34 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Given all the rhetoric the show producers have given about any criticism…..Safely say they reject it in its entirety and openly insult those even give as much as the slightest critique…

 

I doubt Bezos is aware of the show.

He may not be watching it, or paying attention to fan sites and Amazon reviews.  But the show exists because he personally wanted it.

He's aware of it.  If only as a very expensive investment.

13 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Why would they change the way they write the character if zero criticism has been accepted? Indeed only  the approbation some fans have lavished on the show has been taken onboard so there is every reason to continue the way they started and no reason to change.

The only reason would be if Amazon pays attention to sites like this, and tells Rafe he has to.

Fan criticism won't make Rafe change.  Bezos criticism would.

So, I started my binge last night, and got halfway through.

Finishing tonight.

I may run through it again in a week or two.

1 hour ago, tsmacro said:

Not a fan of Mat's character in the tv show so far. Hopefully they'll redeem themselves in season 2. Starting out fresh with a new actor there's at least a chance.

I agree.  Except about a new actor being a solution.

I can't think of any of the issues I have with Mat that I would lay at the actor's feet.  They are all about how his character is written, and the actions they write for him.

I like that he cares about his sisters, but the reason for it is a big problem.  I also like that they gave him flashes of the humor that he's known for.  Neither of those is enough to save what they've done to the character for me.

But still hoping for a redemption in season 2.

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

That can either support the viewpoint or not. Not every young couple has sex everytime they are alone or share a bed. I see what you mean though. I think the EF in the show is a bit more open and free with (premarital) sex, but that's not important for me personally and it doesn't bother me.

 

Are we getting a bit offtopic? ?

What thread hasn't gotten off-topic? ?

I actually had to go back through and figure out how a Perrin/Laila thread got onto premarital sex in general.  It was something about them being old enough to be married, rather than being young and unrealistically innocent.

8 hours ago, fra85uk said:

But Prime should be more popular for the simple fact that in many countries (eg here in Italy) people have Prime video included for free when subscribing for the shipping of goods. 

True, but you still have to look for it.  You can't stumble across it flipping through channels.

Interesting tidbit: That's actually how I discovered GOT.  I hadn't seen any ads for it, and discovered the first episode while channel-surfing.

6 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Ingenious, but it's more likely to be bad writing or editing.

No, it's actually that they changed it in the show.

The lanterns were something the show invented for Bel Tine.  The attack happened after that.

Not on the night before.  As far as I could tell, Episode 1 never even uses the word Winternight.

36 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Did everyone know they had sex in the show? I don't remember if it was told or shown.

It would be hard to miss.

After all, the parents had just told them "We're going to bed.  You kids 'do the dishes.'"  Then they spent the night in one or the other of their beds.

It wasn't shown on screen, but there was also no attempt to even pretend they were hiding it.

20 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

No it isnt the character from the book, but, it does serve to show that under the surface of Perrin rage boils. I don't think that is meant to be implied from the TV show but I was ok with the writers having him kill someone. I have said many times I would have much preferred it wasn't a wife but I do understand why. 

As for the 2 rivers generally, I always assumed that off the page it was not a pure innocent upbringing, now that is my view of the 2 rivers, it is also the view of friends of mine who have read the books. Your view is your own and neither is wrong or right, but, it shows that there are book readers who are more closely aligned to Rafe as to some aspects of the 2 rivers than others. I have a friend who grew up in a small farming community in north wales. Without the threat of Wolves, death by disease or the other threats you have in a fantasy world by the age of 14 he and his friends where very aware of the life death cycle. Being taught to kill and butcher animals for food, being involved in helping animals mate and breed. He said that having nothing really to do for fun the teenagers would get together and explore and experiment. In a world where you have even more threat and danger I always saw the youngsters of the 2 rivers as sneaking away and doing things the adults would never approve of. Now that is my view based on personal experiance as a 16yo (the age I was when I first read the books) and the experiance of friends of mine. Other will have a different view of things but it doesn't mean I am wrong or you are right. It just means we take different things from the books. 

There's a huge difference between what people sneak around to do because they don't want to get caught doing, and what is accepted out in the open.

In the Emond's Field of the books, it would unquestionably not have been OK for Rand and Egwene to have been getting busy with everyone's approval.

This is not a "different view" of things.  It's what the books explicitly say it was like.

Again - your view might be more realistic in this world.  But Randland isn't this world.

4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Except: Rand comes shirtless from another room to the dining room and tells Egwene she let him fall asleep. That suggests they did not have sex in the dining room.

That was the next morning.  They weren't still in the dining room.

They spent the night in a room with a bed - whoever's bed it was.

13 hours ago, Joe B said:

The more I think about it, I think the attack was MEANT to occur on Winternight and probably did. I think the problem was the dialogue not supporting it. Or editing and moving scenes around???

So I just watched it again, and you were right the first time.

The attack on the town of "Two Rivers" ("Emond's Field" is never mentioned, as far as I can tell) happened on Bel Tine.  AFTER the lantern lighting invented for the show.  No one ever refers to Winternight.

Rand and Tam - as well as Moiraine and Lan - arrive the day before Bel Tine, with Moiraine and Lan getting in after dark, in the rain.  They stay overnight at the Inn (I don't think "Winespring" is ever said) so Rand and Egwene can have their last night of hanky panky.  The morning of Bel Tine, Fain arrives.

Then Rand and Tam go back home.  Where Rand wonders why they didn't stay in town for the holiday.

If the Bonus Content says Winternight, it's repeating the book, not the show.

It started early for me.

Rand and Tam on Winternight.  The whole thing.

Rand willing Bela to "Run!   And she ran."

33 minutes ago, Rhavin said:

Wrong. 100 is always the maximum in google trends, everything is relative to that cap, so the highest trending keyword-cloud gets 100. With season 7 GoT as reference, season 1 GoT is a 10% and WoT a 1% at its peak relative to the traction of GoT at season 7.

You should read my followup post.

On 1/13/2022 at 9:11 AM, Rhavin said:

If u insist… the insignificant little red rise at the end is WoT, the blue rise of GoT at their first season (2011) is about 6 times the traction that WoT gained in its.

2 hours ago, Andra said:

If those two graphs are using the same vertical axes, WOT peaked at about 40 for season one, while GOT only hit about 10.  GOT only hit 40 in season five.

I think what's being asked about an "apples to apples" comparison is to see those two things side by side: Season One buzz for each.

The insignificant little rise on this graph looks like it's what's happening in January of 2021.  Long before most people not on this site had heard anything about it.

Actually, never mind.

I went to Google trends and realized that the vertical axis always puts the 100 as whatever the maximum is for what's being looked at.  So yes, GOT's season one peak (June 2011) was about 9% of its eventual series maximum from S8 (April 2019) .  So far, WOT has only hit 3% of that same maximum.

So as far as Google is concerned at least, GOT's first season was three times as buzzy as WOT's.

That could be mostly a matter of showing on HBO rather than Amazon.  Which made it much more likely that viewers might stumble on it by accident flipping through channels.  On Amazon, you have to be looking for it.

But I suspect it goes beyond that.

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am also against the idea that they are all innocents, I imagine that getting a punishment won’t stop things happening, historically supposedly chase societies have actually been shown to be hot beds of indecency, it was just all very well hidden. 
 

If the families live in shared sleeping space then children will be aware of what sex is. Being it is a farming area then everyone will be aware of the birds and the bees and the idea that 19 year old men and women in a non religious community don’t have urges that they give into is just silly. 
 

No it wasn’t presented on the page but I think Rafes version of the 2 rivers is far closer to how I always pictured it, especially on a second read after knowing what the some of the boys get up to just months later on the road. 

Historically, in our world, your take might be accurate.

But in RJ's world it is explicitly stated that they were ignorant of events in the larger world around them until long after the events were over, and that premarital sex was not accepted.  Look at the conversations Rand had with Aviendha about "asking permission."

Also, none of the Two Rivers families whose homes are described show the parents sharing living quarters with their children.  Even Rand and Tam had their own separate bedrooms.

Word of the outside world came from peddlars and merchants.  And not really anyone else, because there really wasn't anyone else.  Peddlars came every few months.  Merchants probably only came after the harvest was in, to trade for wool and tabac.  Taren Ferry probably saw merchants more frequently, given their location.  But those merchants rarely came far enough into the area to get all the way to Emond's Field.  Nor did Emond's Fielders routinely travel as far as Taren Ferry.

The boys were unusual for how far they went on their "outings."  And it was still considered boastful for someone to say they had gone as far as Watch Hill or Deven Ride.  Which were only the next villages to north and south.

The show may provide a "more realistic" picture.  But it is CLEARLY different from the book on this.

On 1/13/2022 at 9:11 AM, Rhavin said:

If u insist… the insignificant little red rise at the end is WoT, the blue rise of GoT at their first season (2011) is about 6 times the traction that WoT gained in its.

If those two graphs are using the same vertical axes, WOT peaked at about 40 for season one, while GOT only hit about 10.  GOT only hit 40 in season five.

I think what's being asked about an "apples to apples" comparison is to see those two things side by side: Season One buzz for each.

The insignificant little rise on this graph looks like it's what's happening in January of 2021.  Long before most people not on this site had heard anything about it.

48 minutes ago, Joe B said:

The more I think about it, I think the attack was MEANT to occur on Winternight and probably did. I think the problem was the dialogue not supporting it. Or editing and moving scenes around???

It may be that they're treating the calendar the same way the Jewish calendar works.  A day (or a holiday) actually begins at sundown what we would call the day before.  The Jewish calendar runs from sundown to sundown, not midnight to midnight.  For example, today is Friday.  The Jewish Sabbath (Saturday) begins at sundown today, and ends at sundown tomorrow.

In which case Winternight isn't its own day, it's just the evening part at the beginning of Bel Tine.

Of course that would mean that Bran saying "tomorrow" was wrong, because "tomorrow" would actually have ended at sundown.  When Winternight (and Bel Tine) began.

Or is he actually saying "if they're still here tomorrow (ending at sundown), they can celebrate Bel Tine (starting at sundown) with us."  Because nobody starts a journey at night if they can avoid it.

Given how many other things were changed in the first episode for no reason beyond showing that they could, it's not really surprising that they could have changed the day as well.

13 hours ago, Joe B said:

I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I WANT the attack to have occurred on Winternight.  After another rewatch, I am even more convinced that the attack on the night of Bel Tine. Here is a timeline:

Day 1 (which appears to be Winternight, thought there is no mention)

1. Rand and Tam arrive to EF.

2. Moiraine and Lan arrive.

3. That night, during clean up, Tam says ..if there is an Aes Sedai here... Bran then cuts him off and says "then she will enjoy Bel Tine TOMORROW like the rest of us."

4. They stay the night.

 

Day 2 (Bel Tine)

1. Padan Fain arrives... "Merry Bel Tine. Merry Bel Tine"

2. A bunch of things happen

3. Rand and Tam return to the Westwood (I mean "up-mountain")

4. Around dusk, Rand says "maybe we should be at Bel Tine to light a candle for her". Then they light a candle using a match firestick striker ???

5. It gets dark in EF and people are floating their lanterns.

6. Marin strikes up the party.

7. Then the trolloc attack occurs.

 

Day 3

1. Rand brings Tam down the mountain

2. Tam is healed

3. They all leave.

 

I am okay with BTTA. However, it still chafes when people say it happened on Winternight in the show. The book lover in me cries inside each time, because I know it should have. It should have.

You may be right - I'll have to check again.

The timeline I wrote up was based on the book.  Hence, the mention of Thom.

Also, if that's correct, then the most ridiculous part of it wouldn't be the precise day the attack happened.  I mean, what's one day either way?

It's having Rand and Tam stay overnight, then go back home ON BEL TINE.  Preposterous.

On 1/3/2022 at 7:50 PM, DeadRabbit23 said:

I don't know if that bothered me as so much as the fact they kept name-dropping this "Eye of the World" and just wondering: "but what is it?" About halfway through I was plucking my stubble and by the end was grateful just to find out what it was. When the two Forsaken showed up, I was so interested in the Eye is was just like "Oh, okay, bad guys."

Part of the story was that the Eye was something of legend, that people had heard of (at least vaguely) but no one knew what it was.  Moiraine knew, because she had already been there.

But even she (as in a few other things) appears to have been wrong about what it was actually for.

The Eye was a hole in the ground full of pure, untainted Saidin.  That bit she knew.

But there wasn't enough of it to make a huge difference to anything, if that's what it was for.  Rand (and a couple Forsaken) expended it all having a fight that used a whole lot less Power than fights we see later.

It appears that its true purpose was to hide the objects that were submerged in it, until someone who could use all that power came by and took it away.

On 1/12/2022 at 3:11 PM, Joe B said:

Question for episode 1 that's been bugging me. Did the trolloc attack occur on Winternight or Bel Tine?

Here are possible explanations.

Winternight:

1. Rand and Tam came down a day earlier than the books....Winternight's Eve?

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lighting are Winternight celebrations.

3. Padan Fain arrives on Winternight day, as in the books and says "Happy Bel Tine" to the kids, because Bel Tine is a multi-day time of year??

 

Bel Tine:

1. Rand and Tam come down on Winternight, as in the book.

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lightning are Bel Tine celebrations

3. Padan Fain doesn't arrive on Winternight, contrary to the book. He arrives the next day (Bel Tine) saying, "happy Bel Tine" to the kids.

4. Rand literally says "Maybe we should be at Bel Tine. To light a candle for her."

 

Other option:

1. It doesn't matter. The show is the show and the books are the books. Get over it.

2. I try to go with this option, but it eats at me every time someone mentions the Winternight attack when discussing the show. I will have to do another rewatch, but is Winternight even mentioned in the show?

 

Under the calendar the books use, Winternight is nothing more than Bel Tine eve.  I don't think it is its own holiday, and I don't think they consider it to start until sundown.

All the things we see happening the day Rand and Tam first came to town are preparations for the holiday the next day, except for those that are specifically related to dark - like the lanterns.

The dancing on the Green, the outdoor games, the food - those are all Bel Tine.

If the attack happened at night, it was Winternight.

Wishing kids "happy Bel Tine" the day before would be the same as wishing "Merry Christmas" the day before.  It's a recognition of the season, not the specific day of the holiday.

Also, regarding when outsiders arrived in EF in the book:

All of them except Fain were already there when Rand and Tam got into town on Winternight day.  We know that Thom got in late the night before and had to pound on the Inn's door to be let in.  "Alys" and "Andra" probably arrived earlier the same day as Thom.  I don't recall the book ever saying specifically.  But they had been there long enough that she had already been asking around town about the boys.

Given those details, Lan and Moiraine arrived the day before Winernight day.  Thom arrived the night before Winternight day.  Fain arrived on Winternight day.  And the attack happened after dark on Winternight.

6 hours ago, Deviations said:

I think the thing for me is that these look like anthills.  Structurally, a tower should be hollow unless it's a statue.

Yeah, those are more like the remains of columns that have weathered with time.  Rather than towers that have been broken.

Also - the earlier depiction of Paaren Disen is supposed to show 3000+ years of abandonment.  While the Towers of Malkier have only been vacant for about fifty years.  The parts of the towers that remain would hardly be eroded at all.

On 1/12/2022 at 1:27 PM, Ralph said:

https://www.small-screen.co.uk/barney-harris-sacked-from-the-wheel-of-time-heres-why/

 

Any thoughts on this? 

 

Someone pointed out the vaccine wasn't available in UK for under thirties yet, but it is possible amazon made arrangements?? 

I don't think that's likely to be the answer.  It's not something Amazon could have "made arrangements" for.  Someone who wasn't eligible to be vaccinated wasn't eligible.  Eligibility was based on government requirements wherever they were, not on whether Amazon was able to pay for them.

And you can't fire someone for not doing something they weren't eligible to do.

It's conceivable that they cut him from Season 2 because he told them he would never consider it.  But they would have had plenty of time to complete Season 1 before that became an issue.  Remember, S1 filming only started back up in April of 2021, and wrapped in May.  They had only needed about a month to finish after coming back.

In the UK (where he's from), he wouldn't have been eligible until June.

In the U.S. (where he lives) he would have first become eligible in mid-April.  And the decision had already been made by that point.

It wouldn't surprise me that much if that's the direction the show takes.  That the weaves with Saidin themselves are currupted, rather than just the (eventual) sanity of the channelers.

It would be a(nother) clear change from the books, where the same weave produces the same effect, every time.  Provided the channeler has the strength and control to weave it.

It's actually the thing that made the aftermath of Elayne's gateway from Ebou Dar so dramatic.  Because for both male and female channelers, the Power didn't do what they expected it to.

2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

The are surrounded by the lakes, so they have to be in the same general area.

Right.  But those lakes could surround an entire city, with the towers all being within it.