2 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Which is the point being made.   Always convenient to have a fall guy - which in this case was going to be Liandrin or Moiraine.   And as we saw it was schemed between Moiraine & Siuan to let Moiraine take the exile and still allow her free rein to continue.   Therefore it is a moot point whether not Liandrin or Moiraine or anyone had mentioned any other names - the target was going to be on one back.    

It's not the outcome in the show of Liandrin's "charges" that is the problem.  It's the fact that anyone in the Hall gave them the time of day.  Much less treat them like an inescapable trap.

The charges were patently BS on their face, and in the Tower RJ describes, would have gotten Liandrin disciplined for even bringing them up in the Hall.

According to Tower rules, the Sister who is given command has complete responsibility.  Liandrin (as a Red) had command over Logain's capture and treatment.  Also according to Tower rules, any Sister's business is her own, unless specifically ordered to do something.  Trying to blame Moiraine for her own mission's errors would have earned Liandrin a public penance.  Sticking her nose into Moiraine's private affairs would possibly have earned her a private one.

Pretending an individual Blue (not a Sitter or the head of an Ajah) was responsible for a failure that is EXPLICITLY the job of the Red (locating male channelers and False Dragons), should have gotten her laughed out of the Hall by every single member - including her own Sitters.

5 hours ago, SingleMort said:

My problem with the herron being used only as a means to identify Tam is that they show Tam's face immediately after so we would already know it was Tam without the sword. If they had decided to use a different younger actor for Tam in the flashback your point would have made sense but they didn't so showing the sword is a waste of time. 

But it does seem as if that's the only thing Rafe is using it for - as if it's Tam's personal sigil, rather than something with an important meaning.  We know Lan sees the mark, and unlike the books, never mentions to Rand that it has any significance at all.

Which might be considered a gap in the story if we weren't also missing every bit of him training the Two Rivers folk how to use the weapons that most of them no longer have.

In the books, Rand had the sword, Mat had the bow, and Perrin had the axe - the one made by a character that doesn't exist.  He starts off testing them with the bow, and is surprised how well all three of them do.  In the show, no one but Rand had anything more than a belt knife.  And Rand had both the sword and the bow.  And Lan never even tries to train any of them.

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

Blademaster is a status you only get by killing another blademaster, iirc

 

And only a blademaster has the right to a heronmark sword. 

I think I remembered reading somewhere in the books that it could also be granted by the judgment of a group of blademaster peers.  Killing one in combat is just the one way that's never questioned.

Something like that must be the case, or there could never be more of them than exist at any arbitrary time.  Or to quote another franchise, "There Can Be Only One."

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

If this were true why would everyone meeting Rand assume he is a true blade master. I know Morgase(??) and GB have that conversation in Caemlyn, but still implied it would be unusual

But what Bryne says in that conversation is that he's too young to have earned it.  Even though literally everyone in the room (including him) immediately sees Rand as a potential deadly threat as soon as they hear Elaida "whisper" it.

And we do know of examples where other characters claimed not to believe he had any right to it, and at least pretended to threaten to take it from him.

Whether they were just bluffing because they were actually afraid of him, we don't know.

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

In fact when he indeed meet another heron mark the guy is all "oh let's see what does it takes to earn the heron mark on this side of the ocean"

And he shows him.  Thus earning the heron - finally.

10 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Well I feel foolish. It helps when I read with my eyes open.

 

I caught that first point you made about the male sa'angreal, but COMPLETELY misread how the female sa'angreal sentence was written. You right.

No problem.

I've had similar confusion about some things that were only cleared up on the second (or fourth or fifth) re-read.

On 1/20/2022 at 3:27 AM, VooDooNut said:

"The male figure could link him to a huge replica of itself, the most powerful male sa’angreal ever made, even if he were on the other side of the Aryth Ocean from it. It had only been finished after the Dark One’s prison was resealed—How do I know that?—and hidden before any of the male Aes Sedai going mad could find it. The female figure could do the same for a woman, joining her to the female equivalent of the great statue he hoped was still almost completely buried in Cairhien. With that much power… Moiraine had said death could not be Healed."

I read that differently.

He's not saying that the male sa'angreal is actually on the other side of the Aryth Ocean (which neither of them are - Tremalking is actually just off the coast) but that the access key could connect him to it even if it was.

He's also not saying that the female figure links to the statue buried in Cairhien, he's saying it links to its female equivalent (wherever it is).  At the time, he probably doesn't know where it is.  We only find out for sure that he knows it is on Tremalking just before the Cleansing, when he explains his plans to Cadsuane.

He probably learned its location either from Herid Fel, or from Min's research.  The only way he would have known its location as early as the passage in question is if the Finns told him about it when he asked his three questions in Tear.

13 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Even as aged up as they are from the books I wouldn't place them as that old though, and she still seems awfully young to be on any advisory council. I'd say the same of the boys too.

It's almost as if Rafe isn't using the initiation to be for the Women's Circle, but simply as her coming of age.  The episode never even mentions the Women's Circle - just as it never mentions the Village Council.  Or the Mayor.  And it implies that Marin is the innkeeper, not Bran.

But then, it isn't Emond's Field anymore in the show.  It's a town called "Two Rivers."  Which, even though it's geographically more inaccessible being in the actual mountains, is somehow not isolated from the outside world.

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

It was a major story arc for Rand's deveopment.  I highly doubt they will cut it.  They need it to further the storyline.  

Pretty much everything in the Eye of the World that was a major story arc for Rand's development has been cut.  Or replaced with something else entirely.

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

If the did keep her alive, they'd like use an actress with similar looks to poray them.  Remember, being still made them younger in appeance.  The characters could be portrayed by younger, lesser known actors.

But that was based on the "ageless" effect - which doesn't exist in the show.

Thanks.

Given those estimates, I won't be selling them.

But It's nice to have some idea what I've got.

?

1 hour ago, bryce0110 said:

That's likely all it is lol. I think we're the ones overthinking, but it's fun to speculate if there's meaning behind some of these things!

And I wouldn't be surprised if that's all it is.

We keep trying to attribute genius-level foreshadowing to Rafe in order to justify his changes.  But we may be giving him too much benefit in doing so.

7 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

That's an interesting idea! I don't know if it's present on other Aes Sedai such as Alanna, but if it is that might be what it is.

 

I saw some people saying it could've been a way for Moiraine to show respect towards Kerene after her death, but I'm not sure.

That would be interesting as well.

Kind of like in Dune, where people at a Fremen funeral each took something from the deceased in order to honor them.  In this case, it would mean she didn't have it until after the burial in the snow.

33 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Except when Thom explained the the DO was the one to corrupt the One Power.  Or when LPP stated her fear that the DO would corrupt the One power.

 

The only real indication that men corrupt the OP is Liandrin's speech in episode one, but there is certainly no possible way that her personal bias is showing.

 

While I have no proof one way or another if they will include the cleansing or not I don't think there is anything in season one that would provide evidence of them not doing it.

 

Personally I am hoping we get more details of the One Power while the girls are training next season.  Possibly interlaced with Rand trying to figure it out on his own.

I sincerely hope that they do.

Because as it sits right now there's no real indication to non-readers that they are two different things.  And they had a couple of easy opportunities to explain it to the viewers - both in the early episode when Moiraine starts teaching Egwene and in the last episode when she refuses to do the same for Rand - opportunities they completely missed.

In each case, it would have taken no more than a line or two of dialog.  Lines that were in the book, but removed from the show.  With Egwene, it was the explanation that it was male channelers, not Aes Sedai in general, who broke the world.  And it happened because the power they alone touched was tainted and drove them mad ("They were insane, not evil").  With Rand, it was her "can a bird teach a fish to fly?" adage.

Both those statements made it clear that they were different sources, and it was the male source that was the problem, not the men themselves or the Power in general.  And they're gone from the show.

16 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

Kerene also had a similar ear piece but it was on her lower earlobe, whereas Moiraine's was more around the back.

Good catch!

I'll definitely have to make a note on my re-watch of who has one and who doesn't.

Who knows - pure speculation, but could it have something to do with their Warder bond?  Maybe Moiraine taking it off is how Moiraine masked the bond? 

On 1/19/2022 at 8:21 PM, Raal Gurniss said:

But the showrunners have been utterly dismissive of criticism, so what chance of improvement? They even admitted they made the show this way to intentionally make many fans of the book unhappy.

 

Season two was well underway even before season one was unleashed so that just confirms it is going to be done in the same manner.

One of the things that kills me about this is that while they acknowledge doing things that will alienate book fans, they include things in the show that only book fans will understand without explanation.  And then they don't explain them.

Just one example is something that most book fans really loved - the Blood Snow scene.  A lot of details were included that book fans will recognize on sight, or which were excluded but readers will know without them being shown, but non-readers won't have a clue about.

Her spears.

Her veil (though they might understand this from the Aielman Thom and Mat buried in Breen Spring).

Who her attackers are, and what the insignia on their uniforms mean.

More importantly - when and where the battle took place.  And why.

Even now, after the season is over, has the Aiel War ever been mentioned?  Or did I just miss it?

On 1/20/2022 at 1:58 PM, VooDooNut said:

Given that they expanded more on Moiraine and Siuan's relationship, I'd bet Mat's best horse that the Siuan/Gareth relationship it cut from the show. I'm fine with that. Such a silly relationship for most of the books.

And almost certainly the Moiraine/Thom relationship as well.

Since Mat (and Thom) has no longer seen the Tower of Ghenjei from Domon's boat, I suspect that Moiraine never ends up there.  I would predict that Siuan is killed rather than just deposed, and everything she does after that in the books is actually done by Moiraine.  Who is Stilled (if she hasn't already been) at the same time.

Which means:

No "unrecognizable" Siuan (since there's no agelessness to be wiped away by Stilling).

No broken oath.

No pursuit of oathbreakers by Bryne. 

Min's viewing of Moiraine's downfall is caused by whoever deposes Siuan ("The Amyrlin in full regalia").

Moiraine then goes to Salidar and spreads the stories about Logain, instead of Siuan doing it.

Or if they do want to bring in Bryne as the Little Tower's general, he follows Min and Logaine with Moiraine, rather than with Siuan and Leane. 

This allows them to cut out one entire story arc, and combine two others into one.  While eliminating two romantic relationships that have always been unpopular with book fans. 

If you're trying to streamline, that's a helluva job in one go.

7 hours ago, EmreY said:

An angreal maybe?

It's possible.

But if it is, her use of it is extremely subtle.  Since you never see it.

9 hours ago, Andra said:

I only noticed it on her, and only because of the closeup of the side of her head during the Oath scene.  It could be something that's quite common.  But there's been no mention of what it is.

4 hours ago, Elgee said:

Someone's going to have to check all those scenes now and let us know ... lol ... I've cancelled my Amazon subscription.

I was planning on running through it again next week.  It's one of the things I'll have to look for when I do.

I have a list.  ?

7 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Ditto.

 

Edit: or, maybe, what if they gave Machin Shin the honours?

 

Cheaper than the pyrotechnics required for Shadar Logoth, and it would take care of this issue too: https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110261-the-ways-in-the-fourth-age/ as there wouldn't be any...

 

Given the way they've avoided saying that Saidin and Saidar are different things (so far, the only mention of Saidin is in the LTT scene - and only in the spoken Old Tongue, not the English captions) I wouldn't be surprised if there is no Cleansing.  There has been a strong implication that men "corrupt" the Power, not the other way around.

On 1/19/2022 at 11:42 AM, Andra said:

It's almost like they're supposed to be braces of some kind due to an old injury.

19 hours ago, Elgee said:

Some Aes Sedai would have Healed that, surely.

In the book world, no.  Once an injury heals, it can't be Healed.  It's why she couldn't fix Thom's limp.

In the show?  Who knows?  Rafe seems to want pretty much anything to be Healable.

On 1/19/2022 at 11:42 AM, Andra said:

The gold plating on her ear(s?). 

19 hours ago, Elgee said:

I'm reasonably sure I saw at least 1 other Aes Sedai with that? Or is old age befuddling my memory?

It's possible.  I only noticed it on her, and only because of the closeup of the side of her head during the Oath scene.  It could be something that's quite common.  But there's been no mention of what it is.

It's an interesting site.

I don't see any listing for the couple I'd be interested to find out more about.

I have first edition, first printing trade paperback editions of Eye of the World and Great Hunt.  Bought them both new - Feb. 1990 and Nov. 1990.

I've seen widely varied valuations on them in the past, and I'd be interested to see what you might know about them.

Speaking of Shadar Logoth - I haven't seen anyone mention this, but ...

Where did the trollocs go?

In both the book and the show, the party went into SL as a last-ditch measure to get away from the trollocs, knowing they wouldn't enter willingly.  In the book, the trollocs and the fades driving them followed them in - which is why they left.  The trollocs continued chasing the boys (and Egwene) after they left until they were separated by the river.  They even continued along the shore until the boat left them behind.  Which is why Lan, Moiranie and Nynaeve didn't have to deal with them.

In the show, not only didn't the trollocs follow them in, they weren't outside when they left after no more than a few hours.  And no one seemed to be worried they might be.

Some might have lost the pursuit by using the river, but Lan and Moiraine rode out on horseback.  And Nynaeve would have had to go right through them to follow Moiraine's "tell."

And at that point, as far as anyone knew the trollocs had come on foot all the way from the Blight.  Tracking any or all of four people that were still nearby.

3 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Can Rand see this stuff like he sees the taint? If so, it makes me think even more so that in the WOT show the taint on Saidin and the darkness of Shadar Logath are the same. Makes sense in a lot of ways to combine these two evils for a television-only audience.

 

edit: oh, he does mention when talking to Moiraine that he can see it, so that's a given, but I still wonder if it's a representation of the taint. This also explains why Moiraine is safe from the effects maybe? Saidar repels the taint? Just theorizing here.

Everyone who was in Shadar Logoth could see Mashadar, and no one (besides the audience) who wasn't a male channeler could see the Saidin stuff.  So they can't be the same thing.  I doubt Rand was the only one who could see what was being drawn out of Mat, either.

14 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I'm betting it's a hearing aid, so she can listen in to other Aes Sedai's thoughts.

So it's her personal Eavesdropping Ter'angreal.

Well, since we haven't seen her using her kesiera that way yet ...

?

A couple of things I noticed regarding Moiraine's costume that aren't explained, but apparently have some kind of significance.

1: Her leather "bicycle gloves."  I thought they might be intended as some kind of riding gloves, but she wears them even when she isn't riding.  It's almost like they're supposed to be braces of some kind due to an old injury.

2: The gold plating on her ear(s?).  I only noticed it on her right ear, but she could have it on both.  Odd, to say the least.

28 minutes ago, Skipp said:

For this scene I would say to look at it from a non book readers perspective.  They have seen Moiraine interact with the EF5.  She says she can't lie and then Egwene calls her out on that.  Moiraine has a nice quip about it but does the audience actually trust Moiraine? 

 

By having this scene the audience now knows for a fact that the Oaths are magically binding and can start to trust Moiraine a bit.  This will become a shock when they find out about the Black Ajah. 

 

Now they certainly could have shown this in a different way,  a flashback to Moiraine gaining the shawl, showing some other Accepted being raised.  I think they chose to do it this way for practical reasons such as not having to cast any other actors for a flashback or what have you.  Also it works in showing more of Moiraine's and Suians relationship, which some people seem to dislike but it was a big hit for me and my nonreader friends.

 

It also works to keep Moiraine away from TV and from what Sarah Nakamura has said there is a reason they chose to have Moiraine swear this oath so I will look forward to see why.  Now for several posters here on the forum this is an unacceptable answer because they don't like other changes that have been made or foreshadowing they have included but I can't help in those cases.

Except that the audience had already been told that the Oaths were magically binding.  If they didn't believe it before, this won't change that.  Especially since we saw Moiraine and Siuan planning the whole thing out the night before. 

If you want to show something that visually drives home what the Oath Rod does, then do it like the book does.  There are specific physical effects described when someone who swears an oath on it feels the oath "sinking into their bones" that would have been very powerful on screen.  And which wouldn't have required any additional CGI, just good acting.  But all we see is tears that were already there.

I honestly don't see how this increases trust in her at all.

If someone in the non-reader audience saw her as the protagonist, they already trusted her.  If they mistrusted her for her deviousness and secrecy, they still do.

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I would like to back up a bit.   Here are my assessments of the skirmishes/battles so far.  I am ranking them on realistic tactics, realistic effects and a much more subjective feel.  I am not including the blood snow cold open because that is more single combat.  5 is excellent on a 1-5 scale

 

EF Raid - 4.  This was a good depiction of a raid where they got to the target completely undetected.  I downgraded it for showing the women as the only villagers who could rally any sort of offense.  The men did nothing and just got slaughtered.  Old Blood not so much.  

 

Logain's Freedom - 3.   I am feeling generous on this one.  It probably should be a two. The Aes Sedai and Warders don't have a decently large scouted perimeter to give adequate warning.  They don't use their horses for battle.  They don't have any sort of defensive positions picked out where they can be protected and sweep the approaches to where they are holding Logain.  Assuming in the beginning the oaths constrain them they don't use the one power to knock down the trees to make what we call a shin tangle to slow down and break up the attackers.  There never was much of an "army" shown.  They didn't have much of a plan either except charge into the teeth of the defense.  A night raid would have been much more effective.

 

Tarwins Gap - 0.  This was a Monte Python battle from start to finish.  First of all with the Rafeland configuration of the Gap nobody that understands anything about war is going to have a defensive wall with holes (arrow slits) all through it.  You want a wall that is as tall and smooth and thick as possible.  To see an example of the wall that would have been constructed in any reasonable universe check out the Deeping Wall in TLOTR.   A properly constructed and defended wall would have been impregnable unless breached by channelers.  Remember in war in Randland nobody uses gunpowder or explosives.  

 

That's bad enough but then they have a trolloc beating through an arrow slit with a hammer from a ladder.  Even assuming the stupidity of arrow slits  in your defensive wall nobody is going to beat through the wall with a hand hammer even a 20 pounder.  Of course nobody has wall sweeps to pull the ladders  over.  There are no large stones on the top of the wall to drop on the ladders.  There are no cisterns of oil to fill buckets, light them on fire and drop them on the ladders.

 

The whole scene with the channelers was also stupid.  In a realistic world they would have been on the wall at the Gap keeping the trollocs off the wall and rolling rock and earth off the sides of the gap like RJ had Rand do.    This is what happens when police procedural writers or wherever they came from write stories about medieval battles.  In Rafe land there was no gap.  Why not?  Because it should have been plugged with a hundred foot high wall with crenelations and an arrow shield protecting the defenders at the top of the wall.   Even with the wall they had, with the proper defenses, they should have been able to hold that wall until their food ran out. 

 

Last but not least there is no cavalry.  Yikes.   I appreciate this thread but I don't look forward to any battles if Tarwin's Gap is any indication of the care going into them in the future.  

 

I would downgrade the Two Rivers (not "EF" - he changed the name) attack further for three reasons.  

1: The trollocs spent far too much of their time after starting the attack simply standing around looking.  In book land, a trolloc with its blood up would never do anything like that.

2: The Myrddraal stays out of the fighting entirely.  In the book, we hear that Lan and Moiraine tried multiple times to kill it, and failed.  "It had the Dark One's own luck."  You wouldn't keep your most devastating weapon out of the fighting - even if it was their "commander."

3: It wasn't completely undetected.  Lan and Moiraine see them coming down the mountainside far enough ahead of time that Lan tells her they have to leave.  And the slaughtered sheep he finds warns them something is coming even before that.  She decides they have to stick around to protect the "five-headed dragon", but they never warn anyone about what's coming.  How Rafe thought that was remotely reasonable is beyond me.

In the book it was completely undetected, and she blames herself for not noticing the signs beforehand.  In the show they literally saw it coming a mile away.

And regarding Tarwin's Gap - one additional thing.  They were firing crossbows, not longbows.  The arrowslits would have had a different design.  And even before getting bashed with a hammer, the openings were far too large.