7 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It seems silly to kwibble about such points, but Egwene will be broken if not rescued. That is the point, you cannot resist. They can hurt you worse than Whitecloak Questioners let you sleep and start all over again and again. And as the a'dam is in your head, you cannot even have rebellious thoughts. Egwene has had to convince herself that she would never hurt Renna, could never. She must submit, and convince herself that she has submitted and will never have any thought of not submitting. That is why it is so horrible. In most situations like this you have to convince your captors you are broken (like for Loial, for example), with the a'dam you have to convince yourself you are broken. There is no way out, the way of resisting, strength of will just makes it take longer and hurt more. 

 

The show might try to make it look like Egwene is resisting or overcoming it, but that would be selling the horror of the situation short. Egwene is completely dependent on outside help to escape, and she needs it quickly before she is completely broken. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that she can do to resist or escape herself.

All you say is right but in the books Egwene does fight, although at one point she tells Min that she does not know how much longer she can. 

22 hours ago, Vartija said:

Really liked the Egwene submission training. Even when you kind of knew what was going to happen they managed to make it emotional and meaningful. I thought Madeleine Madden was great in those scenes. Probably the best acting I've seen at least from the TR5.  

 

Minor quibble about it: I thought the final scene with Maigan could have been done better. We didn't need to be told "I was a Sitter of the Blue Ajah". They already established that in the episode and in that scene it came off like needlessly reminding the viewers. I think it would have been more striking if Maigan had acted more like she's already forgotten that part of her past. We would still have been able to connect the dots by recognizing her face. 

 

I thought the Wonder Girls at Falme was pretty good as well. I liked the sacrifice the Yellow did to save the girls. I liked when she called Nynaeve "sister", that felt surprisingly emotional. They're doing a consistent job with Nynaeve being the impulsive one and Elayne the sensible one. Felt like a solid starting point for their friendship. 

 

Overall the episode was entertaining but there we definitely some things I struggled with. Didn't like Lan blabbering to Alannah about the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine's strategy feels a bit all over the place: could she really be surprised Lanfear was able to manipulate Rand to a path she doesn't like? Should have been obvious to her before she told him to get close to her in the dream that it might go bad. 

 

Still don't like Min's arc. Am I missing something here or are they really making her wanting to get rid of her visions the driving force for her character? Doing a deal with the "devil" so casually just irks me. 

 

Liked Rand & Mat's reunion, as long as it lasted. I understand Mat's motivations not to go with Rand after hearing about Min's viewing. Seems like the noble thing to do at that point though we know he'll still end up in Falme somehow.          

She didn’t say it for us, she said it for Egwene, the fire it gives Egwene at the end, this is the start of her journey she will not be broken. 

On 9/22/2023 at 4:12 AM, DreadLord31 said:

Well… my initial reaction//first thoughts:

 

1. We got confirmation in Moiraine’s letter that she is stilled. 
2. Egwene/Maddy did an amazing job acting - truly heart wrenching.

3. Love Elayne//Ceara

4. The CGI was mostly bad, some decent moments - but on the whole - bad. 
5. Some scenes just rub me the wrong way - Moiraine/Lan/Min

6. Do not like what they’re doing with Matt (still…) 

7. Lan is one of my favorite characters in the book & has been just butchered by the show. 
8. Liandrin//Lanfear are the stars … so I guess I’m cheering for the Shadow in this adaptation? 
9. Nynaeve still seems to me to be the most featured protagonist. 
10. I think the fighting choreography is probably pretty good - but their editing is SO bad - really hope they fix that by the finale. 
11. Overall, I’m still intrigued & it was above average/entertaining Tv. And I’d rate it a 6 out of 10. 
12. That being said, the up and down quality of episodes…has me really concerned about maybe getting another “Wa Wa Waaaa” finale. 

 

We got confirmation she thinks she is stilled. I am still not 100% on that 

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think you are also downplaying the importance of the visual impact of any scene. This is completely different that the written media. While you are obviously prioritizing faithfulness to the book above all else, I'd say if you were making a TV show you would have to give far more weight to how something looks. 

 

I mean it is a dumb example, but take Harry Potter and the way wizards dress. No problem with anything, runtime, etc, having their awful dress sense faithfully shown. But how does it look? What atmosphere does it create? The impact in the book is totally different, even though it is still characters dressed stupidly. 

 

And if every thing about a book is looked at this way, you have to look at how you can create visually emotive scenes. And possibly the best way to do this is to add things to be able to guide the story to these set pieces. I did not like the Stepin addition, particularly what it did to Lan, it made him too emotional, and too emotionally attached to things other than Moiraine, but Stepin's funeral was a visual feast, and while I thought it was a bit weird, I was there with Daniel Henney, he sold me on his grief, and it was an experience. A bit scary actually. 

 

And yes, in a worse case scenario, the makers pursue these visual set-ups over the story. and over the tone of the books (elves using shields as skateboards perhaps). But to not recognize that this is how you make TV and films is just being naive, in my most humble opinion. 

 

Why don't they follow the books more, is because that is not what they are trying to do, they are trying to make a TV show, and who would fund a TV show that set out to be faithful even if it made bad TV?

 

Season 1 had to be very different from the books as they had to be upfront about it being about the Dragon, and I think they have brought it pretty well back to the core plot lines.

Book 1 is also very different in style and theme to the rest of the series. RJ himself has talked about how he had to write a traditional fantasy story that was like lord of the rings because that is what his publishers wanted. Book 2 very much feels like him trying to change direction and then the end of book 3 we finally start to see the story that he wanted to tell. 
 

For the TV show the writers have to stay true to what RJ turned the series into and really change the sense of the story. In the books Moiraine started out as Gandalf and Lan as Aragorn but by the end of the books. There was no real journey for the characters to take, he spends books 2 and 3 trying to change both characters making Moiraine less of a driving powerful force, and giving Lan a softer more emotional side, which granted we only see through other characters eyes and Nynaeves little comments. 
 

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

This.

 

Detective Verin doesn't need to spend a lot of screen time on the ferreting out the details of how Liandrin got the girls out. She can "talk" to a Aes Sedai while paying more attention to the people in the background doing suspicious things.

 

She could then use the other Brown Sister to exposition dump the conspiracy of how it was done to the audience (without an re-enactment).
We think we know compulsion was used, so there's no reason to think Liandrin and company couldn't have used it on guards to get the girls through the tower grounds, and that can all be said in a couple of lines.

Liandrin had an accomplice. She used Compulsion on a warder or two (remember the one talking to Nynaeve earlier?) to get the girls out of the tower and onto horses. Compulsion to get the out of the tower and to the ways.

Her accomplice used Compulsion on Sheriam, not knowing Sheriam is also BA... and I'm going to bet that we'll see that reveal at the end of the season...

Poor Sheriam, I have a feeling she will be on the end of black ajah plot after black ajah plot, if for no reason then it makes sense to maintain her very important cover. In the books she seemed to know pretty much all the black ajah sisters, largely because she had recruited them as misstress of the novices, so I can see her actually telling whoever it is that tells her the books needs updating to compel her to do it so she has true plausible deniability. In the books she really bit off more then she could chew remember 😉. 

19 hours ago, Samt said:

Yes, some changes are needed.  In particular, a lot of things will need to be combined, condensed, and streamlined.  My original point is that the complaint that there is not enough runtime is inconsistent with the fact that they are adding lots of things that don't condense or streamline the books.  They are just additional content.  

 

I'd add that the aversion to exposition is a little too strong, in my opinion.  Of course, we don't just want someone literally talking to the audience for the whole show.  But fantasy in particular needs some amount of exposition to really work on the screen.  You have to explain things about the world and lore in ways that you don't have to when the story is set in the real world.  It just needs to be good exposition that is accompanied by good visuals or fits organically into the story in ways that also tell us about the characters.  

really disagree with the exposition comment, no story needs loads of exposition to explain thigs ot the audience, episode 5 showed this, some really key story and lore points where brought across organically in conversations and interactions that made sense. 

9 hours ago, Samt said:

The sheer length of the books and the expected runtime of the show gets brought up a lot in the context of why the show must make major changes to the source material in order to meet the runtime.  I thought I would add some numbers for context comparing to some other popular adaptations of fantasy or fantasy adjacent novels to screen.  

 

IP Name	Novel Length (pages)	Screen adaptation length (minutes)	adaptation rate (pages/minute)
LOTR (theatrical release)	1191	557	2.14
Dune (assuming movie 2 is the same length as movie 1)	896	310	2.89
Harry Potter	3407	1180	2.89
WoT S1/TEotW	782	480	1.63
WoT S2/TGH	706	480	1.47
GoT (5 seasons vs released books)	4224	2885	1.46
WoT all books vs 64 hour long episodes	11898	3840	3.09

 

Going by raw numbers,  adapting the WoT in 64 episodes wouldn't be a much greater rate of adaptation that Dune or Harry Potter.  Considering the first two seasons are mostly just covering the first two books, the rate of adaptation has been practically glacial comparatively speaking.  

 

Of course, this is a very rough metric.  Not all pages are the same size and some of the page counts contain various appendices, elvish poetry, etc.  But WoT also has tons of recaps and descriptions of cities, hairstyles, horses, cleavage, and everything else you could possibly wonder about.  It's not like the content is super dense per page.  Moreover, the later books slow down and start to have lots of self contained subplots that are quite cuttable if need be.  

 

The notion that the WoT is just too much content to fit into 64 episodes doesn't really bare numerical scrutiny.  

That ooks strngely familiar, would have to go back but I did a post with much of the same information on it, don't think I included Dune I did include the Hobbit, I also dd something with the length of the audio books. The overall outcome of it was that WOT requires far more cutting, but, the other thing these stats does not take into account is how many of those "words" are doing stuff and how many are describing the scenary, or exposition. WOT has a unique situation in that the set piece battles are actually given very few words on the page, and yet on the screen will need to take up, in some cases, entire episodes. The battle of Emonds Field is one that stands out. 

WOT also has a lot more POV internal dialogue, presenting that information on the screen will be much harder. But the main point that comes across is that the story needs to be re written in some way in order to be logical and make sense while all fitting into the limited number of episodes. 

17 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

I think that's the part I have a problem with.  the sooner she is not the main character the better for the story.  At least her plot is merged with Rand again so it should be more central.  Hopefully Lan can be merged soon too, his storyline is really dragging 

she has started that process by telling Rand it was truly his choice. This is the start of him taking more control of his own actions and as we know will lead to him sidelining her for a while. 

14 hours ago, Sunkiss said:

Does she still have one with no powet?

Hope so. Matt is planning on playing no limits poker with her 

10 minutes ago, Elgee said:

 

Yes it should be quite obvious!

I must say I love this Avi, though I don't think she's much like book Avi. More like Bain or Chiad.

She really makes me think of Chani from Dune, especially the way Zendaya plays her, really wondering if that was a big influence to the writers, or the actress. 

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Or do we still need to talk bathroom logistics?
 

 

I mean that is something no TV show or book thinks about when someone is tied up for days on end lol, unless said bathroom break is an opportunity for escape. No one wants to think about the mess in the basement, back of the van, shipping container lol. 

2 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Well you guys are having such fun going over this, I'm surprised the show's writers could resist. They could have made a whole series just about the kidnapping. It would have been awesome. Think of the suspense! The excitement! The unconscious young women!

I really am looking forward to the 2nd 3rd and 4th times the girls get kidnaped (assuming Rafe sticks to that constant theme fro the books)., I hope the trend of "how did the girls get fro A to B" being kept secret is a running theme in the series, I doubt the internet would have anything to debate if it wasn't for this. 🙂 

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Yes the novices roaming the tower has been an irritant, not as much however as them being able to gain access to the room housing the 3 arches Ter'angreal easily was though. Having a camp out down there was just insane.

 

My problem is its a shit plan. Anyone seeing 3 bodies loaded into a wagon is going to question WTF is going on. There is always a chance of being lucky and not being seen but it's a big chance to take. Why not have Nynaeve who you have built up a trust with simply meet you at the waygate.

Why are they? 3 bodies covered in tarpaulin, hidden from view, am aes sedai leading the cart, which is driven by a darkfriend, telling anyone who asks she is really looking forward to collecting white asparagus from the farm she is visiting. Aes Sedai are not questioned by anyone that is not Aes Sedai, and a red Aes Sedai even more so if the guard is a man. You claim to be a lover of the books and yet you are ignoring some basic facts that have been shown in the TV show and we all know from the books. An Aes Seai can't lie. So Liandrin saying clearly, this cart is empty there is nothing you need to see in here will not be questioned. 

But also, Nynaeve followed Liandrin through one set of tunnels, who is to say there is not another tunnel that leads somewhere else? But really, it doesn't matter, for someone who didn't like Steppin you seem determined that the show runners should have wasted TV time on showing something that is just a standard TV trope, we have seen in many many many tv shows people getting kidnapped and hidden in carts etc, we don't ned to see it yet again because it isn't special, it isn't "magic". If something unique had happened in getting the girls into the ways then it would warrant a bit of TV time, showing a compulsion weave for instance, but in the absence of any screen time just accept the simplest explanation, she hid them in a cart and got them out of the city. 

Now, I do think that discovering the note in the book about them leaving indicates that Liandrin had help, and it makes sense that right now the writers don't want to show who helped her. Logistically there was no time for her to move the girls, run upstairs, change the entry and then come back down and escape. So I think there will be a reveal of at least 1 other aes sedai who was there, in the tunnels with her who then went and handeled the book. Maybe Sheriam herself. 

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

In my experience, visual mediums tend to avoid this. It is too confusing for viewers, gives issues with actors etc. Just like Selene looks exactly like Lanfear, I would imagine that most characters will continue to look the same. 

 

Of course it could be that being reborn by the Great Lord will be so significant that they will do it, with the suspense of who are these characters, but my guess is no. Perhaps a Quantum Leap moment of looking in the mirror, and saying "Oh, boy" but I would really expect that when the audience knows that Moridin is Ishamael, that he will look like Ishamael to the audience, with perhaps an interim actor while it is unknown, and then he will just use the Mirrors of Mist. I'd say it is just one of the rules of TV, that characters need to be instantly recognisable. Of course, we'll have to WAFO.

The swap of Ishy to Moridin is a key moment in the books, and the reveal it is Ishy is held off, therefore you can easily introduce a new character as nae Blis and have little nods that this is the same bad guy as the first 2 seasons. I don't think an audience that has been invested for 5 seasons (moridin probably would come in season 5) will be confused. it is very different to a simple change of face, Moridin is a new character in the books he behaves in a very different way. Also the soul swap is key if they stick to the end of the books and go for the happy ending BS gave us.  But we will need to WAFO to see which route they take for this. 

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

For some reason, I think you’re meant to feel this way. They are all really just beginning their respective heroic journeys. Seems like the writers have really made a point of leaning into the characters’ weaknesses and vulnerabilities. 
 

Now we’re meant to see them grow. 

Which is good TV writing, I also am looking at the characters getting most screen time now and think that is an indicator of the actors that might be leaving sooner then later. Ishy is getting some great scenes to chew through, and we know if the books are followed the actor will need to be replaced by a far younger man at some point. Moiraine in season 1 was the central focus and in season 2 has had a good character arc, which all suggests the audience s being led to care about her so they care about the big choice she needs to make. The main characters on the other hand, we have 8 seasons to watch them develop and grow and have great moments as there characters move from being the hangers on they are at the start of the books, to the centre that the story swirls around at the end. 

4 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

To be fair, the leaving his friends thing was never their intended path with him, it was a forced situation with the actor.

The broken home thing is definitely new.

I don't know where you got the he wasn't a thief thing, he absolutely was. If anything went missing in the Two Rivers, Mat was immediately the first suspect and he freaking stole the Dagger in the first place lol

The born to a Forsaken thing is obviously unreliable narrator. Ishy thinks Mat is corrupted just like he thinks Perrin will succumb to the Wolf and we both know Perrin fights losing himself to the Wolf for the vast majority of the series. Just because he thinks Mat is corrupted, it doesn't make it true.

Mat talks like a coward all the time in the books...no way I'm getting involved in someone else's fight or saving the girls from trouble, not this guy, I'm going the opposite way mark my words, they can get out of it themselves...very next chapter there's Mat not only fighting to save someone's life, he's leading the charge.

 

The reality is the only real changes are his harder home life and the out of the writers hands leaving his friends bit.

Anything else is like trying to get water from a stone and more about being a hater than a critic.

It also takes Mat a long time in the books to willingly go and be the hero, most of the time him being a coward ends up putting him where he needs to be to help the light win. Most of his decisions all the way up to the last few books are him trying to run away, even the impressive tactical defeats of the Seanchan are so he can get the red band to safety and away from any real battles. 

6 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Didn't Verin say there were 3? 🤔

I know, Verin telling a lie 🙂 

14 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Good quote lol but like how Rand's mythos is clearly King Arthur, Mat's mythos is clearly Odin, RJ didn't even try and disguise it.

Spear, losing an eye, being hung, right down to Odin's Ravens Munin and Hugin (translated to english, Memory and Thought).

Yep, I just hope that when he and Tuon have a child he gets Perrin to make him a hammer 🙂 

On 3/14/2023 at 5:39 PM, EbouDarien said:

Slightly surprised to see a focus on "favorite books".  Like Lord of the Rings, the "books" of course are not really separate books, but just sections of one big book.

 

Otherwise, the twists and turns from book to book (or section to section) are striking sometimes.  I am in the middle of Book 6, and I find I have to reread much of the text because I become lost in the convoluted plot.

 

Least favorite character:  Nynaeve (just too cranky, and does not give due credit to characters like Mat, who she should know defeated the Shaido Chief in single combat).

 

Favorite characters:  Aviendha, Elayne, Min, Mat, Rand al'Thor, Rhuarc, Berelain, ...

I often read them in isolation, or as pairs now, for me the weakest are books 1 and 2, and 14 is up there, yes it finishes the story but AMOL just dissapoints me more and more every time a read it in just how badly it is put together as a story. There are good moments, but in my opinion, those good moments are just surrounded by Brandon Sanderson crap. 

The Shadow Rising is for me the best book, after the "prologue" of books 1-3 where Robert Jordan was finding his voice and shifting from the Fellowship copy that EOTW was into his own voice and world, I feel the shadow rising is the first real moment that RJ gets to write the story he has been wanting to all this time. For me personally it was also the book that opened up my eyes to the truth of the world. For whatever reason I had not picked up on the fact that the Age of Legends was a high tech future earth, I had always assumed, like most fantasy, that the age of legends was just another age of castles, horses, but with far better magic. 

Then I love that middle section that many others seem to hate, I never got lost on the middle, I never found that the perrin saga dragged, or the politics boring. So yes WOT for me is a definite bell curve. 

 

11 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Noticed now Lanfear pretty much dissed all the other Forsaken, especially "the boys".  I hope the show doesn't take that tack, especially if Ishy is knocked off this season.  We need all of the Forsaken to be formidable.

This is pretty much on brand for all the forsaken from the books, we are constantly seeing from there internal POV that they look down on each other, there is always a comment about there strengths, but with a vey big "but" attached. 

11 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Y'all are missing out when you don't watch the Origins; and when ya go on to preach that the show should stand on it's own merits as if that's some kind of slam dunk on the show.... well content is content.

 

It's like gloating about not watching "The Animatrix" and have only seen the "Matrix Trilogy", all you've done is missed out on some great content!

I mean for me the Matrix is one movie and the animatrix, and that is it, much like GOT ended at season 5. The Animatrix holds up even now as a fantastic piece of anime. 

11 hours ago, Mirefox said:

In generally agree, except for the motivation problem.  Right now, Rand knows next to nothing about the Aiel and likely fears them as much as Trollocs based on his misunderstandings.  Without Tear and the doorway, why would he go to the Wastes?

So I pointed that out, the doorway does not need to be in Tear to push the story forwards, Tarok could have it in his possession, having "liberated it", or it could be somewhere else. The doorway not being in tear does not make Tear worse, or weaker. 

8 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

So WAFO.

The arc has been set in motion. Clearly, they are going to pay it off. You seem invested in assuming that they won't be able to do it well. If you've been paying attention though, Mat is struggling with his cowardice. Liandrin's little speech had the opposite effect of what she wanted - it got him thinking about what kind of man he wants to be. He almost talked to Egwene. (Progress) And now he has formed a bond with Min. (Emotional hook) I suspect that finding one or both of them in danger will be the catalyst for him to finally do something.

Also in the books he was constantly trying to avoid conversations that he should have, so that bit was very Mat, I also don't think Mat is being "cowardly" he made a choice at the portal, we have not seen why that choice was made, I imagine his explanation will come at some point this season when he meets up with Rand and Perrin. 

6 hours ago, Skipp said:

Agreed but to address Mirefox, yes it completely disrespects the book. And yet despite that it is a fantastic film that people sometimes forget to look deeper into.

 

Odd thing I just realized is that there is an interesting parallel between Starship troopers and Wheel of time, specifically Dumai's Wells.

 

I find that a lot of fans cheer at Dumai's Wells, especially at the "Kneel or you will be knelt".  ultimately nothing wrong with that, I had the same reaction when I first read it.  It was about time that these manipulators got put into their place.  But after years of reading WoT you come to realize that this particular moment is not ment to be cheered, it was a victory for the Shadow.

 

How does this relate to Starship Troopers?  Well it is the same idea.  The good guys capture the bugs and win the Day and you cheer along with them.  But there is a reason the "good guys" officers are dressed like the SS...

I remember watching starship troopers as a teen and wondering why I was the only one feeling sorry for the bugs, especially at the end when the psychic one is being cut open with a saw blade (think it is at the end). 

But yes, the entire Rand vs White Tower fiasco almost handed the shadow the war. 

13 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

True, but in this case Moiraine witnessed it so Liandrin couldn’t have lied, here.

She absolutely can, if the lie is one that has been perpetuated by the Shadow for the past 1000 years.