be shown her place! Rand will totally whup her ass in Merrilor! And so on...

 

What is clear in all this, though, is that RJ very carefully planted these things. And so, the relative power levels, Prophesies, ta'veren, etc. shouldn't be taken to mean that Rand has a much larger role than Egwene. I'm one of those people who subscribes to the theory that they're going to end up being equally improtant in the end game. And given that Egwene's "evil twin", Lanfear, has been recently thrust into prominence again, infiltrating Rand's dream no less, Egwene's involvement with some very intimate issues Rand will have is a given.

 

I beleive that the greatest thematic statement about male-female equality and the necessity for men and women to work together is made by having Egwene and Rand work together to seal the DO. Is it not only natural that when the DO is sealed away properly, it is with the representative characters of saidin and saidar, the Flame and the Fang, united together that achieves this? Doesn't this also round off the themes involved in the original opening of the Bore, where Aes Sedai, dissatisfied with the current level of synergy men and women can achieve, seek out an alien power they beleive would allow them the synergy they crave? After all, if the representative weilders of saidin and saidar can, through compromise and good sense and cameraderie, work together to seal away a powerful destructive being, what more synergy can be asked for?

 

...

Of course, there's another bit of trope-twisting here. It is the woman who is powerful, ambitious, and capable, and seeks and glories in responsibility, whereas it is the man who would be satisfied with a simple life, the man who is disenfranchised, the man who must seek power in a hostile society. I beleive that adds its own layer of sympathy/resentment. But that's another tale, and not something I really want to go into here.

 

Just a great post ! I can add a bit Lets think about the title Wheel of time . My Wiccan mentality directly connects it to the Wheel of year , which is ruled by Goddess and God ( or Tripple Goddess and Horned God , or All-Mother and Green Man ) together .

Cannot resist a seduction to add that WoT using Five Elements of OP - air , earth , fire , spirit and water also comes form our Wiccan symbolism , the traditional one has only four

And I have to agree with you that being sympathetic to Rand is very easy to any reader , for taking and understanding Egwene's role and her place in the Pattern some analytic job is defenitely must .

[Barid Bel Medar]

@ fionwe1987 nice post! I agree with your assessment of their similarities, I was more talking about their actions in story. What Rand can do is different to Egwene, in regards to power and ta'veren etc... Example being Egwene's rise to power as Amyrlin, she has to adapt because she does not have the benefits that Rand does etc...

 

@Elvira_Sedai Sorry! My post was not in reply to yours! I wasn't talking about that type of comparison! In fact I agree with your post, I was just using it as a description. Saying she is not perfect. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[Kamin_Majere]

Egwene has evolved over the course of the story. The main problem with her is she is a child. I mean we start the story and she's all of 16 and by the time she's 18-19 she has been given the Amyrlin Seat.

 

She is quite smart and has a decent head on her shoulders but even so she's still very young. Give her 10-20 more years (assuming she makes it past the last battle) and i think she will truly be a force to reckoned with.

 

She has had to grow up quick and learn even faster, but at the base she is still a child and biologically her frontal brain still more resembles a sociopaths than a functioning adults. (i know that doesn't really fit "fantasy, but it does explain a lot of her characteristics)

 

She is not my favorite character by any stretch, but after her petulant child phase in the first book and until her "i know better than anyone else because i'm Amyrlin" phase she was a very interesting character. Give her 10-20 years in the big seat and i do believe she will have calmed down and can start to mold the world as a grown woman.

 

I agree with everyone in the books, she will probably be the best and most powerful Amyrlin ever, she just needs time to grow into the role.

 

So while currently she is back on my "not so favorite characters" list, if the books were to continue after AMoL then i think she would regain my interest as she grew into a true Amrylin

[randsc]

I'm not even going to comment on Egwene. I can't; I'm laughing too hard at the notion that the Four Elements, a theme literally millenia old, "come from" the symbolism of a faith invented out of whole cloth less than a century ago. And I say that as someone generally quite sympathetic to all of the various Earth-centered and reconstructionist faiths. Hell, my daughter is a Spiral Scout.

 

As for this bit of nonesense...

 

Of course, there's another bit of trope-twisting here. It is the woman who is powerful, ambitious, and capable, and seeks and glories in responsibility, whereas it is the man who would be satisfied with a simple life, the man who is disenfranchised, the man who must seek power in a hostile society. I beleive that adds its own layer of sympathy/resentment. But that's another tale, and not something I really want to go into here.

 

 

...I'll refer the author to the many, many threads where this has been discussed to death, and refuted. Yes, refuted.

 

So, if people are going to dream up imaginary sexism rather than address real issues with the way this character is drawn, I might as well give them something real to chew on. So I'll say this, in the way of Egwene appreciation: Based on her description in the books, she may be a prime candidate for a fascinating reboot.

 

Like Starfire.

[tonofthorns]

I DO'NT HATE Egwene either. I like what she does some of the time. She needs to ally herself and the AS with Rand and not try to bully him to do what SHE thinks is best. Good leaders lead by example and I think she is on her way to doing that.