4 hours ago, JenniferL said:

Actually, Brandon has been posting on Reddit about how many of his suggestions were actually taken. Not all of them, but it seems like his opinion was valued. 
 

https://www.reddit.com/user/mistborn/

I would say Brandon is being political as he is a producer, he disagreed with Perrin being married and Matt’s father, 2 pretty major changes. He also acknowledges that the consensus seems to be the first episode is choppy so I imagine behind scenes he is feeling a little unhappy and hopeful it picks up and redeems itself later on. 
 

It really concerns me that we need to get 3/4 of the way through the series to hit a really good episode. It all feeds into my main complaint which is that TV in general has just become better quality from the very first scene and the old days of a shaky start building to something good are long gone. 

On 11/19/2021 at 5:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

My general impressions of E1:

 

Pacing was poor. I think they could have shortened the battle scene and extended the post-battle scene. 

 

Character intros were ... meh. I liked Egwene's ceremony. But there was too much sitting at tables in the rest of it. Didn't love the Rand/Tam dialogue on the quarry road. And they really missed an opportunity by not showing Rand see the Fade.

 

I actually kind of liked the Perrin thing. (I'm going to have to think about this Laila was a darkfriend angle). I feel like it gives us so much insight into what's going on in his head. It was executed perfectly - he fights because he has to, loses himself in the rage of battle, then does something awful in the midst of it. It sets up a pretty powerful backdrop for his character moving forward.

 

I also found myself not minding the changes to the Cauthons. Abell didn't seem like a terrible guy, just kind of ... defeated. I can easily see a redemption arc for him and how it could play well against later book Mat. And they were able to do a pretty good job of depicting Mat's heart of gold and his recklessness.

 

I quite like the Nynaeve scene. The way Moiraine establishes dominance, the little subtlety of continuing to block Nynaeve from getting out of the pool. And the cold, calculated way that Moiraine gets the information she wants. I'm not bothered by Nynaeve's background. First, it mostly matches the cannon. And it gives us a little flavor of why people don't love the Aes Sedai. (My presumption is that they turned her away either for being a wilder or for not being strong enough in the power, but allowed her to come to whatever conclusion she wanted to because Aes Sedai are ivory tower snobs).

 

Hated most of the editing in the battle sequence. It went on too long, was too difficult to track, and failed to make me really care. I did like Tam and Rand's encounter. [LOL to the people who said they were going to make Tam look incompetent.] And as I mentioned earlier, Perrin's scene was effective. 

 

Didn't mind the bath scene at all. Didn't mind Egwene and Rand hooking up at all. 

 

Love all the actors, they've invaded my head canon. TBH, the fact that they felt so good in their roles is the main thing that kept me from feeling despondent about the show at the end of the episode. It's a shame about Barney.

 

Overall though, I felt the episode was flat. I'm glad I was able to jump right to the next episode, because if I'd had to wait a week for it I would not have left with a good taste in my mouth. (6/10)

Agree pretty much with all of this, I will add, watching it a second time, there is a little bit of the battle for Winterfell about the battle scenes, maybe one day soon, a show runner will realise you can actually fight a battle in daylight, or at least moonlight to let people see what is going on better. It wasn't as bad as the fight against the undead, but it was verging on it 

As someone who loves both the Wheel of time series and the Dune series I have always wondered if RJ ever stated if Dune influenced him at all, or if he and Frank Herbert had the same root influences. 

There are lots of things that are similar but the one that stands out to me are the Freman and the Aiel. Both are a dessert people, and both are considered the greatest warriors of there universes. Both have links to weapons, and a large culture around the use of water. Both also practive Polygamy and a form of indenture (Paul kills a man and then takes over his wife and children given the ability to claim the wife either for his bed, or as a slave). Both also have a messiah based religion, waiting for a saviour to free them, or lead them from the dessert. 

Even the eye colour, the Freman are blue eyed and the Aiel have light coloured eyes. 

Has this ever been clarified? 

On 10/6/2021 at 4:02 PM, DojoToad said:

That and the Pattern too.  Would Min, Elayne, Aviendah ever have shared any man 3 ways with any other women - had the Pattern not 'ordained' it?

 

Same for Mat and Tuon - no choice in the matter.  I agree that Mat wouldn't have looked at Tuon twice without the Pattern's or Finn's influence - she was short and slim and way too serious.  Mat chased care-free, buxom lasses that liked to laugh.  Tuon was none of those things, but it made sense in the context of the story.

Aviendah would have done, it is part of her societies culture. 

On 9/12/2016 at 9:56 PM, WOT1402 said:

It really is strange. All te other manipulations of the Forsaken are undone and righted at the end of the series. But not for Seanchan where te rot is left.

 

I ve read different things about this. Did RJ plan to write a book with Matt and Tuon. I saw a few quotes saying he wasn't going do books with the same characters or even same world.

 

It felt really odd that plot points set up in te second book regarding the Seanchan never amounted to anything since only Tuon learned about the lies and decided to stay the course. Because she's evil.

 

If he did then my assumption is that people would find out that Tuon is a channeled and use that to justify deposing her. Which would compel Tuon, along with Matts influence, into changing her mind.

Tuon isn't evil, in fact the Seanchan are not inherently evil, they have a different way of existing and yes they way they use Channellers could be considered immoral, but, to the Seanchan including the channellers, it is just the way it is. 

Changing this, given the politics of the empire and the way the establishment would rise up. Not to mention the upheaval the secret would create Tuon made a political decision to maintain the status quo for the final battle. I imagine that moving forward she would then begin the slow process of changing Seanchan law and culture but you are looking at probably generations of work to undo all that has been put in place. 

9 hours ago, Child-Pain said:

I started reading the series at 17 years old in 1997, would reread the series every time a book would come out.  I feel that if Robert Jordan was alive this show would have been made very differently.  Still glad it was made.  

Rafe has admitted that Brandon Sanderson, who advised on the re writes, actively disagreed with decisions that Rafe made in those cases he said he listened to Brandon but generally stuck to what he wanted to do because it made more sense for the story he was trying to tell in the TV series. 

45 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

The part in red above...

 

Did you see in episode 1 (timestamp from 3 minutes 55 seconds) the landscape.  I just noticed the tall vertical 'rocks' look like they are actually tall buildings/skyscrapers.  Definitely look man made.  Is that the remnants of Menetheren?  Very nice touch if so!

 

I need to go back but there was a ruined bridge as well that seemed too well made for the age. 

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

Like I said, I might be reading things that aren’t there. But several times they’ve shown that Rand likes to get up high or climb a mountain when he’s trying to work through negative emotions. And when Moiraine tells the story of Manetheren, you get a reaction shot of Egwene when Eldrene draws too much of the power. Rafe knows the complete story and knows what elements he wants to include in later seasons. There’s no reason not to do foreshadowing now, especially since a good chunk of TEOTW is foreshadowing later books. Min’s visions in Baerlon are basically a Cliff Notes version of the next 13 books. 

This is the beauty of the visual medium, in a book the writer can’t add subtleties like this in, you can’t describe an Ailes hair and in the next scene describe again how Rand looks, but I do think it will lead to certain revelations coming far sooner. Seeing a forsaken use a mobile phone for instance gives away the age of wonder was high technology, but in the book you can simply call it a special device and leave the details until you want to make that reveal. 

On 9/30/2021 at 8:25 PM, SingleMort said:

I never personally saw this as rape but it definitely seemed dodgey. The reason I didn't see it as rape was it didn't appear there was any trauma involved. Mat seemed uncomfortable and confused by the situation but he never seemed to be suffering or in any genuine distress. You could argue there was sexual harrassment but I don't think Mat was raped and it seemed clear he had geuine feelings for Tylin

It is arguments like this that set back justice for men and women 30 years. Now legally Mat was not raped as the act of Rape must involve the act of penetration, but there is no doubt mat was forced, against his will, to engage in a sexual act. This was not a Consensual non Consensual BDSM scene being played out, it was a women, in a position of power taking advantage of a man with the threat of stabbing. 

Saying that one persons sexual assault is worse or better then another immediately devalues all sexual assaults, it is a slippery slope from that statement to going back to the bad old days of claiming that it can't be rape if the women says yes to start with, to then it can't be rape if she makes the man think she said yes to, if she wears a short skirt then she is asking for it. Victims, male and female, don't sit at support groups trying to out do each other as to the level of trauma they deserve to feel. 

To my mind this whole debate and argument is the wrong argument, who was more raped should not matter.

Was what happened to both of them wrong, yes,

would it have impacted them later in life, yes, 

The thing no one seems to bring up in this are the Forsaken who use Compulsion to get others to perform sexual acts many times over. These would include Rahvin who used Compulsion on Morgase to make her perform who knows what sexual acts with him. Off screen it is clear much worse things happen so by the argument made in this thread you could argue Morgase's "rape" as discussed in this thread wasn't really that bad as at least she was aware of it. 

Rape is Rape, there is no grading, no comparing that one is worse than another, you don't go to a rape victim and say, there there get over it it can't have been that bad I mean, he wasn't violent. 

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

The quick look showing the dead Aiel's hair I liked.

For me it was the intercutting between this shot and then straight to Rand who's hair is identical in colour. However because the main essence of that scene is him trying to escape a crazy women with a sword it won't be obvious but, once the reveal is made about Rands Ancestry, it will be a nice little call back for people to go, ahhhhh I get it now. 

I do appreciate clever foreshadowing such as this. 

So attempting to move on from the disappointments of the opening 3 episodes there are 3 key moments in the books I am really looking forward to non readers experiencing. They are in no particular order. 
 

Realisation that the world before the breaking was technologically more advanced then our own society, with hover cars and amazing tech. That understanding that the breaking wasn’t just destruction and death, but a complete regression of society back from high tech to the Middle Ages. 
 

The reveal that Rand is Aiel and the understanding of who his parents are. 
 

The reveal of the link between the Tinkers and the Aiel. 
 

The second one, Rands heritage, has been already foreshadowed really well. The casting of Emonds Field and Rand really makes him stand out as looking different. Follow this up with the cut between Matt knelt by the Aiel body and the camera lingering on the hair and face, and then switching to Rands face as he deals with the Dark Friend and you get that bit of foreshadowing of this fact. 
 

I have a feeling that we are going to find out Rand is Aiel far sooner then In the books. Viewers are going to make the connection very soon after the Aiel start appearing in numbers and there is no point “hiding it” for a Long time. I did think they would do a similar thing with the tinkers, making them look appear similar to the aiel. 
 

So what are the moments you are looking forward to being imagined on screen, which big reveals do you hope will land and excite or surprise newcomers to the series? 
 

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I don't even..

Watch it back it makes no sense logically. There is a concept in film and TV you have to earn the right to get the viewer to suspend belief. John Wick is the best example of this, the films are largely realistic so those moments, which are not count as 1-2 a movie, where you can ignore the obvious are forgiven. 

That whole scene with Nym killing a trolloc anyway just felt wrong but you add in the logic of that pool and it forces me as a viewer to question the reality of the scene which removes me from being immersed in the show. 

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

How is the show exciting very few people?  the ratings are averaging in the 70's or 80's.  Just because a section of forum goers aren't happy with the show doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

Anecdotally 10 of my friends are non WOT book readers, all 10 have told me they won’t be carrying on watching it and don’t want to borrow the books. They are all fantasy people, some of them I play DND with but all of them thought the opening 2 episodes where, in the word of one, just bad. This was heralded by Amazon as there GOT, it lacks either the quality of script, acting or feel of that series. 

20 minutes ago, Akragard said:

The problem is the first season is already filmed in completion.  That means the production level and writing likely won't differ much for the first season.  They might be able to turn it around during the second season, but that may be too late.

 

This was a high budget production and it comes off feeling more like something from the SyFy channel.  I'm disappointed with a lot of the way things look.  The attention to detail is missing.  Set aside all the story issues and just focusing on the production value and it's just not there.  People who've been on the road for days, in Shadar Logoth, chased by Trollocs appear too clean and chipper.

 

Fades were the only thing for me that really jumped out as done right.  When the Fade rides on the the bridge at Tarren's Ferry and you can see the leaves on a tree blowing gently in the background, but it's cloak doesn't move?  Perfect.  Where was that level of detail in the rest of the show?  They couldn't afford to have Tam and Lan train for being world class level swordsmen?  They just felt clumsy. 

For me the subtle foreshadowing of Rands background was great, the Camera lingering on the Aiel showing the shade of red clearly before then switching to Rand facing off with the dark friend. The casual viewer may not have noticed it straight away but it is there as a nice thing to look back on. 
 

For that matter the difference in complexion between Rand and all the other cast in Edmonds Field, if you go back he very clearly stands out as paler and red haired. 

11 hours ago, Chwooly said:

It doesn't bother anyone that in E1 it is mentioned that Trollocs hate deep water then in this episode Nyneave kills one after it follows her and search's in a deep pool?  Also how did she find everyone when they are on horses and moving quickly and she is on foot?  

 

Suspension of disbelief is important but this is not something you can just ignore. 

 

I have to say, I am very disappointed in the 3 episodes I have watched so far, Not just because I am a fan of the books. 

 

I have been able to overlook some of the glaring deviations from the source material. 

But the poor CGI, bad pacing, poor plot explanations, wooden acting, make this  hard to watch, It is sad that this might make it thru 2 seasons (only because they have already paid for 2 seasons)  but I don't see the writing, acting or effects being strong enough for it to last to MOL And it is not because of the source being to difficult to bring to TV. The Expanse, Foundation, GOT, Dune and LOTR's have all have very intense and complex stories and so so far they have all been able to have decent runs.

So far this is more hobbit then LOTR. 
 

As for the magical pool, deep enough for Nym to hide in, then just up to Trollocs knees, then deep enough for the body to dissapear in that made no sense. 

49 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I agree, I do think they need to show him at some point between those 2 appearances. Maybe show him among the shadowspawn or something? 

I feel a simple moment was missed, as the group rode away from the river and the fade stood there and screamed you cold have had Fain appear after they had ridden off, standing next to the fade, the trollocs giving him space. A few seconds of scene to show the audience there is more to him. 

You could then start Episode 4 with him leaving Shadar Logoth, the sound of Trollocs yelling slowly dying out until silence, him staring at the wall of the city before then heading off. Just a minute or 2 of TV time to show the audience that the Trollocs had gone into the city, all died but he had escaped. 

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Isn' that accurate to the books though? I think he shows up in Baerlon which is cut of course, but his actual story isn't revealed until Fal Dara I believe.

While yes in the books his story really takes off in the great hunt and we only learn of what happened to him after the fact, in a visual medium like TV a character like that, who has not really been explored, really needs to develop alongside the other characters given how important he is.

40 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yeah, I didn't get a "CW/Arrow verse" feel out of this at all. The acting and the teenage angst just wasn't there.

But yes, I really DO wish they would have made this 12 or 24 episodes... but we can't always get what we want.

 

This might explain a lot of the "clipped" dialogue in the first episode that I didn't like.

 

Remember in the books where Rand was confronted by Ba'alzamon, and was shown Kari al'Thor surrounded by fades?

They're 100% doing something similar with Perrin.

It's also entirely possible that the "Laila = DF" theory could be used here to.

I probably need to explain my Arrowverse comparison a little better here. 

In terms of Scripting, acting, and the special effects this feels more like arrow then it does GOT, See or other more adult orientated drama's I suppose a closer comparison is the Shannara Chronicles. Or actually Agents of Shield. It feels like he is trying to get that teenage fantasy action show while trying to tie in more adult themes. For now I am going to wait and see if the show finds it's feet but it is going to be hard to get casual fans to become invested in a day and age when people, rightly, push back against the "it takes a few episodes to get going" argument. 

In this day and age with only 8 episodes in a season there is not room to spend a few episodes "finding a shows feet". 

23 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I'm sitting at about 75 of 100 from what I've currently seen. This can go up or down depending on how good or bad the rest of the episodes are.

For reference, The Boys & Invincible are both a 90 out of 100, GoT series was an 70 out of 100, and MCU is an 80 out of 100.

*Edit*
Also, I was tempering my hype. I set my internal bar pretty low so as to not suffer from hype shock. 

E.g. when a video game is over hyped and falls flat and gets review bombed even though it's an above average game.

My biggest issue is that this feels more like the arrow verse then GOT, I didn’t want GOT copy, the books and world are vastly different, but it has that teenage fiction feel which the books are not. 
 

The first 2 episodes where the pilot and seemed written and filmed that way, which is something modern TV has moved away from, episode 3 seemed to get more into its stride more because it slowed down and had time to breathe. I do not understand the insistence to have these as 8 episode series, what happened to the good old days of a 15 episode+ season for a tv show. 

On 11/19/2021 at 6:44 AM, CaddySedai said:

I do want to point something out

 

If anything the series has already successfully opened up discussion about NEW WoT content - something we have not had on DM in years. 

 

New members are joining to talk about it with us. 

 

I already view it as a success. Now to see if it has legs. 

I have many friends who are fantasy lovers who where holding off reading the books until they saw the series, as a single unit they all now are telling me they will not be reading what to them seems like young adult fiction. 

the series has some serious issues it needs to address now it has got over the pilot 2 episodes. We can’t undo the rushed start and poor dialogue and acting so far but I do hope that it picks up. This feels like an early 2000’s piece of tv and that is an issue. Shows like game of thrones, See, the Expanse, Lucifer and the boys have demonstrated that you can have really intelligent writing and direction on the small screen where as so far this feel more like the arrow verse in terms of writing and feel which isn’t surprising given the credits of the show runner. The issue for me is that in its current form I don’t see this being pushed for the full run and can see Amazon pulling the plug in 2 seasons. Seasons should have been 12-15 episodes long to give breathing space. I will see out the first season but overall on current form I don’t see this sticking. 

Ok there are some great moments here that I think are brilliantly subtly done. 
 

The scene where Matt learns the body is an aiel, is really well interspaced with scenes of Rand. This subtly highlights how Randa hair and complexion match the Aiel far more then he matches the 2 river folk. This is really good foreshadowing and I imagine because on TV it is far more obvious the link we will get that big reveal far earlier in the series. 
 

Thoms introduction was great, I was happy it was held off to be a moment in itself and the interaction between him and Matt was perfect. I didn’t even mind Matt looting the body, it indicates the effect the blade is having on him however because we have not really got to know him pre blade for many it won’t really seem that he is slipping into darkness. 
 

Nyn meeting Lan again had some nice foreshadowing of what we know will happen in the future and having Her kill a trolloc on her own was really strong and defines her character. I was concerned they would have her use the power in that moment of anger and was pleased they didn’t. 
 

Now my really big gripe, Fain has still not had his story told, I really hope that in the next episode or at most 2 we get a long 20min flashback of what he has been doing, him with the Trollocs chasing the runaways and then entering Shadar Logath. It is getting to the point where he will have been out of the story too long, or will just appear and with a throwaway line explain what he was doing. 
 

Thinking about it Episode 3 feels a little better it is clear a decision was made, for good or bad, that eye of the world doesn’t really get going until the group is split up. I am hoping that story pacing now slows down and things are allowed to breathe a little but I fear that with only 5 episodes left to get through a lot of story the constant rushing of story telling will continue. 
 

On 11/19/2021 at 2:07 AM, MashiraSedai said:

I've only watched episode one, I will watch the other 2 tomorrow. For a rushed start, and Reds being the first scene... I am underwhelmed. Hopefully it goes up from here.

 

Episode one spoiler 

 

  Hide contents

What the actual trolloc hairs... Layla really upset me. Along with the depiction of Lan and Moiraine as an item. Arrrgh. 

 

I don't think they are meant to be an item, it is a lot more complicated than that, they are sharing a bath but it isn't sexual at all. I think the idea is to bait and switch the audience into thinking one thing and then explain the warders later in the series, or have Nyn think there is something between them and find out there is not. 

I was overall though dissapointed 

So 10 of my friends who have never read the books and where intrigued have told me they will not be continuing to watch and they will never be picking up the books based on the first 3 episodes. This is anecdotal but I feel the TV show so far has done far far more harm than realised to the legacy of the series. 

There are some good bits, the subtle difference of Rands hair and skin tone to the rest of the 2 rivers folk and then foreshadowing by having the dead Aiel match was good, and something that a visual medium can do much better subtly. 

But the dialogue and pacing and acting are just sub par. I like the changes to Matt, it gives more depth, but the Trollocs looked poor in some scenes. I would be shocked if we get more then 3 seasons of this out of Amazon and that is the travesty a bad telling of the wheel of time that never gets completed. 

And to those stating Brian is the greatest new fantasy writer sorry for me George Martin has, with a song of ice and fire, blown bit only Sanderson but also Jordan out of the water.

So disappointed I read it twice before posting just in case my dislike for this book was colored by the first reading, it wasn't.

My reason for disappointment, not any of the points raised by most all that I could live with. Instead it was the scene between Rand and the DL this is a plot device used so many times in so many series I can't believe I waited 15 yrs, had debates and discussions with many and went on about how great the books where to simply get an ending that Stephen Donaldson did years ago and got to in a fraction if the time. Really wish I had never started a d invested so much in this series.