8 hours ago, EmreY said:

Also not helped by IMDB not crediting the infant. ? 

Yep.

Interestingly enough, one of my objections to the way credits have been listed crops up (again) for that last episode.  Throughout the season, characters are named in the credits whose names are never given in the show itself.  Like Bran al'Vere, or the Grinwells.  

In the books it took several volumes to learn who Rand's mother was.  The readers may have suspected, but it wasn't confirmed.  In the show, it's given away in the credits in Season 1.  Before we're even told about the Aiel War.

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

You should recall how villified men that could channel were. Even those that were decent men at first. The mention of one man who woke up one morning and realized he sleep-channeled and flattened his whole village.

And that was a story told to Mat (and Rand) directly.

Which is why that very night that he learned Rand could channel he decided to sleep on the other side of camp.

It's funny because, with this talk about "abandonment" it's actually PERRIN who left.

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Based on those pictures, I assume that Joiya is 1-2 years old and the other baby is less than a year. They also have slightly different skin color or it's the lighting. The clothes are very similar though.

In both the viewing and the "dream," his skin tone is almost identical with the baby's.

Both are lighter in the viewing - which means it's a factor of how they're shown, rather than an actual difference between them.

And I don't really see the difference in age that you describe.  Compare the size of the baby's head with the size of Rand's hands.

To me the scene looks close enough to be obviously intending to show the same thing.  Especially given the similarity in the clothes between the two images.

I don't really see any reason to look at those two shots and say they're NOT the same two figures.

---

Also, the Wheel of Time Wiki (which is supposedly canon when referring to the show) lists Joiya al'Thor as appearing in both Eps. 7 & 8.

Joiya al'Thor | The Wheel of Time Wiki | Fandom

So whatever debate we might have here about how close in appearance the two are, the show says they're the same.

Of course, the Wiki still calls their home village "Emond's Field."  And the show never uses the name.

So who knows what's an authority and what isn't.

11 minutes ago, EmreY said:

If things that happened in dreams started to be part of her visions, then it would reduce credibility regarding Bad Things that happen in real life.

But it wasn't remotely just something he dreamed.

It was quite literally the most important thing he has yet experienced in his entire life.

Her viewings are about important decisions and events.

And nothing in three thousand years has been as important to the whole world as the decision he made there.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

Given the circumstances, my impression is that it's definitely Baby Joiya.  Who is important enough to be the subject of a viewing because she's a major decision point for him.

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

No, I don't think so.  I grant that the visions that Min has can be metaphorical, but they come true.   Having a baby in a dream is not the same as having a baby.

It came true.

He held a baby looked just like that, in just that way.

The fact that it happened inside a simulated reality created by "the man at the Eye" doesn't change the fact that it actually happened and involved a critical decision on his part.

Nothing in either the show or the books says her viewings have to exist physically.

A number of her viewings in the books - like those with Rand and LTT - have no physical existence.

Also, please note - the viewing doesn't say that he *has* a baby.  Just that he *holds* one.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

If it was anything else, he wouldn't look as much like he does now as he does in the viewing.  If it was his child with Min, his appearance would be completely different.  And no other kid of his would have that color hair.

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

Why?  I think it's a reasonable CGI approximation of a much later baby.

The "he" and "his" I was referring to was Rand.  Joiya (either the Black sister we haven't met yet or the baby) is female.  And baby Joiya is the same age in the "dream" as in Min's viewing.

I was saying that by the time any child that he and Min might have would be born, Rand would look completely different.

Even if he hadn't switched bodies with Moridin by then, he would be older, and missing a hand.

On 1/25/2022 at 7:06 PM, Pembie said:

I kind of thought that Matt espaced Dar tar but he hasn’t left yet hiding out with the circus 

Mat doesn't have anything to do with the events at Dumai's Wells or the Black Tower.

19 minutes ago, ashi said:

 

 

Maybe some old Shienaran lord found the horn and tried to blow it during some trolloc attack, only to get told off by Hawkwing because the Dragon wasn't there, thought to himself "that sucks" and buried it under the throne. Show headcanon (and it explains why they didn't try to use it, too!)?

Sounds about right.

42 minutes ago, EmreY said:

...we know the answer to the question of what baby he's holding.

42 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I don't think so.

I think we do.

Given the circumstances, my impression is that it's definitely Baby Joiya.  Who is important enough to be the subject of a viewing because she's a major decision point for him.

If it was anything else, he wouldn't look as much like he does now as he does in the viewing.  If it was his child with Min, his appearance would be completely different.  And no other kid of his would have that color hair.

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Yeah, the shorts seem much more lore friendly than the show. 

 

It seems ridiculous that modern Aes Sedai do not at least know about the two halves of the Power though. They routinely capture male channelers and given that they know about the taint you would think some of them bothered to study them.

Well, Siuan did say Logain would be kept in the Tower to be "studied."

But how much study would anyone except the Browns really want to do?  I don't even think Reds would want to get in on that.

We know that the Yellows in Salidar didn't want anything to do with him.  Because everyone (including in the Age of Legends, apparently) thought severing couldn't be Healed.

40 minutes ago, ashi said:

If so, the cleansing of Saidin would have to be very different.

 

Also, evil arising out of excessively attempting to eradicate evil isn't that confusing, is it? One might even see it as one of Jordan's themes taken to the extreme.

But making them all the same is precisely the kind of thing Rafe might do.

And it wouldn't be all that surprising if the Cleansing ends up being completely different as it is.  If it even happens.

Remember that after an entire season, we still don't have a clear statement in the show that saidin and saidar are different things.

1 minute ago, ashi said:

Disagree, though I suppose it is logically possible.

 

At least I read "We can fight for you because of [the Dragon banner], Gambler, and because the Dragon leads you—though he does it from afar. It is enough." as saying that the banner and the Dragon leading are necessary requirements for their taking part in a battle. To me, it would be an odd thing to say if the Dragon was not necessary (and just precluded their fighting for someone else if he was present). "It is enough" I take to mean that the banner and the Dragon leading means that the requirements for their fighting have been fulfilled, without which they would not have taken part.

 

 

No, I can definitely see your point.

It's one of those issues that book fans will probably debate for years to come.  I've personally come down on either side of the debate myself ever since the end of Great Hunt.

It's actually a completely moot point, unless someone gets approval to write additional stories and have them be considered canon.  Since the only times in the books that it comes up, the Dragon and the Banner are both present.

43 minutes ago, ashi said:

 

 

Technically, someone else could blow it, but according to Hawkwing, the Heroes would not fight for anyone but the Dragon, though of course the characters believe they would fight for whoever blows the horn.

Actually, that's not quite what they say.

They say that - if the Dragon is there - they must fight for him.

But if the Horn is sounded in some circumstance where the Dragon isn't involved, they can fight for them.  As long as it doesn't mean fighting for the Shadow.

Because they can tell that fighting for Mat means fighting for the Dragon in MOL, they can do it.

At least that's the implication from other details related in the books.

We know that at least one of those things (that they would fight for either side, whichever sounded the Horn) is wrong.  But it still looks like they only have to follow the Banner and the Dragon if they're actually present.

---

But if your interpretation is correct, it means that the Eye has three things that link to the DR, not just two and a half.  It's still one of the things in the Eye that he needs.

3 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

I like that technique. To each their own though.

The problem is that there's a fine line between keeping people excited for future answers and simply never telling the story.

We know that the books gave enough answers as they went to keep people involved long enough to hear other answers later.  At this point, we don't know which side of that line the show comes down on.

I'm hopeful that it's on one side.  I'm apprehensive that it's on the other.

Getting some of those big questions answered early in season 2 will play to the hope.  Not getting them will play to the apprehension.

11 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

That's my working theory. It might even be that the darkness of Shadar Logath and the Taint are the same. Multiple evils is a cool idea in the books, but can be confusing at times.

And Fain's whistle being heard in connection to all three virtually guarantees it.  Or it would if we can expect internal consistency.

A few things noted in a re-watch of Eps.7&8:

The voices of Machin Shin sound exactly like the voices Logain hears, just with more malice.  Does that mean the taint on the Ways and the taint on the Power are the same thing?  Or did the show just pick "generic spooky voice" for both?

Throughout the series, Fain's "whistling" has been heard at key times that have something to do with him.  Even though we never see him enter Shadar Logoth, we hear his whistling while everyone else is there.  We hear it in the Ways, just before the trolloc jumps at them.

We don't hear the whistling when we see him exit the Waygate (though the background music may be mirroring it), or at any time in Fal Dara.  Not when Perrin catches sight of him, and not when he comes to take the Horn.

The password Fain uses to get into the keep with his Fades is one of the lines of poetry Lan recites to Agelmar in the book.

In the Ep.8 prologue, Lews Therin is wearing something like a ring that covers three fingers on his left hand.  The "Dark One" has the same thing in his hand at the Eye, and gestures with it (like an angreal?) when he channels.

6 hours ago, TheSmurf said:

I think Forkroot could have a lot to do with both the Yellow being captured and killed, as well as his confidence Egwene couldn't really hurt him. 

Except that Egwene actually could channel, just not with any strength.  The reason she couldn't hurt him was because she didn't know how yet.

And she was able to split her Flows, which according to the books required exceptional dexterity in the Power.

If she had been dosed with forkroot, that wouldn't have been possible.

And without forkroot (or something similar) if what he did with Egwene and Perrin was the same thing he did with an actual Aes Sedai and her actual Warder, he would have died the first time he tried it.

9 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Yep, I hear you. Until this is revisited in future seasons I still don't think there's enough evidence to sway me either way completely, but I appreciate your insight.

Unfortunately, far too much of this show does exactly that.

Make you wait until something is revisited later to clear up an issue that it created in the first place.

So, now by what Ep.8 shows, we know the answer to the question of what baby he's holding.

We also know that Min saw a lot more about Rand than what she told Moiraine - including the very first viewing she ever had.

A viewing that also reinforces something discussed in another thread, that the show is using the Heron mark on the sword specifically as a Tam identifier rather than something with its own significance.  Though the "Dark One" seems to say that it really does mean something.

My biggest concern about Min and Moiraine's relationship is with the claim that the White Tower was somehow protecting her anonymity.  Even though Amalisa knew exactly who she was talking about when she mentioned the "seer."

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

I can definitely understand that rational. But even in the early  books the wolves have a keener sense of evil in Perrin's dreams than he does. It seems out of character for the wolves to be controlled by Ba'alzamon. Am I forgetting a scene in the books where the wolves do Ba'alzamon's bidding?

It's not that the wolves are doing his bidding.

It's that Ba'alzamon is lying to him about what's going on.

It's true that in the books we see the wolves (Hopper, specifically) acting to protect Perrin from Forsaken in the Dream.  But there's nothing to say that before Perrin met the wolves, Ba'alzamon wouldn't have inserted fake wolves into one of his deceptive dreams.  Specifically to make him believe something false.

It's just the kind of thing he would have done.  Either to make him think Laila was a darkfriend when she wasn't, or more likely to make him think wolves are evil.

We know from the books that a wolf would never have eaten a human body, so we already know from that fact that the dream is a lie.  Kill a human?  Absolutely.  Eat one?  Not at all.

8 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I never said Mat abandons Rand in tFoH, I only used that term in relation to the event in tGH.  I just said he attempts to leave at that time. 

 

I only brought it up in response to Gothic saying "But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. "

I didn't say you did.

My point was that the things that prevent him from leaving - even though he kept saying he wanted to - applied during the Great Hunt as well.  Including his "ideals."

Book Mat had ideals that precluded him abandoning his friends.  Even in tGH.

Show Mat apparently doesn't.

17 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

There's still the wolfish growl right before he spins around and hits her

That's just a noise he makes because he's fighting.  A noise we never hear him make again until Valda, because he never fights again.  It's true that by then he's developing his wolf nature, but it hadn't happened yet by Ep.1.

There's no indication it has anything to do with the ability to smell Shadowspawn that he develops later in the story.

16 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

The wolf eating her in the dream is what really sold me on Laila being a dark friend.

But that was a "Ba'alzamon dream."  So it almost had to be a lie.

On 1/25/2022 at 1:26 AM, Andra said:

 

Update (if anyone cares any more):

The gold ear decoration Kerene was wearing apparently gets buried with her in Ep.4.  It was visible when Stepin carried her body to the grave, and we don't see him remove it before the shroud gets laid over her.

Moiraine also doesn't have hers through all of Ep.5.

We first see her wearing it in the opening scene of Ep.6 (right after Siuan's origin prologue).  She has it through the entire episode right up until she leaves the Tower for the Waygate.  After that, nothing.

 

No indication in the show that it has any significance beyond simple ornamentation.

Aaaaand ... a final update on this:

When Moiraine leaves the Tower in Ep.7, she's not wearing it any longer.  We never see it again, though because her hair almost always covers her ears, it could be there occasionally, just hidden.

So to recap - it isn't the same thing Kerene was wearing, which appears to have buried with her.  So she didn't take it from her as a Fremen-style commemoration.  She has it through all of Ep. 6 (including the "love shack" scene) and only has it on her right ear.  When she leaves Tar Valon she no longer wears it.

It could have something specific to do with her and the Tower, but it's never explained.

The fingerless gloves are just something she wears pretty much whenever.  And are also never explained.

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Mat is with Rand at that point because he was told he had to go to Rhuidean or else he would die.  I don't doubt Mat's friendship in tSR but lets not pretend that he didn't have other motivations at that time.

 

And he did try to leave Rand after tSR but a mixture of Ta'vereness and his own ideals always stopped him.  Only after the battle of Caerhein did Rand put his foot down and told Mat he wasn't going to be able to leave.

But the only reason he knew he had to go to Rhuidean or die is because he didn't leave Tear when he could have.  Leaving Rand after discussing it with him and basically getting his permission is not "abandoning" him.

Having other motivations doesn't change what he actually did.

And his "ideals" preventing him from leaving is the entire point.

Book Mat had those ideals.  Show Mat apparently doesn't.

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

But we have no idea why the Eye was needed.  And clearly another male channeler could use the Eye, Aginor in this case.  We have alot of assumptions as to why the Eye was created, possibly due to the foretelling touched upon in tSR. 

My understanding from everything eventually told to the readers later in the books is that the purpose of the Eye was to hide the things it contained from everyone except the DR.  The Banner, the Horn and one of the Seals.  The "need" which made it accessible was to get those things because the DR had to have them.

Aginor could use the Eye once it was found, but it took the need of the DR to find it in the first place.

Moiraine is supposedly the only person in 3000 years to have found it twice, and she couldn't use it.  Anyone else who could use it (like Ishamael, Aginor or Balthamel - or even Taim) couldn't have found it in the first place.  That's basically what "Ba'alzamon" intended all along.  To get someone there with "need" who could pin it in place in the real world long enough for his people to get to it.

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

That's right, during the pillar flashbacks in tSR the Dragon banner and Callandor are shown, a foretelling is mentioned and Someshta is there.  I think there is mention of a group of Young Male Aes Sedai that haven't channeled long enough to go mad, I suppose these are the ones that make the Eye.

 

But yeah the details of the foretelling are not revealed so we can still only guess as to the purpose of the Eye.  I don't think it will be an issue in later seasons.

There are two (and a half?) links between the Eye and the Dragon Reborn.

The first is the pool of untainted Saidin.  The whole idea of "need" being used to get there, it pretty much guarantees that only the DR would ever be able to both find the Eye, and use it.

The second and a half are what's hidden in the pool.  The Dragon Banner, and the Horn.

I call the Horn only half a link, because though it's only used in the books to aid him, according to the lore it could be used by someone else.