wait a moment, I just realized a thing.

So it seems the a'dam is replaced with that wird sort of golden collar/shoulder piece. And it doesn't come off ever until the damane is alive, according to this article.

How do they change their dresses? it's really impossible with that thing.

does that mean that alivia wore the same dress for 400 years? say what you want of the seanchan, they know how to make durable clothes. hygiene is also rather difficult.

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Remove all the internal monologue in the books, and we're left with a lot of grunting and whining.

don't forget the staring, sniffing, and pulling of braids

28 minutes ago, Durzan said:

Okie, so there's a scene early on in the books where a character (I think its Siuan, but not entirely sure), is explaining about the One Power, and how non-channelers are more or less helpless against them in most circumstances. It's phrased like she's mocking someone. What's the exact quote?

 

Keep thinking it involves something about "Big burly man" but might be getting it confused with another quote from a different series. Anyway, I can't for the life of me find it. Can you guys help me?

I think it is a talk she has with nynaeve when they are on the boat from shienar to tar valon, in book 2. nynaeve wanted to make a knife of air, or something like that.

not sure if that's what you are referring, but it's in the great hunt, chapter 18.

27 minutes ago, Guire said:

A couple of damane things.  Pretty sure the pacifier thing is a reference to scolds bridles, branks, and iron gags used on woman and slaves. 

 

The collars are also interesting. 

or, it could just be a way to make damane more visible.

there was a big push in that direction, because while the book can point out a detail like a ring, a casual spectator will easily miss it. so aes sedai rings are massive. in a similar vein, long nails for the seanchan nobility became those claw-like jewelry, as they are much longer and you can't miss them.

and for the damane? a collar can easily be missed on a nondescript grey dress. many of them also seem to have ponitails, which could further mask a leash. from the front, it would be hard to see. instead, they made a huge metallic thing right on their faces. even their dresses are much more colorful. now you can't miss them.

i wonder, on the other hand, how the damane can talk with those things in mouth. because damane are supposed to communicate with sul'dam, if nothing else to report if they have problems. you know, besides being enslaved and tortured into compliance. can damane talk in the tv show? I will be curious to see.

also, I can't see the leashes at all in the few scenes where we see damane. maybe they won't be there. it will certainly be more convenient, it must be quite complicated and dangerous to ride horses while bound that way. a simple fall can easily result in a broken neck for the damane and broken arm for the sul'dam. and it could complicate things for the actors too.

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Off-topic tangent to address Game of Thrones: if you're chalking up the disastrous conclusion of that show to a lack of source material, you're seriously misdiagnosing the situation because what caused the demise of that show and Benioff and Weiss' career is not the fact that they had to 'make up an ending', it's the fact that they pulled a massive bait-and-switch on thousands of viewers at the eleventh hour after having spent the previous 71 episodes flat-out lying to said viewers - repeatedly - about certain characters and their narrative trajectories.

 

Okay, tangent over.

tangent not over. I did not watch got, but those who did said that the quality was steadily going downwards for a while. plot holes were also mentioned.

but I did watch the witcher, and season 1 was great, season 2 was not, and season 3 was middling; until episode 5, which was good.

All this to say that there's no guarantees on the quality of a tv show. a good first season may be followed by a decline, and a bad first season may be followed by progress. we can only hope

regarding the comparisons with got and stuff like stage quality, I think confirmation bias has a lot to do with it.

if one has liked got, then one is more likely to praise the overall quality and ignore small details. if one did not like wot, one is more likely to nitpick every little thing. including things that are not problems at all, just because he's annoyed and more likely to complain.

it's pretty bad form to call criticism bias-induced, because it can just be a cheap way to shot down criticism, legitimate or not. On the other hand, bias does exhist, and everyone is susceptible to it. angry fans that were expecting one thing and got a different one most of all.

while I certainly would not want to pan all criticism as bias, when it comes to the setting, lighting, and all that stuff that is very suble and virtually impossible to judge objectively, I do think bias has a major role. especially because there's a very strong correlation that people who liked the overall adaptation are also perfectly fine with the image, while people who didn't like the overall adaptation are also lamenting on the production quality.

1 hour ago, Samt said:

I wouldn't say this is really accurate.  Of course, many of the scenes are not precisely "placeable," (and some of the scenes are likely dreams, alternate realities, or flashbacks) but I'd say there are many that are most likely significant deviations:

 

1.  Moiraine in bath.  Of course, she probably does take baths in the books, but I think the voiceover is implying that she is dealing with the shielding/stilling that she suffered at the end of season 1.  Given that doesn't happen in the book, this looks like a new scene.

2.  Lady in blood.  Not sure what this is, of course, but it doesn't seem to be something that happens in the book.  

3.  Rand meets Siuan.  They do meet in the books, but due to the way season 1 ended, we're not really set up for their meeting to happen like it did in the books.  I suspect this will be a deviation.  Also, if Rand makes it to the White Tower again, something has gone very different.  

4.  Rand with his hand at Moiraine's throat.  Hard to say what this is and maybe it's just a dramatic gesture during a conversation, but I don't remember book Rand violently threatening Moiraine, so this kind of seems like a difference.

5. Rand meets Logain.  Unless I am forgetting something, Rand doesn't have a conversation with Logain until much later in the story.  They aren't in the same place during any of the events of the next few books.  

6. Ishamael with Suroth or other member of the Seanchan high blood.  These characters just don't interact in the books.  

7.  Siuan kisses Moiraine, Perrin meets little girl.  These may be dreams and/or flashbacks.  But if not, they are likely deviations.  

8.  Rand on wheel. Likely in Tel, but otherwise a deviation. 

 

ok, some of those are legit things i didn't notice, but for others you're grasping at straws

1 is fallout from the first season

2 i interpret it as a forsaken waking up. could be anything, really.

3 you yourself say the meet in the books

4 ok, not in the book, but their conflict was there and was real - especially in book 3, and we know S2 will incorporate elements of book 3. so i wouldn't call it a big deviation until we see the full scene

5 ok, i forgot about this.

6 ok, i forgot about this. though semirhage ended up with the seanchan elite, but even then it's much earlier, another point i concede

7 moiraine and siuan do meet in book 2, and while in the books they were no longer lovers, in the tv show they still are. if that's the equivalent of the meeting in fal dara, and m&s are kissing instead of just being friendly, i don't count it as a deviation. fallout from S1 in the worst case

7b perrin with girl i really assume it is a flashback or dream. although they could have moved the return to the two rivers already to S2

8 i mentioned that already.

So, only 3 scenes that are unequivocal deviations from the books. of which one (a foresaken among the seanchan elite) is totally in line with book facts anyway. the only big change i see there is rand meeting logain so early.
but then, we know bigger changes are there. they have to condense books 2 and 3 in a single season. in the books, rand would travel chasing the horn, to cahirien, then by portal to falme. the girls train in the white tower, then they get themselves kidnapped and also end on falme.

then (off panel) rand goes to a secluded valley in the mountains of mist, while the girls and mat return to the white tower. the girls leave for tear, meet aviendha. rand flees alone. the others chase him. the whole party meets back in tear.

seems too much stuff for one season, so I fully expect to see a much straightened version of this. we may even see callandor in falme instead of tear, with the two book endings merged into one.

tldr: trying to gauge how faithful this second season will be to the books is probably an excercice in futility

there's lots of scenes recognizable from the books in this trailer. at least, I can't think of any scene that's clearly not in the book (EDIT: I forgot rand tied to the wheel). compared with the trailer for S1, which started with egwene being pushed into the river, this would suggest greater aderence to books.

on the other hand, we know they have to change more than they did in S1 because of ripple effects of the changes. not that I complain; as long as they keep the major points and the character arcs, they can make as many changes as they need. but it does suggest an attempt to stay closer to the books when possible

I find both weird and fascinating that some people put so much importance on background music.

as far as I'm concerned, I like the music, it fits the ominous vibe of the story, and that's all.

by the way, I tried listening to the actual song and didn't like it. for the trailer they used some kind of resounding effect that makes all the difference.

you can see how little I understand music by how I stumble with terminology.

1 hour ago, Gary Again said:

 

 

It's going to be tough to do Perrin and the wolves but I don't mind the way they are approaching it. I think it would be cool if instead of words they show images and sounds kind of how they described it in the book. Like the wolf didn't say their name was dapple it was the way sunlight shined through the leaves in a quiet forest, just show that as a series of images and the sound of a peaceful forest as they communicate. 

Imegine the scene.

Perrin and a wolf stare at each other. Then random images start passing in front of the screen.

I think it would be extremely confusing, and would not be appreciated

11 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I magnified the image, but I still see a single seat where you labeled 5 and 6. then again, other people are accepting it, and it would make sense for them to be 13 anyway, so I assume it's just me and the dark image.

on a side note, why fantasy has to be so dark? it's like ever since game of trones people decided the best way to show it's serious fantasy is to have everything in muted colors.

I was outside when the trailer was released, and I literally could not see half of the scenes. I had to go back home in a dark room before I could make out details.

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

A bad song can really take you out of a trailer huh

 

that background song gave me chills. "i'm bigger than this world". makes me feel the weight of rand's responsibilities.

by the way, I can't make out one word in it, so I take the chance to ask:

"I'm bigger than my body

I'm bigger than my ______

I'm bigger than this world"

can someone tell me what's the word I can't understand? thanks

0:23 seems a darkfriend covenant, but there are 12 seats

0:46 could she be lanfear trying to woo rand?

1:07 is that logain? they brought him back? nice

1:24 looks like perrin with one of his sisters. did they move the return to the two rivers early? more likely a flashback

1:25 siuan and moiraine. they look younger, so it could be a flashback? but we have other scenes with them, so the two are meeting and it could be the present

1:30 looks like out only image of elayne in the trailer

Quote

The Wheel of Time season two trailer will debut at 6:00 a.m. PT/9:00 a.m. ET on Wednesday, July 19.

😍😍😍

They improved the art for the weaves, apparently.

only 45 days for release, can't be too long for a trailer

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Not according to the 3 books in the series that I've read and everything that I've found online. 

 

Lews Therin Telamon, in the books, was, to my knowledge, labeled The Dragon posthumously and all prophecies regarding him apply specifically to him being reincarnated in the future relative to when he lived, whereas in the show, he was specifically referred to as The Dragon Reborn while still alive.

ah, you mean that. so you are right. but i'm not wrong either. so calling ltt the dragon reborn is correct, although they didn't call him that in the books

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

The TV show changed Robert Jordan's underlying lore so that A) Lews Therin Telamon was himself the reincarnation of an earlier Dragon

 

that is book lore too. there is no beginning or ending to the wheel of time, so there were infinite reincarnations of the dragon

7 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

 I don’t recall anything about that in the source material, does anyone know what that’s about?

it's not in the books

Quote

Maybe the show is going to give him a LTT equivalent in his arc?

seems likely, yes. also the man gentled in the first scene had a voice in his head talking to him. I say it's a great way to keep suspence on whether rand is going mad or not

3 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Ok thank you for your input! I think your point about book mechanics are not always comparable to show canon is a good thing to remember. I think my confusion was based on my limited understanding and interpretation of instances in the books where tying off a weave would eventually wear off or weaken if the weaver left it alone. 
 

I have read the books, by the way, so spoilers are ok. My questions are based on my limited exposure from only one full read through. 

in that case, weaves could be tied so they would dissipate over time, or so that they would stay. the weaves around rhuidean are one examples of waves active after 3000 years

14 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

In the last episode moiraine masks the bond so lan doesn’t follow her to the eye. Or something like that. Then she is cut off from being able to touch the OP. When lan finds her he is relieved that she is alive meaning the masking of the bond is apparently still in effect. I had been under the impression that any weave that is created has to be upheld to some degree by the channeler, such as maintaining a shield. I know that weaves can be tied off as a way of avoiding having to maintain it, but I don’t recall if tying it off would maintain the weave indefinitely. I assumed that if a channeler is shielded then they can’t access the source therefore any weaves in progress would dissolve meaning lan would have regained awareness of the bond. Can someone explain the mechanism behind the mask remaining intact without moiraine channeling to maintain it?

if you tie a wave, it stays there. there are plenty of waves from the age of legends still around, like the ones in [spoiler, not sure you read the books]. the people who made them are long dead, but the waves remain.

on the other hand, stilling would send lan into the death spiral, just like the death of the aes sedai.

but then, several details have been changed from the books. for example, in the tv show you can overdraw while in a circle, while in books you cannot. and women can feel their strenght just by being close, while in the tv show they cannot - moiraine didn't knew nynaeve was stronger than egwene until she channeled.

so, don't overanalyze what can or cannot be done with the one power according to book lore; the tv show made some changes, and I'll be fine with them as long as they stay consistent

58 minutes ago, Samt said:

 

 

It's not like modern romance literature gets much respect.  On the average, it probably gets more disdain than fantasy.  

I was thinking more of a comparison with popular movie genres. like superhero movies, which as far as I can tell are full of the worst traits of bad fantasy but appear to be incredibly popular nonetheless.

yeah, it's kinda weird because if we go by any definition of fantasy, big classics like the iliad or odyssey are fantasy, with magic and god interventions. shakespeare is fantasy, with ghosts and fairies and such.  and yet you'll find plenty of "intellectuals" praising those great classics while dismissing fantasy as stupid and childlike.

It really does seem like prejudice is at work here; apparently mainstream and critics like fantasy as long as it's not labeled as such.

1 hour ago, CaddySedai said:

Which is mind boggling to me as one would think that its a match made in imagination heaven lol. 

actually, the few successful fantasy shows underlined the problems.

fantasy's main strenght is worldbuilding. it's what divides it from other forms of fiction. but worldbuilding requires a lot of time, and movies don't have that. sci-fi also has a similar issue, but less so; you can put people in a spaceship without having to explain it; take for example star wars, while it has a huge worldbuilding detailed in dozens of books of the expanded universe (don't ask me about canon, I'm not an expert), the movies themselves have very little of it.

take a fantasy, lower the magic because of limited special effect budget, handwave most worldbuilding because you don't have the screentime to deliver it... you get something like the wot tv show. which has mixed receptions, but in any case has big limitations compared to the book.

then, if you go specifically into big sagas, it gets even more complicated. a lone writer in his room can take his time, make revisions, polish the plot. He can have a few assistants to find and smooth out possible plot holes.

try to convey that into tv form, it collapses. main actors may become unavailable. you work on a tight deadline, you can't just delay your production to smoothen the plot because everyone has already been hired for filming in advance. and if you need to change something afterwards, you can't just hire everyone and put them back on set.

as such, tv shows tend to have much less coherent plots - because you have many more interferences.

so, making good fantasy adaptations (or original works) is very, very hard.

I wonder if jain will even be included in the tv show at all. merging him with thom makes a lot of sense, since thom is more or less in the same places and can do all the same things.

2 hours ago, Samt said:

No, it hasn't been demonstrated.  Siuan and Moraine don't have sex in TEoTW.   The show added that.  They don't even have sex in New Spring.  Your assertion to the contrary is both delusional and condescending.  

so what? there's still plenty of canon that they had sex regularly for years and were romantically involved.

rand and egwene did not have sex in teotw - canonically, they never did.

perrin was given a wife.

and while I can agree or disagree with some of those changes, each one of them is clearly motivated by story reason. they want to externalize some points that in the books were internal. they want to show stuff that in the books is rendered through the internal processes of the characters.

siuan and moiraine is the same here. it moves forward a plot point that was made at the beginning of tgh, that M and S are very close and are conspiring together behind the rest of the tower. in the book, the fact that they were close was basically dropped exposition - something like "let's hope nobody in the tower remembers". upgrading their relationship is not a big change, and it does add drama and tension to the whole business. no bigger change than making rand and egwene closer than they ever were in the books.

look, I share your disliking for "box checking". I hate when something is marketed as "inclusive", because if you are using it as a selling point, it stops being inclusion and it becomes exploitation.

but that's not what happened here. the relationship makes sense for storytelling - there are reasons to include it. it is only a moderate change from established canon. Equally important, it was never used as marketing point. you don't get a shot of siuan and moiraine in the trailer; you don't hear rafe patting himself on the back on how progressive he was in putting that homosexual relationship.

It is not "just inserted for box checking and/or fanservice".

and the exact details on how exactly close were M and S as novices, and how long they remained such, is irrelevant for such a discussion.

13 hours ago, psmith1990 said:

 

 

  Hide contents

 Frankly, if it does mean they also completely scrap the romantic relationships with Thom and Gareth (and the accompanying stripping away of much of their mission/power in service to those men), I will be THRILLED. 

 

what stripping of power in servico to those men? both moiraine and siuan are the important person in the relationship, with the man being her warder. even gareth, a mighty general, ultimately is an aes sedai underling.

ok, siuan has to do menial work for bryne, I never considered how that can be seen by somebody as "putting women in their place - the kitchen". i've always seen it as just an indication that both siuan and gareth put a lot of stock into one's word. in any case, siuan's mission and power are not stripped in the slightest.

13 hours ago, Samt said:

It’s tawdry and gross because it’s clearly a sex scene for the sake of having a lesbian sex scene.

 

No, it's not. others have given details.

9 hours ago, Samt said:

Like I said, canonically queer is a bit of a stretch. There is a passing hint that the characters experimented sexually as teenagers, years before the prequel and decades before the main story.

"experimented sexually" would be appropriate if they had sex a couple times. it could pass as appropriate if it was just sex, considering aes sedai novices are kept away from men and some homosexual experimentation is normal in those circumstances (cfr. prisons).

but that's not the case here. siuan and moiraine have been extremely close for all of their years as novices and accepted (total 10 years, iirc), and they've been sharing a bed through most of that time.

You could argue that they were not lovers but best friends forever superplus who also had sex regularly, but I would argue that the two are basically the same thing.

so, queer.