12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

When it comes to "Mystery who done its", something I as a viewer absolutely detest, is when they reveal the guy who did it out of left field, and it's someone you've never seen before.

It's like doing a Detective Holmes novel where you're on this journey of "Is it this guy, or that guy" and then in the end he's like "Yeah, it's actually THIS GUY who I've never mentioned until NOW!".

I agree this made me stop a second, I made the mental assumption that Verin was somehow involved, but with no proof on screen that is supposition and no one can confirm or deny it. However it didn't seem to bother my wife who enjoyed it all regardless, interested to know if other non book readers also didn't really care. 

11 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yep. And we've covered the whole girl-tower-escape thing to death. lol

They cut corners, and implied a conspiracy for those looking to thinking about it. I'm fine with that.

 

This though is just a harder pill to swallow.

A woman can no more teach a man to channel than a fish can teach a dog to climb a tree.

 

Yet, we had Lan figured out some random obscure knowledge regarding the Forsaken, completely off screen, when we've mostly ever seen him brooding, mediating, or standing around shirtless.

Involving Verin is only conjecture. We don't know that she had anything to do with it. As written, it could 100% be Lan that figured it out with no help from anyone, and he got his eureka moment after talking to Logain. No Logain would have been horrible... And not just because less Logain is bad for the show! He rocks every scene he's in!

I dunno, I feel like if any scenes hit the cutting room floor, like Lan in a library, reading a book, or even any interaction with a brown Ajah, that the editors did a lazy job in terms of continuity due to Amazon's BS adherence to "run time restrictions".

We may well find that Verin telling Lan about an old forsaken trick long lost was filmed, and then found it's way to the edit room floor because it either broke flow, or there where concerns the way it was done it tipped Verin's hand to much. or it may just not have fitted into the run time of the episode. Sometimes things can't make it into a show, and not showing it does not mean that the writers can't flashback to it later, maybe during a reveal montage. 

13 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

He didn’t? Stuff wasn’t adding up so he talked to Verin about it. 

 

Why shouldn’t the problem have existed? (Don’t say it wasn’t in the books, that’s not a real answer). And how was it sloppy? 

I would have liked to have seen that a bit more succinctly, another sign that Verin has more knowledge of things then she should, and not just because she is a brown and the clever ways she can bypass her own oaths to get that out there. 

On 9/29/2023 at 6:06 PM, Guire said:

I hate harping on this but Perrins story is RJ reflecting on war.  You are a nice guy who has all the tools to be good at violence.  You kill someone and then have to deal with all the myriad conflicting emotion.  you feel enpowered while hating what you can do and does it make you a bad person.

 

Then you are faced with the bad things your enemy is doing to you and your friends.  do you unleash your violence because its righteous or in self defense.  Why is your life more important than people you kill even if they are bad or you are supposed to hate them?

 

Then when something you see as truly good or beautiful pops up in your life you cling to it like a life raft in the ocean.  It may not be the healthiest relationship from most peoples perspective but it is the person you can trust and love.  In the presence of chaos and violence this is how you stay human.

 

In show Perrin is not defined by killing a stranger like a soldier would, he is defined by killing the person he is supposed to love the most and protect.  Then we get the tawdry 3 some fake out with Egwene.  Perrin is a much darker person and way less relatable.  He may become entertaining and beloved.  Right now I hope they just kill him off.

I really never saw the issue with Perrin and Failes relationship, you can see through the books both are trying to accomodate the other, Faile has only ever seen one kind of relationship type from everyone in her life, and Perrin another but they love each other completely. I imagine if they hadn't had the small issue of the end of the world, raising an army, fighting, negotiating and dealing with everything else going on around they probably would have come to understand each other a lot better a lot faster. As it is considering they where only together in reality for what, a year or so, then I don't think they are doing bad by the end of the book. 

8 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Now that we’ve wrapped up the Moiraine shielding question, hat did that whole storyline accomplish that couldn’t have been done with her retaining her powers?

It stopped her going off and being able to do stuff, it kept her out of Rands story in a logical fasion, it allowed her to face off a foresaken with no powers, and it premptied when Siuan loses her powers and what she has to deal with. Mainly it meant that Moiraine could have a role in season 2 when in the books she is not in other then a few pages at the start and then the very very end. 

2 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

Yeah me too as the dominoes that fall and the chain of events after this is basically how Siuan ends up being Amyrlin and Aviarin ending up as head of the Black Ajah.

After Tamra is killed by the Black, a hardass Grey becomes Amyrlin but within 5 years she pisses the Reds off so bad they have her killed. Seriously right lol

Then another fearsome woman becomes Amyrlin from the Blue I believe and she catches the Reds gentling men on the spot without trial or even informing the Tower they were doing it. These Reds are punished and 3 are even exiled from the Tower.

Then she after about 4 years, being almost 300 years old passes of natural causes.

Meanwhile the Black sister hunters kill all of Tamra's hunters, even lose a few themselves and are not only killing any child they find born close to when the Dragon was, they're also killing kids that are kinda close that exhibit any out of the ordinary good luck. 

This is when Ishamael makes his set every 1000 year appearance, he finds out that the head of the Black Ajah wasn't trying to just find the Dragon Reborn but is trying to kill him. He is furious, loses his sh!t and kills her where she stands which in turn is how Alviarin becomes the new head of the Black.

 

So now with all the killing along with the exiles, every sister that was strongest in the Power or held a lot of influence were gone leaving Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Sheriam and Elaida as the strongest in the One Power Aes Sedai left outside of Cadsuane who most of the Tower thought was passed by now anyway.

That paved the way for Siuan to become Amyrlin, Leane her Keeper and Sheriam as Mistress of the Novices while Moiraine was free to search for the Dragon Reborn. Elaida took off to Caemlyn because of her own Foretelling as an Accepted about the Lion Throne being the key to the Last Battle or something like that (this actually had to do with Rand's mother Tigraine not the current line so tough luck b!tch lol). It also helped that she was one of the Reds that was punished but not exiled for Gentling men illegally and getting out of the Tower for a bit sounded like a good idea lol

 

At the same time, all this said, I don't think there was any way they were getting all this into the TV show. Hell we all had to dig and dig just to figure it all out from the books. Most of this was not surface information that you're putting together in just one read through lol

Hopefully we get a little of it though, even if it's just some Easter Eggs. That would be cool.

The story is good, but really is 2-3 episodes all on its own and ultimatley is not important to the story of how the EF5 get to the last battle having gained all there powerups and abilities. Peter Jackson identifed the important thing with a story like this, start at the end and work backwards identifying only the plot points that matter to get to that end moment. Then sketch out your movie, and, as you do see if there are other bits you can add in that the fans will love. 

Now he had it far easier because LOTR is a largely linear tale with a very clear set of scenes that easily run one to the next. WOT was always going to be far harder to trim, and, all those bits that needed to be trimmed most of them hd a lesson or a point that would always ned to be represented in a different way (Perrins Fridging, as much as I wasn't a fan, in one second of action you cover off about 20 chapters worth of initial character build up). 

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Given that at this stage Elrond is over 6,000 years old and has spent the whole third age as effective king of the high elves in middle earth from his perspective 80 years is hardly significant and Aragorn is still just starting out (and in the films at least he has not been seeking to take up the burden of kingship).

But in the books Aragorn KNEW he was king, there was no reluctance about it, no feeling like he was not worthy, he was king, leader of the rangers and one day he was going to marry his elven princess. Elrond in the books was also far more grandfatherly and less of a D**K but that is just 2 of the dramatic changes to characters that Peter Jackson made that I personally still don't like, even if I can appreciate how good the adaptation was. 

 

7 hours ago, Chivalry said:

 

I definitely think this is the case, and that heightening the tension is one of the objectives. And I can see the benefit of weakening the young folk, so that they arrive at their strength through a process. 

 

Still, I felt the books established early on that Moiraine was special, even among Aes Sedai, and Lan was special, even among warders. Seeing them fail so often so early (or at least seeing them diminished, in the case of Moiraine) has been a bit of a letdown.

 

Part of this, of course, is personal taste. We're not all going to appreciate the same aspects of the books. I do think RJ "trained" the readers to expect certain hierarchies (for lack of a better word), and he was a stickler for certain things (like what could and could not be said about the One Power). This person is stronger than that one by this much, this person is taller than that one, this person is more capable in this way than that one. After so many pages, we get accustomed to this type of precision.

 

And the series does not seem at all attached to any of this sentiment. Does it matter? It might to some of us, but not everyone.

Moiraine and Lan in books 1 and 2 are the Gandalf and Arragorn equivalents, by book 3 RJ was trying to retcon Mpiraine so she was actually "just another Aes Sedai" yes in the upper ends of the power scale, but her lack of Tower exposure had left her weak in the political side of things and even her influence over Rand was stripped away by RJ in book 3. Moiraine of the start of the series is not the Moiraine RJ would have written had he known it was going to be a 14 book epic. I think it is also part of the reason he wrote Moiraine out, she had become a pointless character, to powerful and knowledgable to keep in, and probably boring to write for. SO he lets her go out in a blaze of glory and knows that if he decides to later on he can bring her back (I am not convinced at this point he was going to). 

7 hours ago, Chivalry said:

 

I definitely think this is the case, and that heightening the tension is one of the objectives. And I can see the benefit of weakening the young folk, so that they arrive at their strength through a process. 

 

Still, I felt the books established early on that Moiraine was special, even among Aes Sedai, and Lan was special, even among warders. Seeing them fail so often so early (or at least seeing them diminished, in the case of Moiraine) has been a bit of a letdown.

 

Part of this, of course, is personal taste. We're not all going to appreciate the same aspects of the books. I do think RJ "trained" the readers to expect certain hierarchies (for lack of a better word), and he was a stickler for certain things (like what could and could not be said about the One Power). This person is stronger than that one by this much, this person is taller than that one, this person is more capable in this way than that one. After so many pages, we get accustomed to this type of precision.

 

And the series does not seem at all attached to any of this sentiment. Does it matter? It might to some of us, but not everyone.

When the author has to keep adjusting his own power scale throughout the series I think you have a prime example of how he wrote book to book rather then having a clear multi book arc with all the lore etc all mapped out. He would create characters and then have to shoehorn them into his power scale before realising that he needed to add levels to the top because people where getting more and more powerful. 

The TV show at least has the benefit of knowing up front the limits and restrictions of what the characters will and wont be able to do and so can now plan an arc that clearly shows those powers being discovered. 

8 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I really wish they'd stuck to this. Would have been more compelling IMO.

And it would have required much more screen time to show something that doesn't really matter to the story of how Rand gets to the last battle. You show them with the Amirylian at the viewing, you have to show the Amirylian being killed by Black Ajah, have to explain why the girls where left alone, have to then show them becoming aes sedai and making the pact, you have to waste 10-15/20 minutes extra telling all of that story for no benefit to the viewer whatsoever. People really don't get that all the fat has to be cut off the meat of the story to make a cohesive tv show that covers the main touchstones of the books. There is one story that matters, the story of how the main players get to the last battle, in the right place in terms of skill, emotions, character etc. Moiraine is not a main player in this, we know her role is going to diminish season to season, Siuan is not a main player in this, therefore the viewer only needs to know why they are looking for the dragon reborn, and why they are so connected to each other. The easiest way to do that, show them making plans to live a long and happy life together and then show them finding out something horrific that only they trust each other with. 

11 hours ago, Ralph said:

New topic - just saw Unraveling the Pattern's theory that Siuan was Compelled to act as she did in this Ep. 

 

What do y'all thinks? 

 

not certain how to connect the dots, but we have not had any follow up from Liandrin asking Leane if she even knows where the Amyrlin is. 

 

is this all part of the "crippled" Amyrlin? and bringing about the coup, of course

Compulsion makes no sense, the way she acted makes a lot of sense for this Amyrlin in this story, Rand has been off on his own doing next to nothing for months, he has been engaging directly with a forsaken, and shows no hint that he is actually accepting of his responsibility. People say Siuan is acting different to the books, no, if the same circumstance had happened in the books she would have done exactly the same thing. There are moments in the books she has doubts as to if she has done the right thing. 

The Coup will now come because it will become clear she knew, and she did not inform the tower until to late, it will come because the Black in the tower will claim Moiraine was allowed to escape that is why Siuan went on her own. 

On 9/30/2023 at 9:23 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Yes, I think RJ did very well in general with the "magic". Magic is irrational and can be a real issue in stories where it is just so arbitrary. The only thing that caught me while reading was how fashionable it was. When shielding/blocking was introduced, all the battles were about that. Then when another feature was introduced, like undoing fireballs, that was all the rage. I think the books do well, it much less intrusive than I have seen in other fantasy stories. 

 

What I did mean though was not new weaves, but clever use of simple weaves, I just felt that sometimes RJ did not want to touch channeling the way he would for example marshalling troops or swordfighting where cunning and craft were equally as important as outright strength. That may be a deliberate choice as it is easier for the reader to think about Rand being more powerful than Liandrin, unless she has some clearly defined ter'angreal for example, as it makes channeling easier to understand as a whole.

 

Because also, channeling has at its base, something of a paradox. On one hand, it is an incredibly complex literal weaving of five powers. The combination of powers, the number of different patterns of weaves, the size of the threads of the power, etc., leads to an unfathomable amount of potential different weaves. The specific skill to to weave this must be immense, like being able to weave every single tartan from memory, and then some, it speaks of massive ability in dexterity, memory and precision. On the other, the One Power is inherently intuitive. Wilders can learn to do things without any training. Rand could empower Bela, making her as strong as a horse (no, wait...) without killing her, or causing a heart attack, or any thing else. An amazingly complex technical weave, handled with amazing dexterity, but entirely by intuition. The story does not work without this aspect, but it does undermine the concept of it being such a technical, near mechanical system. But yes, magic is as magic does, because (*sob*, *sob*), it is not real.

 

Awesome reply, by the way, welcome to Dragonmount, may you always find shade and water, may peace favour your sword, and may you live long and prosper. 

 

Wait...

I would be really interested to know if the clever use of weaves (especially gateways) in the final 3 books came from BS's head, or where in RJ's notes as potential uses. Brandon is far used to writing about Magic in his worlds and i wonder if he couldn't help but bring his own flair to the one power. 

7 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

I do not think the Oath Rod would help with the madness and channeling.

 

The key reason, is it corrupts the mind into thinking things are there when they are not.  Androl's shadows, and Naeff's Myrdraal are examples of that.

 

Eventually, I think that had Nynaeve had not Healed Naeff, he would have started channeling to kill those Mydraal, and then his madness would have made anyone he looked at look like one, and so channel to kill it. I doubt the Oath Rod would have stopped him.

I don't think Naeff was going to start doing that, the whole point was that his madness wasn't getting any worse, it was just now a constant. 

I have completely forgotten what this major characters arc has been until this point of the story. 

 

6 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

I am of the opinion than any Wheel of Time and Wheel of Time adjacent content is good content. 

 

I mean they could have done us dirty like what happened to RoP. You think our fanbase is vocal? Eep. 

 

That said even the most faithful of adaptations would have found detractors. Less? Probably. But all good things are subject to the winds of change. 

 

The current winds dictate the current adaptation. Perhaps in the future should there remain demand for such - we could see a retelling. 

 

I mean Max is about to reboot Potter and totally hijack one of the greatest movie scores of all time lol. And their fandom just got a new banger of a video game. 

 

I would kill for a new video game in our fandom. 

 

I want content, I want to grow, I detest stagnation. 

 

I mean look at Star Wars - my kin in that fanbase had to suffer through so much shovelware just for a few gemstones. And its not a Disney only problem - this goes back to Lucas era. Disney just has had the unfortunate ability to produce so MANY turds in such a small window. Lucas really had to stew on his. lol. 

 

People coming to vent is also content. So carry on. 

I can confirm as a Tolkien lover I find it amusing when people claim this is not the WOT when what has been done to Lore in ROP is far far far worse. Again I understand the logic of some of the changes made for that franchise (time compression allowing the same actors to be around for all the seasons), but there are many I really don't like. 

Potter, I am dreading the remake, it is still far to fresh and new and the films still very much hold up. I also wonder how it will be received given all the controversy around JK. I know many many potter fans who are now feeling awkward about supporting any new works. 

But yes, WOT was always going to need to be changed, made different, and no, none of us saw this version, but, I think that is why none of us write a TV show, the writers have had a very very difficult job, trying to take all the stuff i the books, make it something that viewers would want to see, but we have discussed that over and over. Some of us are enjoying it, other are not I would say there is a definite scale in reality with actually very few people at either end (100% love it 100% hate it). 

But adaptations are hard, Foundation on Apple TV shows that even a very small book needs massive changes to be made to make it a good tv show. 

24 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I was wondering if the bond between lan and moiraine was reestablished now that she can access the source 

The bond was never gone, Moiraine shielded it, then got shielded herself meaning she couldn't unshield it. 

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think the show is playing rather loose with who can see what in terms of weaves. While I may be dumbing it down a bit, it seems to me that the idea is that everyone can see everything, unless the show tells you otherwise. Of course now perhaps the male/female division has been put in place, and I think I saw somewhere that damage weaves, I suppose weaves of fire and so are visible to all, but indirect weaves were not visible (though not sure where this information came from). For the difference between Logain and Rand, I think they are just playing on the concept of Logain being the self-taught master and Rand being the beginner-in-denial rather than making any actual distinction in ability.

 

Then again I have shown that I am not exactly keeping up with the show's plot so far, so maybe that is just a bunch of rubbish I have typed 🙂 

In the recent interviews this was clarified that certain channelers (not all) can detect the ability to channel in others as an innate talent, The Damane that points at people is one, Logain is another. They cant see the weaves or what is being chnneled by someone of the opposite sex but they do see that channeling is happening, and how much, by seeing a bright white glow that increases in intensity based on the power levels involved. 

 

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think the show is playing rather loose with who can see what in terms of weaves. While I may be dumbing it down a bit, it seems to me that the idea is that everyone can see everything, unless the show tells you otherwise. Of course now perhaps the male/female division has been put in place, and I think I saw somewhere that damage weaves, I suppose weaves of fire and so are visible to all, but indirect weaves were not visible (though not sure where this information came from). For the difference between Logain and Rand, I think they are just playing on the concept of Logain being the self-taught master and Rand being the beginner-in-denial rather than making any actual distinction in ability.

 

Then again I have shown that I am not exactly keeping up with the show's plot so far, so maybe that is just a bunch of rubbish I have typed 🙂 

Sarah or Rafe said that in the TV show seeing the ability and power levels is a talent that can be held by men and women (and both can see that men and women have the ability I believe, hence Logain could see Nynaeve was channeling, just not how powerfully). I think they have also decided that a talent is not linked to the ability to channel so someone could be stilled and still have a talent that does not require channeling. 

9 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I haven't seen any other comments on this, but I wasn't sure how to feel about Lan's dialogue with Rand before he was presented to the Amyrlin. While the scene was based on a similar moment in TGH, it did not feel earned.

 

Amazon Show Lan has very little connection with Amazon Rand. Amazon Lan did not train Rand with the sword (he even seemed surprised/amused when Rand defensively reacted with one of the sword forms), and he hasn't really expressed much concern for anyone other than Moiraine or Nynaeve.  In the context of the show, this scene felt like cheap fan service.

 

Will we get the wonderful Ingtar speech from TGH in Episode 8? Again, if we do, it will not feel earned. Ingtar has barely spoken this season. We don't know this Ingtar.

 

I do think the writing in general has improved from Season 1, but there are these truly annoying moments that are hard to overlook, and Episode 7 felt like the weakest episode this season.

I agree with you and I think it shows the issue with 8 episode seasons and just how much story needs to be compacted into them. 

45 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

That shall be decided in court, as the federal anti-trust regulators are currently suing Amazon for the very thing. 

Ok that’s related just to its online shopping experience, like I say they could shut that down tomorrow and the company would barely notice it. Any revenue lost would be cancelled out by no longer having to maintain the warehouses, pay staff etc. 

The technology arm is where the future of the company lies anyway, and they are so big and so well established because they are so reliable and just so much better than the competition. There is a reason that when you view a movie on Netflix Amazon is what is used to stream that movie to you. 

Another thing, which is insane to consider, Amazon power every other major streaming service. Netflix, Disney Plus, Apple TV, Now TV etc all pay Amazon to host their entire infrastructure so it is no issue to Amazon if they lose viewers to other streamers lol. 

On 9/26/2023 at 10:12 PM, WheelofJuke said:

Being an illegal monopoly (allegedly) isn't enough for Amazon? 

Gotta get some ads in now, too? Sheesh. 

Not renewing Prime next year if I can convince the spousal unit. 😐

I mean not sure how they are an illegal monopoly, they are certainly a monopoly in terms of the online shop, but, the ironic thing is that they could close Amazon and prime down tomorrow and it would barely impact revenue of the company overall because they make most of their profit on there Tech and web/cloud services AWS which ironically Netflix, Disney plus and Apple TV all use to host there streaming service. So Amazon powers pretty much every other streaming service on the planet lol. 

On 9/29/2023 at 4:30 PM, Mirefox said:

In the books he kills a Whitecloak.  I believe it was to protect a wolf.  This advances his character traits a lot better than a made up wife-fridging and stays true to the books.  His internal struggles and motivations came from that first kill.

Yes and no, it allows us to see the internal monologue of it all and develops it over the course of multiple books, by killing someone close to him in episode 1 you kickstart that starting point of his story with an action the audience can fully understand meaning you avoid wasting precious time making sure viewers understand “subtle hints” at things. 

On 9/30/2023 at 1:33 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

I think we get Tear in 2 episodes (Callandor, Doorway, Faile / Berelain, Invasion) , then they split up as you listed. Nyn and Elayne sneak take a certain something something back to the Tower, setting up their rat catching escapades in the Tower before heading to Tanchico. 

 

 

Rafe has again stated that season 3 is all book 4, he said in the recent twitter interviews that season 2 completes the book 3 arc. 

On 10/1/2023 at 5:08 AM, Vartija said:

I think I see what they tried with his apology (him being so duty driven that he takes an extreme view of protecting her, which is an admirable quality), but I didn't really like the imbalance of it. Moiraine should be just as apologetic towards him. She's the one who masked the bond ever since S1E8 which practically made his job impossible. Then she irrationally insulted him as a bad Warder early in S2. Even if we understand it was to push him away I don't think show-Lan saw it that way. I got the feeling Lan thought he had failed her by not understanding her condition (stilled or shielded?), but to me that's asking too much from Lan. He's not supposed to be the One Power expert in the relationship. 

 

Anyway, when Lan apologized to her I thought the obvious response from Moiraine should have been "there's nothing to apologize for" and take part of the blame. Now they kind of made it look like he was the only one at fault. Maybe they'll get Moiraine's side of the story in next episode because now they made her (unintentionally?) look a bit inconsiderate. 

Moiraine at this point in the books is much the same, it is why she becomes so desperate and almost frightened when the dragon reborn Rand goes off on his own, and then at the start of the shadow rising he goes about doing things his own way and cuts her out of his decision making. Then she has her visions of the future and realises that she can’t try to control Rand but at best can try and just educate him and show him his options. Lan actually becomes angry and Rand for how much he almost breaks her. In the TV show now Rand will always have it over her that he saved her life. 

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

well, then either the algorithm is worse than we think - because many of us never saw any youtube ad for wot despite being fans - or it's a lot better than we think - because the algorithm recognized we are fans enough that we would follow wot and know the s2 release through other channels, and therefore it would be pointless to show us the ad - like the metaphorical preaching to the choir.

 

i don't know which is scarier.

 

in any case, there was an objective lack of advertising, caused by the workers strike. some dump in the ratings is to be expected. how big? no idea. I'm not qualified to say if keeping this show is lucrative for amazon or not

I also think it is hard to gauge what Amazon and other streamers are looking for, a big number up front, or a constant trickle of viewers over an extended period of time, there are a number of tv series that really became popular after seasons 2 or 3 and then draw in new viewers several years after episode 1 and this is a strength of streaming TV, you can just view it whenever.