On 10/13/2023 at 4:21 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

I have to bet no at this point. If and until Amazon commits to the 8 season run, I have to think the showrunners will continue to downplay Min's visions and the various Prophecies of the Dragon / Rhuidean / Finns.  Since the showrunners do not know how they are going to get from A to B yet in later seasons, they can't include prophecies that they aren't going to be able to meet later. 

Rafe has planned out an 8 season arc and has not changed that, season 3 is being made with the intention that the 8 seasons arc remains. So at this point in time I don’t see that changing. 

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I get what you're saying, but it's all the fat that has to be cut off the bone, with only 5-6 storylines being left, before they add back some new things to try and bridge the lore that makes me thing the cuts are going to be very deep.  So yep, it's the 6 main plotlines represented by the EF5 + Elayne, and cut off almost all the side branches and tertiary characters. 

 

Your Helm's Deep comparison is also apt, because we need to find run time for the major battle set pieces involving Perrin in the Two Rivers, Mat and Couladin at Cairhien, Dumai's Wells, The War at the Tower, Tarmon Gaidon, and maybe one of Rand's battle with the Seanchan (in Arad Doman?),  Perrin with the Shaido, or the Compulsed Borderlander fights , dpeending on how big the fight at the cleansing is. Each of those would be half to most of an episode each (only minor inserts for dramatic tension) and big chunks of the seasons budgets. And I expect TG to be the last 3 episodes of the show (Tuon leaving, Egwene leaving, the Pipe). So there's almost a season worth of combat across the remaining 6 years. Because it's Helms Deep or Battle of the Bastards they'll be compared to.

 

I'm along for the ride, don't get be wrong, but I'm torn - I don't know if it's better than them to cut more entire plotlines, and leave time for the rest to breathe, or for them to try and keep as much as they can, but create a rushed, unearned feeling in their emotional payoffs.  I'll use Elaida as an example - how much screen time do you think we'll get from her as Amyrlin? 20 min? 30 min? over 4 seasons? She can do a lot, but earning her outcome is going to be very difficult. So is it just better to show her sit down as Amyrlin and not again until Egwene is captured, or should they show what's happening inside so we know Egwene is justified? Decisions decisions...

I loved season 2 but at this moment in time am not convinced we will have anything to match the quality of battle of the bastards, or the battle of Hardhome (for me one of the best battle scenes in GOT for how it just kept that dead man walking tension). 
 

The writers and directors seem to be wanting to represent large battles with small scale fights and that just doesn’t show the scale of the large battles we will have coming up. Rafe needs the budget, and directors who can plan and shoot large scale battles. 

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

i see, you don't like sanderson so you don't like anything he does. and you ascribe the worst motivations to him.

seriously, he's sold tens of millions of books. do you really think he would need to hijack a commentary on a tv show to try and win some popularity? the man has a lot of integrity anyway - or if he doesn't, he bluffs extremely, extremely well.
finally, while you are free to dislike brandon sanderson, you certainly cannot say that you do not rate him as a writer. he is perhaps the most popular fantasy writer of the moment, and not just in some specific demographics. his general skill is beyond doubt

50 shades sold millions of books, was that good writing? As did the twilight series it was based on, You like his work, I know many many people who like me don’t, someone can be a popular author and not a great writer. I generally don’t take book sales as a general view of skill.

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Criticism is not the same as thinking something is bad.
 

I also think Brandon’s manner of speaking makes it seem like he dislikes things more than he really does. 

I also accept my personal dislike for BS writing is coming through a bit here (migh tnot have noticed that lol) is why I removed the pick a lane comment, it was, hasty, :). But I do think that brandon is well aware what things like that watch along will do, and I think he is trying to get clicks and likes from a set of the fans that he knows will go chasing after the dog whistle a bit and get that clip lots of views. 

20 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Okay, now that I’ve had time to digest where we are now, and inspired by the LOTR discussion in another thread to look at the rate of adaptation, here’s what I think we’re faced with:

 

TLDR: We’re about to lose fully ½ of the content of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time.

 

Based on my book versions:

Page Count: (529 + 442+ 378 = 1349 pages for LOTR) and (657+ 577+ 577 = 1811 for EOTW, GH, TDR)

Run time (12 hours for LOTR extended, 16 for WoT)

We were at 1.874 pages per minute for LOTR and are at 1.886 pages per minute for WoT, which is close, and can be used to project.

At that rate, adapting WoT's 10,173 pages would require 90 hours of television in total, of which we’ve already got 16.  But we’ve only got 48 hours left.

So, assuming 48 remaining hours of TV, they need to lose 2,929 pages of content, or about 5 entire books, without ANY additions to fit everything in.

 

But if you add more Rafe created stuff in, you have to lose more. Let’s say they add an hour of fresh content per season, which means they need to lose another 679 pages of Jordan / Sanderson content – another book – from the run of the series.

 

So now we come to the tough question - how to lose 6 books worth of material:

 

Easy Cuts – the slog main plots – plot points must happen, but don’t need to take long:

Faile’s kidnapping

Mat with Tylin and Tuon

Egwene at Salidar

 

Easy Cuts – side plots - can lose without impacting character arcs or plot

Sea Folk and the Bowl of the Winds (substitute Callandor / Male A’dam)

Shara (substitute Black Tower corruption)
Far Madding

Be’lal, Bathamel, Aginor

Elayne and Nynaeve with the Circus

Morgase’s Journey

Thom Merrilin (Lan protects the cave)

Aran’gar / Osan’gar (hard, confusing, and politically sensitive)

 

Medium Cuts – the Forsaken plot consolidation:

Rahvin in Camelyn + Sammael in Illian (only getting 1)

Demandred in Shara and Taim with the Black Tower (only getting 1)

Mesaana in the Tower or Semirhage with the Seanchan (only one’s in the show, but which one?)

 

Medium Cuts – can remove, but need to consider implication:

The Kin storyline in Tanchico (need 1 non-Aes Sedai Channelling society, and someone for Nyn / Elayne to interact with looking for the MacGuffin)

Berelain / Faile (Faile deals with the ghost of a dead wife)

The Red Veils (I think the Shadow needs human soldiers)

Any non-trolloc monsters (Draghkar, Grolm, Raken) (too much SFX budget)

Tear or Illian (keep 1 - Rand needs a non-Aiel army beyond Cairhien)

Galad (would need Dain to forgive Perrin)

Birgitte (important to Nyn and Elayne’s character development)

 

Hard Cuts – material re-writes to major plot points required:

Siuan / Leanne / Logain’s journey to Salidar (stilling, healing, redemption, and politics)

The Aelfinn / Elfinn / Tower of Genji (Mat, getting Moiraine back)

Moiridin / Cyndane (they need at least one soul switch before the end)

The Borderlands Compulsion arc (become the King you were born to be, Mat assumes command)

The Camelyn Civil War (swap the balefire end of FoH for the end of the Civil War)

Egeanin (to show Seanchan aren’t all evil)

 

For those of us who enjoy the political machinations, or complex world building, or even nuance, we can forget it. The Axeman cometh...

I like these kind of numbers but I think you have to look at it slightly differently, you are comparing the telling of an entire story end to end (LOTR) to what is really just the opening chapter (WOT). 

I always consider the books up the the end of the battle of tear to equate the start of Fellowship up to the forming of the Fellowship itself in Rivendell. Finally at Tear we have a declared Dragon reborn, we have Matt and Perrin fully into the beginning arcs of abilities and skills (Perrin dream walking, Matt luck), the girls are firmly in place with there story, no more back and forth to the white tower for them, and so the adventure proper starts from book 4. Books 1-3 are really a prologue, in part because while writing them RJ didn't know what story he was writing, was it a one book thing, a trilogy, 4 books long. 

I also disagree that "adding stuff in" is leading to stuff being taken away, I think in reality Rafe is looking at the story as a whole, much like Peter Jackson did, and asking himself, "what has no relevance to the last battle and the EF5 journey to that point". The bowl of the winds is one of these, all the anciliary politics is another (I agree I love it, but we won't get it). 

Now when that fat is all cut off the meat of the real story needing to be told we lose stuff, lore, history, and so Rafe then creates scenes to allow that stuff to be added back in in a new format, he looks for threads across maybe 5-6 storylines and then tries to weave them into a succinct self contained thread for the TV show to get across that point clearly. Stepin was one of these, the Stepin arc is actually only on our screens for about 5-6 minutes but he is a plot reason to allow the characters to get to Tar Valon, to show the politics of the white tower, to get Logain into the show much earlier, to introduce us to Liandrin, and expose the viewer to aspects of the world we never see in book 1 but that are absolutely key to the story as a whole. That now means that those "scenes" that we get later on in the books explaining all of this are no longer needed so freeing up time later on that can be used for other things. 

In season 2 Moiraine was needed, first of all because she is not in book 2 but the audience needs to stay invested in her so the emotonal hit of what happens to her later really hits. The bond thing was important because again it is key not just to Lan's arc, but also to Rand and the last battle, so we have seen what happens when the bond is lost because of death, and the difference if the bond is removed (I think in season 1 Moiraine un bonded Lan rather then shielding, in season 2 we saw her re bond him), again that will be important at the last battle. 

SO this equivalence of "Rafe adds a thing so we lose a thing" is wrong, Rafe ads a thing in order to ensure the audience are shown key plot and lore points. 

I also think one of the biggest takeaways from LOTR is that something on the page that is maybe only 10 mins of read time (battle of Helms Deep) on screen needs far far far more time to give justice to. 

2 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

It is brought up again this time because it’s not just one opinion - this time there’s support from BS who is listed as a co-producer - that the writing is bad. 
 

So you can have your opinion - which is not supported by one of the foremost experts in the WoT (the person chosen to finish RJ’s work). And I can have my opinion that it’s mostly, poorly written - which is backed by Brandon Sanderson. 

Yes Brandon was chosen to finish the work, doesn't mean he did a good job, this forum is full of people who didn't like the final 3 books. BS also has come out, just hours after that on reddit and praised the show as excellent and the writers as doing a fantastic job. 

13 hours ago, Gypsum said:

It's just like horses in every movie, TV show, and book (including WOT) who act like furry cars that neigh a lot but don't act like, well, horses.

 

I had this thought the other day when my young mare got concerned by some guys on a 12ft high ladder painting a fence on the side of the road. Horse crossed the road, then stopped and stared at the fence. The 'freeze' is pretty SOP when a horse is worried by something. Oncoming traffic appeared while she was thinking about life choices, stopped for a second, then the first car in the line started rolling towards us, as if she could nudge us off the road. Horse started to jog forwards but would not cross the road, back towards the scary thing. Obviously! Idiot driver continued trying to push me out of their way, and I somehow wrestled the horse to the side, but it was a closer call than I would have liked. I was raging.

 

The point of this anecdote? I thought about it as I was reading A Crown of Swords and later watching something on tele. If the driver's only exposure to horses are books and film, it probably did not occur to them that they are spooky flight animals who get scared by dumb stuff, like a guy on a giant ladder. They are not like cars or bikes that go where you tell them. The person probably didn't have a clue why I was in the middle of the road.

 

In 14 books, do Robert Jordan's horses ever freeze, then spin and tank off in the opposite direction when their riders really want to get them through a Gateway? No, no they do not.  Would horses actually walk through a slash of silver light that opened a portal to another place in a relatively undramatic, straightforward manner. LOL.

 

Do better, writers and film directors.

 

/soapbox

I made the point in another thread, but I think if the humans of WOT had left it just up to the horses then the battle would have gone so much better, Dreadlords throw down fireballs, and create earthqaukes, Mydryall and Trollocs fight with soldiers on horseback, and the horses remain unhurt, able to be ridden into charge after charge after charge over and over again, or escaping to appear and save some fallen soldier at the last moment. if anything the pesky humans on there backs stop them by making them run away, or dying on top of them. 

Just now, RextheDog said:

 

to be fair, you could also frame this a brilliant framing from the showrunners....even though i can see you are not in the mood to concede such ground.

 

Rands grip on authority was ever so fickle.

 

in book form you can flesh it out....in show form, leaving such doubts out there as ' well not many people actually saw it happen' could be seen as good production. 

I means Rand declaration as the dragon in the books was so good Robert Jordan had him do it 3 times 🙂 

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Thank you. 
Egwene was not the main character of S2. She had the most emotionally impactful arc. But that doesn’t mean that the other characters - including Rand - did not have impactful arcs. 
 

Egwene will probably not get much to do in S3. Training with the Wise Ones will probably yield roughly the same screen time as Mat. 

And egwenes arc in the books is probably the most impactful long term arc of ay other character, I don't know any other WOT character (including Rand) who is as affected long term by a single event that happens to them as much as Egwenes time in the collar impacts her and decisions she makes right the way through the story. 

On 10/13/2023 at 9:02 AM, Gothic Flame said:

I think Sanderson felt he had to clear the air and come firmly to the side of the "bookcloaks."

I think Sanderson thinks he wants to stay "relevant" in regards to WOT, and has decided that being the opposing voice to the show is the best way to sell more of his own books. I also think, before he goes questioning other peoples writing he should really look at his own. I personally do not rate him as a writer, I love that someone finished the final 3 books, I also rate the final 3 books as a disappointment. 

Remember this is the man who suddenly popped his head over the parapet as season 1 was happening and dropped the "lanfer and Nakomi" bombs in an attempt to try and prove what a clever writer he was that he tricked us all. 

I get his name is on the product, but, he is also being very 2 faced in his approach to this take the following from himself on Reddit. 


 

Quote

Rafe has always told me I can say what I feel I need to, and it's one of the things I most appreciate about this all. I'm surprised people would even have those rumors, after I did multiple podcast episodes talking very bluntly about season one. Nobody involved ever asked me to be quiet.

Let's be very clear, for the record, that I do not hate Season Two. Even if the scripts had been filmed as I read them, I would think it an improvement on Season One. And I know they made some revisions, which have largely been improvements. I liked Season One. This season is better.

There is a lot that is great. Nynaeve's accepted test--and, indeed, a lot of the Wonder Girls up until episode eight. All of the antagonists are wonderful. The stuff with Perrin/Valda/Hopper in episode eight was great. I came around on what was happening with Rand in the early episodes, and really ended up liking it.

At the same time, people need to understand: I have a stake in this they do not. My name is LITERALLY on this product. And so, it being weak in areas that are important to me is something that I find a bigger worry in it than I might in another show.

If you play loose and free with magic systems, then that reflects badly on me--as this is one of my specialties, and people will watch and be annoyed about things that I really, in a perfect world, should have been able to help the writers fix. I consider one of my other big strengths to be character arcs with powerful resolutions, and both seasons have really had troubles with this in the last episodes. That reflects on me, because having me involved should be able to help with this.

If I'm more critical of WoT, it's not because it's bad. Indeed, it's looking stronger than a lot of fantasy television, this season. However, once again, my name is on it. Even if I weren't a producer, my name is on some of the books. I feel more passionate about some of these weaknesses than I might when it comes to another property.

I also hold Rafe, and the writers, in very high regard for the difficult job they are doing quite well.

None of that view comes across in the watch along, none of that is expressed clearly I also disagree that he stuck to the "rules of the magic in the world" he overpowered Rand to a stupid level, seeing the "dark mark" on anyone, appearing as a burning bright light to the followers of the dark. I loved what he did with gateways, the different ways they could be used but that was about all he did with the magic system that I loved. 

26 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

And it will be repeated so long as we have TV, movies, and literature. There's something powerful and addictive to writers about the plot device that makes the character seem as if they are in mortal danger, even though the viewer/readers knows, at a logical level, that they are not because the show/book would not continue without them.

 

This was one of the best things about GOT, the author had no concerns with killing off a main character meaning that you could not really trust of your fav character really was safe. Real stakes, felt by both the characters but also the reader. 

29 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Which even BS admitted, maybe it’s the Nihilistic Ishy and he just wants to die. That’s the only thing that would make it,  not bad writing. But here’s why that is weak: BS has been consulted and read the scripts multiple times (and he did not think they had thought it through.)
So it’s more likely the writing room went like this: 

 

Writer 1: Egwene is our main character for S2, right? 
Rafe: Yes. It would have been so much better if she was the Dragon - we want to show that she is super powerful. 
Writer 2: So how about Egwene frees herself of the A’dam? 
Writer 1: Brandon said that’s impossible in the metaphysics of the book - and makes the whole point of the A’dam less horrifying. 
Rafe: Mmmm - I like it though. Let’s do it. 
Writer 2: and then Rand shows up a minute after that and says, “I came to free you, but it looks like you didn’t need it.” 
Writer 1: But doesn’t that make Rand’s whole arc kind of pointless? And then why did we have Nynaeve & Elayne capture that one Suldam? Doesn’t it make their arc useless? 
Rafe: mmm - but I like it. Egwene is the best. 
Writer 1: Didn’t Brandon say that a huge point of the WoT is that our heroes can’t do it alone & that’s the point of the a’dam arc? 
Rafe: Forget Brandon. This is drama at its best. Writer 2 - go on. 
Writer 2: ok. Then Ishy shows up and knocks Egwene out & the Damane from the boats miles away shield Rand so Ishy can dialogue. But Egwene wake up & throws up a Shield. And Ishy throws fireballs at it for a couple minutes. Until Perrin can show up with a shield! 
Writer 1: What? 
Rafe: Love it. Let’s do it. 

This insistance that Egwene is the main character is getting old lol, the idea Rafe wanted her to be Dragon, it is verging on offensive towards the idea that a show can have well developed female characters, who don't in fact "steal" from the male moment. Rand saved Egwene from death, that is the fact of this scene, no Rand here then they are all dead, how much more powerful and heroic do you need to see Rand be in this moment. He stands down a Foresaken, while still untrained, and absolutely owns him. he took out about 20-30 seanchan with a flick of his wrist, again untrained, we have not seen a single Aes Sedai do that the most we have seen Egwene do is a big wind blast and some fire balls, I mean all we have seen anyone do really is fireballs (including Lanfer). 

People need to break out of the echo chamber and actually watch the show that is on TV in front of them and see the facts as they are. Yes you can question writing and editorial choices, but we are verging on just mistruths being paraded as facts and then wrapped up in a narrative for which there is no evidence. 

39 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I do find any question which ultimately asks "why doesn't the bad guy just kill the good guy there?" to be quite tiresome. Honestly there's a myriad of in-universe reasons but the same answer can be applied to literally every situation in every form of media - because the narrative requires the bad guy not to kill the good guy in that moment. 

 

 

It is up there with, why doesn't harry potter just buy a gun, or why doesn't blofeld just kill james bond after the 5th time of seeing him escape some nefarious trap seemingly designed specifically for James's new gadget, there are loads of moments in the books where the bad guys could have just killed one of the EF5 and chose not to because "reasons".  

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed watching Brandon Sanderson watch episode 8 - and groan through most of it - and then, heavily criticizing the writing as bad. 
They wasted too much time on Warder crap and Moiraine’s family & because of that they didn’t properly set stuff up. 
He also criticized how they are breaking their own established rules of lore which causes them a myriad of problems - which will only compound down the road. And that’s really interesting to me that he’s warning them of that and they’re ignoring him. 
 

For example, something he brought up that we didn’t even think of is … Lanfear & then Moggy at the end, teleport. Ok, well if they can do that, then how come the moment Egwene throws up a shield vs Ishy, why wouldn’t he just teleport behind it? 
 

Also - Brandon & Daniel Greene had HUGE problems with how they used the SL dagger. But I’ve already complained about that at length. So we won’t recap. But - my point is - I have mad respect for BS in being honest about the shows bad writing! 

I mean, BS should probably look at his own writing then, which I think is pretty bad, I really do not rate the final 3 books of the series, I will always be grateful that he finished the series, but I actually disagree with some of his points in the watch along and think he has decided to purposely try and stay relevant by trolling the show partly because he has obviously been sidelined. Remember this is the guy who as the TV show was being talked about, decided to drop the Lanfer Bombshell trying to prove what a clever writer he is, when all it did was show again the flaws. 

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

And this goes triple for episodic tv shows. Digging in to the characters is the way to make WoT great tv. Trying to make the show focus on the plot and lore is a terrible idea. 

Yep a show of Exposition, history, action, reveal, Exposition history action reveal with events just happening to characters makes for awful TV. People ask, why so much Alanna, well maybe because the writers want the audience to really care about her at the end, really care about what happens to her. Why so much Verin, again so we care about her as a character. There is also lots of Rand in the show, people who claim there is not are ignoring how much screen time he gets. We see his soft side, probably better then we see it in the books, Much of the softness of Rand, other then his time with Matt, is shown in the books by other characters who knew him (mainly the girls) talking about him to other characters, or reminding him of moments. long gone. This way audiences actually get to see him helping an old man in a mental assylum, which will then feel even more key in 4 seasons time when Rand starts sacrificing anyone to get the win. I always felt that while we saw the fall of Rand in the books, it was only ever through other peoples eyes. From Rands POV it made perfect sense why he did what he did to me, it was only Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve and others talking about him that it showed how that fall could be a bad thing. In a TV show the audience have to care about him at his best in order to want him to get through his worst, and that does not mean making him a hero who can do amazing things, it means showing him be soft, giving a coin to a child, helping that old man, caring. 

1 hour ago, Gypsum said:

 

Or Seinfeld.  But that's what Jerry Seinfeld himself said he was deliberately writing in order to make it funny -- have these dysfunctional people living in New York, being dysfunctional, and never figuring their sh*t out.

 

All great literature/TV/film has character arcs. I'd say Aragorn in the books isn't unchanging. He doesn't have the heavy-handed arc you see in the movies (and as much as I loved the films, the whole falling-off-a-cliff and being saved by the horse subplot was stupid), but he becomes more 'kingly,' more of a responsible leader as the books progress.

I agree Aragorns arc moves from leader of the Rangers, to leader of a nation, but unlike film Aragorn he always knows exactly who he is going to be and embraces that, he is not the reluctant king or leader he takes narsil when the fellowship is formed, does not reluctantly look at it and take it later. That more than anything else really angered me about the movies, and still does to an extent. 

11 hours ago, Rhaze said:

 Yeah, now that I am much older in life, I have said more than once, if I had started reading the books right now, I dont know if I would have made it through book 1. Fantasy was an entirely different thing back in 91 though, basically you had LOTR rip-offs and Book 1 fell into the same trap as so much more other fantasy did during that time period.

And this is why changes to the source material needed to be made, to keep the themes and tone consistent throughout

6 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

I mean that we need to get over character development in general.  At the ages of most of the protagonists in this show, it may perhaps be a thing, but not any later.

No sorry great storytelling is built on character development, and storytelling on screen is built off showing a character evolve and change as the events affect and change them. Every great story has this theme, and the idea that people “stop” developing as they get older is just, well, makes no sense. 
 

Robert Jordan developed all his characters. Lan he tried to give an arc to when he realised he would need to last another 12 books, I mean he got rid of Moiraine in part to make that arc happen. 
 

Even comic books are built off character growth and change. Thor, Ironman, Captain America, in the comics had deep growth across arcs. Stories which rely on a constant unchanging character just doing things always come across as soulless. 

18 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Reading the thoughts on LOTR here, and combining it with something Sanderson said in his watch through - part of the issue with both WoT and LOTR is the substitutions that were made. Showrunners only get so much time, and for every new item added (Moiraine and her family) something has to be lost (Ingtar and the Hunt). And that's not a comment on quality, just reality.

 

Fellowship is the closest of the three to the book, and cutting Bombadil in favour of Aragorn / Arwen stuff was probably necessary; otherwise, there would only be women on screen for like 15 minutes in 12 hours. Although I don't hear the same complaints about Saving Private Ryan or Fury.

 

BUT... having Aragorn go off a cliff meant that they cut Saruman's actual death from the movies. Adding the Elves to Helm's Deep hurt one of the themes of the LOTR (men are now on their own). But most importantly, by blowing a one chapter battle in the books into 16% of the overall movies, we lost the Scouring of the Shire, and the loss of innocence for the home population when war comes to their doors instead of being far away. 

 

I also wish that they had let Aragorn and Faramir be complete in themselves and not send them through the character growth arcs, but that was going to be a losing battle. Which ties in to what WoT is doing to Lan. If Aragorn has to grow, so does Lan. 

 

The last piece on this part of the comparison to keep in mind, LOTR's total budget was $281 million; WOT is probably around $180 million. so we always have to be careful using LOTR as a quality benchmark for WoT

 

Ok losing bombadil was not done to add Arwen, the time spent on Arwen did not equal the 30-40 mins bombadil would have needed to do the scene justice. Bombadil was cut because it does not impact the story of how the ring gets to mount doom. The same reason scouring was cut (although I would have preferred scouring to the bloated end we were given). 
 

you are right about Aragorns story though, on screen you need an arc to go through, Aragorn in the book is just a constant in fact the only characters in the books really that develop are the hobbits. 
 

Saruman’s death was in the directors cut but I agree the pointless Aragorn off a cliff scene was not needed, I don’t know we would have got Saruman instead, Tolkien did leave gaps in the book that needed to be shown on screen for a cohesive story and an action scene to break up the walk to helms deep made some sense to show the danger. 
 

But your argument about helms deep indicates one of the biggest issues with translating book to screen, Dune is another example and something I am looking forward to seeing how they resolve. 
 

Helms deep in the book is told as a series of short paragraphs covering a whole seige. On screen that short section requires so much more screen time to make the fight worth watching. Rafe will have the same issue in WOT, battle for Emonds field, what 3 pages maybe, requiring an hour of tv time to do it justice, the rescue of Rand from the box, again a paragraph and then a series of flashbacks as Perrin remembers the horror, again on screen will have to be 45 mins probably. Set piece scenes in a book can be covered in very few words, but on screen where they have to happen in real time and show action and fighting they take much more time. Dune, dune the 2nd half Herbert didn’t even bother describing the big fights, you see the set up and then Paul is standing before the emperor, supposedly having just won some epic hours long battle. You don’t even see the attack that kills his children, he just hears about it over a radio message. But on screen it needs to be shown. 

15 hours ago, Skipp said:

I think she implied she placed it on the thief but it is only on his belt buckle as it has to be applied to metal?

Yep just re read it. A finder weave on his clothes that will fade after a few weeks. Samwil Hark is the thief. 

4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Okay, I don't remember that well. It sounds like a very useful weave that just isn't used for reasons. 

I mean RJ did that a bit later on, I need to make a thing happen, wait there is a weave for that. 
 

But l, and I need to go back and read that section, I thought that weave by Elayne was a fake out? She didn’t put any kind of tracking weave on him at all? 

1 hour ago, Rhaze said:

 Another big arc they skipped in season 2 (book 3) was Rand's ta'veren. In the books we get to see how he effected the pattern just by being there. Every village he went through showed the effect of his ta'veren, both the good and the bad, and the balance between the two.

 

 in WoT, Ta'veren is the plot armor. Ta'veren is how they could overcome what would seemingly be impossible odds. Especially with them together and how important it was for them to be together so their combined Ta'veren would have the most effect.

 

 Most non-book readers dont even know what it is.

I feel that, as with his power levels and sword fighting, when RJ realised he wasn’t wrapping it all up in book 3/4 then he dialed back that effect because while you see it from book 4 it does ease off a lot and then builds back up to a crescendo under BS. 

6 hours ago, Guire said:

I was wrong about Rafe and Moraine for season 3.  I read a few articles and merged them in my mind.  As far as Ingtar and particularly Verin.  Those a pretty beloved scenes by majority of commenters who reread the series.  What about the series did you enjoy that made multiple rereads appealing?  Also what is your background as much as you wish to reveal.  The world is a big place.  I have figured out that often cultural, educational, generational differences lead to people just talking past each other.  Something I feel like Jordan explored in the series heavily. I know I apparently in quite unusual in my life experience and perspectives even though it all feels normal to me.

Books 1-3, and I have discussed this at length in other places, are for me the weakest of the series, so much repetition, characters that are in many ways a pastiche, it is book 4-6 where I fell in love. It is only because I bought books 1-6 at once that I stuck to it. 
 

Verin is another storyline I love the potential of, but her reveal, that whole moment was just dropped by brandon, it is absorbed by what else is going on with egwene, the fall out is barely dealt with, you don’t really see how other aes sedai react to the news. In the show I really hope they show Verrin walking that fine line, killing or torturing in the name of the dark lord to keep her secret. 
 

As to my background? Am in the UK, read lord of the rings when I was 8, hobbit when I was 6, live fantasy, I did a post about how I shouldn’t want to keep coming back to the wheel of time, so much of the writing is just ok, there are so many cliches and issues with the way Robert Jordan constructed his books, and like I say the fact that, for me at least, it peaks in the middle and has a weak start and a bad end. Yet I do keep coming back, the world has so much potential in it and is so rich that I can forgive the weakness in the actual story of Rand Al Thor. 

10 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

The Ingtar reveal as a Darkfriend and his redemption was so effective and moving in the books. There was no reason in the show to keep him while spoiling of this arc and its relevance in Rand's growth. 

I totally agree with you.

Personally as much as it surprised me on the first read through, by the time of my 5th, 6th or 8th I really wonder why it was included in that book, it is never paid off anywhere else except by BS in the really really really bad Verin reveal. 

In the books there is no real indicator he is a dark friend until the moment he tells Rand, to then just turn around and die. In the show it would have come across not as an emotional moment, but as a bit of a cheap reveal for non book fans. Also it makes no logical sense, in the books Ishy was not at Falme and did not tell Fain to take the horn there, he didn't want the horn in the hands of the Seanchan. The idea has always been that Ingtar was compelled to get the horn, but then Fain got it and went and did what he did. 

In the Show that thread makes no sense, why go all the way to Falme what was the end goal, why steal the horn back from Ishy? I think the reality is that at the start of the writing process Rafe was going to play out ingtars arc, but posisbly when it cam eot actually following through the reveal just made no logical sense at all and so they decided to leave him the hero. Rafe did also say that some characters who where Dark friends would not be in the show, so I think that was Ingtar. Also no portal stone, no real motivator for such a drastic shift in allegiance. If you make turning to the light as easy as just walking along with Perrin then you suddenly devalue that choice darkfriends have made. 

10 minutes ago, Guire said:

So why did Rafe discuss adding additional season 3 material for Pike because she is the star.  Unless you have insider info, this is just a guess.

Where did he say that? I saw him talk about writing new stuff for season 2 because Moiraine is not in book 2 much and the story obviously didn't follow book 3 in terms of narrative but more in terms of character development. We know in the Shadow Rising she tries to balance between wanting to advise Rand and him ignoring her, Rafe has said that season 3 will follow that track that Rand doesn't trust her anymore and Lan will be put in the middle of that (as he is in the book), 

Rafe has also said how the writers not familiar with the books openly gasped at finding out a character they thought was untouchable would be dying, so that leans very heavily into Moiraine going through the door. Now, if it is the case that this will happen at the end of season 3 as opposed to the start of season 4 then we may see a little more of Moiraine, it is a standard writer approach to give a character who is ding more screentime to make the death more meaningful. it is why Ishy had as much screen time as he did in season 2, writiers know that they have 6 seasons to build the EF5, they therefore focus on the character who isnt going to be around anymore, and Directors let that actor have some juicy scenes because this will be the total of his work on the show.