5 hours ago, Dedicated said:

The chapter ends with Thom beginning to tell Mat about a wager he made with a Domani woman. Does anyone know the significance of this? Does it relate to something later in the series or does it reveal something interesting about Thom or maybe Thom is telling Mat this story for a specific reason...?

So far as I can recall, it doesn't relate to anything.  It's simply Thom making conversation with Mat while setting up the stones board.

Of course, you could probably look at it the same as the game of stones itself - a diversion to keep Mat from thinking about just how stuck he is in Tear.  Both as Ta'veren tied to Rand, and by Moiraine wanting to keep him there.  At this point in the story, Mat more than anyone is easily diverted.

On 6/16/2022 at 12:29 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

On the contrary - portal stones are used again in the final books to transport shadowspawn (once the ways are closed to them) since they die on passing a gateway (except the gholam).  Portal stones become unnecessary to the central characters once they can travel.

It's true that Portal Sones appear again.  But only once that we know of.

And given the fact that we know they've been using the Ways all along, there's no reason to believe this single reappearance was part of a larger practice that we never hear about.  Though Rand put a lot of effort into doing so, the Ways were never successfully closed to the Shadowspawn.  Or if they were, it was only briefly.  Since we know for certain that whatever trap had been on the Waygate in Caemlyn was removed to permit invasion through it.

Which was the point of Verin's letter to Mat - the one he didn't read.

Also, this one example is technically from Sanderson, not Jordan.  Though I wouldn't say Jordan definitively excluded it from the notes Sanderson worked from.

Neither Nakomi nor the woman at the end are ever identified in the books, but there is a general consensus among book fans that they are the same person.  Sanderson has never clarified who she actually is, but has confirmed that there is something to know, and that he knows what it is.

He has also given hints in response to questions about Nakomi, saying things like someone was "sniffing under the right tree" when asking if she was Jenn Aiel.

Personally, I think it makes the most sense that she is another agent of the Creator, with an ability that doesn't involve channeling - similar to what we see with Rand and his pipe.  As far as what he needed to do, I think it refers to what he says in his next line about having asked the wrong question of the Finns.

He had asked them how to win and still live.  The answer was to switch bodies with Moridin.

10 hours ago, Skipp said:

The biggest example of AoE healing in the book that I recall is in tDR.  After the Wondergirls get captured by bandits, on the way to Tear, Nynaeve heals the dying Elayne and the process is so powerful/intense that Egwene's Headache is cured just by being near.

I believe if you read the scene again, Egwene is actually touching Elayne when that happens.  Having tried to Heal her herself.

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

There was the one Perrin ran into when he and the gang were chasing down Rand - somewhere on the way to Tear - Noam?

 

Always thought it would have been cool if there had been a few more - especially at the Last Battle.  Not hundreds of them, but maybe a dozen or two running with the wolves.  Would make Perrin and Elyas a bit less unique...

We don't see any more, but the Seanchan apparently know about it.  Or at least their version of the Prophecies does.

Also, I liked how we eventually see Noam again.  It's part of what Perrin needs to see to reconcile his two natures.

In a similar vein to Megan Fox:

Olivia Wilde.

16 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

So a couple of things on my re-read - not sure if these are inconsistencies or incongruities with the rest of the series:

Healing leaving a lasting impression similar to the Warder Bond - When Nynaeve comes to Baerlon she is immediately able to sense which Inn Moiraine and co are in because of her having healed Egwene of Breakbone fever. Is this connection via Healing something continued in the books?

Do we see objects like "Tar Valon Marks" being used as GPS tracking devices or is this a unique One Power element to the first book and subsequently abandoned?

 

What weave did Moiraine use to make herself huge? Some form of Illusion? If so then how did she step over the wall?

 

 

These wouldn't by any means be the only plot gimmicks that Jordan uses once or twice, then abandons completely.  Portal Stones are another pretty big example.

I don't recall the connection from Healing ever being mentioned again.  Which isn't that surprising, considering how many people get Healed, by how many Aes Sedai.  That kind of connection between all of them would get kind of messy.

I thought I remembered other objects being "tracked" in the same way Moiraine's tokens were, but can't think of the context off the top of my head.

Moiraine definitely used Illusion to change her appearance.  We see it happen again with the gaggle of Two Rivers girls after Rand told them all he was the Dragon.  Alanna did something similar to get their attention and calm them down, appearing to grow taller until her head brushed the ceiling.   

Moiraine didn't actually step over the wall in Baerlon, she walked through the gate that hadn't closed yet.  It was only her illusory image that did that.

10 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

We do see little of Men Healing with Saidin IIRC (long time since I read the books) so maybe that is a difference. I'll keep an eye out during my re-read.

As far as I recall, the only example we see in person of Healing via Saidin (we hear about it elsewhere, but don't see it) is Damer Flynn Healing Rand from being slashed with the Shadar Logoth dagger.  He hovers his hands over Rand's body, but doesn't touch him.

Perhaps that is an intentional difference.

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

The Nadrak woman, Vella, doing the sexy dance like Faile - sa’sara

 

Belgarath and Belgarion turning into wolves. 
 

The Mallorean soldiers and especially the Grolims have several similarities to the Children of the Light - though not nearly as developed 

Grolim?

Is that like "grolm?"

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

As for the rest, having Moiraine make the oaths in public is the shaming aspect.  The Hall knows what to expect of the oath to be, presumably, so if they view Moiraine as struggling to keep her voice heard they would figure it to be due to the embarrassment they expect her to be going through.  And as stated previously since the Hall "knows" that Moiraine and Suian are on very poor terms then "know" that if Moiraine changed the vow in anyway they would expect Suian to reprimand her.  But that is just my interpretation of the scene.  Clearly we are not on the same page on this but that is the lovely thing about ointerpretations/opinions. 

 

I am hoping to see some of the fallout from this scene next season.

And in the Hall of the Tower as it is depicted in the books, "she must be embarassed, so it doesn't matter that we can't hear what she said" would never have been acceptable.  The Hall was extremely protective of their position, and no one was more suspicious of what an Aes Sedai was trying to get away with than another Aes Sedai.

Anything that happened in the Hall was witnessed completely by everyone in the Hall.  No Sitter would ever allow someone to mumble through a public oath there, no matter how ashamed they might be.  On more than one occasion, we see Sitters admonishing people to speak clearly when addressing them there.  Nor would Sitters (who already jealously defend their balance of power against the Amyrlin) simply trust the Amyrlin to tell them what was said.  

Sitters demand to know everything that is going on.  This doesn't fit them at all.

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

As for the 2nd point her plan was the same as it was in the Book, throw a Ta'varen at the problem and hope it goes away. 

Except that she explicitly stated in the show that anyone that went to the Eye who wasn't the Dragon would die.  It wasn't Ta'Veren she needed, it was the Dragon, and no one else.

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Not much of a plan but in both the books and the show the threat at the Eye comes up without warning and they head off with similar amounts of preparations.

In the book, she found out about the threat to the Eye while they were all on the road, and changed her plans on the spur of the moment to go there rather that to Tar Valon.  The only preparations she could make were those that were possible in a single night in Caemlyn.

In the show, she is told about the Eye by the Amyrlin, and would have had all the resources of the White Tower at the Amyrlin's command for her preparations.  There might have been some need for secrecy, but the resources would have nevertheless been orders of magnitude greater there.

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

I cannot say fully why a scene like this wasn't planned but Lan and the Boys were not together all that long.  The vast majority of the time they were only slightly ahead of their pursuers which did not leave much time for practicing.  The pursuit seemed much more dogged and shorter than the one in the books.  They were then separated and didn't reunite until after a month.  Likely longer than they were originally traveling together.  After reuniting they take a day/day and a half through the waygate and we are at the finale.

According to the timeline on Amazon's site for the show, Lan and the boys were together at least as long before separating as in EotW.  Also, the show has Lan say they lost the Shadowspawn at Taren Ferry, and didn't pick them up again until the day they ran for Shadar Logoth.  Plenty of opportunity to show the same training as in the book.

11 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

To answer the OP question - Morraine did not have a plan because I highly doubt that the showrunners/writers even considered it...

6 hours ago, Skipp said:

Her plan was much the same as if the Dragon were male and no different from the book.  Get them to the Whitetower for safe keeping. 

 

AS for taking them to the blight that wasn't even on her radar until they got back to the tower.  Even then the idea of a female Dragon would likely have gone over much better with the tower and they might have been able to send a full circle of 13 to aid.

The OP's question was not about her plan at the beginning, it was specifically about her plan after they left Tar Valon for the Eye.  At which time it was absolutely "on her radar" since it was the entire point of going.  And at which time she still (according to the show) thought the Dragon could be Egwene or Nynaeve.

2 hours ago, Nik said:

There are plenty of possible interpretations for the scene that don't involve a secret agenda to make the Wheel of Time gay at the detriment of storytelling (or whatever it is you think is going on here)

The agenda isn't remotely "secret."  Rafe has stated it publicly on many occasions.  Including when discussing the changes he made to Moiraine and Siuan's relationship.

He has also stated that he intended this specific scene to present the equivalent of marriage vows between them.

The question is not his intent (which is clear), but whether it harms the story.  If he intends the White Tower - and its Hall - to be in any way as politically astute as in the books, the scene is harms that impression.

If the Sitters didn't need to hear the Oath clearly, there was no need for it to be spoken in front of them.  Siuan could have just told them it had been done.  Speaking it in the Hall, while doing so inaudibly and changing the words, would never have been accepted.

Yes, Rafe might have them believe it was inaudible because of shame.  Which doesn't change anything.  Shame is an inherent aspect of any public punishment in the Tower.  It is not something that would ever be accepted as a "dodge."

If Rafe intends Aes Sedai to look politically foolish or naive - mission accomplished.

I'm one of those people who re-read everything whenever a new book came out - or more precisely, whenever I bought a new book.  I wasn't always able to keep up, and a couple of times ended up more than one book behind.  But whenever that happened, I still re-read everthing up to that point.

I actually got the first two books when they came out in trade paperback format (prior to their hardcover releases).  So my first read through of EotW and tGH happened in 1990.

I actually found that the story held up very well, and that I caught more missed details every time.

Also, I think being derivative of earlier works was intentional.  Since their world connected to many other worlds, and cycled through its own myths repeatedly with every new turning of the Wheel.  And the echoed details came from pretty much every major source of myths you can think of.  From LotR, yes.  But also from Arthurian legend, Dune, Japanese and Native American myths, even just actual history.

The more times through, the more references picked up.

For example - most of the Aiel names for their food and textiles are derived directly from real world names.  Algode = cotton.  Zemai = maize.  T'mat = tomato.  Oosquai = whiskey.  Pecara = pecan (genus Carya).  Even the Gara lizard is probably something like Gila Monster.  Or possibly an Alligator Lizard (genus Elgaria).

8 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

It is extra confusing, because it's clear that, in the books, the Aes Sedai were expected to not show emotion, but they definitely HAD emotions and knew the other Aes Sedai had emotions and were watching very carefully all the time for the subtle signs by which other Aes Sedai revealed the emotions they were trying to hide.

And it's not even so much that they were expected not to show their emotions so much as that they were always supposed to be aware of them and their effects.  Like Bene Gesserit or Vulcans.

The "complete calm" necessary in testing for the Shawl wasn't emotionlessness, it was control.

And the Aes Sedai who are described as the most emotionally weak in the books are the ones who struggle the most at that control.

---

My issue with this scene isn't the emotional content, and what the "mumbling" might mean.  It's the fact that the only real reason to have such a public oath is for everyone present to hear it.  To me, it's not believable that in those circumstances the witnesses would ignore not being able to make out the words being spoken.  Particularly the witnesses that forced the punishment in the first place.

In the books, a public punishment in the Tower is supposed to be public.  Both visibly and audibly.  As is a public oath.  And this is supposed to be both.

12 hours ago, Pembie said:

Yeah I’m not as mad about the books as everyone true but I wanted to know the real story line in my opinion people like local and Morraine should have had a bigger role and nyevene or Ian should have died in the last battle 

Yeah, given that you weren't as big of a fan of the books as many here, you will almost certainly be less upset at the differences.

Also, the show is much easier to follow (for the most part) than the books.

20 hours ago, Pembie said:

Should I watch the show now?

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

You might as well.  Some people here loved it, others hated it.  But it is something you will need to judge for yourself.

I generally tell people who have read the books that they should watch the show only if they already have Amazon Prime.  Or if there's something else on it that they want to see.

It's not worth it to pay for a subscription just for this.

But other people on this site would almost certainly disagree with me, and recommend jumping in for no other reason.

In @Pembie's case, the underwhelmed response to the books just might mean the show looks brilliant in comparison.

Trippy, huh?

These are the kinds of things you talk about when you're high.  And I haven't gotten high since before this book came out.

Congratulations!

8 hours ago, Nik said:

That's an interesting point. I would think that the soul always survives the body in WoT cosmology, since it's what get eventually reborn. Except normal people's souls go into whatever the waiting place is until they get spun out again, whereas heroes of the horn's souls go into TAR. And in that specific case Rand's soul went straight into Moridin's body. My memories of aMoL are fuzzy, had the horn already been sounded when Birgitte died? I.e. did her soul go into TAR and then get called by the horn, or did it go straight into active hero of the horn mode?

Yes, it had already been sounded.

She lost her head, then instantly reappeared and killed the guy that had just killed her, and was still standing over her dead body.  No delay at all.

Here's the twist on the question about bonds being to souls, and souls being immortal: If that's the case, why does ANY death break the Warder bond?  What's different about Birgitte's soul?

Aside from the obvious, of course.

Or does the obvious difference explain it sufficiently?  Does every soul that doesn't belong to a Hero go through a "cold reboot" when it dies, while a Hero's soul stays active?  We know the Heroes retain their memories when they die, and go to Tel'aran'rhiod.  Is that enough of a difference to explain it?

And some other funky implications: Once the Heroes go back after being called by the Horn, is Birgitte still bonded to Elayne?  If so, will Birgitte in the World of Dreams experience the "severed bond" trauma when Elayne eventually dies in the real world?

What was done with Lan's bond was interesting, but not the most interesting of the various Warder bonds in the books.

Even more interesting were two that figured prominently at the end of aMoL.  Both were bonds held by Elayne Trakand.

Aes Sedai are universally described as suffering when Warders they are bonded to die.  She had two different people she was bonded to that died in close succession near the end of the story, yet appparently didn't feel any ill effects from either of them.  Now, it's true that in both cases the souls of her "warders" survived, even though their bodies died.  One of them right in front of her while protecting her life.

Which raises an interesting question: we know that channeling is tied to the soul, rather then the body (i.e. Balthamel/Halima).  Does this mean that the Warder bond is also tied to the soul rather than the body?

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I think it is better to consider that she did not arrange to pass the bond - she stated to Lan that she had altered the bond so that if it broke (at the time she assumed this would be on her death) it would then automatically pass to Myrelle (and apparently also kick in the near compulsion of the bond requiring him to go to Myrelle at once) - passing the bond (in a normal way) was what happened when Myrelle later passed the bond to Nynaeve which did not cause the trauma of a broken bond.  

 

When Lan arrives at Myrelle it is clearly stated that he was in the death seeking state following a broken bond - he was just too skilled to have been killed by any of the bandits etc he fought while going to Myrelle.

That's not actually what she said.

This the exchange as it appears in the book (tGH, ch22 "Watchers"):

For the hundredth time -- or so it seemed to her -- she considered the words to use.  "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another."  He stared at her, silent.  "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately.  I do not want you to be surprised by it."

"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily.  "Never once have you used my bond to compel me.  I thought you more than disapproved of that."

She doesn't say she altered the bond, she says she arranged ahead of time to pass it to another (identified a few lines later as Myrelle) who would then pass it again to someone else (never identified here).  At the time, she certainly expects the "anything" that would happen to her to be her death.  But there's no reason to believe she couldn't trigger the passing intentionally, since the arrangements had already been made.

Also, he doesn't act the way he does getting to Myrelle because of the trauma of a broken bond.  He does so because the arrangements Moiraine made included compulsion through the bond.  He literally HAD TO go to her.  It wasn't "near compulsion," it was fully that.

The changes that Egwene sees in him once she uncovers everything aren't because of that trauma.  They are because of emotional responses any normal human would have had to the events.  He wanted to help Rand after the events at the docks, but was compelled to leave immediately.  He wanted to mourn, but wasn't allowed to.  He was angry that he had no choice in either matter.

He wasn't traumatized by a broken bond because the bond was never broken.  Not saying that what he did experience wasn't emotionally traumatic, but it wasn't that.

2 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The simplest explanation is that Moiraine deliberately severed the bond in a way that made it appear she had died (so that Lan would be forced to go to Myrelle and think her dead). 

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

If she severed the bond then why would Lan be driven to seek out Myrelle?  The bond was passed.

And an intentional release of the bond - even if it isn't then passed to another - would prevent the berserker rage from happening.

In tGH, Moiraine tells Lan she made these arrangements ahead of time.  She arranged to pass his bond, rather than simply release him.  Not to save him from the suicidal madness, but to prevent him from wasting his talents on his private war against the Shadow.

A private war he was engaged in when they met, and which he gave up to become her Warder.

But yes, she did all of this in such a way as to make everyone - not just Lan - believe she had died.  And it was intentional.  She didn't want anyone trying to rescue her until Thom and Mat did.  Not Lan, not Rand, not the Supergirls.  Not anyone.

37 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Wow!  I probably haven't cracked that book in 15 years.  It must be time to go through it again...

 

Thanks!

My pleasure.

And this reminded me that I need to replace my copy.  I lent it to someone about the time MoL came out.  I've moved twice since then, and literally just now realized I never got it back.

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Ah, I did not remember about Hawkwing’s attempted invasion. That would certainly be a huge clue as to size and capability. Where was that reference?

It was in the Big White Book - he sent one of his daughters to invade Shara with a fleet a year after sending a son to Seanchan.  I got the reference from the WOT fan Wiki.