A few WoT youtubers have been encouraging rewatches of entire season to bolster case for season 4.  It appears completion rates are very important to Amazon.  uh oh RoP.

I think the subtle interplay between Elayne and Nyneave was excellent.  I hate some of the adaptation choices but some of the actors are really elevating the show.  I wanted Stepin to be Elyas character, Kareane to stay around, Bassan to stay around, and I hate that I may have to see a broken Rhyma.  And instead of watching sad Lan go on a couples retreat I really would have liked a complicated Elaida, Alanna, Barthanes,, Lady Anvaere and Forsaken plotine.  

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean I know people who grew up in farming communities, they were at it from the age of 14, as one friend of mine said, you see all that sex happening on the farm all the time and as teenagers you meet up at get togethers and all partner up and just have lots of fun. So from the experience I have 2nd hand knowledge of it all Emonds Field always felt far to sacharine sweet. 

I think Emonds Field was changed because current US politics defines rural small town as regressive and urban cosmopolitan as progressive.  Another reason is that in US many lgbtq people leave small towns to urban enclaves to a found family situation that is more supportive.  Problem with this in WoT is that Two Rivers is not just another small town like many show supporters want it to be.  It is also not the Shire.  Two Rivers is like the Waste for Aiel.  It creates a particular culture and set of circumstances that our main characters use as source of strength and develop past.  RJ og shows lots of shit little towns with seedy characters.  

Two Rivers was born from a major defeat of the dark one's forces.  Manatheran sacrificed itself to save the world. It left just a fragment of its people and none of its wealth and culture.  But it left this stubborness and pride baked into its children.  The old blood sings.  This sort of nationalism and pride of culture may not be popular to progressives and can be horribly manipulated for all kinds of evil.  It is a thing though and has giving many people resolve and comfort in the face of horror.

14 hours ago, Rhaze said:

It is all about context. Millions of people never miss a WWE event. They absolutely love it. Millions more line up to watch the new Fast and Furious. Look at all the money the Transformers movies made...

 

 most people who watch something want to sit back, turn off their brains, and enjoy the explosions.

 

 That is how you have to watch WoT. Turn off your brain, dont think too deeply, and enjoy the explosions.

So the riviting battle between Lan urinating and Barthanes wig. 

.

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

I am not as familiar with crossbow bolts or first aid in general.  Wouldn't breaking off the end make it difficult to push through?  As you may have a splintered end?  Wouldn't the splinters be bad for the wound? Is the bolt long enough to be able to break off the fletchings and be able to pull from the other side?

Those fletchings and extra shaft are going to do more damage and potentially introduce more infection.  There is more here to hash out. Type of head, location of wound and what anatomy is beyond bolt. If it is wooden bolt and in muscle with clear path out, push shaft til head pops out, break or cut fletching end of shaft as short as posiible , then pull bolt through.  Now reason why show may have done what they did.  Crossbow bolts are shortrr and thicker than arrow shafts.  If nyn didnt have saw available and couldn't cleanly break bolt without causing more damage then shove it through like show did.  In show healing seems to be almost universal among channelers so quick and dirty becomes valid option if there may be channeler to clean up after.

2 adult daughters and 1 son in law I encouraged tovwatch season 1 before premiere.  All fantasy readers but not WoT. All fantasy TV watchers.  None finished season 1.  Gave season 2 shot after I said it got better. Again all lost interest but may finish season 2 at some point.  Wife didnt finish season 1.  Went back watched season 1 after I said season 2 was better.  She likes 2 but we now go out for dinner and drinks before show and drink during show.  She is team Forsaken and Egwene.  She dislikes Lan, Moraine, Aes Sedai, and warders. Finds male EF underwhelming. 3 teenage sons watched part of season 1 then stopped.  Part of sesson 2 then stopped.  

My gay uncle and his adult kids watch but about where I am. They find show decent but not great.  Coworker's husband and his friends grew up reading WoT together.  They are hate watching show and book cloaking online. She likes some of female characters but wouldn't keep watching if husband wasn't.  Another coworker started watching with non binary 20 year old kid after they read some positive reviews online. They thought season 1 was ok but havent finished season 2 yet. My female friend from army that started reading books with me in 1991 likes Egwene and Nyn, doesn't like Mat and Perrin( her book favorites) and not big fan of adaptation choices.  I have not encountered any chatter in the wild from friends at work or family about show other than ones mentioned.  I did and do hear about GoT, HoD, and some Witcher talk.

So maybe I would enjoy more if people around me loved show and wanted to talk about.  For me just too many dead end story threads and missed potential wow emotional moments because I dont care about characters the same as in books.  Not being invested makes many of dumb things TV shows  always do stick out and irritate me. Also if we do get 8 seasons I may need a liver transplant.

On 10/9/2023 at 10:40 AM, Mirefox said:

At least in Rings of Power they had a tiny little farming terrace inside Moria to feed the entire dwarf civilization…….

RoP really upended the trope though.  They gave us a farming village with grain, livestock, orchards then had the farmers run off to barren fortress leaving all the food and livestock behind.  Because hand to mouth sustenance farmers wouldnt think to pack up supplies.  Guess they werent expecting Southlands Walmart to be closed for orc invasion. 

52 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Personally as much as it surprised me on the first read through, by the time of my 5th, 6th or 8th I really wonder why it was included in that book, it is never paid off anywhere else except by BS in the really really really bad Verin reveal. 

 

In the books there is no real indicator he is a dark friend until the moment he tells Rand, to then just turn around and die. In the show it would have come across not as an emotional moment, but as a bit of a cheap reveal for non book fans. Also it makes no logical sense, in the books Ishy was not at Falme and did not tell Fain to take the horn there, he didn't want the horn in the hands of the Seanchan. The idea has always been that Ingtar was compelled to get the horn, but then Fain got it and went and did what he did. 

 

In the Show that thread makes no sense, why go all the way to Falme what was the end goal, why steal the horn back from Ishy? I think the reality is that at the start of the writing process Rafe was going to play out ingtars arc, but posisbly when it cam eot actually following through the reveal just made no logical sense at all and so they decided to leave him the hero. Rafe did also say that some characters who where Dark friends would not be in the show, so I think that was Ingtar. Also no portal stone, no real motivator for such a drastic shift in allegiance. If you make turning to the light as easy as just walking along with Perrin then you suddenly devalue that choice darkfriends have made. 

 

 

I was wrong about Rafe and Moraine for season 3.  I read a few articles and merged them in my mind.  As far as Ingtar and particularly Verin.  Those a pretty beloved scenes by majority of commenters who reread the series.  What about the series did you enjoy that made multiple rereads appealing?  Also what is your background as much as you wish to reveal.  The world is a big place.  I have figured out that often cultural, educational, generational differences lead to people just talking past each other.  Something I feel like Jordan explored in the series heavily. I know I apparently in quite unusual in my life experience and perspectives even though it all feels normal to me.

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Quite a meltdown of the show-cloaks on the WOTShow subreddit for this.

 

By the way, I guess it is fair criticism.

 

S2 is better than S1 but still (imho) not at a satisfactorily level.

I am in such a weird place on this show.  As watch and move on TV it is very good.  As adaptation trying to be prestige GoT level TV it feels like hot garbage.

16 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Moiraine is no longer the centre of the TV show, she wasn't through season 2, hers was an ancillary story and not part of the main except for 2 episodes where she was alongside Rand. Season 3 will probably bring her a bit more into the story, but in the books RJ gave her a bit more prominence as is usual for a character who is about to go away for a long while. 

 

So why did Rafe discuss adding additional season 3 material for Pike because she is the star.  Unless you have insider info, this is just a guess.

11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

people keep throwing around that "unrealistic" word when they don't like something.

if we use our own past as a comparison, that's perfectly realistic. perhaps he was the apprentice, then the blacksmith died of a sudden disease leaving him as the sole blacksmith. happened all the time.

what's unrealistic is girls in their late teens being unmarried. egwene not having a half dozen brothers and sisters.

except wot is not our past, so we can't use that as a comparison anyway.

i disagree. the thing is, that plot never went anywhere. we never see any other darkfriend seeking redemption in the books. no, that one does not count, she was never a dedicated darkfriend who had a change of heart, she always wanted to undermine them.

sure, jesus rand was a nice moment, but ultimately that subplot could be excised from the books without any issue.

 

it's best discussed as sanderson's first law: the ability of an author to solve conflicts with magic is directly proportional to how much the public understands said magic.

in a soft magic system, i.e. one where there are no rules, you can always use magic to complicate life for the characters, becase that creates tension. but if you use it to solve problems, it just comes out of nowhere. it's a deus ex machina. the public loses tension, because they know the problem will be handwaved with someone flicking their fingers and saying "hey, it's magic!".

in the lord of the rings magic has no defined rules, and the protagonists are all regular people - frodo, aragorn - that have to find mundane ways to solve magical problems.

in a hard magic system, magic has hard rules. the public understands them, and the author can use them to solve problems in clever ways, just like the gadgets in a james bond movie. magic is just another tool, that can be used entertainingly.

in the mistborn saga, allomancers can put up complex magical fighting that are entertaining because their moves follow their basic principles.

of course, if you have a hard magic system, you can't just make up stuff as the plot demands.

 

I also disagree that it's easier to use soft magic as a plot device. sure, it's easier to use it to create problems. i suppose one could say it's also easy to use it to solve the plot, but it's extremely unsatisfying. one major criticism of the sword of truth saga is that the plot would pile bigger and bigger problems upon the protagonist, only for him to just suddenly magic it all away in the last ten pages. and then forgetting how he did it. why would a reader get invested in the plot, if it's just going to be magicked away with no discernible logic?

 

unfortunately, hollywood does not seem to value internal consistency too much.

In WoT show Perrin is not blacksmith he is an apprentice or assistant.  Layla is blacksmith. Age is irrelevent.  A teenager could be a working blacksmith with proper background.

I think Ingtar was important to Rand's character growth.  He saw how easy good intentions could lead to wrong behavior.  That the world was going to be more complex and difficult in resisting the temptation of the dark one. It was also just a great scene foreshadowing the latter big reveal.  He was not absolutely needed however.  I think show really wasted time even showing Ingtar considering his end.  

3 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

First off, the characters didn't start to really develop their individual arcs till late book 3 and mainly book 4.

The show is still in a position to do that so that shouldn't be a valid complaint at this point.

That said, there were steps and/or hooks to set up those arcs laid throughout the first 3 books that the show hasn't done a very good job of for all of the characters Even having to kind of brute force some of them in (Perrin for example). This is for sure a valid complaint.

 

What shouldn't be a complaint is the underlying plot that they have stayed true to the books with.

Book 1 at it's heart was Ishamael manipulating events to get Rand to the Eye. Season 1 was exactly the same but the difference is the show, while it hid this as well, was actually more obvious about it than in the Book.

We were only able to piece it together through reveals in later books from rare Forsaken PoV's and discovery that Ishy used Farstrider to deliver the message about the Eye at that Stedding to point Moiraine and co at the Eye.

The same was done in the show only this time Ishy delivered the same message through Siuan's dream instead.

 

Books 2 and 3 was Ishy screwing with Rand through his friends trying to put cracks in Rand hoping to break him. Now granted the show ramped this up but they were also firing 2 books worth of cracks at Rand and Ishamael was a hell of a lot less insane by this point than he was in the books at the end of book 3.

They also had Lanfear drop a big ole wrench in the works by moving the timeline up of Ishy's plans up so Ishy doesn't turn or break him and Lanfear gets Rand to herself.

Should be obvious at this point that Ishamael's motives are to break or turn Rand. This was the case right up until the end of book 12.

Most think Lanfear's motives are because she loves Rand and sure that is part of it but mostly she is in love with the idea that Rand is her only chance of possibly defeating the Dark One himself and finally getting her hands on all that power she uncorked in the first place. This was always her true motive in the books, she loved power over anything or anyone else period.

 

The show needs to do better on the individual character arcs without losing the why of the underlying forces acting against them.

 

Season 1 was a mess, it's hard to say it wasn't. I didn't think it was horrible but it wasn't good imo either. I liked season 1 but it was a very luke warm like.

Season 2 was much better pretty much across the board, I definitely liked and enjoyed it a lot more than S1. It was good and at times excellent imo.

Do they need to do better though? Absolutely.

 

Season 3 will straight up make or break this show period. I know it and I think most people know it. Let's hope they nail it.

I agree with most of this.  It is hard for me to forget characters later development and place them at a point in time in books.  I dont think we are going to see any change from Amazon and showrunners approach.  Time constraint and centering Moraine has created a situation where telling a great version of this story will get harder and harder. It will be fine to good single watch TV.  A segment of audience that really loves certain aspects of way show is made will love it.  But it isnt going to rise to great TV.  Besides some great character work and acting the story flaws get worse the more you watch it. The highs show how good it could have been but Amazon and writers cant get out of their own way. 

How is Emonds Field going to be handled?  We know they rebuilt set for EF in mine pit.  Will we get 3 villages in Two Rivers plus mostly destroyed Taren Ferry?  Where is battle going to take place if at all.  The village from season 1 is almost undefendable without some Rings of Power level cringe.  If only one Two Rivers village who saves them? What chatacters will be present in show? Perrin has good reason not to want to go home while Mat has lots of reason.  Will Avhienda take Gauls place or go to waste with Rand? Tinkers? Slayer? Will Faile play any role if Perrin goes back? If Mat goes back does he have a giant orgy with drunken Coplins and Congars to celebrate his light saber spear🙂

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

It had a ~$150m budget.

Grossed ~$93m in the domestic market

And ~$208m worldwide. 

So it flopped domestically but not world wide. It may have had a ~$59m profit, which is "okay" depending on who you talk to. 

 

Something to remember.

It was up against.

John Wick 4.

Creed 3

Shazam! Fury of the Gods

 

Plus a couple of "Religious" movies that like to book out theaters to bloat their numbers. 

 

D&D briefly knocked John Wick out of the #1 spot for a day in box office numbers, but as we know John Wick came out ahead in the long run. 

 

Oh, and it released right in the middle of the OGL scandal when half the D&D fans online were boycotting everything D&D. 

If marketing is not included in that budget it was not really a financial success.  I agree with your assessment it caught a perfect storm of environment to fail.  Too bad.  Fun movie.  I like fun popcorn entertainment.  Unless it is WoT.  Then it feels like my kids are being pepper sprayed.

Any thoughts if Mats spear is around for rest of show or he gets ashandarei from Finn?  When he went to hug Perrin I about lost my mind.  Muzzle discipline, muzzle discipline.  Friendly fire is not friendly.

Not a fan of conch shell of valere. Since magic can now expand matter I would much prefer a small carnyx that grew as he blew.  Yea I said that.

Perrins shield he got from Uno Cain.  Does he end up keeping it? I assumed it disappeared when heroes vanished but it appears to be on top of rubble pile in last overhead shot of EF5+Andorinita.  In this turning no Mjolner maybe power shield?

Also Moraine's fire wyrm wrecked most of those ships.  It was almost sentient.  After knocking ships it then joined her other weaves to create the dragon.  Not sure if anything in books did that.  possibly some of Rands weaves.

On 10/10/2023 at 10:05 AM, Scarloc99 said:

I mean matts story is now really interesting, he becomes most peoples fav character but that is really only from book 5 onwards, until then he is either Golumn and just mopes around getting more and more ill, or a bit of a brat, it never really made sense to me in the books why he was the one to take the dagger, to be enticed away as he was not that different to the other 2 boys, a bit of a scamp but not the kind to suddenly loot from a graveyard, TV Matt I can totally see making that choice and so that change for me made the most sense, I am not 100% on what they did with his mum an dad, I am happy to WAFO where that goes when Perrin returns to the 2 rivers. 

TV Mat  is not more interesting to many of us.  Him spouting old tongue in a fight to Shadar Logoth was interesting and would have set table for TV hero of horn.  Him having dagger removed by group of Aes Sedai was interesting( still possible  but unlikely). I liked his being kind of immature brat who does the right thing better than damaged kid from disfunctional family.  Also is Mat going back to Emonds Field now? Leaving his sisters there is a bad look if he is a good guy now. 

The showrunners and writers made decisions to elevate female storylines. Amazon bought it.  This means 4 characters that occupy 60% of book story are developed poorly.  As in they should be likable or interesting and are underachieving as characters.  The show is fun to watch but mainly because of actors and story beats OG RJ created.  This show could have easily been a 9/10.  Instead its a muddled 6.5/10 that is best enjoyed with alcohol. If the show continues past season 3 the showrunners better fire a few wig consultants and hire some military historians cause lots of war headed our way.  The Seanchan guarding the beach (allowing Lan a moment) but not guarding gates or land approach aint going to cut it.

23 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Actually, as far as I can tell, the heron is only on the hilt for one scene. It’s as if someone asked “how does Turak know there is a heron on Rand’s sword? That line doesn’t work.” So the solution was to glue one on the hilt or vfx?

On scene rewatch I think brand actually came from heron on proximal blade.  Rand grabs blade as he is pushing it into Ishamael,'s chest.  I wonder if visble heron on hilt may only be on one side.  So its been hidden from audience because we are seeing unbranded side.  More likely just a prop oops though.

8 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Because in the grand scheme of things books 1-3 are repetitive, in terms of TV will be boring, and the "iconic moments" don't really tell the key story of seasons 1 and 2, how do the EF5 get to the emotional point of the end of book 3. How does Rand go from farmboy to library scouring ruler to be, How do Egwene and Nynaeve go from wisdom and apprentice to Black Ajah hunters, How does Matt change from Gollum wannabe into the Master of Battles, How does Perrin become angry wolf talking emo boy. 

Yes it would have been great to see some of those moments, but, given that there where only about 16 hours of TV, and there is so much information that needs to be included for the TV viewer to understand, and so many side characters we need to give an arc to to make the TV viewer care about them. It was always obvious that those moments where not coming back. Books 1-3 are the prologue anyway, they are not the story that RJ ended up wanting to write, the tone, the themes, the very essence of some of the characters are changed and retconned, he tries things and then decides to never revisit them (portal stones) because he doesn't like how they fit in his world. Book 4 is where WOT proper begins in terms of the actual story that RJ wanted to write, and given we are getting all of book 4 in season 3 I am absolutely ok with moments being cut early on. Books 1-3 are really, in essence, the story of the hobbits getting to Rivendell and forming the fellowship, and just as Peter Jackson cut out vast swathes of that part of the story to get to the actual story of the lord of the rings, so the writers realised that all the early stuff, as cool as some of it is, needed to be cut out because it would either be to expensive to shoot, or require effort and time better spent on actually telling the linear story of how the EF5 get to the last battle, which is the ONLY story that matters here. 

I agree with you on lots of your assessment.  However, there was many places where show team made poor choices that led to lots of less entertaing TV that so far hasnt paid off in advancing story.  You can argue books made mistakes.  Show made more.

As far as Seanchan soldiers, Lan snuck in to Moraine right before they appear that there are soldiers guarding on the cliff.  Makes sense from military perspective having patrols.  I assume seeing single Lady Single warrior tipped hat this was probably Aes Sedai since several had been captured at this point.  The bigger dumb thing was Seanchan not sending patrol out to investigate smoke, closing gate, and having damane ready on outer walls.  Remember Whitecloaks had been retaking and harassing outer Seanchan holdings so should have been prepared.

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

A lot of times the writing in this show resembled the old “telephone” game as each time some lore or plot was passed on to the next writing committee something was lost.  What they need is a continuity expert.

Yep a get back coach like college football. Its why I said they needed a whole crew.  Sounds like Rafe and Sarah might be overwhelmed.

2 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Ingtar ended up meaning absolutely nothing to this story, so your theory has a chance.

True, Liandrin and Lanfear may both enjoy a redemption arc then settle together in a fishing village happily ever after just to spite Mo and Siuan. I win again Amarasue.

What I am seeing is that the writers and showrunners need a group of beta testers for the show at each stage instead of just one expert that can mull over their story boarding and suggest more coherent ideas to advance the plot that doesnt break later story.  I wonder where they could find this group of people? Such a giant mystery box?😆

57 minutes ago, Samt said:

Completely agree.  The show is better the less you think about it.  

Agaim I reiterate watching Lanfear, Egwene, and now Moghedian chew up scenes is amazing entertainment if you distract your brain slightly with cold beer and RJ approves levels of cleavage. Super high def TV also helps. Somehow this group of writers managed to make a show best viewed at a Hooters.