6 minutes ago, Windigo said:

I thought the montage of Egwene in her cell did a really good job at showing the passage of time without being just flashes of cut scenes. They already IMO use too many fast scene breaks and camera cuts that make things hard to follow, if they tried to do similar for time passage I think it might be even more confusing.  

 

But the problem with that was, egwene could not drink, because she could not get near the brooch.

So, while the show did great in giving the impression that weeks passed, it could not have been more than a couple of days

13 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Wow, Warders really never win a fight, they suck lol" 

Actually, the show does a decent job showing warders as good fighters. Whenever they are put against regular foes - Lan vs trollocs, bunch of warders vs logain's army, ryma's warder vs seanchan soldiers - they do kick major asses. 

Yes, Lan basically failed at evrything so far, but always against overwhelming odds.

EDIT: I took @HeavyHalfMoonBlade suggestion and capitalized Lan properly

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

You mentioned One Piece.

You said the subtitles matched.

I assume you meant the English subtitles match the English words, or that the Italian subtitles matched what was being said in English.

 

What I meant in context of One Piece not being an "international dub" was that it's original language was English, it's subtitles were originally English. So it' doesn't suffer the same English subs not matching with the English sound track.

 

I meant I watch it in italian, with italian subtitles. just like I watch wot in italian, with italian subtitles (i find subtitles of a different language than the audio to be confusing). and for both shows the original language is english. so, same situation for both.

but in one piece, the italian subtitles match the italian dubs. in wot, italian subtitles and dubs do not match.

25 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That's not an example of an international dub with subtitles.

 

Go watch Ragnarok on Netflix with English Dub and English Subtitles.

Any time the "original" language is different, the subtitles are never going to be a 1:1 match from one language to another.
You can pretty much see this on any Anime where it's original language is Japanese. It was first subbed in english, and then later dubbed in English. The English subs almost never match the English dubs...

how is that not an example of international dub?

maybe for you it wasn't, because it was made in english first. but i still watch it in italian.

in the wheel of time, many characters go from zero to hero. they often do through training during time skips.

just in the current season, rand will have to learn the sword and the power. the girls spent months in training in tar valon, and now egwene will be trained in warfare as damane. yet we are not getting a feeling for this. we have exactly one scene of training in the tower. and so far, rand talking to a swordmaster once.

anyone else thinking that some training montage sequences to show the main characters spending a lot of time practicing would help immensely to convey the message "this character spent a few months practicing, expect a power up next time you see him"?

16 hours ago, Guire said:

With all the great development of Liandrin and the lack of Ingtar build up so far, is anyone else hoping we get a surprise Last Embrace swap with Nyn reciting her dads prayer to Liandrin.  I am down if they do.

it could absolutely work as a plot, and I would like it.

however, i do not think the show is going this direction. as others have said, there is little ingtar buildup, but enough of it to point there

11 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Welcome to the world of foreign Subtitles? lol

Shows that are dubbed in english are notorious for having a completely different text in english subtitles.

I've watched one piece, and the subtitles match. I don't know if it's a netflix vs primevideo thing

is someone else watching the show in another language with subtitles? I do, because i have soome troubles hearing dialogues sometimes. and I noticed in italian the subtitles don't match very well. the meaning is the same, but the words are all different. like, the dubbing team took the dialogues in english, translated them liberally trying to make them sound good and recorded them. then the subtitles team toook also the dialogue in english, without even checking how those dialogues sound in italian, and just made a word-for-word translation.

it's not a big deal for me - reading the dialogues i can get the meaning, and from that I can figure out the words I missed - but it is annoying.

2 hours ago, Windigo said:

Thing is you have a single healer who can not harm or kill others until her or her Warders's lives are at risk. Healing weaves are the ones she knows best and has strength in, when would she have ever learned anything else to the point she could react in a battle situation?
I think it was great foreshadowing and set up on how the oaths, focus on politics and the appearance of power and strength have made the White Tower weak and in many ways ineffective.  

and what are the damane doing in that time?

there were, like, 3 damane in place. they should have tried to shield ryma, to capture her. or maybe they could have used offensive waves. or cut at waves used by ryma. i saw none of that. ryma was killing a suldam - in very inefficient ways; even if you're not trained in combat, just throw fire around. if you're particularly weak with fire, throw air blades - and the others were not trying to shield her or stop her.

32 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Ryma could have killed more damane&sul'dam but decided to hurt as much as possible the one who killed Basan. That's tough

More in general, channeling in that fight was done poorly. Doesn't feel what sensible people would do.

The fight was overall good for its emotional impact, but it's very rare for magic fightd ro be well done

by the way, anyone else bothered by how damane can change their clothing? that chest piece that comes from the collar prevents it, and even assuming they do not wash, or they wash with the power, the clothes will still crumble over time. plus, they will need summer and winter gear.

it's pretty easy to explain, maybe that chest piece can be retracted by a suldam while keeping the collar. however, i would like to get an explanation.

23 minutes ago, Windigo said:

No, this is where I think the entire conversation and discussion is wrong on many levels, Most people do not understand there being anything but cruelty, and abuse and a deep wrongness to slavery. 

I have a hard time believing that. I think you misunderstand the distinction between the real thing and the play-pretend thing.

of course i would not want to actually own sex slaves, because morals. but having a girl do anything i say would be fun. just like having infinite money would be fun, but i would not rob a bank or scam people to get there. just like I would not want to wander around shooting people, but I enjoy fps videogames.

unless you mean the depiction of damane within the show. in that case yes, the egwene treatment has very little resemblance to how real people play the kink, because real people are nowhere near that harsh, because real people doing that stuff do not hurt each other for real. just like real slavery has very little resemblance with what is actually done in the kink community. just like people cosplaying as roman legionaries and putting up mock fights has little resemblance with actual warfare.

19 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@king of nowhere I wasn't trying to glorify or downplay the horror or trauma of what this episode showed by admitting that I associated elements of it with Dom/Sub kinks; it was intended to be a simple observation that ended up going further afield than I anticipated.

I wasn't trying to pass up any kind of judgment, or to be offended, or anything like that. I merely wanted to rationally explain the actual relationship between those kink elements and the actual thing, from a psycological and historical perspective.

41 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 the show using aspects that I personally associated with that kink in its depiction of damane training.

i didn't want to touch that particular discussion, but i've seen nobody offer a clear depiction of the reationship of the kink with actual slavery, so I will

yes, there are aspects of breaking a recalcitrant slave that are associated with bdsm.

but the correlation is reverse. it's bdsm that took inspiration from slavery, so it's all natural that some elements would be somewhat similar.

seeing someone associate damane training with that... well, it's like someone saw a war and said "look, they really took inspiration from call of duty (or other similar fps videogames) to make that". no, it's the videogame that took inspiration from war, to let you live the exciting parts (challenge, adrenaline rush) without the negatives (people getting killed for real). in fact, mistaking the real war for the videogame would be offensive both for those running a real war, and for those playing videogames.

this example applies to bdsm on many levels.

I think everyone can understand the thrill of being a master. owning a beautiful sex slave and doing all you want with him/her, if you don't have moral issues with the thing, of course it's fun.

it's harder to explain it from a submissive perspective; however, some people also find the idea of having no control, of having that person who will do who-knows-what with them, to be exciting - as long as, deep down, they feel safe. this is an important distinction; trust is even more important in that kind of relationship than it is in a normal relationship. and while a submissive may like to be tied up and whipped by their partner, they would not like being kidnapped by strangers and subject to the same treatment.

There are also those who get a thrill by being insulted/humiliated, or by being in pain, but I am not into those specific subcategories, I don't understand them as well as the power dinamics, and I won't go into detail. ok, actually I do understand the pain part; when you are very excited, the brain can shortcut some mechanisms, and can register mild pain as extra excitement. I once accidentally wounded myself during sexual activity, and I didn't realize it until afterwards.

anyway, I say that to try and clarify why, though slavery was horrible, some aspects of it can be enticing, and some people may want to roleplay those aspects, in a safe environment. Just in the same way that war is horrible, but it has some enticing aspects, and so some people roleplay it for that, in a safe environment.

And that's why some things encountered in slavery are also used in the kink community. But that doesn't mean that a book/movie depicting slavery has anything to do with bdsm, despite displaying several similarities; it's that both the movie and the kink are partial depiction of the same thing. just in the same way that a war movie has nothing to do with a war videogame - or with larpg - but both of them are partial depictions of the same thing.

3 hours ago, Cipher said:

 No doubt there have been murath damane who immediately followed orders and did what the sul’dam required.  I believe under those conditions the suldam obtain obedience and then order the damane to strike them with the pitcher.  It ends up being a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.  So the compliant damane will still suffer tremendous pain and learn the lesson of what results from violent rebellion.

nah, it wouldn't be nowhere near as bad for her. she is ordered to strike the suldam. she can't grab the picther. then she is ordered to pour water. she grabs the pitcher immediately. because she never had any desire to use it as weapon anyway. so she would only suffer for a little bit.

as a rule of thumb, seanchan are extra brutal in enforcing obedience, but they are kind with those who obey. I don't think the whole 14 books contain a single instance of seanchan using violence against those who submit and obey; I don't think they contain a single line to support the notion.

in fact, seanchan dominion is so effective because of how effectively they wield the stick and carrot. they have a very big stick, but they also have a big carrot. it's amazing that, while in a realistic cetralized dictatorship the ones in power are scheming bastards who only care about keeping power, seanchan has a ruling class of scheming bastards who put power before everything, but who also take seriously their duty to provide security and prosperity for the people. probably comes from their culture putting so much emphasis on duty.

So there's no reason to assume damane would be exceptions. those who submit are treated with kindness. those who resist are treated brutally. egwene resisted harder, so she got extra brutality.

Am i the only one worried about the kind of spambots we could attract with all those sex discussions?

5 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Even though people have been focusing on the sexual component of BDSM as a way to deny that what we saw in any way resembles that lifestyle/kink, I was and remain focused on the 'carrot and stick' aspects of said lifestyle/kink which are very much present and used in conjunction with the outright and unbridled physical violence that was characteristic of the way that Masters and/or Overseers treated slaves historically.

 

To use a few specific examples of how what we saw fits into BDSM, you have, in no particular order, 1) the 'I see no reason not to let you keep your name', 2) the cajoling/caressing, and 3) the closing 'good girl' remark

so what? carrot and stick is a component of every social interaction. your boss will give you promotions for good behavior and demotions for bad behavior, it does not mean you are in a bdsm relation with your boss. you may slap your dog for peeing on the floor, but it does not make you in a bdsm relatioinship with your dog.

in the past, corporal punishment for misbehaving kids were commonplace, both in the faily and in school. it does not mean every parent had a bdsm relationship with his children, every teacher with his students.

carrot and stick is simply an attempt to influence behavior, and violence is simply a bigger stick - one that our modern western society mostly tries to avoid, but that has been prevalent in many other uses.

ever since fifty shades has brought that kink to the general public, there's people who see it everywhere. no. just because someone is slapping someone else, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. just because someone is trying to coerce someone else into changing behavior, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. please. stop. seeing. it. everywhere!

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but there is the pleasure/reward possibility as well, and that is what makes the collar so frightening.

yes indeed.

and there is also the natural tendency to try to make the best of your situation. you can't do anything about being damane, so you try to get as comfortable a life as possible in the circumstance. you try to get rewards and avoid punishment, because punishment sucks and rewards make your life better. eventually you stop thinking about it and you behave by habit.

perhaps you start buying into the seanchan system of values. by virtue of repetition, you end up believing that the seanchan empire is a great wonderful thing and you should try hard to enforce it, because this gives a value to your life, and believing that your life has value is a fundamental human need. those that end up there are the best damane, those that even if freed may keep fighting for the empire.

And that goal is better reached by using violence as little as possible. it's easier to persuade a damane to love the empire by telling her of how evil were uncollared aes sedai, power corrupts and we are protecting you from that corruption, and how her channeling potential is used for the good of all, she should be proud of that.

In fact, looking at the history of slavery, we find plenty of examples of slaves that got along with their masters, were happy in slavery, never tried to escape even when they could, and they all have two common things: the slave was well treated, and the slave had a personal stake in things. the slave that was put to raise the children of the master often ended up like a surrogate mother, and was treated like a family member. in turn, she had an easier life than other slaves. on the other hand, I've never read of slaves that were beaten extra hard and ended up loving their captors. they may be frightened into compliance, but never made loial.

the books themselves also support this: renna is marked as a particularly harsh suldam even by other suldam. tuon is a great suldam because she does not mistreat her damane. though she has it easier by playing good cop / bad cop with renna.

by the way, I think it was also mentioned in the books that ryma was dieing before being taken by tuon, and even other suldam had given up on her, which again shows that people with exceptionally strong willpower can resist the adam to some extent. and, ryma being a good person, kindness was more effective in winning her loialty.

it's just that, put all of that together, and it's really, really, really rare for someone to retain that spark of rebellion - or to even want to.

but the whole tangent started on whether egwene would have been broken. she would have certainly been beated into compliance, but even then, if some years later she was offered the chance to take part in a prisoner exchange, she would have retained enough of herself to want freedom again.

12 minutes ago, Meskell said:

None of the second half of your post is possible with the adam. The suldam decides when the damane embraces the source, decides exactly what happens once the source is embraced and decides once the damane is to pull away from the source. 
 

There is no possibility of self rescue, resistance or causing accidents. The domination is whole and complete at all times. 

as far as I understand it, it is not.

the adam creates a link, with the suldam in control. a woman trained in channeling can use the adam to take the power of the other woman and channel it herself, very neat. it happens later in the book, and (staying vague to avoid spoiler tags) there is no need for the trained woman to coerce the prisoner.

but suldam are not trained in the power, it is unthinkable for them to believe they can channel. so they tell the damane to strike, but the damane are the ones trained. renna trains egwene in striking trees, she would not need to do that if the suldam could just decide what happens when the source is embraced.

I don't think the book has a clear-cut answer to this specific detail; however, everything about damane points in that direction. damane are trained and mentally broken. if the suldam was capable of just doing anything, that process would not need. damane would not be trained, they would be stored as batteries. nobody would care about them learning to use their waves, and nobody would care about instilling obedience in them. they do put so much effort into training because damane are controlling their own weaves, and they put so much effort into obedience because in most activities damane are coerced, not compelled. they can't hurt themselves, but they can decide to channel or not, or how they do it.

in the book, renna tell egwene to strike the tree. egwene refuses. renna hurts egwene. what renna pointedly does not do is embrace the source through egwene and direct the flows herself.

6 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think that underestimates the sul'dam and the a'dam. They are not naive, and have broken hundreds of marath'damane 

Have they? by book lore suldam have experience with dozens of damane, just like a teacher has schooled hundreds of kids, but i realized just yesterday it's actually a plot hole - though not an important one. the teacher-kid thing only works because there are many more kids than teachers.

we know, both by lore and by the very mechanics of who can learn to channel, that there are more suldam than damane. so how the hell can every suldam train many damane? the math does not fit. if there are 50 suldam and 10 damane, it means that 10 suldam will have trained one single damane, and 40 suldam will have no training experience.

ok, we know that the suldam take turns, but still, each one of them will have only taken part of a training of a single damane.

plus, suldam are used to seanchan damane, where it is culturally accepted that's the fate of channeling women. i think most seanchan damane never needed to be hurt in the first place. as a teacher, let me assure you it's completely different having recalcitrant kids, but who ultimately accept your authority and what you are doing, and kids who refuse you entirely. a lifetime of training with the first type of kids does not make you an expert with the second - in fact, it would actually give you all kind of habits that only work with the first kind of kids.

realistically, only a handful of sul'dam in the whole empire would know what to do with someone like egwene. though, admittedly, having a control weapon like the a'dam helps immensely.

Quote

 So that would mean that you could not think of hurting yourself with the power or you would be prevented from touching the source as long as you thought of it as a way hurting yourself, even potentially.

 

if that leaves me unable to channel during a battle when my captors are relying on me, it's already a win.

Quote

because through the a'dam they can read your feelings at least if not your thoughts, and if they tell you to be happy about your new name you have to be, or they will know, and punish you without end until you really are happy.

how would that work? they keep hurting me... until  am happy? hurting me more only makes me hate them more. so either they will accidentally kill me, or they will make me go insane. and then i'd be a lot less valuable.

what happens is that they hurt me until i give in with whatever they ask. there is even a chapter in the book from the pov of a sul'dam, where she notes that what happens is that they get used to obey, and afraid of disobeying, until they don't think of it anymore.

if all that wasn't enough, we have alivia. alivia was a damane for centuries, but the moment she was free she quickly threw off her damane conditioning. she was beaten into compliance, and she remained compliant for centuries, but she was not broken, not completely.

by the way, I know they want to make egwene look badass by spitting in the face of torturers, but am I the only who think she comes across as stupid instead?

I'm talking specifically of her refusing to give her name at first, both to renna and to valde before her.

the fact is, they are obviously serious about hurting you, and they are asking for nothing special. as long as they don't ask you to do anything against your core values - like betraying your friends, or submitting to elaida - it seems to me the smart thing would be to go along with it. valda may just be satisfied with the answers you give and let you go. renna wants to train you to fight with the one power, which would be useful training to be had anyway once your friends - who you know are about - will free you.

at least try to assess the situation. she doesn't even know what valda or the seanchan want from her. 

she only marks herself for special treatment this way. letting the enemy think you cowed while you bide your time seem a better way to escape. it's what loial is doing.

11 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It seems silly to kwibble about such points, but Egwene will be broken if not rescued. That is the point, you cannot resist.

 

The show might try to make it look like Egwene is resisting or overcoming it, but that would be selling the horror of the situation short. Egwene is completely dependent on outside help to escape, and she needs it quickly before she is completely broken.

I disagree on the fine point of being "broken". sure, she cannot escape on her own, that does not mean she is broken. she cannot hurt the suldam, but she can still disobey.

if I were in that situation, i would do all the suldam ask of me, until i am brought to battle. then in battle I would try to cause some "accidental" friendly fire accidents. or possibly try to kill myself by using weaves that make a lot of shrapnel close to me. if it's not possible, just refuse to channel at a critical moment; i can't resist torture forever, but i may resist it long enough to alter the outcome of a fight. iirc about the adam, the leash holder could force the prisoner to channel, but the suldam don't train to channel, don't even know they can channel themselves, and therefore wouldn't be able to do it.

even if none of that is possible, one can avoid being broken by staying themselves. most damane reached the point where they didn't want to be freed, even when actually rescued. you can be a prisoner with no ability to help yourself, but you can still hope for rescue, you can keep resenting your captors.

13 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Much the same as the interactions with some of the other Seanchan "exotics" and their handlers (morat') - pity they do not have the CGI budget to show these for comparison.

they can skip grolm and torm and those kinds, but seanchan are not the same without raken. i really hope they get included

45 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

She hasn’t taken the oaths yet tho. 

29 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

One could go pedantic and argue that in a round about way, Liandrin has made a weapon of the one power, via enslaving Egwene and turning her into a weapon via the Seanchan.

 

aww, guys. did my poor joke really deserve to be killed this way?

wait, nobody is speaking of the incredible revelation of this episode!

when ryma asked if liandrin broke the oaths, elayne said "all of them". she lied, she used the power as a weapon outside of self-defence, but the third?

clearly it means liandrin has rediscovered how to craft power-wrought weapons! and she has crafted weapons off scene.

either that, or elayne lied, which means in this version of the story elayne is a darkfriend

🤣

1 hour ago, Vartija said:

For me it was kind of obvious Maigan was going to be there. I thought this ever since she was dispatched to find out what was going on in the coast back in Season 1. Then she appeared in the "previously on" and was hinted at with the blue ring and "sitter being taken"-line during the episode. I just thought the final line was kind of heavy handed. It felt more like purposeful explaining rather than something she'd naturally say in that position.   

i mostly forgot about maigan at this point.

but what fooled me most was translation. I read the books in english, but i'm watching the show in italian - because i'm less good at listening than at reading. and in italian, they translated sitter in a strange way - it sounds more like "gatherer". so I did not recognize the sitter title, and that contributed in not recognizing maigan until she spoke her line

28 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Minor quibble about it: I thought the final scene with Maigan could have been done better. We didn't need to be told "I was a Sitter of the Blue Ajah". They already established that in the episode and in that scene it came off like needlessly reminding the viewers. I think it would have been more striking if Maigan had acted more like she's already forgotten that part of her past. We would still have been able to connect the dots by recognizing her face.

 

some of us are pretty bad at recognizing faces. i didn't recognize her until she said it, so for me it was necessary.

i knew what happens in the book, so i was ready to see egwene tortured, but the end was heart-wrenching anyway.

in the books we don't see ryma captured, and we don't get to see her and her warder before her capture. that made it extra heart-wrenching.

we don't see what happens to the damane after she kills the suldam. did the damane die of adam-transfered pain? did she live? could be relevant for escaping an adam