5 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Have we all forgotten about Suian's cold open being extremely adapt at unravelling knots.

Is Moiraine stilled or just tied off? Hmmmmm.... 

 

 

could be a satisfying way to tie up that plot.

no pun intended

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

My problem is its a shit plan. Anyone seeing 3 bodies loaded into a wagon is going to question WTF is going on.

nope. they are aes sedai. NOBODY is going to question aes sedai, period. especially not in tar valon.

anyway, in the books themselves elaida had the king of illian kidnapped, and he was brought to the docks rolled inside a carpet. nobody questions the logistics of that about the books. if aes sedai can "disappear" a king from a hostile nation, would they have a problem with three girls?

6 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

, I would have almost preferred if they skipped the scene in The Ways entirely.

I disagree. While the logistics of the kidnapping are very easy to explain in a variety of ways and i really don't see why some people keep insisting that we need to be shown the details, there is exactly one issue that could cause confusion, and that's how they crossed the continent in a couple of days. Many fantasy shows are rightly criticized for moving characters around at the speed of plot; in this case there's a perfect explanation and it's good to show it.

It didn't even cost screen time, because liandrin and nynaeve needed to have that "i have betrayed many things" conversatiin anyway.

As for the shields, we book readers know the difference between tied and held shields. And while escaping from a tied shield is possible, it requires skill, so it may be above the capability of two novices and an accepted with a block.

It would be really nice if logain explained it to rand, though

4 hours ago, Rhaze said:

 I would imagine it is a choice of following the trail up the mountain or down the mountain.

14 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Are they not in some rural backwater in the mountains? There may be only one reasonable escape route on horse back, and if you are looking for someone, checking the stables seems a reasonable thing to do whether you know they have gone there or not.

how does she know they didn't just pick a random direction in the woods, got just far enough to not be visible from the house, and hide there? it's what they ended up doing eventually.

and unless they were in a place surrounded on 3 sides by sheer cliffs with only a narrow route of access (admittedly, given the scenery prevalent in the show, it's not too unlikely), it should be possible to just cut through the woods. yes, it's dangerous to walk in the woods by night like that, but nowhere near as dangerous as picking the obvious escape route against a forsaken.

then again, moiraine knew she could find horses at the stable, and knew lanfear would not find horses, so it's not a bad plan. they just got unlucky.

but wait, if lanfear knew there was a stable there, and she knew they were running there, she could have traveled. instead she got there by foot, so she was tracking them.

i mean, if she does not know where they are going, she can try to track them - by night, without any skill at it. if she does know where they are going, she can use a gateway.

but ok, it's only a very minor plot hole, and the scene was powerful

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

I suspect we are about to see Lan defeat two other warders

Indeed, the last trailer points there.

On one hand, the whole setup - them thinking lan is a darkfriend - feels completely wrong and will be hard to swallow.

On the other, we may actually see lan win a fight! For the first time in the whole show! Yay!

I hope he does not kill the other warders

Speaking of lanfear falling for tricks, how did she track moiraine and rand to the stable and afterwards? If she could see them, she'd have taken them. Otherwise, for all her ancoent cunning, following track in the woods by night is not part of her skill set

Speaking of the whole aviendha business, i liked valda. "The more questions i ask, the more answers i get" is a great villain-defining moment. I can't say if he truly believes that it's the right way to fight the shadow, or if he does not care; and i can't say which is more scary.

I liked the fight; the common mistake movies make is having the mooks attack one at a time while the others just dance around; here, just like in the shaiel scene, the aiel keeps jumping around to avoid being cornered. It's enough to keep suspension of disbelief, at least. I don't think even the greatest martial artist would stand much chances against many opponents with sword and armor, but that's the kind of mildly superhuman feats you expect from aiel

Bornhald jr was also well introduced. In the books he didn't have anything special distinguishing him from other whitecloaks; here he's the one who took pity of a prisoner. His reason for hating aybara is also a lot more substantial than "he was roughly in the same geographical area my father was killed, he must be responsible somehow". At the same time, perrin saved him; now both of them have reason to hate and mistrust the other, but both also have proof that the other is a decent, caring person. There's good potential there

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Having just got through that section of the book not to long ago (again), I never took Avi to be shy. 

I took her as someone who didn't want to be forced into a relationship with a man because a bunch of old crones decided it was her duty to.

3 hours ago, Rhaze said:

 I dont remember her being shy at all nor did I think she was a virgin, but quite possibly could have been. She never hesitated to drop her clothes. She had an issue with RAND specifically because she saw through the arcs that she was going to end up with him and didnt want to be forced into being with someone.

iirc, she mentions rand being her first in the book. and she's never shown interest in any other man.

considering many maidens hit heavily on men, the fact that aviendha does not do that makes her shy for far dareis mai standard. none of her dealings with rand factored in my assessment

as for nudity and disrobing, that's no cultural taboo for aiel. And i can bring you plenty of real world comparisons, because in finland people routinely take saunas naked, even mixed sexes groups, and you can find plenty of people who are generally shy/introverted but have no issued disrobing in front of a bunch of strangers. it doesn't mean anything.

13 hours ago, Cipher said:

 I guess Liandrin is now strong enough to hold 3 shields simultaneously on 3 of the most powerful saidar channelers in hundreds of years. When multiple Aes Sedai couldn’t hold one shield on Logain.

while I also didn't enjoy that part, it can be explained.

I mean, the previous times they were in the ways, the slightest bit of channeling attracted the black wind. would nynaeve try to channel in those conditions?

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I enjoyed the episode overall but just to address one of the criticisms - isn't it obvious that Aviendha was absolutely taking the piss out of Perrin? And even when she said something like "But I would not be opposed" or something after laughing, isn't that just very on-brand for Aiel, especially Maidens?

indeed. and in any case, maidens of the spears were very sexually assertive in the books, maidens kisses, anyone? I agree it's not much like aviendha, she's shyer than most, but it fits very well with aiel culture.

8 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Indeed they could not be since she was sworn to "speak no word that is not true".  

 

As to the rest:

It might have been better to take the 4th horse with them - but dragging a horse at speed through the woods in the dark is not safe for the led horse or the rider leading it.  Moiraine is a expert horsewoman and would be able to balance the risks.  

 

She did her best to convince (without being able to compel) the ostler to flee without stopping to Tar Valon - Lanfear would have realised the bluff long before that and while she is short tempered and spiteful she would not be likely to hunt her down later.  She might also be aware that Lanfear is not likely to be an expert rider and would chase too fast, knackering her horse and leaving the ostler moving her weight over 3 according to their strength easily able to keep ahead.  At least this time the minor character doing something foolish out of sentiment is a woman (compared to the ferry owner in E2).

indeed, moiraine has tried to minimize collateral damage in any case I can think of.

also, in the books rand distrusted her with no real reason, just because "aes sedai bad" and "two rivers stubborn", and that felt stupid. at least the accident with the ferry was intentionally meant to give rand better reasons for his mistrust, and this episode probably also has a similar function.

by the way, anyone suspecting moiraine's sister may be a darkfriend? after barthanes entered the show, what she said in the previous episode about "doing what was necessary" to restore her family name can be taken ominously

8 hours ago, Mirefox said:

 

At this point in the season, the literary gymnastics that it will take to get Mat leading a charge will be whiplash-inducing.

in the very first episode, when the trollocs stormed emond field, mat threw himself out of a safe hiding spot to look for his sisters. mmat can definitely lead charges, even his show version

by the way, I absolutely love the way ishamael introduces himself. his good-natured voice while he lists his epithets, as if there was nothing wrong or strange with them and "betrayer of hope" was just a name like any other. makes me laugh and gives me the chills at the same time.

speaking of which, they did a good job making the foresaken actually scary. every time I see one of them on screen, I'm like "ah crap". the books never gave me that reaction

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I doubt that most non-readers watching the show will have even thought to ask the question of how, logistically,  she got them from the Tower to the Ways.

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

This is something that is going to have people watching the show look sideways and go, wait how the hell did she get them out of the city?

what's so mysterious about it? liandrin is an aes sedai, in tar valon. she could walk around the city with a cart full of corpses, wave her ring around and nobody would ask questions - except perhaps "how may I be of help, aes sedai?"

but even if she was a normal person, throw the unconscious girls in a cart, cover them with some sacs of mundane goods, and she can leave the city like any other merchant.

or, just like there are secret passages out of the tower, there may be secret passages out of the city too.

really, getting the girls out of the city is the most easily explainable mystery. everyone wondering about it should come up with a half dozen reasonable explanations in a minute. it's not worth spending screen time over it.

if we want to investigate logistic mysteries, I am far more concerned about how a massive city can apparently exhist amid mountainous wilderness with no farms in sight and still get food.

P.S. won't comment the episode, I also think it's been the best so far but I have nothing to add.

except for one thing, I was hoping we would see rakens by now.

Well, latest episode clears that forever. Moiraine referred to ltt as rand previous reincarnation

5 hours ago, Gary Again said:

 If Liandrin is in the ways it would be so cool to hear what Machin Shin has to say to her. 

 

"deep down, you are good!"

well, more likely, "the dark one will sacrifice you and you will never achieve immortality. really, what were the odds anyway? what kind of a stupid decision it was to become darkfriend for a million-to-one odd?"

and it would actually be true. actually, machin shin spoke truth to rand too. machin shin, the wind of wisdom.

Quote

On a related note I really want to hear what Machin Shin said to Loial. Only one of your eyes are as big as a teacup, the other is the size of a saucer. Your mom is looking for you and I told her where you are. She comes.

she comes

the speaker of the stump, the bringer of marriages, loial's mother

attend you all, for she comes

i rewatched, and realized i misunderstood elayne. i assumed she followed egwene to leave the tower with her, but she was just following egwene to see what she was doing, and possibly to keep her from doing something stupid. good elayne. of course liandrin immediately spoiled it.

by book canon, liandrin shouldn't be powerful enough to keep the three girls shielded, even though none of them reached her full potential. iirc, nynaeve was roughly as strong as liandrin at the time they came back to the tower. or maybe it was egwene. anyway, liandrin may be capable of maintaining a shield on nynaeve at this point, but she can't hold all three girls together. but i'm willing to overlook it, it's not really important. maybe tv!liandrin is a bit stronger than her book counterpart. i doubt she already has access to forkroot

5 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

It seems to be a trend of TV, particularly fantasy TV that they like to film things in darkness ignoring that many of us don't have the high quality TV's that allow it to be viewed brilliantly.

so, more marketing for high quality TV. they have to sell those somehow

they could move it around, but they would have to introduce mat as a competent fighter at some point. the books used that scene to tell readers that mat, who did nothing special until that point and spent a long time sick, was capable of fending for himself.

on the same note, i do really hope the show does something for rand swordfighting. it would have been good to see him spar with errol once. in any case, they have to show him getting some training if they want his duel with turak to be believable

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Really?? In all seriousness. Is this a proven fact? That’s fascinating if it’s been somehow scientifically studied and proven. Especially considering the subjective nature of classifying marriages in this way narrowing the subject down to “devoted married people”. A lot of devoted married people have open relationships. A lot of devoted married people don’t have sex, at least after some time has passed. 

I think we can safely say that, on average, married people have more sex with a partner than single people.

We can also safely say that people with a happy marriage also have good sex more often than people in an unhappy marriage - unless the unhappily married suffer through all their issues only because of how great is the sex.

In general, people in a good relationship tend to be happier than people in a bad relationship, at least as far as their relationship is concerned.

From this, we can without doubt conclude that people who display a higher level of happyness tend to be happier.

😁

10 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

True, but you've got to admit that there's a difference between RJ's approach which is usually something like, "The woman wore a sheer dress that left little to the imagination. Egwene blushed furiously," and Alanna explaining the logistics of a threesome. Indirect vs. Direct.

You are right for the books, but it's the reverse in television. Here, putting up a bunch of da'covale in their canon garb would be very direct, and it could constitute softcore porn.

While alanna talking of "seeking your pleasure"? Nothing is shown. I haven't noticed any gratuitous sex - a few dialogues in a sauna-like environment, but no actual exposure and not sexualized.

Even alanna's comment, she's not explaining anything mechanically.

So I would argue the tv show is as indirect as the books

2 hours ago, Cipher said:

It is not “”100% true” that the Victorian age wast the “most repressive” ever.  There is no meaningful way of measuring such a claim.  There are nations right now that execute homosexuals and the scourge of female circumcision might still exist and was a major problem in the near past.

yes, ok, there is no objective way to measure cultural prudishness.

[historical tangent that has nothing to do with thread but may be interesting to some]

I was thinking at people from the time covering table legs because they may be suggestive, which is the silliest extreme I ever heard of in the topic. I was also tapping into the notion that pleasure was considered bad even in a marriage, and sex was supposed to not be too enjoyable - though perhaps I picked this up from hearsay and it's not historically accurate. I do know for a fact that the church started to put out recomendations on which positions were allowed and which were not, and theologians were listing the ways you were allowed to touch boobs while other ways were sinful, and that started happening in the late middle age, I'm not sure how much of that was still observed in victorian era.

On the other hand, a culture that executes homosexuals is not necessarily prudish, merely homophobic to the extreme. A culture that practices female genital mutilation may have a plethora of reasons, ranging from straight misoginy to just tradition. while we generally equate it with repression, a lot of different ancient cultures indipendently came up with the idea of chopping up pieces from the nether regions of both boys and girls; lacking a specific context, I'm ascribing it more to "humans are weird" than to anything specifically related to sexuality.

those cultures may still encourage - or at least say nothing - a husband and wife to seek pleasure, while victorian culture tried to discourage even that, which is why I consider it the most sexually repressive I ever heard of.

[end of historical tangent]

regardless of any reason to rank cultures according to prudishness, that's irrelevant. My point was simply that in the past there were more liberal cultures and so we can't say "this is historically inaccurate"

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

 once she is healed Siuan tries to stick to the 3 oaths again as much as she is possibly able and so stops pushing the narriative

just saying that she can keep pushing the narrative also after taking the three oaths

"regarding logain and the reds, I spoke the truth" Yes, at some point she certainly said something true about logain and the reds; it doesn't have to cover all she ever said.

"as aes sedai I cannot lie, and I confirm you this: logain was manipulated and set up as false dragon by power groups among the aes sedai" that power group including, most notably, her and leane.

"the reds have allowed logain to flee and gain power" logain fled the tower during the red coup, and he gained power afterwards, so it's technically true

17 minutes ago, Samt said:

 it's also unrealistic that an agrarian, pre-industrial society would have such promiscuity since pregnancy and venereal diseases are still a problem. 

true for the general population, but aes sedai can just get healed. I'd think they could be more promiscuous than many.

also, zigzagged in the real world. sure, std were a strong incentive on monogamy - and while I am unable to find confirmations, I would bet that most religions frowning on illicit sex and prostitution stemmed from seeing those disease as divine punishments.

on the other hand, there were plenty of ancient civilizations - agrarian, preindustrial - that were very promiscuous, especially the ruling classes. romans and greeks had sex slaves and widespread same-sex relationships outside of marriage. though that sexual freedom was much lower for women, because of pregnancies.

even in the middle ages europe was a lot less bigoted than it's generally known, with the church pushing for more restrictions on sexuality gradually in the late middle age.

in fact,

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I could be mixing up my fantasy series, but I think WoT mentions a herb for that.
Ahh here it is.. Heartleaf.
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Heartleaf

And while WoT is pre-industrial, It's setting isn't Medieval, it's closer to Renaissance... and people got freaky during that time period.

the most sexually repressive time was renaissance and victorian ages.

those were the times when you could get burned at stake for homosexuality - in earlier times nobody cared much as long as it wasn't too obvious.

again, a few nobles would stand out, but they were more exceptions.

all in all, I think we can't take history to say what is or isn't realistic. in fact, history shows us a lot of different examples that can be used to justify pretty much anything

57 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

 Matt thinks her and Thom is out of the blue because it is, it is never really hinted at in the books because we never know what Moiraines emotions are.

On the other hand, I liked it because it fits them so much.

they are both extremely skilled social players. they can read volumes in a raised eyebrow. they can ask you a couple innocent questions and from those understand things about you that you yourself never suspected. they could read the comments in this forum and from those somehow predict who will win the next elections.

so it makes so much sense for them to just spend some time around each other, mostly ignoring each other, and yet somehow understanding everything.

I can see their married life.

M looks at T

T looks at M

M looks at T

T leaves without saying a word

Thom noticed the slight twitching in moiraine's finger; it means she's nervous. and she gets nervous when she doesn't have a good breakfast. it means they run out of milk, so thom went to the market. Moiraine perfectly understands where he's going and why

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

No it does not.

 

She took him to a party where they stole some wine.

 

Even if they put spies on them which from that interaction i would deem a low chance how would they have been followed up

 

Just one word: ta'veren

very convenient for the plot

even in the books there are places where characters throw around numbers wildly. i remember nynaeve remarking on the circle healing mat that it was twice as powerful as her, despite being made by a half dozen of the most powerful sisters available with vora's sa'angreal.

so no, don't put much faith in characters throwing numbers.