2 hours ago, AdamA said:

I'm pretty sure Uno was stabbed with a Myrddraal sword, but that doesn't help, since that is also supposed to be auto-death sentence. Also, the Lord Yakota guy that also got killed by a Myrddraal sword was supposed to be Ingtar until the actor took a different role and they changed his character and recast Ingtar to not appear until season two. That implies to me they were also originally going to have Ingtar survive the stabbing.

 

A bunch of puzzling decisions, but I guess it means Myrddraal blades don't have the same effect in show universe. Arguably, that's not a big deal, as honestly, the whole "tempered with a human soul" thing was always a kind of silly evil that sounded like a 7 year-old came up with the idea (on brand for the often childish Dark One, but still silly).

 

Ogier seemingly have to come from a different world, to the extent Randland is just future Earth and we don't have anything on current Earth that seems on path to evolving into an Ogier in the next 6,000 years or so, and they're not constructs. Much like the Seanchan mythical beasts, they had to have originated elsewhere.

From the books, it makes it sound like Thakandar blades, while seriously deadly, don't kill quite as quickly as the dagger.

Tam was cut with Trolloc's sword rather than a Myrddraal's, but it was still apparently a Thakandar blade.  A nick would have killed him eventually, but not so fast that they couldn't get him to Moiraine.

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Book of Translation sounds like more than that. And RJ confirmed this

That was my impression from reading it.  It's just that the text doesn't make it clear enough to be certain.

On 1/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

Because, to your point around Judas, in service to his Lord, he commits the only unforgivable Mortal sin due to his guilt resulting from one of the most important actions of the new testament, and is damned to hell for all eternity as a reward for ensuring Jesus makes it to the cross.  That is the reward he receives for his service from his beloved Creator.

 

 

 

Which I believe is one of the reasons Christians reject it.  They've painted themselves into a corner.

Interestingly enough, nothing in the Biblical canon says suicide is an "unforgivable sin."  Jesus makes clear that the only thing that's unforgivable is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."  That claim about suicide doesn't come about until Augustine.

And Judaism (which both Judas and Jesus would have practiced) doesn't really have the concept.  In Judaism, forgiveness comes from the victim who has been wronged, rather than from God.  So the only thing "unforgivable" would be the one that prevents the victim from offering forgiveness.  In other words, murder.  But if the victim survives long enough to forgive their murderer, the sin is forgiven.

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Good point

 

Ogier are from a different world, though

True.  Sort of.

At least we are led to believe so.

The books don't ever tell us where they're originally from, but they do tell us it's a place they could go back to and leave the world of humans permanently.  Maybe it's more like all gathering in one big Stedding, then closing it off like the Ways are.

We do know that they didn't used to be tied to the Stedding, and the Seanchan Gardeners don't seem to be tied to them now.  So perhaps that "different world" is just on a continent away from Randland.

4 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Kind of amusing, but this is in fact one of the objections of Satanists; if he fulfills the same role in Christianity that the DO does in Randland, then he is both absolutely necessary to the adoption of free will, and performing the task he was created to fulfill. So if that's the case, can he truly be considered evil?

Also amusing is that his interpretation in Christianity isn't all that similar to his interpretation in Judaism.  Which is supposedly where Christianity got him from.  In Judaism, he's more like a prosecutor in a trial.  With various prophets being defense attorneys, and God being the judge.  Or possibly with God being the defense attorney, and some unidentified watchers being the jury. The difference isn't really clear.

An interesting take on the concept within Christianity (and therefore naturally rejected by most Christian authorities) is the apocryphal Gospel of Judas.

The idea being that if Jesus actually came here to be a sacrifice, then the person who enabled the sacrifice to happen was not only NOT the worst of the evil, he was actually the best of the good.  Jesus trusted him with the most difficult task of all the Disciples.

A task that was the equivalent of the Hebrew High Priests that carried out the sacrifices that the people needed for their salvation.

Another version in popular fiction was Snape killing Dumbledore.

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

Do you have evidence for this? 

The dagger's influence is implied as part of the explanation of how he can command Shadowspawn (including Myrddraal) to go against their orders.  I believe it's mentioned in at least one point that a Myrddraal is actually afraid of it.

4 hours ago, SingleMort said:

Think it's pretty obvious at this point that the rules of the dagger are going to be very different. What I don't understand is why they even needed to? With a few simple tweaks you can have the exact same scene but keep the dagger the same as it was in the books. 

 

For example instead of using a dagger Fain could have just used a regular sword to do his stabbings, and when Perrin comes in and sees him standing over Loial he could pull out the dagger from his belt and say something like "Your friend's lucky I didn't use this one. The last person I used it on didn't even look human by the end of it. A quick death" he grinned unpleasantly "But definitely not a painless one. Maybe I'll give you a demonstration one day"

 

There! Now we've established what the dagger can do and that Fain has it but hasn't used it on Loial. As for why Fain wouldn't have used it you could argue because they were fighting Shieneran warriors and an Ogier he would probably need a weapon with a longer reach. Otherwise he might be cut down before he got close enough to use it. Alternatively you could say he deliberately left Loial alive for the same blah blah reasons he left Perrin alive. I'm not saying this is perfect and would fix all the problems just saying by just adding a couple extra lines of dialogue would fix most of the problems with the dagger

 

  Hide contents

 and spare us another miraculous resurrection scene that it sounds like they are going to do with Loial.

 

Giving Rafe the benefit of a level of cleverness I'm not sure he deserves, perhaps the result will be similar to Tolkien and the Tom Bombadil scene with the ring. 

Unlike the way everyone else wil be affected by it, will Ogier be in some way "immune?"  Obviously an Ogier can be killed with a sharp pointy object, but maybe the evil of Shadar Logoth doesn't do anything else to them?  Because it's an evil made by humans, it only affects humans?

That could be an interesting story, but it's a completely different story.

Because in the universe of the books, it absolutely affects more than humans.

I always pictured it more as if the seven hills of Rome each had a tower on its crest.

Not spread out along the country's border (the way wachtowers would be) but still not all bunched right next to each other, either.  Spaced out similarly to the "topless towers" of Cairhien.

I always viewed this as a measure of LTT's madness, or at least of his comparative lucidity at any given moment.

At his least lucid, he thinks of Ilyena without remembering she's dead.

A bit more lucid, and he remembers that she's dead, but not that he killed her.

A bit more than that (his most common state throughout the books) he remembers that he killed her and hates himself for it, but doesn't remember the rest of his family.

More lucid still, and we get this bit from Lord of Chaos, ch.42 "The Black Tower":

I will kill him, and then them. They must serve him. It is plain; they must serve him.

Go away, Rand shouted back silently. You are nothing but a voice! Stretching toward the Source.

Oh, Light, I killed them all. All that I loved. If I kill him, it will be well, though. I can make it up, if I kill him finally. No, nothing can make up, but I must kill him anyway. Kill them all. I must. I must.

No! Rand screamed inside his head. You’re dead, Lews Therin. I am alive, burn you, and you are dead! You are dead!

Somewhere around that level is when LTT is at his most dangerous to Rand, because it's when he starts reacting to the world around him, and trying to seize saidin for himself.

Also, please note: Though Lews Therin in his madness may usually ignore his children, the lore doesn't (though the lore never knows their names).  Those children are the reason he's called "Kinslayer" and not "Wifekiller" or something similar.

And given how long channelers lived during the AoL, I don't find this all that surprising.  His wife would have been a part of his life for much longer than his children.  So a patchy memory would focus on her more than it did them.

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

It gives Fain power over fades, but they won't show that progression either.  You're right.  It doesn't matter.  None of it does.  They can tell whatever story they want.  They should tell the story that's in their hearts.  The story that sings to them.  Just don't pretend it's Jordan's story.  To be honest, I really wish Rafe would have written a story from scratch and told that.  It may have been great but we'll never know.

But also the part of the story that they can't skip and even pretend it's the same story - what happens when he cuts Rand with it.

Every bit of what happens at that time is critical to the rest of the story following it.

The story arcs for Cadsuane, Darlin, the understanding of the differences between Aes Sedai and Asha'man Healing, even Cleansing Saidin.  All of them are dependent on what the dagger does.

On 12/26/2021 at 10:45 AM, Yojimbo said:

Mat slashes a DF with it during their travels, doesn't he?   And that person dies quickly and horribly.  

 

And as I stated before, they can and will change anything if it serves their purposes, no matter how many ripples it will cause further on in the story.   Jordan's Rules on how things work are only Suggestions to the writers of the show.  

The first character we see killed by the dagger is Turak's top so'jhin Huon.  By Mat.

Earlier he held it against a darkfriend's neck to keep her from killing Rand with her knife that boiled a bucket of water.  A darkfriend who we meet again later and learn her name (Shiane/Mili Skane).  But he leaves her alive.

The first person we see Fain kill with it is the Accepted in the basement of the Tower when he steals it back and talks to Alviarin.

Both those victims die fast and hard.

11 hours ago, EmreY said:

Hmmm.  My interest is piqued by a different matter.  Is that a gold or silver mark? 

If it's the same coin he has used before (which would make sense if he says it's "getting to be my lucky coin") it's gold.

From chapter 22 "Out of the Stone" of the same book (before using the portal stone):

"Oh, burn me.  If you're trying to decide ..."  Taking both horses' reins in one hand, he dug a coin from his pocket, a gold Tar Valon mark, and sighed.  "It would be the same coin, wouldn't it."  He rolled the coin across the backs of his fingers.  "I'm ... lucky sometimes, Rand.  Let my luck choose.  Head, the one that points to your right; flame, the other.  What do you say?"

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

It's true, it is imagination. But you here are trying to prove a negative.  It seems to be you are saying, to my understanding, that it is completely unreasonable for anybody's imagination to possibly believe that the outer physical structure, if broken and overgrown, of a city from the Age of Legends could possibly survive in a semi-recognizable form into the time of the book series, and that anyone who imagines that one could and depicts it as a way of showing that this is a post-apocalyptic world is making a grave continuity error.

I am saying that it is, technically, possible for someone to imagine that such a place exists in a remote and uninhabited area.  We have individual buildings and docks survive, with the possibility of more, we have artifacts exist. We have a substance that can be generated through the One Power in fairly large quantities (like river chains) that is immune to the One Power and physical destruction in the first place. We have ways for channelers to cause destruction that would cause a city to be abandoned without ever harming the structure of it itself. We can have cities physically moved to places where they can't be found again.

 

I would say the only way you can prove your case is to say that the entire surface was slagged in such a way that no buildings stood, which is certainly wrong, and that level of destruction would probably eliminate life entirely.

No, what I'm saying is that we are told in the books - repeatedly - that nothing like a complete city survived the Breaking intact enough to be recognized as such.  And that the single example seen at a distance in the Jangai Pass provides nothing to refute that repeated statement.

Please note: This example doesn't go so far as to say that even individual buildings survived.  It says (perhaps) shattered remnants of buildings remain.  So unless you are speculating that an entire city might have been made of Cuendillar, and this one obviously wasn't, there's no reason to doubt that what we've been repeatedly told is true.

My "case" is that what the books have said about the subject is true, unless the books provide evidence that it isn't.  And this isn't that.

Also please note: I'm talking about what the books say on the subject, not what the show (where the images come from) says on it.

The show is welcome to make up its own version of the events, as it has done about many things.  But the books don't support that version.

I remember back when I had just finished the first book, and having the same kinds of questions and ideas.  All I can say without spoiling pretty much everything to come is "the best laid plans ..."

Regarding Tar Valon - there are some of the party that HAVE to go there reasonably soon.  For training, or for Healing.  Those people do so.  Reasonably soon. 

Others don't have to, but end up there anyway, even if only briefly.  Eventually. 

And still others don't ever go there at all.

But I will say something specific about one of your ideas, because I don't think it is actually a spoiler - if you just think through it:  There's no such thing as a "pet wolf."  To Perrin, wolves are equivalent to other people, not pets.

To put it simply, they knew who his parents were because the circumstances leading to his birth were unique in the history of the Aiel.  And because an Aes Sedai was directly implicated in it.

No wetlander had ever been allowed to join an Aiel society, much less Far Dareis Mai.  The only reason it happened was because of her story of being told she had to go by Gitara Moroso.  Everything else about her made her famous among them.  Up to and including how and where she gave birth.

It's possible that, given the mention of Gitara Sedai, the Wise Ones recognized her as being part of the fulfillment of their prophecy at the time.  It's certain that they realized it after the fact.

So when they went into the Wetlands looking for him, they knew exactly what they were looking for.

And it didn't hurt that the ones who had known his parents recognized his resemblence to them.

And it's important to realize that the Wise Ones in every clan talk to each other all the time - in Dreams and otherwise - even if their clans are fighting.  There is much more sharing of information throughout the Aiel than in any other culture in the WOT universe.

37 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 And this discussion is one of the reasons I love Fantasy. ?  Thank you, OP and others. ? 

And I definitely agree with you on this.

Though I would clarify *GOOD* Fantasy.

Thorough world-building, with internally consistent rules, makes it all worthwhile.

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I'm heavy and if I decide to walk on ice that's formed on a lake, the ice might well crack.

 

Yes, I would be the reason why that's happened, but it wouldn't be because I willed it to.  I think the same sort of thing applied in every instance Rand turned up, the most funny being when Rand turns up at the White Tower.  At that point, what's necessary for the Wheel is for the DR to get everyone on board - or at least to meet at Merrilor - not argue.  So Egwene can speak (not because she knows Rand from before) but because some sort of interaction is necessary.  However, everyone else's tongues are glued to their mouths.  And that's also why I think that Rand has no problem with being shielded; if the shield became an impediment to the Wheel's mission, the channellers following him around would trip, have heart attacks, sneeze, etc. ? And by that point Rand has accepted what needs to happen; the Wheel will sweep anything non-DO-related out of his way.

 

This of course begs the question of why everyone doesn't agree with Rand immediately when he unveils his three point plan at Merrilor.  Well, Rand would certainly want them to agree, and if he were consciously altering reality, they would have.  But what is being discussed - as IIRC Egwene points out - is the course of the next age.  And, at that point, Rand has no ta'veren-relevance to that.  Except maybe for the peace bit, and that Moiraine points out is a symmetry of the pattern.

 

As for the trees at Merrilor, maybe the Wheel wanted to say hi to its Ogier guests?  But IIR the scene correctly, Egwene reacts to their springing up (it becomes darker in the tent, there are sounds coming from outside) but Rand doesn't seem to.  IIRC, that is.

I see where you're coming from.  And I think it may just be a matter of interpretation.

If you know that your weight will cause the ice to crack, and you step on the ice anyway, did you intentionally make the ice crack or not?  If you release an object you're holding over someone's head, knowing that gravity will make it land on them if you let it go, did you make it hit them or not?

It's clear from the examples that it's his presence making things happen.  If he knows what his presence is doing, and takes specific actions that allow his presence to do what it does, is it really meaningful to say that it wasn't him doing it?  Or is it a distinction without a difference?

And regarding him influencing the decisions of people he wanted to agree with him:  Elayne remarks to herself that they agreed with her being made the leader of their combined forces without much argument - because he was there.  But once he's no longer present, they start pulling back.  So she has to push before they start thinking about it.  So he really did get them to agree to something he wanted them to do regarding his plan.

But as just making everyone fall over and go along with him on everything - he knew he needed their true judgments and acceptance.  He knew from LTT's memories of the War of Power that they needed the best possible plan, not just HIS plan.  So he didn't want to force their agreement.

And in a very real way, it's the examples of when he DOESN'T just get his way that indicates he can either choose to make it happen, or choose not to.

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

"Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch."

 

I see why @EmreY doesn't think this is conscious. I could take it either way.

If it were only that, I would agree.

But similar things happen multiple times after that, with each example including an awareness that's beyond simply knowing something is coming.  He talks about being able to feel the life in an area, and the integrity of the earth.  And that it's his duty to "make things right."  And even in that passage, he specifically states that it's happening because he's there.

The grove of Great Trees that grew in five minutes outside the council tent at Merillor is far more than just something that happened because it could.  Same with the ship full of supplies that were suddenly all pristine because he was there, when every container that had previously been opened was rotten.  It only makes sense that he made these things happen intentionally.

20 hours ago, EmreY said:

I can't agree, I'm afraid.  Knowing something beforehand is not the same as causing it.

 

IIRC, the one place where he explicitly states that he can cause something is when he basically tells Cadsuane he can stop her heart just by thinking about it.

 

And since the point of ta'verenness is to correct errors in the Pattern, I don't think Rand is ta'veren at the end. Mat and Perrin are not, canonically, and there is no reason to assume that Rand is (or at least to the degree he was before the encounter with the Dark One, i.e. the degree at which the world bends around him).

 

Except that in at least some of these things, he clearly doesn't just know it beforehand.

The tree outside the tent, for example - that was him actively causing something to happen, not just knowing about it.

And I really don't find any explanation for what he's able to do at the end, given that we are specifically told it wasn't channeling.

Basically it means that he has gained a tiny bit of the Creator's ability, and can directly manipulate the Pattern itself.  And a big part of his epiphany was learning that in order to make things right, he has to innately understand what that is.  So he can't (or won't) abuse this new power.  But prior to his epiphany he could (and would).  As his threat to Cadsuane would have been.

On 10/30/2021 at 4:26 PM, boldnbeautiful said:

The book does not describe how the link is established between a Fae and Trollocs. It's somewhat similar to Aes Sedai and Warder bond considering that if a Fade dies, all linked Trollocs die.

 

The series somewhat contradicts about Trollocs. In early interviews, RJ said there are female Trollocs indicating that they give births. Later, RJ said Trollocs are constructs and that's why they can't go through Travel gateways without dying.

 

I don't think RJ ever wanted to elaborate on Trollocs/Fade ecology. They just breed fast and exists. In reality, how they can even exist such large numbers in the Blight where there are nothing to eat is highly illogical.  Just one of those we just need to accept.

 

 

 

 

We know that there must be some kind of breeding of Trollocs that happens, because Lan refers to Myrddraal as their near-human throwback offspring.

The "link" appears to be a function of the One Power (or perhaps the True Power), even though they can't channel.  It seems like it's one of the things they can do instinctually - like sensing channeling and traveling via shadow.  And keeping the wind from touching their cloaks (while they're still alive).

Most of their powers baffle even the Forsaken, with their (indirect) creator Aginor not being able to figure them out.

On 11/3/2021 at 1:15 PM, Dedicated said:

I've be reading it as "Gah-wayne" smh... "Gah-win" makes much more sense now. 

On 11/4/2021 at 11:58 AM, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

I suppose we'll both enjoy being wrong then! Pronunciations are hard...

Considering how much RJ uses Arthurian legend as a source, that pronunciation is perfectly understandable.  As would adding an additional "ah" (or is it "ha"?) in the middle of his brother's name.

?

It is said by Aes Sedai that the Heroes will follow whoever sounds the Horn - whether from the Light or the Shadow.  But it is clarified later by the Heroes themselves that they would never fight for the Shadow.

I don't believe that the Banner is necessary for them to fight, but if it's there they have to follow it.  At Falme, they sensed its presence but didn't see it displayed.  So they said they needed it.

On 10/23/2021 at 9:57 AM, Acevillain said:

Rand was the first to use Balefire. He uses it when he is by himself heading to Tear and still struggling to reliably channel. It’s isn’t called balefire but is described as a solid bar of liquid fire. I believe he was still somewhere in Tarabon or Amadicia at the time. 

While Nynaeve almost certainly uses Balefire (Egwene guessed that's what it was) it's odd that it didn't have the normal "rewind" effect.  The Aiel that had just been killed, including the Maiden she had previously Healed, stayed dead.

As far as Rand and his "Bars of light like white-hot steel" that flew from his fists - I'm not sure it qualifies, since we see it from Perrin's point of view in the wolf dream.  And none of the other things associated with Balefire are described.  No reversal of colors, no vanishing of the person struck, no "shimmering motes."  And he hit Perrin in the chest with it, but only left him a burn mark the size of a penny.

But if it was, then Rand and Nynaeve would have probably used it within a day or two of each other (possibly even on the same night), and Moraine did several days later.

On 10/6/2021 at 9:02 AM, DojoToad said:

That and the Pattern too.  Would Min, Elayne, Aviendah ever have shared any man 3 ways with any other women - had the Pattern not 'ordained' it?

 

Same for Mat and Tuon - no choice in the matter.  I agree that Mat wouldn't have looked at Tuon twice without the Pattern's or Finn's influence - she was short and slim and way too serious.  Mat chased care-free, buxom lasses that liked to laugh.  Tuon was none of those things, but it made sense in the context of the story.

I disagree on what interest he might have had in her without the Finns' influence.  At least, on whether it depended on knowing they were fated to marry.  From almost the moment they met, he kept finding himsef thinking aout her.  And her eyes.

It certainly didn't stop him from anything else, but she was in his head from the beginning.

On 1/2/2022 at 3:59 PM, Kat_152 said:

Was he over the moon about her?  From what I remember, the was told he would marry the daughter of the nine moons, and when he realized it was Tuon, and he claimed she was his wife 3 times.  Then he figured he aut to get to know his future wife.  I don't remember if he ever developed feelings or not, but if I remember correctly, he wasn't "over the moon" about her at all when he first met her.  I could be wrong though.

I don't think the question was about whether he was over the moon about her when they first met, but about whether he became so by the end.  And he certainly did.  Probably by the time he let her go back to Ebou Dar with her commander (it was part of why he agreed - because he could swear to see her safe).  But definitely by the end.

We are told that marriage among the High Blood has nothing to do with love, but he couldn't leave it at that.  He absolutely loved her by then.