4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I can try to find the tweets but a vet skilled in military tactics explained that the tactics weren't bad at all...I can find it later, but suspect you won't care.  

 

In any event, that wall is not a curtain/ barrier wall...it's an archery platform to provide cover for the heavy cavalry. Sheinarans attack by driving their cavalry out to take out the fades who are beyond bowshot, with archery cover to close.  The largest attack they've had in generations was a 1/5 of this attack...they hadn't experienced this kind of scale in memory, so weren't set up for it.  It takes time to make more fortifications that they didn't have.

 

It's not like this happens all the time.

I believe one of the people commenting in this thread is a vet skilled in military tactics.  He is the one criticizing it as portrayed in the show.  

You're arguing with the wrong person.

43 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Lots of those 1star ratings were from people who didn't watch too.  And the site was actively spammed.  Ratings for this show aren't nearly as good a measure as for shows before this year because this is the year of accusations of wokeness.  It's a theme.

Actually, most of the reviews that I saw that gave low ratings mentioned specific things from the show.  Indicating that they had actually watched.

I'm sure there are some complaining about "wokeness" that didn't actually watch.  But based on the timing at the beginning, there were far more of those early high ratings that couldn't have watched.

Also - if you look at many of the commenters here that object to those same things, they have all actually watched.

One thing that I do see however is people defending the changes to the show by dismissing legitimate criticism as nothing but "anti-woke" bigotry.

It's a theme.

1 hour ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

I honestly think this was Amazon's attempt to create positive buzz for the show.  This is my opinion, but they probably test marketed the whole 8 episodes and got terrible feedback from audiences.  This is why the released the first 3 episodes at once.  To try and drive up the positive ratings and good will of the show.  It would then fuel an artificial wave they could ride to not lose money.  

 

If you look at the ratings sites this seems to hold true.  On Amazon, IMDB, and RT they have steadily been declining in ratings as people view the show.  The only reason they are above 7 in some areas (besides the TON of fake 5 and 10 star reviews) is they were flooded with people who watched the first couple of episodes and came away thinking the show was ok.  If you look at recent reviews the vast majority of them are negative and have meaningful feedback.  The positive reviews are 1 liners are are a dwindling percentage. 

 

Throw in an early announcement to renewing the show and it makes the positive buzz last longer. 

I looked up the reviews on Amazon a few days ago.  The earliest reviews included a ridiculous number of five-star ratings, many at a time the reviewers couldn't possibly have actually watched anything.  The vast majority of the reviews since the season ended are one- or two-star ratings.  Many lamented the fact that Amazon doesn't allow zero-star ratings.

If you exclude those early reviews from people who didn't actually watch, their average would be about a 1.75.

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

The show ain’t the books.

If that isn't the understatement of the decade ...

But let's be clear - in the books, we know of one (and only one) example of "herbs that cut off access."  And the details of that one example make it extremely unlikely that Valda would know about it.

In the show, we know of none.

Is it possible that in the show we will eventually discover that there are multiple examples, and Valda knows about all of them?  Sure.  Do we know it now?  No.

So to say that those examples actually exist before we have reason to know it kind of misses the point.

22 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

There are some herbs that cut off access….

The only one known in the books is forkroot.  And it doesn't appear until several books in.  But it was one of the "other methods" mentioned.

That effect appears to have been discovered completely by accident by one of the Yellow's agents.  A person less likely than most to share the info with Whitecloaks.

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

I assume you meant "Where are they in the show", otherwise I apologize and don't exactly know what you are asking for.

 

What we see in the show is that a Whitecloak has captured an Aes Sedai and managed to cut off her hands without getting lit on fire.  This particular Whitecloak has apparently done this 7? 9? times in total. 

 

Without the show giving a direct answer to how this is done I am extrapolating a mundane method this was accomplished using a reference from the books.  There are other methods that Aes Sedai/Channelers are captured in the books but they require less mundane methods.  Lured into a Stedding, Valda is a male channeler who can shield, Valda possesses a OP nullifying ter'angreal, Has access to forkroot tea etc...  These ways of capturing channelers seem less likely for the character as presented but we can't rule them out entirely.

 

So I default to the most mundane way a non channeler can be captured without suffering large losses.  Not exactly a leap in logic.

 

Perhaps the show will further explain exactly how Valda does what he does.

And unless one or more of those other methods are what is actually happening, it still doesn't explain a larger point:

The capture and cutting off the hands could certainly have been done when she was knocked out from a rock or other impact to the head.

But she's conscious and (apparently) unshielded when tied to the stake.  How does she allow herself to be burned to death?  In Rafeland is Valda correct that a channeler needs their hands to use the Power?

On 1/19/2022 at 12:10 PM, Lethira the second said:

Get on board folks, show Moiraine is omnipresent!

I think I figured it out.

Given the fact that after Shadar Logoth when Moiraine needed Healing, Lan located Liandrin's goup "three hours to the southwest," it's now clear.  In the entire two years she was out of the Tower searching, Moiraine was never more than a day's ride from anything that happened anywhere.

Of course she should have known all those things and gotten word to the Tower.

?

34 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Gonna have to call you on this since we are talking about changes.  Valda doesn't appear in the book  in this  sequence.  Child Byar was the guy who dropped the rock.  Geofram Bornhald was commanding the White Cloaks who captured Egwene and Perrin.  Child Bornhald was a much more sympathetic character than Valda who shows up later on in the books.   None the less your story is not the story but it is a story.  

34 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Already noted by Andra here

One additional thing I wanted to add to that previous post:

Geofram Bornhald was known to use the term "Questioners."  But no Questioner would have ever used the name themselves.  They consider it an insult, and have made even superiors among the Children apologize for using it.

They referred to themselves exclusively as the "Hand of the Light."  As in "the hand that digs out truth."

32 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Oh another spot to repeat myself.  It wasn't just the commander, it was the entire defensive setup.  The clearly had a structure across the Gap.  They had none of the usual things to defend a shield wall.   That wall should have been able to hold against anything the trollocs had unless Aludra goes to the dark side and provides them fireworks.  Miners might work but that is why you have cavalry in reserve.  It is pretty clear that our writing crew isn't much interested in portraying anything like a realistic battle except by accident. It takes knowledge and expertise, which the source material had.  Of course we can't tap the true source we have to do everything ourselves by hand.  Sigh it is all so difficult.  One works all day to make it beautiful and people come in and complain that the plumbing doesn't work. 

Which indicates to me that it isn't just a slight against Agelmar personally, it's a slight against the military competence of the entire culture.

At this point, we only know about the competence of Shienarans.  But I suspect he's going to make every nation on the continent just as incompetent.  Which means that the way the battle went against Logain's forces wasn't just a factor of Covid restrictions, it was specifically by design.

Either that, or the show has no qualified military advisors, or their advice is being ignored along with every other bit of criticism.

2 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Anyone would howl with his pathetic existence.

And if you watch the bonus materials for the show, that howl is one of the things Rafe is proudest about with that episode.

?

17 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Of course you don't see how his culture has anything with how he'd be portrayed, you're either ignoring it or it doesn't fit how you want to feel about the show. He would not last if he was as he was in the show, no one in his position would, no one there would. 

Was his portrayal realistic considering the realities of the Borderlands? No, absolutely not. Then, why was it changed? To make the show stupid and lame? No, no writer goes in thinking they're using a monkey wrench instead of a pen/quill/keyboard/thumbs on a phone's screen. It was a change that did disregard the simple realities of command in the Borderlands. 

And Agelmar wasn't just a minimally-competent commander in the Borderlands.  He was one of the four (or five) "Great Captains."

If the show is an example of how a great captain does things, the Light has no hope in any battle in any war against the Shadow.

His portrayal doesn't just do him a disservice, it does a disservice to all of humanity where military actions are concerned.

2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Its gonna turn out shes a DF and was actually going to kill Perrin when he killed her. 

Rafe has explicitly denied that.

So, unless he's lying ...

9 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Would love to see an adaptation of this 

Be careful what you wish for.

Rafe might take that on next.

Has anyone seen the map Rafe is using for his geography?  Because it clearly isn't the one that's part of literally every book in the series.

I thought I had misheard something my first time through, then on a re-watch this weekend I confirmed what I thought I'd gotten wrong.

Sorry for the wall-o-text below, but bear with me.

To wit:

In the book, Baerlon is about a week north of Taren Ferry, and that's roughly the same as the distance across the entirety of the Two Rivers.  Shadar Logoth is about another day's journey northeast of Baerlon, along the Arinelle river.  Ghealdan is south of the Two Rivers, with its capitol of Jehannah being at least that same total distance south of the border.  

So, roughly four weeks travel between Shadar Logoth and the spot where Logain was captured in the show.  If it could be traveled in a straight line, which it couldn't be.  Because either the entire Two Rivers would be in the way (with both rivers being uncrossable there) or skirting east of the Taren and having to deal with just the White river, but now with Garen's Wall as well.

Yet in the show, what seems to be the day after Lan and Moiraine escape Shadar Logoth and Nynaeve catches up to them, Lan is able to head off to a nearby clifftop and actually see the party of Reds and Greens traveling by, and he says they're "three hours to the southwest."

In the show, they don't go through Baerlon at all (though it supposedly still exists in Rafeworld somewhere) and Shadar Logoth is only about three days away from Taren Ferry - in some unspecified direction.  But that's still multiple days away from the Andor/Ghealdan border if the map is even partially consistent between the book and the show.

I know that Logain probably wasn't captured in the actual capitol of Ghealdan, but the battle where it happened would still have been somewhere in the country.  And I know that the Reds and Greens would have been traveling back toward Tar Valon for at least a few days by that point. 

But where in that route would they ever be a few hours southwest of Shadar Logoth?  Without needing to cross at least one major river to get there? 

And Whitebridge doesn't answer that last bit, because it's both in the wrong direction and crosses the wrong way.

Please note: "three hours southwest" would place the party with Logain CLOSER than were our protagonists met the Whitecloaks.

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Lets try this again: you're rationalizing using the book for points in the show...but where are they in the book?

I didn't read that comment that way.

I read it as the book showing that Liandrin is arrogant and ignorantly overconfident in the show.

But then, that was the intent in my post, so I could just be projecting agreement that doesn't actually exist.

?

7 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Tam gains one advantage, in addition to being a blademaster, in close quarters because he's not a large as the trolloc. I don't recall what the show has the trolloc wielding, but I suspect it's a weapon to swung, and it probably is like an ax which does not slice, where as Tam's sword can jab and slice. In close quarters, the skilled human with a sword looking to kill should be better than a much larger trolloc swinging for the fences. But, trollocs can be taken out with a well placed dagger wound, so who really is the blademaster in the show? Our wisdom is also  skilled assassin. 

In that scene, the trolloc is using what you could call a kind of axe.  The head extends almost two feet along the shaft toward the handle, but only sticks out a few inches.  It's definitely not a sword, as described in the book.

And incidentally, though a sword can jab, Tam never does so.  He makes a series of fairly shallow slashes, which have little to no effect.   Which is why Rand has to step in and actually stab the damn thing.  Same as Nynaeve.

On 1/21/2022 at 12:44 PM, bryce0110 said:

Kerene also had a similar ear piece but it was on her lower earlobe, whereas Moiraine's was more around the back.

On 1/21/2022 at 1:00 PM, Andra said:

Good catch!

I'll definitely have to make a note on my re-watch of who has one and who doesn't.

 

Who knows - pure speculation, but could it have something to do with their Warder bond?  Maybe Moiraine taking it off is how Moiraine masked the bond? 

So, I've been back through the first three episodes.

The odd fingerless gloves are in the very first scene of the Ep.1 prologue.  Don't know what they are, though Moiraine frequently holds a pose as if her hands hurt.  No idea what that means.

The gold plating on her ear(s) doesn't appear yet.  She's wearing earrings instead so far.  The first scene that shows us enough of her ears to tell is the bathtub scene with Lan.  And she clearly doesn't have the gold plating.

I'll keep looking - the scene above with Kerene should come up in Ep.4.

3 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, she implied that it would have been her job to bond Rand...

Actually, if I remember correctly, she thought that would be a really bad idea.

5 minutes ago, Pembie said:

I didn’t get any of that really from reading it But then again they need to be in it more that’s why I think there’s too many characters I forget about the smaller ones

 

thanks for your help 

My pleasure.

The mission to the Black Tower is ordered by Elaida in the prologue to Crown of Swords.  At the time, she believes that Rand is still Galina's prisoner (she either hasn't heard about Dumai's Wells yet, or it hasn't happened yet) and that most of the reported Ash'aman probably can't channel.  And those that can are probably weak, and definitely lack training.  So she only sends 50 sisters and a couple hundred of the Guard (since Reds don't have Warders).

By the time those Reds get to the Black Tower, Dumai's Wells has happened, and the Ash'aman have no fear left of Sisters.  When word gets back to Elaida, she abandons them at Alviarin's urging.

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Quite possibly!

And condoms.

Lots of condoms.

On 1/21/2022 at 4:53 AM, Ralph said:

Liandrin says in the cave that no army can defeat seven full sisters. 

Dumai's Wells called.  They have a message for Liandrin.

And if Valda can have the collection of rings he had, in RafeWorld it must not be that difficult for non-channelers to get the drop on Sisters.

18 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

Two years? Wasn’t it 20?

In the show, I believe she said she had been away from the Tower for two years.

The search had been going on for twenty, but she wasn't away the entire time.

On 1/17/2022 at 12:56 PM, Pembie said:

I thought it was quite good some of the plot threads seem to be finally happening Matts story especially I find Perrin quite pointless to story he never seems to have much too do I do think there are too many characters though the white cloaks are very pointless and I don’t fully understand all the stuff with the sea fork and their bargin to Rand and why they have gone to Far Maddening or Luc I remember he was slayer or something in a wolf dream I find parts very confusing and bit boring

Rand had his personal reasons for going to Far Madding, both for justice against turncoat Ash'aman and to further his research into his future actions.  We receive confirmation there about something previously just suspected - that Luc and Slayer are in some way the same person.

But I do agree that Far Madding seems generally irrelevant to the story, given that pretty much everything that was gained there could have been gained anywhere.

The point to Perrin's arc become clear in later books, and is actually quite significant.  And the Whitecloaks are a part of that arc.

And to be clear, Mat's arc and Perrin's arc never really come back together until the very end.

6 hours ago, Holyheretic said:

I feel like what's really messed up. Is that no one seems to think what alanna did was wrong and tell her she did wrong. Verin was like oh well. It's the gender hypocrisy on the re reads that really ruin books I always skip the girls parts on re reads now 

Actually, quite a few people did exactly that.  Some even using language that equated it to rape.

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, her outward criticism was primarily that it made her job harder.  But she didn't skimp on the other bit either.

Verin has reasons to react the way she does, but she doesn't dismiss it either.

5 hours ago, Pembie said:

Can someone explain to me what is the story with Logain Gabrielle and Toveine is exactly I can’t remember The sisters are there to kill men that can channel I think or spy on the black tower or something I don’t really understand Why are they with Logain is he good evil helping them with their mission 

Toveine Gazal and Gabrelle Brawley are Red sisters sent covertly to the Black Tower by Elaida to capture and gentle any male channelers they find.  And possibly to kill them, as is at least implied.

They fail before they can even start, and are both bonded (and Compelled) by Logain in the process.  They are with him because of that.

Their failure is primarily a failure of Tower intelligence - with both the numbers of Ash'aman and their strength in the Power being wildly underestimated.  But also a failure of Elaida to understand her own Foretelling.  As she has failed consistently throughout.

Logain is good.  Toveine and Gabrelle believe they are good (I don't think either of them turn out to be Black Ajah), though their mission is not.  He isn't helping them do anything, he's preventing it.  Though he is protecting them from others that might harm them for their failure.