1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

If the did keep her alive, they'd like use an actress with similar looks to poray them.  Remember, being still made them younger in appeance.  The characters could be portrayed by younger, lesser known actors.

But that was based on the "ageless" effect - which doesn't exist in the show.

Thanks.

Given those estimates, I won't be selling them.

But It's nice to have some idea what I've got.

?

1 hour ago, bryce0110 said:

That's likely all it is lol. I think we're the ones overthinking, but it's fun to speculate if there's meaning behind some of these things!

And I wouldn't be surprised if that's all it is.

We keep trying to attribute genius-level foreshadowing to Rafe in order to justify his changes.  But we may be giving him too much benefit in doing so.

7 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

That's an interesting idea! I don't know if it's present on other Aes Sedai such as Alanna, but if it is that might be what it is.

 

I saw some people saying it could've been a way for Moiraine to show respect towards Kerene after her death, but I'm not sure.

That would be interesting as well.

Kind of like in Dune, where people at a Fremen funeral each took something from the deceased in order to honor them.  In this case, it would mean she didn't have it until after the burial in the snow.

33 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Except when Thom explained the the DO was the one to corrupt the One Power.  Or when LPP stated her fear that the DO would corrupt the One power.

 

The only real indication that men corrupt the OP is Liandrin's speech in episode one, but there is certainly no possible way that her personal bias is showing.

 

While I have no proof one way or another if they will include the cleansing or not I don't think there is anything in season one that would provide evidence of them not doing it.

 

Personally I am hoping we get more details of the One Power while the girls are training next season.  Possibly interlaced with Rand trying to figure it out on his own.

I sincerely hope that they do.

Because as it sits right now there's no real indication to non-readers that they are two different things.  And they had a couple of easy opportunities to explain it to the viewers - both in the early episode when Moiraine starts teaching Egwene and in the last episode when she refuses to do the same for Rand - opportunities they completely missed.

In each case, it would have taken no more than a line or two of dialog.  Lines that were in the book, but removed from the show.  With Egwene, it was the explanation that it was male channelers, not Aes Sedai in general, who broke the world.  And it happened because the power they alone touched was tainted and drove them mad ("They were insane, not evil").  With Rand, it was her "can a bird teach a fish to fly?" adage.

Both those statements made it clear that they were different sources, and it was the male source that was the problem, not the men themselves or the Power in general.  And they're gone from the show.

16 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

Kerene also had a similar ear piece but it was on her lower earlobe, whereas Moiraine's was more around the back.

Good catch!

I'll definitely have to make a note on my re-watch of who has one and who doesn't.

Who knows - pure speculation, but could it have something to do with their Warder bond?  Maybe Moiraine taking it off is how Moiraine masked the bond? 

On 1/19/2022 at 8:21 PM, Raal Gurniss said:

But the showrunners have been utterly dismissive of criticism, so what chance of improvement? They even admitted they made the show this way to intentionally make many fans of the book unhappy.

 

Season two was well underway even before season one was unleashed so that just confirms it is going to be done in the same manner.

One of the things that kills me about this is that while they acknowledge doing things that will alienate book fans, they include things in the show that only book fans will understand without explanation.  And then they don't explain them.

Just one example is something that most book fans really loved - the Blood Snow scene.  A lot of details were included that book fans will recognize on sight, or which were excluded but readers will know without them being shown, but non-readers won't have a clue about.

Her spears.

Her veil (though they might understand this from the Aielman Thom and Mat buried in Breen Spring).

Who her attackers are, and what the insignia on their uniforms mean.

More importantly - when and where the battle took place.  And why.

Even now, after the season is over, has the Aiel War ever been mentioned?  Or did I just miss it?

On 1/20/2022 at 1:58 PM, VooDooNut said:

Given that they expanded more on Moiraine and Siuan's relationship, I'd bet Mat's best horse that the Siuan/Gareth relationship it cut from the show. I'm fine with that. Such a silly relationship for most of the books.

And almost certainly the Moiraine/Thom relationship as well.

Since Mat (and Thom) has no longer seen the Tower of Ghenjei from Domon's boat, I suspect that Moiraine never ends up there.  I would predict that Siuan is killed rather than just deposed, and everything she does after that in the books is actually done by Moiraine.  Who is Stilled (if she hasn't already been) at the same time.

Which means:

No "unrecognizable" Siuan (since there's no agelessness to be wiped away by Stilling).

No broken oath.

No pursuit of oathbreakers by Bryne. 

Min's viewing of Moiraine's downfall is caused by whoever deposes Siuan ("The Amyrlin in full regalia").

Moiraine then goes to Salidar and spreads the stories about Logain, instead of Siuan doing it.

Or if they do want to bring in Bryne as the Little Tower's general, he follows Min and Logaine with Moiraine, rather than with Siuan and Leane. 

This allows them to cut out one entire story arc, and combine two others into one.  While eliminating two romantic relationships that have always been unpopular with book fans. 

If you're trying to streamline, that's a helluva job in one go.

7 hours ago, EmreY said:

An angreal maybe?

It's possible.

But if it is, her use of it is extremely subtle.  Since you never see it.

9 hours ago, Andra said:

I only noticed it on her, and only because of the closeup of the side of her head during the Oath scene.  It could be something that's quite common.  But there's been no mention of what it is.

4 hours ago, Elgee said:

Someone's going to have to check all those scenes now and let us know ... lol ... I've cancelled my Amazon subscription.

I was planning on running through it again next week.  It's one of the things I'll have to look for when I do.

I have a list.  ?

7 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Ditto.

 

Edit: or, maybe, what if they gave Machin Shin the honours?

 

Cheaper than the pyrotechnics required for Shadar Logoth, and it would take care of this issue too: https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110261-the-ways-in-the-fourth-age/ as there wouldn't be any...

 

Given the way they've avoided saying that Saidin and Saidar are different things (so far, the only mention of Saidin is in the LTT scene - and only in the spoken Old Tongue, not the English captions) I wouldn't be surprised if there is no Cleansing.  There has been a strong implication that men "corrupt" the Power, not the other way around.

On 1/19/2022 at 11:42 AM, Andra said:

It's almost like they're supposed to be braces of some kind due to an old injury.

19 hours ago, Elgee said:

Some Aes Sedai would have Healed that, surely.

In the book world, no.  Once an injury heals, it can't be Healed.  It's why she couldn't fix Thom's limp.

In the show?  Who knows?  Rafe seems to want pretty much anything to be Healable.

On 1/19/2022 at 11:42 AM, Andra said:

The gold plating on her ear(s?). 

19 hours ago, Elgee said:

I'm reasonably sure I saw at least 1 other Aes Sedai with that? Or is old age befuddling my memory?

It's possible.  I only noticed it on her, and only because of the closeup of the side of her head during the Oath scene.  It could be something that's quite common.  But there's been no mention of what it is.

It's an interesting site.

I don't see any listing for the couple I'd be interested to find out more about.

I have first edition, first printing trade paperback editions of Eye of the World and Great Hunt.  Bought them both new - Feb. 1990 and Nov. 1990.

I've seen widely varied valuations on them in the past, and I'd be interested to see what you might know about them.

Speaking of Shadar Logoth - I haven't seen anyone mention this, but ...

Where did the trollocs go?

In both the book and the show, the party went into SL as a last-ditch measure to get away from the trollocs, knowing they wouldn't enter willingly.  In the book, the trollocs and the fades driving them followed them in - which is why they left.  The trollocs continued chasing the boys (and Egwene) after they left until they were separated by the river.  They even continued along the shore until the boat left them behind.  Which is why Lan, Moiranie and Nynaeve didn't have to deal with them.

In the show, not only didn't the trollocs follow them in, they weren't outside when they left after no more than a few hours.  And no one seemed to be worried they might be.

Some might have lost the pursuit by using the river, but Lan and Moiraine rode out on horseback.  And Nynaeve would have had to go right through them to follow Moiraine's "tell."

And at that point, as far as anyone knew the trollocs had come on foot all the way from the Blight.  Tracking any or all of four people that were still nearby.

3 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Can Rand see this stuff like he sees the taint? If so, it makes me think even more so that in the WOT show the taint on Saidin and the darkness of Shadar Logath are the same. Makes sense in a lot of ways to combine these two evils for a television-only audience.

 

edit: oh, he does mention when talking to Moiraine that he can see it, so that's a given, but I still wonder if it's a representation of the taint. This also explains why Moiraine is safe from the effects maybe? Saidar repels the taint? Just theorizing here.

Everyone who was in Shadar Logoth could see Mashadar, and no one (besides the audience) who wasn't a male channeler could see the Saidin stuff.  So they can't be the same thing.  I doubt Rand was the only one who could see what was being drawn out of Mat, either.

14 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I'm betting it's a hearing aid, so she can listen in to other Aes Sedai's thoughts.

So it's her personal Eavesdropping Ter'angreal.

Well, since we haven't seen her using her kesiera that way yet ...

?

A couple of things I noticed regarding Moiraine's costume that aren't explained, but apparently have some kind of significance.

1: Her leather "bicycle gloves."  I thought they might be intended as some kind of riding gloves, but she wears them even when she isn't riding.  It's almost like they're supposed to be braces of some kind due to an old injury.

2: The gold plating on her ear(s?).  I only noticed it on her right ear, but she could have it on both.  Odd, to say the least.

28 minutes ago, Skipp said:

For this scene I would say to look at it from a non book readers perspective.  They have seen Moiraine interact with the EF5.  She says she can't lie and then Egwene calls her out on that.  Moiraine has a nice quip about it but does the audience actually trust Moiraine? 

 

By having this scene the audience now knows for a fact that the Oaths are magically binding and can start to trust Moiraine a bit.  This will become a shock when they find out about the Black Ajah. 

 

Now they certainly could have shown this in a different way,  a flashback to Moiraine gaining the shawl, showing some other Accepted being raised.  I think they chose to do it this way for practical reasons such as not having to cast any other actors for a flashback or what have you.  Also it works in showing more of Moiraine's and Suians relationship, which some people seem to dislike but it was a big hit for me and my nonreader friends.

 

It also works to keep Moiraine away from TV and from what Sarah Nakamura has said there is a reason they chose to have Moiraine swear this oath so I will look forward to see why.  Now for several posters here on the forum this is an unacceptable answer because they don't like other changes that have been made or foreshadowing they have included but I can't help in those cases.

Except that the audience had already been told that the Oaths were magically binding.  If they didn't believe it before, this won't change that.  Especially since we saw Moiraine and Siuan planning the whole thing out the night before. 

If you want to show something that visually drives home what the Oath Rod does, then do it like the book does.  There are specific physical effects described when someone who swears an oath on it feels the oath "sinking into their bones" that would have been very powerful on screen.  And which wouldn't have required any additional CGI, just good acting.  But all we see is tears that were already there.

I honestly don't see how this increases trust in her at all.

If someone in the non-reader audience saw her as the protagonist, they already trusted her.  If they mistrusted her for her deviousness and secrecy, they still do.

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I would like to back up a bit.   Here are my assessments of the skirmishes/battles so far.  I am ranking them on realistic tactics, realistic effects and a much more subjective feel.  I am not including the blood snow cold open because that is more single combat.  5 is excellent on a 1-5 scale

 

EF Raid - 4.  This was a good depiction of a raid where they got to the target completely undetected.  I downgraded it for showing the women as the only villagers who could rally any sort of offense.  The men did nothing and just got slaughtered.  Old Blood not so much.  

 

Logain's Freedom - 3.   I am feeling generous on this one.  It probably should be a two. The Aes Sedai and Warders don't have a decently large scouted perimeter to give adequate warning.  They don't use their horses for battle.  They don't have any sort of defensive positions picked out where they can be protected and sweep the approaches to where they are holding Logain.  Assuming in the beginning the oaths constrain them they don't use the one power to knock down the trees to make what we call a shin tangle to slow down and break up the attackers.  There never was much of an "army" shown.  They didn't have much of a plan either except charge into the teeth of the defense.  A night raid would have been much more effective.

 

Tarwins Gap - 0.  This was a Monte Python battle from start to finish.  First of all with the Rafeland configuration of the Gap nobody that understands anything about war is going to have a defensive wall with holes (arrow slits) all through it.  You want a wall that is as tall and smooth and thick as possible.  To see an example of the wall that would have been constructed in any reasonable universe check out the Deeping Wall in TLOTR.   A properly constructed and defended wall would have been impregnable unless breached by channelers.  Remember in war in Randland nobody uses gunpowder or explosives.  

 

That's bad enough but then they have a trolloc beating through an arrow slit with a hammer from a ladder.  Even assuming the stupidity of arrow slits  in your defensive wall nobody is going to beat through the wall with a hand hammer even a 20 pounder.  Of course nobody has wall sweeps to pull the ladders  over.  There are no large stones on the top of the wall to drop on the ladders.  There are no cisterns of oil to fill buckets, light them on fire and drop them on the ladders.

 

The whole scene with the channelers was also stupid.  In a realistic world they would have been on the wall at the Gap keeping the trollocs off the wall and rolling rock and earth off the sides of the gap like RJ had Rand do.    This is what happens when police procedural writers or wherever they came from write stories about medieval battles.  In Rafe land there was no gap.  Why not?  Because it should have been plugged with a hundred foot high wall with crenelations and an arrow shield protecting the defenders at the top of the wall.   Even with the wall they had, with the proper defenses, they should have been able to hold that wall until their food ran out. 

 

Last but not least there is no cavalry.  Yikes.   I appreciate this thread but I don't look forward to any battles if Tarwin's Gap is any indication of the care going into them in the future.  

 

I would downgrade the Two Rivers (not "EF" - he changed the name) attack further for three reasons.  

1: The trollocs spent far too much of their time after starting the attack simply standing around looking.  In book land, a trolloc with its blood up would never do anything like that.

2: The Myrddraal stays out of the fighting entirely.  In the book, we hear that Lan and Moiraine tried multiple times to kill it, and failed.  "It had the Dark One's own luck."  You wouldn't keep your most devastating weapon out of the fighting - even if it was their "commander."

3: It wasn't completely undetected.  Lan and Moiraine see them coming down the mountainside far enough ahead of time that Lan tells her they have to leave.  And the slaughtered sheep he finds warns them something is coming even before that.  She decides they have to stick around to protect the "five-headed dragon", but they never warn anyone about what's coming.  How Rafe thought that was remotely reasonable is beyond me.

In the book it was completely undetected, and she blames herself for not noticing the signs beforehand.  In the show they literally saw it coming a mile away.

And regarding Tarwin's Gap - one additional thing.  They were firing crossbows, not longbows.  The arrowslits would have had a different design.  And even before getting bashed with a hammer, the openings were far too large.

53 minutes ago, Deviations said:

This intimated that Moraine is the only blue out in the field so to speak.  Ridiculous.

 

 

It might have made a tiny amount of sense if Moiraine were the head of the Ajah, or at least a Sitter.

We know that neither of those things is true.

On a different topic, but one I noticed for the first time watching the scene ...

What's with the gold plating on Moiraine's ear?

19 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I get that, but I still think it's very different to demand an oath of complete obedience versus an oath to never return unless the Amyrlin tells to. The latter gives much more freedom.

The oath Moiraine swore does substantially more than that.  And substantially less.

She swears "to honor and obey Siuan Sanche, daughter of the river etc. etc. etc. and never return until she calls me home."

It's effectively two different oaths.  The first is to honor and obey Siuan (not the Amyrlin Seat), and the second is to never return "home" (not to the White Tower) until she calls.

This means that while it is an oath of obedience to Siuan, it doesn't transfer to whoever might replace her as Amyrlin.  Nor does it end if Siuan is deposed. 

It also means that "home" is where she's exiled from - presumably meaning wherever Siuan is.

48 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

To me, the most interesting part of the Dumai's Wells oaths of fealty, is that they don't use the oath rod to secure these oaths, but rely on the past oaths of the Aes Sedai to make the oaths to Rand binding.

Which is one of the reasons the Oath Rod shouldn't be necessary for something like this.  If it's impossible for someone to lie, they can't speak an oath they don't mean.  Speaking the oath on the rod is simply gilding the lily.

52 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Moiraine's oath to Siuan was quite different than what Elaida demanded from others

True, but it wasn't the specific wording of the oath that made Elaida's demands so shocking to other Aes Sedai.  It was the mere fact that she required an oath of obedience.

Given this scene, there isn't really anything shocking left in what Elaida does.  Offensive and insulting, maybe.  But in the books, it's a visceral shock.  Now, not so much.

It was definitely unnecessary and introduced a wrinkle that it didn't have to, which will need to be ironed out in the future (if those future events actually happen).  Besides - why require an oath of obedience and exile her at the same time?

The books tell us more than once that Aes Sedai don't swear fealty to an individual Amyrlin.  Which is what makes both Dumai's Wells and Elaida's BS so shocking to other sisters later when they hear about them.  And makes the use of the Rod by Pevara's little group something dangerous to them if found out.

It's also kind of strange that no one else seemed to notice Moiraine changing the words before she swore, since paying attention to specific wording is something every Aes Sedai learns.

When told to swear, the wording is to obey "the Amyrlin Seat."  When she repeats the oath, she says "Siuan Sanche."  And nobody even blinks.

18 hours ago, Terry05 said:

I seem to have a memory of Ishy not wanting the Forsaken to kill Rand - I'm starting my reread of the series as soon as I finish the last Book of Babel. But yeah you'd think the easiest way for the DO to win would be to remove his greatest threat before he becomes a threat

18 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I suppose there's a good explanation for it. I just don't remember what it is.

For much of the series, the DO wanted to turn Rand if he could.  But leave him alive until then in order to increase the chaos in the world.  Prior to being resurrected, Ishamael wanted that too, as well as to survive himself.

It's only after becoming Moridin that he started saying he wanted to die permanently.

Which means that at this early stage of the game, he wouldn't have really wanted either himself or Rand to actually die.

But fooling Rand into thinking he'd killed him - or more accurately into thinking he'd killed the DO?  Absolutely.  That fits the endings of all three of the first books perfectly.

Until book 4, everyone thought Ba'alzamon was the DO.  They look to be going that way with the show, just not using the name.  Moiraine believed the man at the Eye was actually the DO.  We'll apparently see next season if she still thinks that.