8 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

I'm not sure if it's conscious control, though he certainly seems to believe it.  I wonder if instead, (a) at that particular point in the turning of the Wheel, (b) with the Pattern under the greatest threat of unravelling, and (c) with a ta'veren comfortable in his skin (tool accepting his destiny), and (d) for a limited amount of time only, a sort of über-ta'verenness comes into being?  I.e. anyone not an active darkfriend would find him impossible to resist?

No, it was definitely conscious control.

The very first scene as he descends from Dragonmount shows it.  He makes the apples grow in the orchard, and knows they're coming before the farmer even sees them.  Later, he is described as concentrating when he makes the tree grow outside of the Council tent where all the commanders have gathered.

Clearly he's doing it consciously and intentionally.

I do believe it was a matter of him finally accepting his position at this turning of the Wheel.  But I also believe it stays with him after everything is done. 

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

That's all he saw from where he was. Not necessarily all that there was.  He was very far away.

While true, it's irrelevant.

We have been told repeatedly throughout the books that nothing survived from the AOL except as fragments, unless it was power-wrought, or protected within a stedding.  The Seals, the Ways, the Choedan Kal, Whitebridge (maybe), Cuendillar, certain weapons - you get the idea.  Given that fact, there is no reason to believe an actual city survived mostly intact until direct concrete evidence is seen.  And "remnants of shattered buildings" seen at too great a distance to make out doesn't provide it.

Sorry, but "he couldn't tell, so it could have been" is going off nothing but imagination.

1 hour ago, Pembie said:

Thanks I seem to get more confused as the books go on Login is finally back and Edith has sent additional sedi to kill men who channel I think that is what is happening not a easy series to follow I don’t think 

I've had friends who got in the weeds with the series the way you seem to have.

What's worked for them is to go back over the books prior to where you are.  Skimming can help, but actually re-reading back from the beginning is best.

It may seem like a lot of work, but once you get confused, it may be impossible to ever get back on track.

2 hours ago, Rhettles said:

Loial does say "they are a living thing, in some way, the Ways, and all living things have parasites".  And I think its Moiraine  who says she thinks that Machin Shin might be something "born of the corruption itself".   So healed or cleansed, it's hard to say. The majority of the current yellow ajah are a fairly unimaginative lot for the most part, but they do seem to be inspired by Nynaeve and the Ashaman, so maybe they will come up with something.  I'd have thought the Brown and Green Ajahs might have come together to sort out the Ways long since, but maybe we  can chalk that up to 3000 years of Black Ajah stirring white tower dissent.  

It's a nice thought to imagine Loial enjoying the new Age with Erith and a baby ogier exploring the world by travelling through a sunlit Ways,  planting and singing to fruit trees as he goes.  ?

A baby Ogier.

Now that's something the books never describe.  Love it.

?

48 minutes ago, Pembie said:

I’m on winters heart now and I was surprised and confused over Eyane  and Adventist being half sisters or lesbian I had no ideaEyane was so that come out of nowhere for me 

 

There seems to be a few plots that just seem to pop up without any leads also I think Robert Jordon didn’t know what to do with a lot of his characters Perrain Lolia Thom Ian which is quite disappointing 

 

It's not that Elayne and Aviendha are lesbians, it's that they've decided that if they have to share Rand, they need to do it the way the Aiel do - as adopted first sisters.  It's not out of the blue, but actually based deeply in Aiel culture.

In some cases, such a relationship would start with the women (whether romantic or not) then add the man.  Like Bain and Chiad might eventually add Gaul.  In others, it starts with one man and one woman, then add the other woman. 

1 hour ago, Rhettles said:

The taint left residual evil in the form of black thorns on the brains of the ashaman which had to be healed by Nynaeve after the cleansing and Rand said something like "Saidin is clean, but are we?".  

Which would certainly be a related, but different, possibility.

If the the corruption of the Ways isn't the Dark One's taint directly, but rather the equivalent of the madness it causes, cleansing one simply simply stops the other from getting worse.

I could see something like a group of Yellows working with the Ogier and their Talisman of Growing to actually be needed to "heal" the Ways."  Just as will pretty clearly happen to Heal all the Asha'man.

And it would be consistent with their description as being in some way "alive."

Something has to be alive in order to be Healed.

1) There is strong implication that while the Dark One may not be able to directly touch the world when his prison is intact, he can still influence humans who are kindred spirits.  This is essentially what started the War of Power in the first place.  Mierin was a researcher who was either deceived by the DO or decided on her own to drill into his prison.  So his influence obviously came into play even though most had forgotten he existed.

It's possible that it takes so long to forget him that the Second and Third Ages are the only ones where he gets the opportunity to act directly.

2) The Dragon is the Creator's champion.  In ages where channeling is effective, the champion would be a powerful channeler.  In ages where there is no channeling, he would be powerful at whatever takes its place.  Perhaps in the Fifth Age he's a nuclear physicist?

Rand's "reality warping" abilities are a function of him being ta'veren.  It's just that most TV can't consciously control it.  Hawkwing had learned to make use of it, but didn't have conscious control.  Rand basically figured out how during his revelation at the top of Dragonmount.  After inklings that he had already gathered (see his threat to Cadsuane).

LTT was also TV, but may not have ever learned that control.  Just like Rand learned to access the True Power, but LTT apparently never did.

They are related because both were TV.  But I don't think it's any more directly related than that.

3) Nothing in the lore requires the DO to never win, but I think RJ made pretty clear that he never had.

On 1/6/2022 at 10:13 AM, Deviations said:

So interesting how different people read different things (in no way am I saying anyone's take is incorrect).  I've had them as middle-English with bel tine, something like a maypole, goodwife, thatched roofs, etc.  I think that was prompted and reinforced by the book's cover art.

I think they would have been culturally like one thing, but like another in appearance.

So Celtic or Middle-English in culture, but "dark of hair and eye," with decidedly NOT pale skin.  I think Mediterranean or South Indian would definitely fit.

6 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

It was so far up the mountain and so far away, we can't say exactly how much was up there. It wasn't shown.  It is absolutely within the range of individual interpretation how much city there was there and how much city there could be surviving anyplace in the entire world.  I understand that for your interpretation of how the breaking worked, it would be impossible for any city to be somewhat intact at the end of the Breaking.  But that is not the only interpretation of how 'broken' the world was.  Another reader is free to interpret differently.

Except that what we ARE told of it is inconsistent with an entire surviving city.

"He could have sworn it was the remnants of shattered buildings, shining gray against the darker mountain, and stranger still, what appeared to be a dock made of the same material."

That isn't "somewhat intact."  It's remnants, and even the remnants are shattered.  It's the most intact relic of the AOL we hear of throughout the books that wasn't power-wrought.

And even it is far less intact than than the image mentioned.

If it's true that the taint in the Ways is the same as the taint on Saidin, it should be the case that cleansing Saidin also cleansed the Ways.  The damage it caused would still be there, of course.  But the Talisman of Growing should now have the ability to heal it.

However, since Fain supposedly found a kinship with Machin Shin, the corruption there may be just as different from the taint on Saidin as Mashadar is.  Which grew from the evil that men created, not from the Dark One.  And we know that (at least where Fain was involved) Mashadar survived the cleansing and the end of Shadar Logoth.

Given the timing of when the Ways became corrupted, I would go with the first option.  The corruption of the Ways was removed at the same time Saidin was cleansed.  But because of the difference in how time flows there, the result may take a while to be seen.

Inverted weaves also explain why none of them can see through her disguise as Keille Shaogi and tell what she actually looks like.  They can't even see that it is a disguise.

Interestingly enough, the same is apparently not true about her voice.  Or at least, she didn't bother disguising it.

I think it revolves mostly on the difference between the light and dark halves of the yin/yang concept in the eastern religions and the good/evil dichotomy in the western.  In eastern religions, dark is not evil as understood in the west.  Rather, it is the necessary complement to the light, and it is the tension between them that allows life/movement/etc. to exist.  Or in the WOT universe, to drive the Wheel.

I believe the adage is "There is no light without shadow.  There is no life without death."

In this kind of cosmology, the Shadow is the dark half - not the opposite of the Light, not its enemy.  But rather the other end of the battery that powers the universe.  And a battery with only one end does nothing.

The Dark One became the embodiment of true evil when he deceived himself about that role, and sought to stop the Wheel.  Rand's visions at that point ultimately gave him the insight that the Dark One had lacked.  Namely, that darkness is necessary for light to exist.  But darkness and evil aren't the same thing.

Regarding the ruins seen by Rand and Asmodean - it wasn't an entire city.  It was a few buildings and a dock.

I really don't think that can be described as an entire city surviving the Breaking.  Even tossed up onto a mountain.

On 12/27/2021 at 10:37 AM, WhiteVeils said:

There could be a tiny pocket of non-utterly-broken spot somewhere remote.  For example, if these particular buildings are made of Cuendillar.  Lews Therrin's devastation of his home and family didn't even destroy the tapestries.  It all depends on how that particular spot was broken.

The problem with judging the extent of devastation to the world from the Breaking by that scene is that the Breaking had literally just started by then. 

As is explained in a scene with Loial, the sanctuary offered by the stedding to any male channeler extended the Breaking - by a lot.  But without it, the world may not have survived at all.

Given the implications of that, the idea that any city would have survived intact enough to leave those ruins seems highly improbable.  To say the least.

Incidentally, If Timothee Chalamet works as Mat, how about Tuon being Zendaya?

I think it would actually work better in this case than the *other.*

Also, I always pictured Morena Baccarin in this, just as Berelain.

So I'm at something of a disadvantage coming up with current actors for these roles, as I've imagined them as actors who were the right ages when the books came out.

For example: I always pictured Thom Merillin as Sean Connery.  Like from Highlander.  Which would have made Thom somewhere in his 50s.  Today, I would go with Sam Elliot.

Likewise, I always pictured Elayne as Jennie Garth - which would have made her 18 when the books started.

Some others:

Padan Fain - Brad Dourif

Bayle Domon - John Rhys-Davies

And I do love RJ's idea of Michelle Pfeiffer as Morgase.

As far as current actors, I'd have to think about it more.

On 12/19/2021 at 7:42 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Because the show establishes that Min's visions are actual glimpses of future events.

Which doesn't answer the question.

In the book, the exact same terms are used symbolically to depict the struggle against the Shadow.  On what basis do you say the show requires those terms to be taken literally - that is, literal sparks being literally swallowed by literal darkness - rather than symbolically.  "Actual glimpses of futute events" in no way implies the images aren't symbols of what those future events mean.

Please note: your own statement that people are literal sparks appears to refute your point.

People are not literal sparks.

Why couldn't a white flame not be a literal flame?  Or a baby not be a literal baby?

8 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

^ In the TV series,, the Two Rivers four don't symbolically represent sparks fighting against darkness; they are the sparks fighting against the darkness, which is why Min's vision physically showed the four of them with actual sparks and darkness surrounding them.

Except that they aren't literal sparks.  They're people.

Even interpreting it that way means it's figurative.

In the books, this specific viewing is figurative.  Given the identical language in the show, on what basis is it supposed to be literal?

A few things mentioned by others but need some further exploration.

1: Moridin is Ishamael resurrected into another body.

2: The physical connection between Rand and Moridin didn't exist yet at Falme, so injuring one didn't directly affect the other.  The connection was made at Shadar Logoth when both used Balefire against Mashadar.  And, like the Gostbusters did, "crossed the streams."

3: Specifically, the connection was made because while Rand was channeling Saidin, Moridin was using the True Power.  The connection eventually allowed Rand to use the True Power himself, once he figured out what it was.

4: At the end, when they switched bodies, Rand didn't light his pipe with either the One Power or the True Power, since his body had been burned out in the process.  He used his unique ability as uber-ta'veren to directly alter the pattern.  It's an ability the story alluded to when threatening Cadsuane, as well as when he made plants grow.

5: As Moiraine explains when telling the story of Aridhol/Shadar Logoth, Mashadar is evil that men made, rather than what came from Shai'tan.

One thing to clarify about the nature of evil in Jordan's world - Light and Shadow are used in the same way yin and yang are in Asian philosophies.  As both opposite and complementary forces.  Most dichotomies (like male and female, or fire and ice) can be represented by them without moralizing. 

"Good" and "Evil" are value judgments applied to them by humans who seek simplistic explanations.  But aren't necessarily direct parallels.

Unlike good and evil, the forces that drive the universe require both - and the tension between them - to have movement and life.

Given the descriptions of the two, it certainly seems like Jordan wanted everyone to make that connection.  But it can't be, since Cain was still in TAR after Olver was already born.

He could have played with the differences in time between the waking and dream worlds to make it work, but he apparently said definitively that it wasn't true.  Sanderson has also said that he knows (based on RJ's notes), and that it isn't Olver.  But he hasn't said who Cain was reborn as.

If it's like other similar "mysteries" you could probably figure it out.  But I haven't heard of anyone doing so.

What about a dome of Air with the Banner of Light floating above the top, wreathed in smoke and lightning.  Surrounded by crowds of fighters pressing toward it?

You wouldn't need specific people's faces in that case, just the groups.

None of the Heroes of the Horn have just a single name.  Each has a new name when spun out into the living world, but each is recognized when they appear according to whatever name the witnesses associate with them.  As we see at Falme, other names are remembered when looking at some of them.

"But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were.  Michael instead of Mikel.  Patrick instead of Paedrig.  Oscar instead of Otarin."

Any of those are just as much their names as any other.

For the Dragon, Lews Therin Telamon is one name.  Rand al'Thor is another.  We never hear of any others, but we know they exist(ed).

14 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

The show may have combined Dragon and Amaresu to a single soul

Which would be another kind of pointless change from the books.

Amaresu is seen at Falme, when the Dragon has already been reborn.  They can't be the same soul.

On 12/15/2021 at 12:43 PM, AdamA said:

If we're going to subject cosmologies with reincarnation to logical scrutiny, seemingly souls have to be genderless. Since biological sex is a random coin flip with proportions that aren't totally constant from one generation to the next (close to 50/50, but never exactly), at least a few would need to flip.

 

Consider that population is not always growing, especially given the drastic dropoff from the population that earth would have been able to support from Age of Legends to post breaking. That's going from post-scarcity probably at least 20 billion population to a medieval world that supports maybe a few million. That means the overwhelming majority of souls don't reincarnate at all just because there aren't enough bodies available, at least not until thousands of years later when the world recovers. So how would they decide who is worthy? If you're forcing souls to only ever reincarnate into bodies with the same biological sex as their first body, you've effectively implemented a gender-based quota that can't possibly be fair. Maybe that's what the Randworld creator in fact did, but that is jacked up.

Which is, of course, one of the primary criticisms of reincarnation as reality in any world.

On 12/15/2021 at 5:42 AM, Caesar804 said:

The quote you're looking for is like half of the books. When the two forsaken from eotw are reincarnated, one is reincarnated into a woman's body, yet he can still touch saidin. Magic is a function of gender which is a function of the soul.

Though I would call that more of a resurrection than a reincarnation.

An existing (but killed) soul is placed into an existing adult body.  Rather than being reborn.