Andra
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Posts posted by Andra
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5 hours ago, Pembie said:
I’m reading the books are the audiobooks better
I have only read the books.
I was curious because of the way you spelled names differently from how they are written. Like "Edith" for "Elaida." It's kind of how someone might try to figure out how to spell something unfamiliar after only hearing it spoken.
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10 hours ago, Skipp said:
And deciding to view the show as a different turning of the wheel is neither a good nor a bad thing.
Actually, it's a horrendously bad thing - a pathetic copout that was invented to explain away a raft of indefensible changes.
A different turning of the wheel wouldn't have people and places with all the same names. It would be, you know, different. This isn't that.
The Wheel spins out souls over and over again. Those souls don't have the same names every time. We know they don't, just from what we see at Falme. Nor do the places they live.
This is in fact the exact same turning of the wheel, just with so much changed for no apparent reason that someone had to come up with a cute excuse for it.
- Terry05 and Juan Farstrider
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So this is part of an actual conversation I had with a friend who was unfamiliar with the books (beyond knowing that they existed, and that I had read them) after he watched the first three-episode drop. A friend who is notorious for his tendency to pick up the smallest detail from whatever he watches.
Me: "So what did you think about the way they made Emond's Field look?" (I asked in part because of how the show got rid of the famous thatched roofs, and the tiled roof of the Winespring Inn).
Him: "Emond's Field? What's that?"
Me: "It's the name of the village our four/five protagonists come from."
Him: "No, that's called 'Two Rivers.'"
Me: "No, it's actually called 'Emond's Field' after the battlefield where King Aemon died."
Him: "No, it's 'Two Rivers' and it's where Queen Eldrene burned herself out. Where are you getting this other stuff?"
Me: "Sigh."
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On 2/3/2022 at 7:38 PM, Pembie said:
I really don’t understand why on earth Ewenge doesn’t just attack Edith in the white tower that’s what she was planning before crossroads of twilight I really do think this series moves at a snails pace a lot of time sorry to say
Because sisters killing sisters would destroy everything the Tower has meant for 3,000 years.
Also, I've been meaning to ask - are you reading the books, or listening to them?
Because the way you spell some of the names is ...
... interesting.
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On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:
Amazon actually has fewer Prime members that watch TV then you realise, that is one of the reason they are pushing original series to try and get more people watching the TV side of Prime.
Everyone with an Amazon Prime membership automatically has a subscription to Prime Video.
The comparison you're responding to wasn't about "all TV watchers," it was specifically about Amazon Prime Video vs. Disney +. And Amazon wins that battle by about 2:1. If an Amazon property (which existing members don't have to pay anything extra to watch) is getting fewer streaming minutes than a Disney + property (for which "paying extra" was the point of what you replied to), then Amazon is losing big.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:In terms of Changes that are required for TV, the only one that confuses me is the change to Mats Dad, taking the list above.
The changes to Mat and his parents don't. - I like the change to Matt but not to his mum and dad.I don't like either of them, and I don't remotely find that it makes better TV than the alternative. Also, the change to Mat was directly the result of the changes made to his parents. You can't have one without the other.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Changing the location of their village doesn't. - Location isn't changed, yes they refer to the 2 rivers rather than Emonds Field but that doesn't mean the villiage itself has changed.
The location is absolutely changed.
In the books, Emond's Field is surrounded by rolling farmland, with the Westwood AND the foothills between it and the mountains. Mountains no one goes into, because there is a superstition that they are "haunted." In the show, "this town" is up in the mountains proper. It is not the same location by any stretch of the imagination.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Erasing the existence of the Mayor and the Village Council doesn't. - Adding them adds nothing either, and just because they are not on screen doesn't mean they don't exist. Spending time introducing characters who then play no part in the main narrative for many seasons wastes screen time, but also requires the Actors to agree to return in several years time when no one knows what they might be doing. The fewer "Emonds Field" Cast that are defined, the easier it is to ensure they don't have schedule clashes when they are required again.
Then why include even more Women's Circle members than ever existed in the books? Why "waste screen time" on them? Why introduce numerous characters that won't be seen again for three more seasons?
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Making Bel Tine happen when the weather's already warm doesn't. This I imagine is a budget and location issue, filming on location was largely done in Croatia, relocating the whole cast and set to a wintery country at the time of filming just to show that time of year was probably not feasable. Sometimes you have to deal with what the location gives you in terms of weather. Additionally, filming in a location with bad weather causes it's own filming issues as you contend with rain and poor light cancelling filiming days.
You don't have to experience winter weather to make it look like there's still patches of snow, like the book says. No one has ever said that relocating the entire film sets would have been necessary to agree with the books. I don't have any idea why you would think they might. Especially since we already know they moved the set into the mountains unnecessarily.
The book says winter was strangely late leaving. The show never mentions the late winter, and makes it look like it's already summer.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Inventing Egwene's "initiation" doesn't. - I liked this, it was something new from the books and, for Non book readers it defines that she has come of age, it presents the idea that she was really excited about this event and that then feeds into later in her story arc.
Braiding her hair achieved that in the book. Literally not a single thing about it has fed into her story arc so far. And if you're saying they couldn't afford the time to tell the story in the source material, why include this ridiculous waste?
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Rand and Egwene having premarital sex doesn't. - This defines so much so quickly. It makes it clear in one scene what the relationship is between them, meaning you don't have to lose screen time explaining it, or building it. The important thing to the Story of them is, they are in a relationship and then in several seasons time will almost come to blows. It also defines to the audience that this is a TV show that will deal with sex, important given that in later seasons there are some very adult themes coming up (poly relationships, multiple rapes, compulsion being used to create hareems).
We don't need to be told they're having premarital sex (in violation of the norms of the Two Rivers in the books) to know they're in a relationship. No additional screen time would have been needed to "explain" anything without it. The adult themes that we will see later don't change that.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Having Marin al'Vere recognize Moiraine as Aes Sedai on sight doesn't - It again explains to the audience straight away quickly who she is, it allows us to get that sense that she is respected and also feared. If you go the route of the books then episode 1,2 and 3 will be spent in Emonds field, that is just wasted TV time on something that really is of little importance compared to the entirety of the series.
The audience already knew who Moraine is. The story is being told with her as the main protagonist.
And I don't know where you get the idea that not doing this would have required three episodes to get away. Literally nothing anyone has said supports that claim.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Nynaeve's story about her predecessor having been turned away from the Tower because she was poor doesn't. - This is key, in the books you don't really learn about those who are turned away until far later, but for a non book reader this is important information for things that will come later in the series. It also defines really easily a reason for Nyn to dislike the Aes Sedai without having to spend 3 episodes "scene setting"
Again with the "3 episodes" thing. Nothing would have required that.
Nynaeve's story is a complete invention that directly contradicts what we know from the books about how the White Tower deals with potential Novices. Hell, it directly contradicts what Suian's cold open tells us. If anything, Siuan even poorer than Nynaeve's predecessor would have been. And she became Amyrlin. At the very least, Moiraine should have told her that.
Nynaeve had plenty of reasons to dislike Aes Sedai without this ridiculous fantasy.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Moiraine and Lan knowing the Fade was already there and trollocs were coming ahead of time - and doing nothing about it - doesn't. - confused by this that is not the read I got from the show, but also, in the books It is described that Morraine and Lan warned the villiage just as the Trollocs where attacking.
In the show, Lan has already discovered evidence that a Fade is nearby, and that trollocs are likely with it, before the lantern ceremony. When he tells Moiraine what he found, he tells her they need to leave. NOT that they need to do something to protect the village. Hell, in the show a Fade rides his horse into the middle of the village the night before, and neither of them notices a thing.
In the book, they didn't know ahead of time that any shadowspawn were nearby (because they hadn't arrived yet), but warned the village as soon as they detected them.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:Killing Master Hightower (without even giving him the courtesy of being named) doesn't. - It explains one of the 3 laws, but also he isn't an important character, his death doesn't change anything about the story.
Yes, his death doesn't add anything to the story. So why kill him?
The book managed to introduce the Three Oaths without it.
On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Sir_Charrid said:I am surprised Perrin wasn't included, him killing his wife also makes sense in many ways.
I disagree on whether it makes sense, but I didn't include it because I already know all the arguments on both sides, and that Rafe explicitly did it to advance the show. However poor I find that reason, I at least know he HAD a reason
My primary issue with introducing Laila just to fridge her is that it is done to create a conflict in Perrin that isn't what his *actual* conflict was in the books. Having him kill someone in the first episode was irrelevant to that.
Violence vs. the Way of the Leaf was never his conflict. In the book, he had actually spent his time with the Tinkers explaining why the Way was incompatible with the world as it actually existed. He never considered taking it up himself. Even his choice between the axe and the hammer wasn't about that.
Perrin's conflict was between his wolf nature and his humanity.
The axe/hammer question was never about rejecting violence. It was about choosing something that was ONLY for violence or something that had other uses.
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5 hours ago, Katherine said:
FWIW I watched REACHER on Amazon last night which is based on a novel. It was almost scene for scene adaptation, and it was AWESOME. ALso has a 96% audience score with an 82% critics score.
Lesson? Stick to the damn source material!
This!
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14 minutes ago, Truthteller said:
And yet I was primed to love the show, my son even more so, and yet we didn’t.
This is what so many don’t seem to understand, they think the book lovers were predisposed to dislike the show that they, to use your words, have chosen to not like it.
In fact, the opposite is true, we desperately wanted to like it, choosing to see it as good as possible time after time. That is how bad the show is, they could have made any other version of the show and we would have liked it.
Instead, they made the worst possible version of the show, a show so bad that the most captive audience, the one most willing to suspend its disbelief, still disliked it.
Don’t believe me, chew on this. I think every single decision they made was bad. We live hear in the worst of all possible worlds. And yet I will still watch season 2. And not to hate watch the show, but because I am more than willing to make the choice you speak of.
This.
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On 9/12/2021 at 8:11 AM, Borderlander said:
~Instead of an old, white-mustached bard playing the harp in a multi-colored cloak, Thom is a 50-something hunk of hot man-meat rocking a guitar in a dusty, gritty travelling cloak. (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
Well, THIS was prophetic.
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1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:
I am pretty convinced the whole reason they did Mat's relationship with his sisters and his bad family (in addition to making him have a 'save the cat' moment where he looks very sympathetic and appealing) is to give us this traumatic moment where we realize he has forgotten them.
38 minutes ago, Pukel-man said:That was his only decent moment.
I thought he had a couple other decent moments, but they were mostly squandered.
I liked when he started the song about Manetheren, I just wish I could have understood a word of it without subtitles. His "accent" made him sound like he had a mouthful of gravel.
I liked his occasional flashes of humor - like when serving beer or commenting about Rand having picked up a little bit of prudent suspicion of Thom's motives. Or even just that Rand was trying to be funny.
I liked him stealing his money back from Thom without him noticing it.
But very little of that went anywhere. And even by this point in the book, a lot more of that was seen.
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1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:
The series the previous week had 300 minutes. The top 20 in this list (which is different, and includes movies as well as shows and is a different scale) has a bottom # of minutes at #20 of 344. It doesn't imply # of minutes changed, just that you'e doing a different range to compare to in this article.
Now, of course the # of minutes would drop off over time...the whole series is out, and not that long. Which is why I, for one, have advocated not making too many conclusions about viewership until all the #'s are out, which they are only just starting to be. Nothing, however, so far implies that it is doing worse than expected. Indeed, it may be doing a lot better than expected when it was put out. And we have yet to see international returns, of course. Internationally, the style choices for WOT are more appealing than I think they may be in the US, considering how much international fantasy fiction I've watched.
We'll see when we hear about renewals for S3. Which will probably be around when they're announcing S2 dates.That was one of the reasons I was hesitant to include that, since it didn't look like an apples-to-apples comparison.
But there are some valid comparisons within it.
The Witcher had been complete for four weeks by that list, and was getting quite a bit more streaming minutes per episode than WOT. The week before, when both of them are on the list, Witcher was at 114 million minutes/episode, while WOT was at 78.75. And Hawkeye was at almost 90.
I think the thing to be concerned about is that its closest comparisons (Hawkeye, Witcher) dropped off less during the season or after the bulk release than WOT has.
Of course, it could be worse. Foundation apparently never made the top-20 list at all. But at least they also got renewed.
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10 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:
I thought bonus materials did not count?
Or, if you prefer, this is upstream of the delta, and the delta is further down the river. You can have both in fairly close proximity in a block and basin environment.
I believe my first comment in this thread regarding continuity referred to inconsistencies between what was seen on screen and what the bonus materials say.
And they say Siuan lived in the delta. Not upstream from it.
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13 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:
These mountains?
Yes, these mountains.
Which are both lower in elevation and further south than where Mat is complaining. And the Aes Sedai party isn't on top of the mountains even there. They are down in the valleys where they can travel with a fortified wagon. Not up in the high passes.
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3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:
Oh, you're absolutely right about what a delta is. What changed in the show from the book is that the Fingers of the Dragon is now not a delta. It's a carst limestone terrain, like in China. The geology is different. But Siuan is still a fisherman's daughter, still talks like a fisherman's daughter, and even practices her knots. They dedicated a whole cold open to showing she still is, and when she's in private with Moiraine she still acts like it.
The problem is that the bonus materials still refer to the Fingers of the Dragon as a delta.
And it just isn't.
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30 minutes ago, Deviations said:
River deltas are the area made of of the silt carried down the and dumped in the sea when the water slows down. That can't be in cliff formations which can be a short ways up the river. I think this is the MacKenzie river delta in Canada. The delta is the flat part...
I get that you have to suspend disbelief when taking in a story like this so I didn't lose my mind over it but it was just one of a hundred things in the series that didn't sit well. Siuan grew up a fisherman's daughter and speaks somewhat colloquially in the books, but like a court raised noble in the tv series. Changes the whole feel of who she is supposed to be (for me).
A lot of what I've noticed with the changes in the scenery appear to show nothing more than the fact that Rafe likes the looks of mountains. Virtually everything takes place in or next to mountains in each episode. Even in places we know were in the middle of vast plains in the
books.
1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:Have lived in the mountains. It can and does snow in May in the mountains, long after the wildflowers have bloomed and the passes are clear. That's just elevation.
Which explains Mat being "a little chilly" walking through a (newly-invented) mountain range running smack down the middle of Andor.
But not snow further south and at lower elevations in Ghealdan.
From the bonus materials for the episode, we know the snow wasn't originally in the scene. But it started snowing when they were filming, and Rafe liked the way it looked. So he ran with it.
Without considering the possible continuity/consistency issues it might raise.
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12 hours ago, Graendals favourite said:
Ok, well if you say so, I acquiesce. I secretly still believe I am right, but I won't argue it further. Hopefully the thinking of it has been entertaining, useful or edifying! (I was nice to talk since long time.)
Not a thing wrong with speculating about things.
In fact, I have personally speculated that the hints about Taimandred were so obvious that it must have been Jordan's original plan. I think the only reason he changed it is because it would have meant more than one of the Forsaken was free before the first Seal was broken.
And no need to account for the effects of Balefire at all. ?
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@whiteveils
So I think I found the source I had originally looked at. It doesn't actually disagree with that, I had just misunderstood when it was posted.
The drop-off continued through episode 7/week 5, then picked up for episode 8/week 6. Given the fact that those numbers don't tell you which episode(s) got the viewing minutes, the implication was that some substantial part of the audience that week waited until the last episode dropped, then binged the whole season. And probably the same thing for week 7.
Of course, everything after that was either bingers or re-watchers.
Something else I've seen reported shows that after the week of the 9th, it dropped out of the top 20. Though their weeks appear to be out of sync with Nielson's, with them showing your numbers (and Nielson's) as being the week ending Jan. 2 rather than Jan. 9. And the week of 1/3-1/9 showing it out of the top 20.- Vambram and Juan Farstrider
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3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:
This is not a huge dropoff. There's a big dropoff from week 1, but that was 3 episodes at once so it would obviously have more minutes viewed. Hawkeye included for comparison.
That's interesting.
It doesn't match what I thought I had seen, which continued dropping through the final episode. I'll have to see if I can find the link, which I know wasn't to a Twitter page.
Was Hawkeye also a three-episode premiere? I haven't heard.
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9 hours ago, king of nowhere said:
Not sure; rivers do form canyon complexes, having one such complex close to the sea may possibly happen under very special circumstances.
But yes, i am well aware movies prioritize what looks cool in the moment over what makes sense. It's one of my main problems with tv in general. I haven't seen a single cultivated field anywhere, and the witcher wasn't better in this regard. Lotr wasn't better. All cities are in the middle of wilderness. I always wonder what people eat
I'm the same way.
I spend a lot of time hiking and backpacking, and I know how much of the preparation for the trip involves getting food together for the whole party.
We know where Egwene and Perrin got their food, and we suppose Rand and Mat did something similar in the show as in the book. But the party of Aes Sedai escorting Logaine spent a month on the road with apparently no wagons except the one holding Logaine's cage. And nowhere near enough pack animals to have made up for it.
One of the things I liked in the books with the rebel Aes Sedai forces on the march was the mention of having to trade with the locals for supplies, or for mending the things they couldn't trade for. And the sheer exhaustion of the paperwork involved. Same thing for Mat and the Band having to wait for the wagons to catch up every day on the march toward Tear.
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9 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:
The argument I addressed was "The aes sedai don't seem like skilled politicians and manipulators" I responded by pointing out that the real deal don't seem that skilled either. Then you jump to "We're only talking about the books" Which is a different argument, so yes, goalposts moved. Maybe not internally for you, but from the actual discussion yes.
This thread was originally about changes to Mat in the show. Which means that any discussion about Tower politics was already a different argument.
In my comment that you responded to, I specifically said "The issue I have ..." and then explicitly drew a comparison between the show and the books. No goalposts moved. Just a new topic.
9 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:Also, my statement about being part of business politics is a perfectly plausible scenario as many people are blessed to NOT have to deal with that garbage.
And completely irrelevant to anything I had said, which was a comparison between the show and the books. Not "real world business politics."
9 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:You mean that time where Alviarin actually got punished? Not all those times she tried gutsy, stupid or unlikely things and succeeded? Doesn't really disagree with my points at all.
Alviarin wasn't punished by her Ajah head because the Amyrlin had punished her. She was punished by her Ajah head because her dereliction of her duties in being absent from the Tower with no explanation when Egwene's forces showed up brought disgrace to the Whites.
And she hadn't tried "gutsy, stupid or unlikely things and succeeded." She had manipulated Elaida to do all those things, while remaining in the shadows herself.
Regarding your real world analogies: If you had mentioned the Vatican and the College of Cardinals you might have had a point, but you didn't bring it up until later. And the Tower isn't really analogous to any of the things you had mentioned at the time.
The politics of the Tower isn't really in the same boat as that of a business, or the police, or a legislature, or ...
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But this is pointless.
How about we get back to the original point of this thread?
What about that Mat guy? Is he a real piece of work, or what?
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5 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:
Ratings:
From this thread:
For the full year 2021, #TheWheelofTime had the strongest series debut (greatest avg demand in the first 30 days) of any show in the US across all platforms. It was the most in-demand series across all platforms worldwide during its first eight days of availability.
I think it's probably OK. I hope.
Yes, it had a good premiere.
But demand decreased each week after that first three-episode release.
Whether that trend was alarming enough for Amazon to take note and step in to address any of the concerns mentioned here and elsewhere? WAFO. ?
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18 minutes ago, Katherine said:
I concede that Jedi made extremely poor profits (in star wars terms) as opposed to a loss. That billion dollars profit was low enough to send the franchise into panic mode, then Solo came out.
And Solo LOST 76 Million. Panic turns to crisis.
Again, Amazon isn't here yet. But I think they will be with WoT, and already worried that LoTR will follow the same trend.
I believe Solo lost money that year, but has since turned a profit.
The source I looked at said it did eventually make money (by 2021).
Solo: A Star Wars Story (2018) - Financial Information (the-numbers.com)
And I agree with you on where Amazon's heading.
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4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:
Again those choices where made in order to make a TV show that works, he hasn't thought. "I know I am going to do this thing to piss people off"
Whoever picked up this show as showrunner would have needed to make the exact same decisions, and, whichever way they had gone would have seriously upset Some people. Even if Amazon gave unlimited time and money you would still not be able to make a page for page adaption, because it would make for some truly awfully dull TV at times.
You Don't like the choices he made, that is entirely fair, what isn't fair is anyone trying to claim he is doing it because he thinks he is better then RJ, or to sabotage the story. He is a show runner and writer, he is trying to make a show that appeals to the masses and will do that over 8 seasons. That is a very different skill set to actually writing a novel.Look at the specific criticisms people here have made about the changes.
Virtually none of them are about things that were done to "make a TV show that works." They are pretty much all about things that don't appear to have any point except to show he could change them.
The changes to Mat and his parents don't.
Changing the location of their village doesn't.
Erasing the existence of the Mayor and the Village Council doesn't.
Making Bel Tine happen when the weather's already warm doesn't.
Inventing Egwene's "initiation" doesn't.
Rand and Egwene having premarital sex doesn't.
Having Marin al'Vere recognize Moiraine as Aes Sedai on sight doesn't.
Nynaeve's story about her predecessor having been turned away from the Tower because she was poor doesn't.
Moiraine and Lan knowing the Fade was already there and trollocs were coming ahead of time - and doing nothing about it - doesn't.
Killing Master Hightower (without even giving him the courtesy of being named) doesn't.
And that's all just in the first episode.
It's possible that in some bizarre way Rafe actually thought those changes made for better TV. And that's part of the problem.
- Juan Farstrider and Terry05
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On another topic:
In the scenes in the Hall of the Tower, there is an empty seat among the Greens.
The show never says it, but Kerene was a Sitter, and Captain-General of the Green Ajah.
- WhiteVeils, DaddyFinn, Vambram and 5 others
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Mat In Season 1
in Wheel of Time TV Show
Posted
They didn't need to know about Fain.
They knew - before the battle, and before any order to dig up the Horn was given - that there were darkfriends within the walls. Given that knowledge, it was supremely idiotic to get it out of hiding without knowing who they were and what they were after.
The chance that you might get it safely away from the darkfriends is no more likely than that you would do what actually happened. Place it directly in their hands.