34 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Gonna have to call you on this since we are talking about changes.  Valda doesn't appear in the book  in this  sequence.  Child Byar was the guy who dropped the rock.  Geofram Bornhald was commanding the White Cloaks who captured Egwene and Perrin.  Child Bornhald was a much more sympathetic character than Valda who shows up later on in the books.   None the less your story is not the story but it is a story.  

34 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Already noted by Andra here

One additional thing I wanted to add to that previous post:

Geofram Bornhald was known to use the term "Questioners."  But no Questioner would have ever used the name themselves.  They consider it an insult, and have made even superiors among the Children apologize for using it.

They referred to themselves exclusively as the "Hand of the Light."  As in "the hand that digs out truth."

32 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Oh another spot to repeat myself.  It wasn't just the commander, it was the entire defensive setup.  The clearly had a structure across the Gap.  They had none of the usual things to defend a shield wall.   That wall should have been able to hold against anything the trollocs had unless Aludra goes to the dark side and provides them fireworks.  Miners might work but that is why you have cavalry in reserve.  It is pretty clear that our writing crew isn't much interested in portraying anything like a realistic battle except by accident. It takes knowledge and expertise, which the source material had.  Of course we can't tap the true source we have to do everything ourselves by hand.  Sigh it is all so difficult.  One works all day to make it beautiful and people come in and complain that the plumbing doesn't work. 

Which indicates to me that it isn't just a slight against Agelmar personally, it's a slight against the military competence of the entire culture.

At this point, we only know about the competence of Shienarans.  But I suspect he's going to make every nation on the continent just as incompetent.  Which means that the way the battle went against Logain's forces wasn't just a factor of Covid restrictions, it was specifically by design.

Either that, or the show has no qualified military advisors, or their advice is being ignored along with every other bit of criticism.

2 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Anyone would howl with his pathetic existence.

And if you watch the bonus materials for the show, that howl is one of the things Rafe is proudest about with that episode.

?

17 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Of course you don't see how his culture has anything with how he'd be portrayed, you're either ignoring it or it doesn't fit how you want to feel about the show. He would not last if he was as he was in the show, no one in his position would, no one there would. 

Was his portrayal realistic considering the realities of the Borderlands? No, absolutely not. Then, why was it changed? To make the show stupid and lame? No, no writer goes in thinking they're using a monkey wrench instead of a pen/quill/keyboard/thumbs on a phone's screen. It was a change that did disregard the simple realities of command in the Borderlands. 

And Agelmar wasn't just a minimally-competent commander in the Borderlands.  He was one of the four (or five) "Great Captains."

If the show is an example of how a great captain does things, the Light has no hope in any battle in any war against the Shadow.

His portrayal doesn't just do him a disservice, it does a disservice to all of humanity where military actions are concerned.

2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Its gonna turn out shes a DF and was actually going to kill Perrin when he killed her. 

Rafe has explicitly denied that.

So, unless he's lying ...

9 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Would love to see an adaptation of this 

Be careful what you wish for.

Rafe might take that on next.

Has anyone seen the map Rafe is using for his geography?  Because it clearly isn't the one that's part of literally every book in the series.

I thought I had misheard something my first time through, then on a re-watch this weekend I confirmed what I thought I'd gotten wrong.

Sorry for the wall-o-text below, but bear with me.

To wit:

In the book, Baerlon is about a week north of Taren Ferry, and that's roughly the same as the distance across the entirety of the Two Rivers.  Shadar Logoth is about another day's journey northeast of Baerlon, along the Arinelle river.  Ghealdan is south of the Two Rivers, with its capitol of Jehannah being at least that same total distance south of the border.  

So, roughly four weeks travel between Shadar Logoth and the spot where Logain was captured in the show.  If it could be traveled in a straight line, which it couldn't be.  Because either the entire Two Rivers would be in the way (with both rivers being uncrossable there) or skirting east of the Taren and having to deal with just the White river, but now with Garen's Wall as well.

Yet in the show, what seems to be the day after Lan and Moiraine escape Shadar Logoth and Nynaeve catches up to them, Lan is able to head off to a nearby clifftop and actually see the party of Reds and Greens traveling by, and he says they're "three hours to the southwest."

In the show, they don't go through Baerlon at all (though it supposedly still exists in Rafeworld somewhere) and Shadar Logoth is only about three days away from Taren Ferry - in some unspecified direction.  But that's still multiple days away from the Andor/Ghealdan border if the map is even partially consistent between the book and the show.

I know that Logain probably wasn't captured in the actual capitol of Ghealdan, but the battle where it happened would still have been somewhere in the country.  And I know that the Reds and Greens would have been traveling back toward Tar Valon for at least a few days by that point. 

But where in that route would they ever be a few hours southwest of Shadar Logoth?  Without needing to cross at least one major river to get there? 

And Whitebridge doesn't answer that last bit, because it's both in the wrong direction and crosses the wrong way.

Please note: "three hours southwest" would place the party with Logain CLOSER than were our protagonists met the Whitecloaks.

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Lets try this again: you're rationalizing using the book for points in the show...but where are they in the book?

I didn't read that comment that way.

I read it as the book showing that Liandrin is arrogant and ignorantly overconfident in the show.

But then, that was the intent in my post, so I could just be projecting agreement that doesn't actually exist.

?

7 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Tam gains one advantage, in addition to being a blademaster, in close quarters because he's not a large as the trolloc. I don't recall what the show has the trolloc wielding, but I suspect it's a weapon to swung, and it probably is like an ax which does not slice, where as Tam's sword can jab and slice. In close quarters, the skilled human with a sword looking to kill should be better than a much larger trolloc swinging for the fences. But, trollocs can be taken out with a well placed dagger wound, so who really is the blademaster in the show? Our wisdom is also  skilled assassin. 

In that scene, the trolloc is using what you could call a kind of axe.  The head extends almost two feet along the shaft toward the handle, but only sticks out a few inches.  It's definitely not a sword, as described in the book.

And incidentally, though a sword can jab, Tam never does so.  He makes a series of fairly shallow slashes, which have little to no effect.   Which is why Rand has to step in and actually stab the damn thing.  Same as Nynaeve.

On 1/21/2022 at 12:44 PM, bryce0110 said:

Kerene also had a similar ear piece but it was on her lower earlobe, whereas Moiraine's was more around the back.

On 1/21/2022 at 1:00 PM, Andra said:

Good catch!

I'll definitely have to make a note on my re-watch of who has one and who doesn't.

 

Who knows - pure speculation, but could it have something to do with their Warder bond?  Maybe Moiraine taking it off is how Moiraine masked the bond? 

So, I've been back through the first three episodes.

The odd fingerless gloves are in the very first scene of the Ep.1 prologue.  Don't know what they are, though Moiraine frequently holds a pose as if her hands hurt.  No idea what that means.

The gold plating on her ear(s) doesn't appear yet.  She's wearing earrings instead so far.  The first scene that shows us enough of her ears to tell is the bathtub scene with Lan.  And she clearly doesn't have the gold plating.

I'll keep looking - the scene above with Kerene should come up in Ep.4.

3 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, she implied that it would have been her job to bond Rand...

Actually, if I remember correctly, she thought that would be a really bad idea.

5 minutes ago, Pembie said:

I didn’t get any of that really from reading it But then again they need to be in it more that’s why I think there’s too many characters I forget about the smaller ones

 

thanks for your help 

My pleasure.

The mission to the Black Tower is ordered by Elaida in the prologue to Crown of Swords.  At the time, she believes that Rand is still Galina's prisoner (she either hasn't heard about Dumai's Wells yet, or it hasn't happened yet) and that most of the reported Ash'aman probably can't channel.  And those that can are probably weak, and definitely lack training.  So she only sends 50 sisters and a couple hundred of the Guard (since Reds don't have Warders).

By the time those Reds get to the Black Tower, Dumai's Wells has happened, and the Ash'aman have no fear left of Sisters.  When word gets back to Elaida, she abandons them at Alviarin's urging.

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Quite possibly!

And condoms.

Lots of condoms.

On 1/21/2022 at 4:53 AM, Ralph said:

Liandrin says in the cave that no army can defeat seven full sisters. 

Dumai's Wells called.  They have a message for Liandrin.

And if Valda can have the collection of rings he had, in RafeWorld it must not be that difficult for non-channelers to get the drop on Sisters.

18 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

Two years? Wasn’t it 20?

In the show, I believe she said she had been away from the Tower for two years.

The search had been going on for twenty, but she wasn't away the entire time.

On 1/17/2022 at 12:56 PM, Pembie said:

I thought it was quite good some of the plot threads seem to be finally happening Matts story especially I find Perrin quite pointless to story he never seems to have much too do I do think there are too many characters though the white cloaks are very pointless and I don’t fully understand all the stuff with the sea fork and their bargin to Rand and why they have gone to Far Maddening or Luc I remember he was slayer or something in a wolf dream I find parts very confusing and bit boring

Rand had his personal reasons for going to Far Madding, both for justice against turncoat Ash'aman and to further his research into his future actions.  We receive confirmation there about something previously just suspected - that Luc and Slayer are in some way the same person.

But I do agree that Far Madding seems generally irrelevant to the story, given that pretty much everything that was gained there could have been gained anywhere.

The point to Perrin's arc become clear in later books, and is actually quite significant.  And the Whitecloaks are a part of that arc.

And to be clear, Mat's arc and Perrin's arc never really come back together until the very end.

6 hours ago, Holyheretic said:

I feel like what's really messed up. Is that no one seems to think what alanna did was wrong and tell her she did wrong. Verin was like oh well. It's the gender hypocrisy on the re reads that really ruin books I always skip the girls parts on re reads now 

Actually, quite a few people did exactly that.  Some even using language that equated it to rape.

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, her outward criticism was primarily that it made her job harder.  But she didn't skimp on the other bit either.

Verin has reasons to react the way she does, but she doesn't dismiss it either.

5 hours ago, Pembie said:

Can someone explain to me what is the story with Logain Gabrielle and Toveine is exactly I can’t remember The sisters are there to kill men that can channel I think or spy on the black tower or something I don’t really understand Why are they with Logain is he good evil helping them with their mission 

Toveine Gazal and Gabrelle Brawley are Red sisters sent covertly to the Black Tower by Elaida to capture and gentle any male channelers they find.  And possibly to kill them, as is at least implied.

They fail before they can even start, and are both bonded (and Compelled) by Logain in the process.  They are with him because of that.

Their failure is primarily a failure of Tower intelligence - with both the numbers of Ash'aman and their strength in the Power being wildly underestimated.  But also a failure of Elaida to understand her own Foretelling.  As she has failed consistently throughout.

Logain is good.  Toveine and Gabrelle believe they are good (I don't think either of them turn out to be Black Ajah), though their mission is not.  He isn't helping them do anything, he's preventing it.  Though he is protecting them from others that might harm them for their failure.

2 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Which is the point being made.   Always convenient to have a fall guy - which in this case was going to be Liandrin or Moiraine.   And as we saw it was schemed between Moiraine & Siuan to let Moiraine take the exile and still allow her free rein to continue.   Therefore it is a moot point whether not Liandrin or Moiraine or anyone had mentioned any other names - the target was going to be on one back.    

It's not the outcome in the show of Liandrin's "charges" that is the problem.  It's the fact that anyone in the Hall gave them the time of day.  Much less treat them like an inescapable trap.

The charges were patently BS on their face, and in the Tower RJ describes, would have gotten Liandrin disciplined for even bringing them up in the Hall.

According to Tower rules, the Sister who is given command has complete responsibility.  Liandrin (as a Red) had command over Logain's capture and treatment.  Also according to Tower rules, any Sister's business is her own, unless specifically ordered to do something.  Trying to blame Moiraine for her own mission's errors would have earned Liandrin a public penance.  Sticking her nose into Moiraine's private affairs would possibly have earned her a private one.

Pretending an individual Blue (not a Sitter or the head of an Ajah) was responsible for a failure that is EXPLICITLY the job of the Red (locating male channelers and False Dragons), should have gotten her laughed out of the Hall by every single member - including her own Sitters.

5 hours ago, SingleMort said:

My problem with the herron being used only as a means to identify Tam is that they show Tam's face immediately after so we would already know it was Tam without the sword. If they had decided to use a different younger actor for Tam in the flashback your point would have made sense but they didn't so showing the sword is a waste of time. 

But it does seem as if that's the only thing Rafe is using it for - as if it's Tam's personal sigil, rather than something with an important meaning.  We know Lan sees the mark, and unlike the books, never mentions to Rand that it has any significance at all.

Which might be considered a gap in the story if we weren't also missing every bit of him training the Two Rivers folk how to use the weapons that most of them no longer have.

In the books, Rand had the sword, Mat had the bow, and Perrin had the axe - the one made by a character that doesn't exist.  He starts off testing them with the bow, and is surprised how well all three of them do.  In the show, no one but Rand had anything more than a belt knife.  And Rand had both the sword and the bow.  And Lan never even tries to train any of them.

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

Blademaster is a status you only get by killing another blademaster, iirc

 

And only a blademaster has the right to a heronmark sword. 

I think I remembered reading somewhere in the books that it could also be granted by the judgment of a group of blademaster peers.  Killing one in combat is just the one way that's never questioned.

Something like that must be the case, or there could never be more of them than exist at any arbitrary time.  Or to quote another franchise, "There Can Be Only One."

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

If this were true why would everyone meeting Rand assume he is a true blade master. I know Morgase(??) and GB have that conversation in Caemlyn, but still implied it would be unusual

But what Bryne says in that conversation is that he's too young to have earned it.  Even though literally everyone in the room (including him) immediately sees Rand as a potential deadly threat as soon as they hear Elaida "whisper" it.

And we do know of examples where other characters claimed not to believe he had any right to it, and at least pretended to threaten to take it from him.

Whether they were just bluffing because they were actually afraid of him, we don't know.

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

In fact when he indeed meet another heron mark the guy is all "oh let's see what does it takes to earn the heron mark on this side of the ocean"

And he shows him.  Thus earning the heron - finally.

10 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Well I feel foolish. It helps when I read with my eyes open.

 

I caught that first point you made about the male sa'angreal, but COMPLETELY misread how the female sa'angreal sentence was written. You right.

No problem.

I've had similar confusion about some things that were only cleared up on the second (or fourth or fifth) re-read.

On 1/20/2022 at 3:27 AM, VooDooNut said:

"The male figure could link him to a huge replica of itself, the most powerful male sa’angreal ever made, even if he were on the other side of the Aryth Ocean from it. It had only been finished after the Dark One’s prison was resealed—How do I know that?—and hidden before any of the male Aes Sedai going mad could find it. The female figure could do the same for a woman, joining her to the female equivalent of the great statue he hoped was still almost completely buried in Cairhien. With that much power… Moiraine had said death could not be Healed."

I read that differently.

He's not saying that the male sa'angreal is actually on the other side of the Aryth Ocean (which neither of them are - Tremalking is actually just off the coast) but that the access key could connect him to it even if it was.

He's also not saying that the female figure links to the statue buried in Cairhien, he's saying it links to its female equivalent (wherever it is).  At the time, he probably doesn't know where it is.  We only find out for sure that he knows it is on Tremalking just before the Cleansing, when he explains his plans to Cadsuane.

He probably learned its location either from Herid Fel, or from Min's research.  The only way he would have known its location as early as the passage in question is if the Finns told him about it when he asked his three questions in Tear.

13 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Even as aged up as they are from the books I wouldn't place them as that old though, and she still seems awfully young to be on any advisory council. I'd say the same of the boys too.

It's almost as if Rafe isn't using the initiation to be for the Women's Circle, but simply as her coming of age.  The episode never even mentions the Women's Circle - just as it never mentions the Village Council.  Or the Mayor.  And it implies that Marin is the innkeeper, not Bran.

But then, it isn't Emond's Field anymore in the show.  It's a town called "Two Rivers."  Which, even though it's geographically more inaccessible being in the actual mountains, is somehow not isolated from the outside world.

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

It was a major story arc for Rand's deveopment.  I highly doubt they will cut it.  They need it to further the storyline.  

Pretty much everything in the Eye of the World that was a major story arc for Rand's development has been cut.  Or replaced with something else entirely.