12 hours ago, Caelan Arendor said:

I delved into literature and the internet in order to explore to which the Forsakens' names evoke parallels to mythological or religious figures, with a particular emphasis on Jewish-Christian doctrine.

 

 

I would like to begin at this point with Ishamael, an unmistakable paronym of Samael (Heb. סמאל), a multifaceted figure in rabbinic literature and Jewish mysticism. In contrast to Christian doctrine—where the Devil represents fallen angels cast out of heaven by God—“devils,” insofar as they are mentioned in the Torah or the Talmud at all, are more accurately understood as instruments of divine will and a sort of heavenly minion. 

 

Samael’s profile is shaped primarily in the Midrashim, in kabbalistic writings and in apocryphal gospels. There he resembles the later Christian concept of the angel of death, a heavenly prosecutor and a tester of humankind.  He is also said to be the consort of the demoness Lilith, a female figure who fascinates me far more than the simpleminded Eve of the Christian creation narrative.

 

Taken together, the original figure of Samael seems to me far less malevolent than Jordan’s chief villain Ishamael in his epic. Next time we shall try to shed light to an another forsaken and where his (or her name) could have been borrowed from.

 

Ishamael cannot be a reference to Samael.  That job is already taken - by Sammael.

Ishamael is almost certainly a reference to Ishmael - someone who was promised to rule over men, with twelve sons chosen to be princes under him.  The name he went by in the Trolloc Wars - Ba'alzamon - is a combination of Ba'al and Beelzebub.

It's true that many of the names of the Forsaken appear to be direct references to characters from the Abrahamic religions, and others from pagan mythology, but some of those references are for their given names and some are for their assumed names as Forsaken.

For example, it appears that Lilith is referenced in Moghedien's original name - Lillen Moiral.

Early on, I thought Jordan had made a mistake in The Great Hunt when he had Verin say flat out that Moiraine had sent her to join Rand and the hunters.  Then shortly after, had Moiraine deny she had done anything of the kind, and wonder why Verin went.

Turns out. it wasn't a mistake.  It was just foreshadowing ten books ahead of time.

8 hours ago, Caelan Arendor said:

The two River boys enter Shadar Logoth. Here they were lured by the prospect of treasure and followed a man who called himself Mordeth into a hidden chamber.

Rand notices that Mordeth casts no shadow and makes a remark about it. Mordeth swells to enormous size and is about to kill the boys, when he suddenly turns to smoke and evaporates fleeing.

What caused Mordeth to cease his actions, when all the trumps where in his hand? Any ideas?

 

I always interpreted that as his reaction to sensing the coins Moiraine had given the boys.

He recognized what that meant, and wanted nothing to do with an Aes Sedai.

12 hours ago, HeronMarkedBlade said:

God, that would be even worse than Rafes version. 
 

I cringed at literally every cut you listed, except the circus.

 

Tam as Damodred 🤮 

Taim, not Tam.  Demandred, not Damodred.

And many readers (including myself) thought Mazrim Taim would turn out to be the disguise Demandred was using - until Jordan changed his mind near the end of the books.  This potential plot point is referred to as "Taimandred."

I always wish someone good luck when starting back on this adventure.

Happy reading.

On 10/8/2025 at 3:59 PM, Jaysee said:

I started to read the series about 25 years ago, back when I was in high school. I got busy with college when I was on Lord of Chaos, and when I tried to go back to it, I had forgotten too much. But despite the gripes I have about every single one of the books I read, it has always been a regret that I never finished it.

 

I was talking with a friend about the series earlier this year after the TV series got cancelled. He also had started the series and never finished. I proposed a buddy read in July, and we decided to start with New Spring. But it turns out that I have way more time to read than him, so here I am now starting on The Shadow Rising. To motivate myself to read the entire series this time, I decided to write my thoughts down about every single chapter I read. This works because even when the book hits a slump, I still want to push forward so I can write about the chapter and talk about everything that was wrong with it. Nynaeve's braid tugging in The Dragon Reborn, I'm looking at you!

I wish you well on your adventure.

I was one of those who started reading at the very beginning, and re-read it every time I bought new books.  So I never had the opportunity to experience the entire thing fresh without pause. 

It's interesting to think about how that would have changed things.

20 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

That if was only when she saw Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene together, was it an if. Which is clearly the Last Battle, before Rand entered the Pit Of Doom, which easily could have gone either way.

 

Rand, Nyneave and Moiraine alone showed certainty, enough to know that what those three were going to do was important. She just had no idea that sealing the Bore was that important a thing to do.

 

All the spark viewings fighting the darkness were their actions from the Merrilor meeting, to the Last Battle, to the sealing of the Bore, and only when Moiraine, Nyneave and Rand were together did the viewing show the sparks winning.

Actually, she mentioned a different specific viewing she had (without giving details) that referred directly to Moiraine and success or failure in the Last Battle.  It was different from the sparks that she saw not as a single event, but as a visualization of a continuing struggle.

"He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..." is how she puts it one of the times she talks about it.

It's different from the times (like with Egwene and Gawyn) where she sees two courses of action leading to two different results.  In this one, the viewing itself implies uncertainty.

3 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

It was foreseen. Min saw that she had a part to play, as far back as Book 1.

 

She saw sparks of light fighting the dark when it was just Moiraine and Nyneave alone in the room, and they exploded when she saw them both alone with Rand.

 

What she saw in images, was the full sealing of the Dark One. Withour Moiraine or Nyneave, Rand fails his mission. Egwene and Elayne would both betray him for their positions and the entities they lead. 

And Min's only "if" viewing was about this.

For every other viewing (that she understood) what she saw happened no matter what anyone did to try and prevent it.  Only that one could go either way.

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I'm going to pick a simple one - the Mercedes hood ornament in the museum...

 

Take it out of the story and the series is still fantastic - no big deal.  But we lose the connection to our recent past.  Very profound for me.

That's one of my favorites.

On 9/23/2025 at 11:51 PM, Loose Theremin said:

 

The IMDb page for Barney Harris says that his next job after leaving Wheel of Time in 2021 was The Severed Sun in 2024. So on the face of it he doesn't seem to have left WoT for another acting role.

Actually, his first job after leaving was Executive Producer on a short horror film released in 2022.

He may have left because he wanted to get behind the camera, rather than just act.

3 hours ago, Loose Theremin said:

 

But if the men who ended up at the Black Tower were overwhelmingly men who hadn't touched the source but could be taught then how were they identified and recruited ? They wouldn't have come forward themselves because they would have had no idea they could channel.

 

The fact that the number of Aes Sedai had been steadily declining over a long period of time and that the White Tower had done nothing about it was a flaw in Robert Jordan's writing in my opinion. Surely a crucial part of the Aes Sedai's mission would be to prepare for the last Battle.

 

And they could hardly do that if they had been twiddling their thumbs while their numbers were being significantly reduced over time. If they couldn't find enough new recruits then they would have to breed them by having babies themselves. Although I could understand it if Robert Jordan might have been reluctant to turn the White Tower into a creche.

Prior to Taim's "resonance," they WEREN'T identified and recruited.

Rand didn't know how to test potential male channelers.  He invited people to join him, but unless they had already started to channel on their own, they were just "twiddling their thumbs."

Also, Jordan's Aes Sedai were simply human.  Even a group that had explicit knowledge that the Last Battle would eventually come would have a hard time maintaining focus if they didn't know WHEN it would come. 

So even the least selfish or power-hungry of them spent their time following the goals of their respective Ajahs and trying to guide the world as best they could, while arguing with each other about how to go about that.  And they HOPED everything would gel in time to marshal the forces of the Light to fight that battle.

All Aes Sedai knew the Dragon would be reborn, but only a tiny few even believed he had to have free rein to lead.  Most thought he would need to be leashed to serve the Tower's purposes - or even eliminated.  Even the rebels in Salidar weren't all on board with letting him act independently.

If they couldn't even get that right, why would you expect them to do everything else correctly?

Remember, the Prophecies didn't tell them what they would need to do, or when they would need to do it.  And 3000 years is a loooong time to keep an organization primed to do something with that little information.  For a very long time, the White Tower has been mostly guessing.

Also, bear in mind that the Aes Sedai largely had no idea about the Wise Ones or the Windfinders.  They didn't have a clue just how many channelers there were outside the Tower, so they had no reason to believe that there would be anything to gain in looking for new recruits outside of those who made their own way to Tar Valon.

Should they have known better?  Possibly.  But they were only human.

And it's hard for a human to change their ways when they think they're the smartest person around.

So, a part of it is showing the assembled nobles that one of the world's "great captains" backs Egwene and her claim to the Amyrlin Seat.  And that she intended to act on that claim without stepping foot on Andoran soil.

Pelivar and Bryne were both needed to get those nobles to assemble where they did.

The bigger part was to manipulate the Hall to make a formal declaration of war - putting Egwene firmly and legally in command of the Salidar Aes Sedai.  Without them seeing it coming or recognizing the manipulation.

A much smaller part (so far as any of them knew at the time) was to start recruiting new Novices, building up the rebel side in sheer numbers beyond anything the Tower could imagine.

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This word is doing a whole lot of heavy lifting. 

True, but well deserved.

By any objective measure I can think of, the idea that ANY knowledgeable person within the world of the story would think the Dragon could be a woman fundamentally changes the source material.

The idea that Rand could knowingly have a romantic relationship with one of the Forsaken fundamentally changes the source material.

The idea that it required channeling to enter the Ways fundamentally changes the source material.

And so on.

8 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But you think twisting words is helpful in discussions? I fully clarified what I meant in that post, with clear arguments about what was objective and subjective. 

 

Nothing you have said in anyway contradicts what I wrote. 

 

That there were deviations from the source material is fact, as I clearly agreed. However this says nothing about the quality, necessity or how they affected someone's enjoyment of the series. These are subjective concepts, and yet many try to wriggle out of that by claiming deviations are objectively bad. They aren't. 

 

I don't see that preempting any discussion about the show is helpful. If the show was "objectively" too far from the source for you to enjoy it, that is a shame. But don't pretend that isn't a subjective opinion or that anyone that disagrees with you is objectively wrong. 

I didn't twist your words, I quoted them.  And the words I quoted clearly stated that whether the show deviated from the source material or not was a matter of subjective opinion, rather than something objectively identifiable. 

Your clarification didn't address the part I quoted.  It simply conceded that people have different opinions on whether this was successful or not.

Too many times I have seen legitimate, honest criticism of the show fundamentally changing the source material being dismissed as simply opinion - not about whether the changes work, but about whether they even exist.  It's belittling and dishonest, and it poisons any reasonable discussion.

On 8/29/2025 at 5:42 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I'm assuming that you are saying that faithfulness to the source material is an objective quality and that the characters in the show are objectively deviating from the characters in the book. 

 

I think this a twisting of the truth to state subjective opinion as fact. 

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this statement.  At all.

It's true that the question of whether any particular deviation is "good" or "bad," or whether too much deviation ruins the adaptation is a subjective measure.

But to claim that noting that deviations exist or noting how much the adaptation deviates from the source material is "subjective opinion" is nonsensical.

And this kind of dismissal of any and all honest criticism is a big part of what has gone wrong with discussions of the show on this forum and others like it.

It is an objective fact that the show deviated from the source material - from the opening scene of the first episode.  It is also an objective fact that these deviations from the source material continued in every episode of all three seasons.  Some deviations were small, some were very large.

But their existence is not "opinion."

11 hours ago, Loose Theremin said:

 

So the reason for the sudden abundance of male channelers was ' The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills ' ? A convenient explanation but not a very satisfying one. And that still wouldn't account for the long term steady decline in the number of female channelers.

It's pretty clear that "the Pattern needs more channelers" is part of it - but only part.

Since the end of Breaking, the only known male channelers have been wilders.  The "sudden abundance" is a direct result of the first testing, recruitment and training program in three thousand years.

Also, it's pretty clear that the long-term steady decline of female channelers isn't actually real.

The White Tower had pretty much given up active recruiting, and as a rule rejected potential Novices who were too old - but who were only "too old" because the Tower had missed them when they were young enough.  When Egwene "opened the book," the Salidar Aes Sedai very quickly had more Novices than the Tower itself had seen at one time in generations.  Even without counting all the Two Rivers girls collected by Verin and Alanna.

Given the numbers of Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin - and yes, even Damane - there's no real indication of this decline anywhere except within the Aes Sedai.  

It's just that because of their arrogance and ignorance, they had no clue just how many female channelers they had been missing for centuries.

I don't believe that vision was showing the end of channelers.  It was showing the end of the AIEL.

Because the Aiel had started a war with the Seanchan that they couldn't win, which resulted in their extermination.

Even if the Seanchan had taken the White Tower, too much of their power structure was based on channeling to wipe it out.  And since now male channelers were safe and could also be collared, they could be bred, rather than just enslaved.  It wouldn't be a matter of "allowing" channelers to procreate, but of requiring it.

On 9/25/2025 at 4:03 AM, urrutiap said:

what does the beginning of Eye of the World have to do with the badger in a bag?

That's where the original event being referenced happens.

Before anyone left Emond's Field.  Or had a reason to think they needed to.

18 hours ago, urrutiap said:

funniest moment in the Wheel of Time book series is  in the tail end of Towers of Midnight where Mat and Perrin reunite by luck. 

 

Mat has a badger in a bag for some reason lol

Re-read the beginning of Eye of the World.

It's literally that long of a throw-back.

On 9/18/2025 at 5:24 PM, Bodewhin said:

I'd never rewrite WOT. I couldn't rewrite WOT, it wouldn't be WOT anymore. 

 

I would write my own story. 

 

I think that's something that a lot of people should do, honestly. If a reader is that dissatisfied with a book they should write their own. I don't say that in a belittling or sarcastic way, I truly believe in the Devil's Advocate approach when it comes to writing. Taking grains of worlds and stories and remixing them is at the heart of fantasy writing. And instead of reimagining someone else's story, go imagine your own. 

This.

This hits the nail on the head of the biggest criticism of the show.  Or many other poor adaptations.

Don't take a loved story and change it just because you can.  Write your own.

Nynaeve's discovery of the consequences of getting married in a Sea Folk ceremony.

21 hours ago, dwn said:

 

I agree, but apparently it was still an option. Given that Galad uses the Damodred name, the simplest explanation is Tigraine took it.

Another is that Tigraine and Taringail gave Galad the Damodred name, and would have given a daughter the Mantear name, since only the daughter could take the Lion Throne.

It may have been possible that Tigraine and Taringail gave Galad the Damodred name, but it's unlikely.  Considering that Gawyn - who was also Taringail's son - was a Trakand.

But it would have been politically impossible for Tigraine to have taken the Damodred name.

She was the heir to a throne that by law no man could take.  She outranked her husband, who was a minor scion of a foreign royal house.

Taking his name would have implied that as queen she would be subservient to him, his house, and his native country's king.

Which was, of course, the reason that a Cairhienin lord would have wanted it to happen.  And also the reason that NO house of Andor would have accepted it.

That Cairhienin lord might have thought it was an option, but no one in Andor would have agreed.

Not about everything I would have changed with the start, but just one thing that Rafe changed that could have been good, but was cut in favor of one of the worst things he added to Episode 1.  This is a scene that we know was actually filmed, and was intended to be included, because a short clip of it was part of the first trailers, and we see the aftermath when Moiraine seeks out Nynaeve in the grotto.

Originally, part of Egwene's rite of passage included her "baptism" in the grotto and coming up out of the water through streaks of the seven Aes Sedai colors.  Visually very striking.  I would have liked to see that actually fleshed out.

But the only thing that remains from that scene is about two seconds in one of the early trailers, and a scene that actually made it on screen of Nynaeve cleaning the paint off of the rim of the pool when Moiraine finds her.

It was replaced with the ridiculous sequence of Egwene being yeeted into the river , where she received an injury we only hear about once.

It's actually available as a deleted scene on YouTube, where the CGI of the colors flowing toward her is kind of wonky.  But it's still better that what was chosen instead.  And makes infinitely more sense.

On 8/29/2025 at 10:08 PM, dwn said:

At one point one of the Cairhienin lords (maybe Dobraine, but I forget exactly where it happens) complains that Elayne should have been Elayne Damodred, that Taringail should have insisted that Morgase marry into Damodred rather than him marrying into Trakand.

 

Given that it sounds like the choice of name is a somewhat political thing and not entirely enforced by tradition, it's possible that Tigraine chose to marry into Damodred.

The problem with that scenario is that both Tigraine and Morgase outranked Taringail at the time of their marriages.  

Taringail was Laman's nephew, not his son.  Though Laman had no children at the time, it was presumed that he eventually would.  And those children would be in the direct line of succession to the Sun Throne - well ahead of Taringail.  But Tigraine was the Daughter-Heir when she married Taringail, while Morgase was the actual Queen.

It would have been impossible for either Mantear or Trakand to hold the Lion Throne after taking the name of a foreign house - especially through a husband they outranked.  If Morgase had taken the name Damodred after winning the throne, she would have immediately lost it again.

Prior to the War of Succession, Taringail certainly outranked anyone from House Trakand (which is why a Cairhienin lord would have gotten the idea) and any such marriage would have gone that way.  But "Morgase Damodred" would never have won the throne.  And once she won, she was his superior in every way.

It was considered good politics in Andor for Morgase to marry Tigraine's widower.  It would have been political suicide to take his name.

I suspect he was a Mantear when he was born, but took (or was given) his father's name when his mother disappeared.  Or at least when his mother's family lost its claim to the Lion Throne.  When he was two years old.

He could easily have been adopted by Morgase and taken the Trakand name, but for some reason that never happened.  Perhaps his father's wanted him to keep the Damodred name to keep his chances for the Sun Throne alive (Taringail certainly wanted to have his children on both thrones).  Or perhaps Galad chose it himself (once he was old enough) to honor his father.  Or to keep a continual reminder that he was no threat to the Daughter-Heir's ambitions.

Whatever the reason, his name meant that his younger half brother (one of them) would be the First Prince of the Sword.  And he would be able to follow a different path.