Mat and Tylin

[RAND AL THOR]

I believe that Mat's primary concern was that 'he' was supposed to do the 'chasing.' I'm not justifying Tylin here- I'm just pointing out another aspect of this scenario.

 

And I still do find the scenes amusing- primarily due to Mat's reactions and attempts to avoid her. Perhaps the reason why they seem funny lies in Mat's general character of chasing women, and getting the somewhat opposite done to him, which he eventually accepts.

 

I have a metal picture of how someone would react after rape, and Mat is not like that. He made a promise to Rand, Elayne etc etc... but do you honestly think that Mat could not have avoided Tylin if he truly wanted to?

 

And also, I doubt Tylin held the dagger in her hand during the entire....procedure...which means that Mat must have had ample opportunity to escape.

[RAND AL THOR]

Oh, and I just found this:

 

 

It was not that he disliked being bedded by Tylin, aside from the fact she was a queen, as snooty as any other noblewoman. And the fact that she made him feel like a mouse that had been made a pet by a cat. But there were only so many hours of daylight, if more than he was used to back home in winter, and for a bit he had to wonder whether she meant to consume all of them.

 

[DemandredFO]

The only way I see Mat getting away from Tylin is to do her violence and there is the suicidal chivarly to negate that and also mat had been scarred by killing Melindra and Renna.  The only way Mat could have escaped the city was to kill alot of Tylin soldiers and in that society and with that upbringing Mat probably didn't see that as a viable option.  Rand Al Thor, that quote you cited, that reaction is, I think, part Stockholm syndrome, part Mat's personality and part the social upbringing.  A counterpoint, I don't have the books but at one point it says Mat tried to avoid servants because they started bringing messages and sometimes he went hungry because Tylin starved him.  These are not the reactions of a willing participant and I go back to my earlier statement.

 

[Serenla]

I think it was funny and would give it an 8.  It wasn't rape.  Mat never says no, on her first attempt, when she sits in his lap, he gives her some lame excuses as to why he can't but never says he doesn't want to.  When she finally accomplishes her "task", he tells her he doesn't have time, asks her what she's doing, and tells her she can't; he nevers says no or that he doesn't want to.  On her first try, he thinks about stopping her but gets distracted by her kissing him and doesn't even notice that she undid his pants.  After she suceeds, he pouts.  If anyone was raped, I don't think that they would smoke, pout and then continue with their plans.  Mat was opposed to the idea of having a relationship with a noble and being chased by a woman, not the actual act.  And this is Mat we are talking about, he planned how many grand escapes?  He has fought how many people?  He would have and could have rationalized stopping her and leaving the palace if he wanted to.  He probably could have stopped her by telling her that he didn't want to, but he never said that.

[Razor]

The reason it is funny is because it is so ironic.  It has the MAtt gets what he deserves slant to it that is appealing to some degree, and his reaction is typical Matt.

[mb]

The reason it is funny is because it is so ironic.  It has the MAtt gets what he deserves slant to it that is appealing to some degree, and his reaction is typical Matt.

 

How does Mat deserve the treatment?  Up to that time all Mat's involvement with females has been just talking and/or dancing; he has not really pursued any of them.  And he has not done any harm to Tylin before then.

The only female Mat really pursues in the series is Daughter of the Nine Moons; and that comes after the time, and she is whom the Aelfinn predicted that Mat would marry.

 

[safwd]

I agree with Dreadlady. Those scenes were troubling at best. Mat was forced--both physically and emotionally--into a sexual relationship. And then was laughed at by Elayne when she finally came to understand the reality of what was occuring.

 

Had that occured in reverse people would be crying out in rage at the abuse--both in the books and as readers--even were it followed out exactly with the 'female Mat' coming to feel some degree of warmth for the 'male Tylin'.

 

Now, from a literary sense i can understand RJ having it play out, but it was not in anyway an amusing scene.

You guys make good points, and it may not matter, but i really think Mat didnt mind his relationship with Tylin too much. I think what really bothered him is he was now in the role of being chased and not the chaser. I think it was more of an image hit to him, he didnt seem to mind the time they spent together in the bedroom.

[GrandpaG]

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

 

Had the same thing happened anywhere other than Ebou Dar, it would have been condemned.  Same with the duels.  Beslan saw nothing wrong with Matt being his mom's toy.  The servants thought it was funny when he tried to hide.  Having a "toy" was not seen as a bad thing there, but rather some twisted form of compliment I guess.

 

"Different strokes for different folks."

 

When you travel outside your own circle of comfort, you might encounter some things that seem strange.  Like eating bugs.  Some people might find it unsettling that I eat ground up parts of animals (hot dogs).  It's hard to accept things that are not what you are used to.  I get the impression that RJ had seen a lot of strange things during his life and sometimes shared with us?

 

"Whatever turns you on."

 

Although I found those scenes somewhat stimulating (being a former "pig" of a male and newly proclaimed "dirty old man") I also found them upsetting.  Not as upsetting as an actual male-to-female rape, but similar.  Matt was being forced.  He was a "pig", no doubt.  Up to that point, how many flings had we witnessed him enjoying?  But, none of them were forced.  Even though it was a game having him be her "toy", I don't think Matt liked playing but was not given the option not to play.  Part of her attraction to Matt could have been the pull of ta'veren, maybe?  He did feel true affection for her toward the end.

 

"A stitch in time saves nine."

 

Totally unrelated to this topic.  Didn't want you to think that Gwampy was going totally serious or something.  ;D

[solarz]

I am reminded of Romeo and Juliet.

 

In Shakespeare's work, Juliet is mentioned to be "not quite 14", in other words, she's 13.

 

Romeo's age is never mentioned, but most believe he's somewhere around 18-20.

 

If Shakespeare wrote Romeo and Juliet today, he'd be widely condemned for promoting pedophilia.

 

In the middle ages, women/girls were considered marriable as soon as they get their first period. Unwed women in their twenties were considered "old maids".

 

Only a few decades ago, a man being raped by a woman was considered a joke. It still is in many parts of the world. I still remember an episode of "Ally McBeal" where Calista Flockhart defended a female teacher having a sexual affair with one of her students.

 

My point is, don't judge literary works by your own morality. Moral values, especially those related to sexuality, changes all the time. What we consider to be perfectly normal today could be considered abominable in 20 or 30 years. Greek gods seem to be complete assholes judging from their myths, and one could be forgiven for wondering why the ancient greeks would worship such jerks, until you learn that to the ancient greeks, the cardinal sin was Arrogance. Zeus was not just messing with mortals for fun, he was punishing Arrogance.

 

The purpose of reading should not be to affirm one's existing beliefs. Its purpose is to expand our horizons, challenge the limits of our comfort zone, and show us different perspectives.

[mb]

moral values change all the time?  at least Christianity seems to be an exception.  Christianity's morality seems to be unchanged since its founding.

 

Romeo & Juliet; not sure if 4 to 7 years difference would be pedophilia.  if he is 18-20 years and if she is 13-14 years.

too young or too old for the other would probably be if the age difference was 13 or more years.

though their age difference might have been closer than 4 to 7 years.

[solarz]

moral values change all the time?  at least Christianity seems to be an exception.  Christianity's morality seems to be unchanged since its founding.

 

Romeo & Juliet; not sure if 4 to 7 years difference would be pedophilia.  if he is 18-20 years and if she is 13-14 years.

too young or too old for the other would probably be if the age difference was 13 or more years.

though their age difference might have been closer than 4 to 7 years.

 

It's statutory rape under 21st century North American laws.

 

Christian morality unchanged since its founding?

 

During the middle ages, killing heathens and burning witches were considered doing the Lord's work. These days, it's considered foul murder.

[mb]

middle ages; most of that stuff seemed to be under Catholicism.

 

Christianity's morals concerning at least sexuality seem unchanged since its founding.

[solarz]

middle ages; most of that stuff seemed to be under Catholicism.

 

Christianity's morals concerning at least sexuality seem unchanged since its founding.

 

Catholicism is the largest denomination of Christianity.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

 

In fact, it was the only branch of Christianity until the East-West schism that created the Eastern Orthodox Church in 1054.

 

Protestantism came from the Reformation in the 16th century, which is after the Middle Ages.

 

As for Christianity's morality regarding sexuality, less than 100 years ago, it was widely accepted that rape could not occur between a husband and a wife, and that it was a wife's duty to sexually satisfy her husband whenever he desired.

[solarz]

As I am currently re-reading through this part of the series, I made some additional observations:

 

Mat's internal monologue describes himself as nervous and jittery after his encounters with Tylin. However, remember that Rand once observed that Mat was a great complainer of little things. He would complain endlessly about a stubbed toe, but grin and treat a serious wound as if it was nothing.

 

Mat kept thinking to himself that Tylin had him jumping and blushing like a girl. His biggest concern seemed to be others would find out and laugh at him.

 

There's really nothing that prevents him from moving back to the Wandering Woman if he really wished it. It's telling that the thought never even occurs to him.

 

This makes me believe that he enjoys being with Tylin, but doesn't want others to know as he feels it would ruin his image.

Edited November 9, 2017 by SolarZ