15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't have the same passionate hatred for Season 1 that you do. But it definitely left me feeling deflated and concerned for the longevity of the show.

 

I was thinking back this morning on my first experience with The Eye of the World. I was just a lad at the time, but was voraciously consuming fantasy fiction. I read a ton. And I remember being sort of confused and unhappy with the way book 1 ended. In fact, if I hadn't bought the first three books as a set, I probably wouldn't have continued with the series. I decided to read the Great Hunt anyway, and then the Dragon Reborn. By the time I finished Shadow Rising, I was committed to buying the hardcover within the first week after a new book dropped.

 

The show feels like it's following the same paradigm. Which is sort of fitting...

I had the same experience with WOT, in fact I bought the first 6 books, and had to try and restart EOTW about 3 times before I could get all the way through it, I just saw it being far to much a copy of lord of the rings and didn't want a 6 book (how naive I was thinking it was over in 6 books), bad lord of the rings ripoff

17 hours ago, Mirefox said:

I do understand a show runner’s desire to stay vague, but I think I’d respect Rafe’s caginess more if he were willing to say something like, “ live said before that some changes will be made to adapt this massive book.  We’ve made the decision to cut the Finn but Mat will follow a similar arc to the books in a way that fits our show.”

 

I’m not saying that’s the case with the Finn but he could be up front sometimes.

If you go back through Rafe's answers to things you can actually read between the lines, anything that seems to be WAFO (which I put this answer in the category of) so far has come to pass in some way. When he has said something like that line then the thing being asked about has not happened, or has been very ver different. 

I think we get 1 doorway and the granting of wishes, but not the telling of truths. 

9 hours ago, Gypsum said:

 

Perfection is the enemy of good. I could have revised forever ('that word is wrong!') but ultimately there was a f*ck it moment, and I got the thing published. I'm working on my third novel the now. Still hammering out the first draft, which is basically a sketch, and I expect to rewrite it at least 30 times.

Becoming a DnD DM taught me this, I have seen so many DM's try and perfect the world before they let players loose in it, wanting to know the backstory of Greta the barmaid in a tavern at the edge of the world, just in case the players go there. I have got really good at just having the minimum I need in my world at any one point for the story and then feed off the players to make the world and create the story as we go through it. 

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yes, he didn’t say, “I’m not sure we’ll get a season 4.” But one can easily read between the lines… 

But I’m consoled by … what has been suggested on this thread… it may have nothing to do with viewership. Bezos has the $$ and can do whatever he wants. Including make 8 seasons of WoT just because… multi-billionaire. 

There is also an issue for future IP’s if Amazon picked up a massive fantasy series and then drop the ball and cancel it then when they are up against the likes of Netflix, Disney and HBO in future for other IP’s the authors may look at WOT and say, hmmm I can’t be assured you will actually see this through. 
 

Ok yet another read through recently and I found myself wondering, why if all the fantasy I have read do I keep coming back to this one to re read. If I think about it then it really should have been a 1 and done but for some reason I do keep returning. 
 

It isn’t the best written set of books, I mean there are moments that are brilliant, the build up and culmination of the battle of Emonds Field is one. But, there are actually very few moments through the series that pack this emotional impact. There is boundless repetition of prose. 

The characters are not consistently written well. 

Many of the evil Characters are very one dimensional on the page compared to the modern writing style, and many of the heroic characters are at various points just irritating. 
 

There is some very dated prose, crossing of arms under bosoms, men and women never understanding each other, many characters have very one dimensional emotions. 
 

the last 3 books are just ok (my opinion) BS did his best, but the final 3 books, while they have some good moments, just come across a bit flat overall. 
 

all those facts mean the series really should not be a keeper. In fact it was highlighted by a very good friend who finally read the series having seen the tv show, and they are just amazed anyone would go back and read it again, pointing out a ton of flaws that I can’t argue with. 
 

And yet. It is the series I have read the most, other maybe then Lord of the rings, but I can get through those books now over a weekend I have read them so often. 
 

There are series that I loved more, the chronicles of Thomas covenant is one that I personally feel is one of the most perfect fantasy series ever written. But it is WOT I keep coming back to.
 

The lore and the world is one, it was the first fantasy series I read that was about a post apocalyptic earth, and since then I have become fascinated with that kind of fiction (See on Apple TV and Horizon Zero Dawn are 2 examples of recent stories of that genre that I love). 

But I think it is also those rare but great moments, Emonds fields, Egwene taking control of the hall. Those are the moments that I think draw me back, the rest of it, well it  is easy to take in and just get through, I don’t find any of the books a slog or hard to read. Compared to Game of thrones it almost feels like an airport fiction book, something you can read quickly and easily. But it has a complexity to it that is unlike any cheap thriller. 
 

So what is it that keeps you coming back to WOT despite all the flaws with the writing that we all know are there (and many many on this forum are open about them). Why is it your go to despite maybe not being the perfect 5 star book that other fantasy novels might be. 

3 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

This is exactly how I know this because BS was doing a progression blog during the writing of aMoL and he would be like...well, that was an easy chapter, all I had to do was make a couple of corrections and write about a paragraph. 

And this is my issue, I don’t know if RJ would have used those sections as is, and to my mind reading all 3 books the tone and voice changes so drastically to RJ’s other books I don’t know if I believe it, I really don’t see how RJ would have just changed his writing style so drastically to suddenly become so bad. 

I have been thinking about this and given the amount that needs to be cut out I can understand removing the first doorway, you never want repetitive content in a tv show where you are limited for time and having Matt go through 2 doorways creates repetition (it is why I don’t think we will see Egwenes arch visions, we will just see her go in then come out again). 
 

It is possible to have mats memory’s restored another way, it is also possible for Min to replace the prophecy side of the questions. But, my big issue here is that Matt goes into the 2nd door thinking it is the same, so he doesn’t ask for things, he asks questions and realises to late what has happened. So this whole scene has to be written a different way. 

6 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

RJ wrote the ending when he wrote the Eye of the World prologue.

Large portions of the final chapters in aMoL including Rand's defeating and resealing of the Dark One were already written or partially written by RJ in his notes.

Rand in his new body riding off into the sunset and the lighting of his pipe was all RJ as well.

Always wonder how truly accurate this is, JK Rowling claimed when she write Philophisers stone that she had written the very last chapter of the series, she claimed that for years, but she then admitted that she actually re wrote and changed that last chapter multiple times including at the very end. 
 

I would be interested to know to what “extent” was it written, notes on a post it, a flesh of an idea or written out as prose. 
 

I also wonder, given how RJ shifted and changed the story as it progressed, how much would it have changed when he actually came to write the end, especially how far the story had moved from the start in eotw. 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Rafe said in his first post-Strike AMA that he has big things planned for Anvaere going forward.

I have a worry she may end up hanging around in her bedroom eventually. 

3 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

I think RJ always knew how Fain would be killed (by Mat obviously) but yeah the when and how was still the question.

In end, most of the issues people have with Fain has to do with them being fooled into believing what Fain was preaching. Fain thought he was outside the Pattern and was destined for some great thing.

The reality was he was never outside the Pattern, he had delusions of grandeur and he was absolutely insane.

Shadar Logath was created by the Pattern 2000 years in advance of Rand needing it. Fain's whole purpose give or take was to deliver the means to Rand to figure out how to cleanse Saidin.

*EDIT* As well as being the catalyst to set all 3 boys on their respective paths. Perrin going to the Two Rivers to save it and unlocking Mat's initial memories as well as his need to acquire/replace more of them.

I mean you could maybe make the argument that Fain kept some of the Shadow's forces in check from time to time but really once he got Mat and Perrin going and stabbed Rand, he was just a big ole Red Herring for the rest of the series.

My alternate ending of the story has a much bigger role for fain, I always thought the story would be much more interesting if at the end Rand realised there was no creator, that the dark lord is just an ancient evil that was trapped away in a previous turning, a mortal who gained supernatural powers and knowledge. 
 

Rand finishes the last battle killing the dark lord, because humanity will continue being good and evil, this being has no impact on that, and the battle is won, but then, he realises there is a new evil risen, one that can destroy the world, one that needs to be inprisoned, and so Rand dies not killing the dark one, but imprisoning the next. 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:40 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I have to respectfully disagree, being naive explains nothing of Faile's character, she is making deliberate decisions about how to treat Perrin that are not mistakes due to lack of experience. If they don't have an adult level of maturity they should not be getting married. I do not understand where you get the theme of the books is children becoming sexually active, getting married and running states, waging war, all sorts of fun. Young adults are not children, and are fully responsible for their actions.

It is clear you have an absolute view of the characters in the books that they are somehow mature and experienced and know everything and so when they make mistakes naivety can't be used as an excuse, despite the fact that all the main characters show exactly these same traits repeatedly. Many Many Many people fall in love and get married when they are not mature enough to, it happens in every coutry all the time, and young adults are not children, but, they make dumb mistakes and do things they shoudn't because of a lack of maturity. Go to any university campus and you will see loads of examples of that all over,  I at no point said it is about Children, But it is about immature young people coming of age and discovering about the world, I mean in the books I am pretty sure all of the EF5 are virgins, and by the end they all are not, Egwene behaves like a giddy school girl with Gawyn and often shows her age and immaturity, Matt probably ages the fastest, but he has lots of old men living in his head, Rand's efforts to woo and then run away from the 3 women in his life is at times just childish. Nynaeve is slightly better, but then she is older, but still acts immature with Lan, and lets not get into the wonder 3 acting like petty school girls while trying to hunt the black Ajah. Elayne sends the 2 letters to Rand like some lovesick child, something that adults would look at and shake there head at, she then tries to be a bit more grown up about it but still repeatedly acts irrationally compared to older characters around her.

I could go on, but the "stable" relationships in the books are generally those involving older people, Gareth and Siuan, Egeanin and Bayle, all the adult Aiel,  Robert Jordans writing is constantly pointing out that the main characters are young and because they are young they sometimes make dumb choices, especially when it comes to personal matters like love etc. 

You can't suddenly expect Faile, who whether it is 5 years, or 2 years younger then perrin, is still younger then Perrin to be some mature adult when it comes to relationships when I imagine in your own life there are 30 year olds who still have not learnt how to do adulting properly. The importnat thing is that over the course of the books Faile learns and changes, she has an arc, and her early actions are explained rationally in the books as a combination of jealousy, not knowing how to process her emotions, a lack of understanding as to how Perrin is acting and just not knowing how ot be adult about things. Oh, and cultural indoctrination that has told her that what she has is not what she thinks a marriage should be. But her and Perrin then have the talk, after a year of marriage, a year in which alot has happened, and they clear alot of things up, Perrin stops hiding things, Faile opens up and shares all about her, and they are stronger then for it. You would almost think there is a life lesson being told there in that story, who would have thunk it. 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:59 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

If you aren't an adult then you are a child. I think it is splitting hairs to call someone not emotionally and intellectually an adult, and to somehow claim that would not be calling them children. 

I think every university student would be offended if they where called children, but many would also happily admit they are not adults yet in how they act, think, behave, and they shouldn't be. Here in the UK university is seen as much as the place you go to grow up and start to become an adult, as it is for academic purposes. Having spent a year in America when I was myself a student I can say that 18-21 yo Americans, in my experience, where generally even more immature and had even more growing up to do, I wonder anecdotally if it is because in the UK we are treated as full adults at 18, but that is a whole other thread. 

48 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

Those questions are arguably true for the books as well. Why didn't the Forsaken turn him or kill him before he came into his full strength? He proved he could take out one or two at a time, but if everyone had linked, he would have been in trouble.

 

It would also have been a short series. But more seriously -- and I think the show has hinted at this too -- Lanfear is hoping he will fall in love with her, like Lews Therin was, so she wants him alive. Ishamael told Mat flat-out that he wanted to end the cycle of reincarnation. Letting Rand grow into his power and having a confrontation with the Dark One sounds like a fun and nihilistic way to blow the world up.

 

As book readers know, the Forsaken all hate each other's guts and are too busy playing Daes Dae'mar with one another to be effective. The show hasn't gone there, yet, but it reminds me of certain real life governments.

 

I can answer that writer's other questions, mostly from within the show-world, though a little book knowledge helps.

 

*The Seanchan are in Falme because it's a coastal city, the first place they invaded. They think that to win the Last Battle, the whole world must be united. Under them! Renna said this to Egwene in a pretty clear way.

 

*The Aes Sedai haven't done anything about the Seanchan because so far, all they've heard is rumour, and they are so mired in their internecine politics that they could not organise a p*ss-up in a brewery (I suppose I know that from the books...perhaps it's not super clear in the show). 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Most of the Tower Aes Sedai, post-coup, did not believe that the Seanchan existed until they attacked the Tower itself.

 

*Rand has to be in Falme because prophecy says he should be. A few characters have mentioned this. That's how this world works. Everyone else is there because he has to be, and Ishamael pulled his Dark Friend strings to get the other Emond's Fielders to Falme along with him.

 

*I'm sure Ishamael has a reason for hanging out with the Seanchan. All of the book-Forsaken set themselves up in powerful positions within various nation-states across Randland, whoever they thought would aid their personal agendas.

The main answer is that the Dark Lord made it very very clear he wanted Rand left alone, my guess is that until he "declares" himself then he isn't truly the dragon, and a turned Dragon won't be able to grab Callandor etc, so there is a cut off point. Add to that, like you say, the fact that various Foresaken are busy plotting against each other and are all being misdirected by Lanfer who needs Rand to stay untainted so LTT can take him over. 

There is also the practical reason, in book 2 Robert Jordan had no idea that channellers could be forced to turn by 13 aes sedai and 13 Fades, that is not indicated as being a thing until Egwene in book 3. 

Interview with one of the directors. 

On 10/4/2023 at 8:16 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But surely this falls under unreliable narrator? It does not say that she compared the years of birth with Ewin, it only says she thought they were the same age. And Perrin did not recognise Ewin because he had aged so much in the year he had not seen him, so one could imagine easily that with his deep voice etc., he could appear older.

 

But the age is not so important, as surely we have to take that whatever the characters literal ages are, that in the books they are emotionally developed enough that we are not partaking of child abuse, and that they are to all intents and purposes, adults fully capable of consent. I really cannot imagine the point of arguing otherwise.

Like I say I am sure Robert Jordan stated he made a mistake here, which indicates the statement is right, Robert just forgot how old his own side characters where, but I have not seen the exact RJ quote, only people claiming he made it. 

The most important thing here though is that regardless of the world these are all presented as very innocent naieve characters learning about life while also trying to save the world so to expect an adult level of maturity in how they manage there relationships is to just ignore the theme of the story, a theme that explains pretty much all of the behaviour of Failes you refer to. 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:02 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Not sure how this answers my post. The author has stated that she is older, the books do not any definitive mention of her age that I know, and whatever her actual age, we have to assume that she is emotionally and intellectually an adult. Because the alternative is? That RJ was advocating child marriages?

An 18yo in the real world is generally not intellectually or emotionally an adult, I would say I couldn't really call myself intellectually or emotionally an adult until I was in my late 20's early 3-'s and most of my friends looking back would agree that they themselves think that (about themselves not me lol). 

There is no magic switch that happens when you turn 18, it is a process of years of life happening to a person and shaping there experiences and how they make decisions. Age is important the EF5 are immature and inexperienced, they are constantly being looked at with amused grins, or raised eyebrows by the adults around them for the things they do, it is made clear throughout the books that they are in the position they are in in spite of there ages, and it is only the powers they wield that give them the ability to command these experienced adults around. The characters are all immature in many many ways, they are meant to be it is how RJ wrote them. 

52 minutes ago, Gary Again said:

I think in my later rereads I started realizing it doesn't really have much to do with Perrin at all he's just catching strays between two hard headed women going to war. Faile is over protective and basically every female friend of Perrin's gets the 3rd degree from Faile when they meet and none of them really like it. You hear Min complain about it to Rand when Faile does it to her and I believe Egwene and Elayne as well but they are all pretty easy going so it ends there. She tries the same thing with Berelain but Faile takes it to an extreme with her getting into a physical fight and embarrassing her in front of Ruarc and Berelain basically in that moment promises to torment Faile endlessly because of it and throughout the books she is true to her word. Faile finally crossed the one woman petty enough and with the weapons to make her pay for messing with her. I don't even think Berelain really thinks she has a chance with Perrin after a while she knows he's faithful as he's as obvious about that as he can possibly be she is just tweaking Faile at every chance she has. 

 

I think the part that bothered Faile about Perrin (and I think she even said this in the books) was the more he denied that anything was going on and the more vehement he was about it the more he added weight to whatever BS Berelain was trying to pull. Once he started ignoring Berelain, Faile was able to ignore it and things improved. I think the part about Perrin just feeling like a victim in an unpredictable situation was that he was exactly that and by reacting to things and trying to fix it (because that's Perrin's thing) he was just making it worse. Berelain fully realized this and weaponized it until Perrin figured it out. Also I feel like a lot of the challenges Perrin faced were puzzles, I think this was a big puzzle he had to think through and the other was the Shaido and they were call backs to the blacksmith puzzles Perrin was always talking about.

 

 

Oh no Berelain thinks she has a chance, she also thinks Rand has given her Perrin, she tells Faile that herself, it is not until Faile is rescued that Berelain finally gives up on Perrin, although I think the slightest hint and she would have been back there. 

I mean there are alot of Perrins behaviours that today might be classed as being on the Autism/Asperges spectrum. His emotional intelligence is off, he thinks logically and struggles with emotion. 

9 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yeah, no way they’re bringing in a different actor; they’re gonna keep this Ishy & Lanfear & Liandrin & Valda as primary antagonists for the whole series. And next season add: Elaida & Couladin/Sevanna? 

Funny thing is, they are so much better written than most of our main “good” characters that … in this “turning of the wheel” … I hope they win! 😉 

 

Except for Fain - who they’ve oddly left out, almost entirely, of this season. Which makes it so that when he stabs Rand it’s gonna be like “hmmm, didn’t see THAT coming!” 
 

That being said, perhaps a surprise death could be … Renna ? It’s been promised… 

I have a feeling Fain won't be the one to stab Rand, I am also finding it interesting that people seem so accepting that Rands first wound will come from Fains blade and not Ishy's as it does in the book. Does this mean he won't be stabbed twice? 

but back to Fain, in the books his story kind of drifts off, it feels liek once he created him RJ wasn't really sure how to end his arc, and then we get BS awful ending. I think we might see Fain die far far sooner. The important thing here is Shadar Logath and the part it plays later, Fain as a character doesn't realy do much other then stab Rand (and kill off a few people Rand want's dead). 

30 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

It isn’t much different emotionally but she meets Perrin when she’s 18.  She was born in 981 and met Perrin in 999.

Perrin is about 20 when the series starts. Ewin Finngar was fourteen, according to chapter 2 of tEotW. As for Faile, from the prologue of LoC:

Faile blinked in surprise. Those three were hardly boys. Dav and Elani were as old as Perrin, and Ewin was her own age.

It was about a year after they Perrin left the Two Rivers that he met Faile (he left in what should have been spring, they wintered in the Mountains of Mist after Falme, and he met her when they came out of the mountains into Ghealdan). So that would make her 15 to Perrin's 21. 

Now I have seen it mentioned that RJ admitted this was a mistake and he aged her, but I have not seen that direct quote exactly. 

42 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Thanks for your input, it is an interesting perspective. Though age, I think we can see as irrelevant, otherwise we are getting into the area of statutory rape and I don't think that was ever the intention. I think we can safely assume that however young they are, they are sufficiently emotionally developed to have a serious relationship. The alternative does not bear thinking about.

 

However it still seems that the people who are speaking in Faile's defense, as it were, are ignoring that Faile deliberately punished Perrin even though she knew that he had done nothing wrong. Like with Berelain, the situation could make sense from Perrin's point of view, that he is trying to navigate a difficult situation and yet Faile is jealous/hurt despite his best intentions. But we also see it from her perspective, where she knows that Perrin is completely faithful and true, yet continues victimize him anyway. That she fully understands the culture clash, understands simple honest Perrin (so manly 🙂 ), yet does not inform him about anything in her head while continuing to be outright cruel to him. It is not a case of poor communication, Perrin lays his cards openly on the table. Faile refuses to do so, and despite knowing exactly how things are, and takes it out on Perrin. 

 

That is why it seems to me to be such a male perspective. It's like we see that Perrin is confused, he is trying to be honest and a loving partner, trying to give Faile what she wants. But the communication is difficult, true to life, emotions confuse things, and up to this point it all seems believable. But then we see Faile, and there is no other side of the story. She sees it exactly the same as Perrin does, that he is honest and well-meaning, and she is contrary and cruel. There is no confusion, no difference in perspective, no misunderstandings. Faile is just Perrin's perspective reversed.

 

So that why, in my little theory, I can see why to some men Faile could appear relatable, as presumably she did to RJ. But it would also be the reason why no woman would ever connect to Faile, not on this issue - obviously there is more to her character than this one aspect.

But Perrin did do something wrong, he was insipid and weak in how he rejected Berelain right through the books, at no point did he plainly say "this is never happening I love Faile" he avoided her, dodged her, ignored her kept telling Faile it was in her head (not in so many words but through his actions), and just refused to put an end to it, until it was to late and he was alone in her tent, and even then he was to distracted to put an end to the rumours. 

If I had a women all over me like B was, and I acted the way Perrin did then I would expect my wife to be as angry at me as she is at her because through my actions I am almost encouraging it, and this is where the age thing does come in, if you assume Faile is 20 to take away the ick I have yet to meet many 20yo's who are emotionally mature when it comes to relationships, and many 20yo's would react in this same way to someone hitting on their partner (male or female) and their partner not reacting in what they see as the correct way. 

The theme of the book is based on the idea that 5 young people have to grow up and mature beyond their years far faster then they should, so you should not assume that Perrin is worldly and experienced beyond his years when it comes to how to "handle" a women. 

Now I expect show Perrin to be different because he has been married, I also expect him to be submissive and not get angry for the very real reason that he killed his wife and will always be scared he physically hurts any future wife so will be reluctant to be drawn into any argument. 

I think the first really key thing that we all need to remember about Faile is her age, there is some debate over this, if you take the book as canon then at book start and when she meets Perrin she is 14/15 years old, when they marry she is 15/16. Now supposedly RJ stated this was an oversight (not seen the exact quote or when he said that) and said she was in fact closer in age to Perrin, but even if that is the case you have 2 characters who in terms of emotional and physical experience with the opposite sex are basically the equivalent to being 14/15 years old. So yes they make mistakes, but they love each other, unconditionally (which is obvious because they both do things to annoy the other).

Perin's failure is not showing Faile he loves her other then telling her now and again while also then pushing her away emotionally, hiding things from her and generally being aloof and distant. Faile's reaction to this is to get angry, which is not surprising, add into this cultural differences and you have a situation that is going to need work and time. It is telling that when Perrin finally fully opens up to Faile and she to him that is when they become a unit. It is almost as if the moral of that story is don't keep things from your other half, and let them share every burden and issue you have, but to get there the characters had there own journey to take, with lessons and learnings and a bit of a character arc. This si why I say it is the most realistic relationship written in WOT, and in many ways Faile is the most realistic female character in terms of her emotions and how she reacts to things, because we see the 2 characters change and grow and impact each other. 

On 10/3/2023 at 6:58 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I'm not sure which option is more terrifying, that you are right or mistaken.

 

It is one thing to want to be appreciated without having to tell someone that you want appreciated, another to know that your partner loves you, means well, would do nearly anything for you, but to punish him for not acting in a way that you want him to, in a way he cannot possibly know that you want him to, and point-blank refuse any communication about it no matter how often he asks, no matter what he tries. 

 

Trying to see this as a difference in perspective, but it is really difficult. But obviously we disagree no the extent I don't really think discussion is possible, our views are too far apart. So probably just best to leave it at that.

Oh she has flaws, and with all fiction those are made more extreme, but I have yet to meet any 15/16 year old who is emotionally mature, and that is how old she is when she marries Perrin in the books (something that readers seem to choose to skip over, she is 14 when she meets him). So yes she acts like a love sick teenager, because she is one. 

On 10/3/2023 at 9:27 PM, Chivalry said:

Didn't the Aiel of the books consider wetlander women oppressed?

 

In the last episode, IIRC, Aviendha asked Perrin if his ring meant that he was someone's property. Have they turned this stereotype upside down?

Not oppressed, prudish, with odd traits like caring how they look, and wearing fancy clothes. 

20 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

This is how the in the book WT AS removes the oaths, but I don’t recall seeing how the dark removes oaths in order to facilitate Darkfriends taking their new oaths. Maybe it’s done with an oath rod, but I got the sense the Dark doesn’t need an oath rod per se to accomplish this 

The black Ajah confirmed to the tower AS this is how it was done, it is also confirmed in all the companion background info that this is the case. Verin also confirmed it by the fact she was looking for the oath rod to remove the Black oaths from her. 

17 hours ago, Rhaze said:

 How would it have required more screen time? If they had walked into the Amyrlin Seat instead of Gitara's private quarters? It would not have, at all, in any way. They could have ended the scene the same way with Gitara dying... if they never addressed the scene again because of time restraints, it would never have changed anything. If they ended up with more seasons and more time, then they could always show more...

Because you can't just leave that it is general knowledge in that scene and then have so many aes sedai shocked that the dragon has returned. You have to spend screen time telling the story of how the secret was hidden by the black, you have to then explain why the 2 where not killed, and then show them becoming Aes Sedai and the pact they make. People really don't seem to understand that this story has to make sense to non book readers much more then it does us book readers because it is non book readers that are the key audience because there are more of them. There was a massive debate about how Liandrin got 3 girls out of Tar Valon, can you imagine the questions and debates about why is it that every Aes Sedai apart from Siuan and Moiraine has forgotten about that prophecy? 

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Faile was a bit toxic really. She expected Perrin to telepathically know why she was annoyed and would not communicate with him about it. She was physically aggressive. She punished him for things, even when she knew he was sincere. She actively tried to circumvent things that he wanted because she knew better, and did not talk to him about any of it. She took ownership of him, none of this Well, if he would be happier with Berelain then I want what is best for him, because she decided what was best for him, what he wanted, and how it was going to happen. 

 

Imo, it really detracts from her character. 

I saw a young girl who had no idea how a real relationship worked and came from a culture who didn't "talk" she had grown up seeing her parents and others never have these kind of conversations and so didn't know how to. She had grown up watching her mother and the other women in her life do that very thing to there husbands, know what is best and so go about that very action. She also understood what Perrin could and couldn't do, and what needed doing, she understood that leadership is sometimes ugly and you can't please everyone all at the same time and sometimes the hand has to be cut off to protect the arm. She also understood that sometimes deniability was better for Perrin because he was so honest. In terms of the punishment, she was at times immature, but again, a young women, her first romantic experience, and it was nothing like she expected. Also, the if you don't know why I am pissed off I am not going to tell you is a very real thing that many men, including me, have experienced from our significant others in the past, as is having your significant other be angry at you for what you can see as no reason, but from there perspective makes perfect sense. It is also something almost every character seems to be like in the books, She is probably the most realistically written female in the books from my perspective. 

I read everything she did as coming out of love and a lack of experience, on both there parts, and of course she saw the man she wanted and battled all opposition for his affection, I have yet to meet many women who in that situation would just roll over meekly and let someone else have the man they wanted without putting up a fight, and if a women did to me what Berlain did to Perrin my wife would stab her, no questions asked. Faile in 1 year, 2, 10 years will have grown and her and Perrin will understand each other much much better. 

On 10/3/2023 at 5:30 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

What did lanfear actually do to siuan? I can’t discern exactly in what way she injured her. She’s clearly incapacitated.
 

Another thought I had was that if siuan had suspicions that moiraine was a Darkfriend because she “lied” about being stilled, then that would make any oaths she had taken previously null. So siuan must have realized that if this was true then she should have been unable to exploit the oath rod scenario where moiraine vows to obey her and therefore force her close the way gate. I wonder if she realized how far she had erred in even suspecting such a thing and this is why the erosion of trust on her end was irreversible and how moiraine was able to walk away in that moment. 

In the books Aes Sedai had no idea Black Ajah where no longer under the 3 oaths until about book 10 or 11 I think, and in the TV show there is no real indication that back can lie, other then Liandrin (and only the wonder 3 know that right now). 

On 10/3/2023 at 5:38 AM, Ralph said:

interesting, but not sure that is true. do we know how the dark friend oaths revoke the three oaths? do they not remove them with the oath rod or something? 

 

and she could have been a dark friend before that oath anyway

Spoilers form the book. 

 

50 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Wait, what does it look like when gateways are opened? I forgot 

The description as I saw it was a single line of light in the air that then splits open, in my mind that splitting action is not uniform so you get a circular shape, but they may be ruler straight meaning you get a square.