19 hours ago, Wassup said:

For some reason, I imagine the number of people that would list Prime Video as a factor in their decision to subscribe to Prime would be pretty low.

 

Most might not even know it is included.  My wife didn’t know Amazon Music was included until I told her years after we had subscribed. 
 

 

I am one of these, I am subscribed to prime for the postage and packaging and free next day/fast delivery options. The TV service comes as a benefit that I take advantage of, but don’t see as the core reason for owning prime. I have yet to use the music service mainly because I get Apple Music free as part of my mobile phone package (I also have Apple TV free for the same reason), personally Apple right now is producing consistently by far the best original TV of all the streaming services, yes Netflix and Amazon have good series but Apple is just great across the board. I don’t understand Amazons model for revenue for TV they do not advertise themselves as a TV service. To be fair though the Amazon Shopping service is now days barely worth talking about in terms of Amazon total revenue, they are a tech and web services company (AWS) with a corner shop tucked away in the back. They could close the Amazon store and Amazon prime tomorrow and it would barely impact revenue. 

On 9/29/2023 at 5:12 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Right.

 

Amazon not picking up ad spots for YouTube is on Amazon. I don't think I've seen a single WoT Ad on Youtube...

On the other side, youtubers who follow WoT news will have picked up on those interviews and distributed that information to people who follow them.

So if you're also not following YouTubers who talk about the WoT show, you're also not going to get any information about it that way either.

I went through a period of seeing nothing but WOT adverts on YouTube, the great algorithm strikes lol. 

11 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Too early to jump to conclusions on this. Mat's flicker flicker moment in the books was very similar as he came out of it pleading with Rand to believe him that he wouldn't betray him.

And how many times does it have to be said...stop superimposing book 3 and beyond Mat with book 1&2 Mat. Mat was easily the least likable of the main characters in the first 2 books and kind of a dick to boot.

 

The finale and next season will be where we truly see where they're going with him, JUST LIKE THE BOOKS.

People really seem to forget that Matt in books 1 and 2, following on from RJ's "influence and homage to LOTR" was basically his Gollum character, I do wonder if somewhere in the ether there is a version of the story where Matt becomes Mordeth who then has to work with Rand to defeat the dark lord because Rand needs his "opposite evil", in that version it would be great if the at the last battle they kill the dark lord, only for Rand to relaise he now has an empty prison he has to put his best friend in to keep the world safe and he will one day become the new dark lord in the next turning. I felt that while writing the end of book 2 RJ was figuring out who Matt would become. 

 

11 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Is this not what Lanfear claimed, that Moiraine had set Logain up so Rand could reach him in her home city. But Moiraine (who cannot lie) said that she had moved Logain to keep him away from Rand who she thought would be at the Tower. 

 

Or am I misremembering? Or do people just want to believe Lanfear for some reason, as if her smoldering sexual energy is actually a sign of sincerity?

Rand asked Moiraine if she sent Logain to Cairhien because He was there, or he might have suggested she suggested Rand go thee because Logain was there, any basically Moiraine said that she ensured that Logain would not be in the white tower so Rand could easily gain access to and learn from him. 

Ok so my usual episode review, as always watched alongside my wife who has not read the books, knows nothing about the books and has warned me on pain of bad things (well her never watching the TV show), to not even mention the books and what is the same/different etc to her. So I am getting at least her perspective as a non book reader. This is also very different to my previous reviews, this is for 2 reasons, first, these threads are all getting very serious (I am equally to blame for that), when this is a fun series lets have a laugh with it. but also more importantly, I am very sleep deprived right now and so just spouting some nonsense. 

So short version, I liked it, not as much as the previous episodes, my wife loved it but did ask why it took the Aes Sedai so long to get to Lanfer, 

Ok, this felt like a weaker episode to me, and not for the reason I think many will think, but I think this episode in it's entirety shows the issue with an 8 episode season vs a 10 episode one. The writers have done such a fantastic job these last 5 weeks of slow building some of these major plot points but are then forced to resolve them in a blink of an eye due to time constraints. But that for me meant a weaker episode. 

Rand suddenly can "cut" a weave when previously his ability with the one power extended to no more then blowing things up, setting things on fire or blowing things up while setting them on fire. This was the most mary sue of mary sue moments, akin in some ways to Rey at the end of the last Jedi. Rand also is supposidly now a blade master without having actually had proper training. I hope that in episode 8 we see a nifty training montage of him, in the mad house, putting a jacket on and off again, or making and un making the bed while a crazy mad man tell him it is training, then, at the end of it is told, what , no you won't learn the forms that way, I just remember an old story told by a gleeman once about a man who trained a boy to fight like a crane by making him do chores. 

On that Lanfer showing that 3000 years ago Foresakens great secret power allowed them to......... make bigger explosions with a bigger fire and stroll through it like a bad ass before "disappearing", while the Aes Sedai showed that they are incapable of doing anything quickly and without a committee meeting even when being attacked by one of the foresaken. 

Barthanes, is revealed, then dealt with in a second after the most obvious of secret hidey place eavesdropping moments. I would have thought Liandrin would have at least put up a weave to stop eaves dropping., I would also have thought that if you where hiring someone to kill an aes sedai they (the sell sword Barthanes is talking to), they would also be a bit dark friendy you know, juts to make sure they don't turn on you. I also hope they pay off that Liandrin's plan was beaten by Moiraines sister putting her ear up against a wall, that needs a real demonstration of Compulsion "you shall never again listen to or hear another's conversation" seems an adequate punishment. But it also seems that Liandrin has gone from being able to hide the fact she has a son, let alone that she is a dark friend, to just happily announcing the fact to anyone that will listen. 

Matt is "kocked out" and taken to falme (it seems in WOT tv show every characters nemesis will be being pushed into a wall, Nyn and Elayne last episode, Matt now, lets hope that at the last battle Moridin doesn't just push Rand into a wall). But he is there, looking this shows version of sickly, from the looks of episode 8 Fain has handed the dagger over? making me wonder if Mordeth will even be a character in the TV show, I mean, he wasn't much of one in the books, seemed to be someone that RJ would suddenyl remember about now and again. 

Nynaeve and Elayne "figure out" how to put on the collar off screen, and then just "figure out" it will work on a Sul Damane in a remarkable leap of logic that even the books don't show, I am sure that in TGH it is Egwene who figures out the secret? 

Egwenes collar power training will consist simply of her learning how to do a strong wind blast, in the books the key thing about her character is that pretty much all her training in the power has come from non Aes Sedai, first from being Damane (say what you will about it, it was a pretty good way to get Channellers learning fast how to do the hard stuff), and then becoming Aiel for a little while. If the sum total of her away from tower training is going to be a month or so collared and then a bit of time in the dessert then, ok. 

There where some great moments, Learning about Toh, and the way that wolf reacted, Rafe and Sarah both said about Gaul WAFO, which is usually writer speak for yes (if he wasn't going to be in it we would have had a wooly answer about how not all fan fav characters can make the show), so I am nt s worries about this, it makes sense for a Maiden to be out with other maidens, especially if that maiden is trying to avoid other responsibilities. 

Matt and Ishmael. This incarnation of matt is so so so much better then Book matt at this point in the books (basically RJ's version of Gollum with the dagger being the ring), I am open to the tea being the gateway to his other lives. Which leads me to a segway. 

So, the doorways and tear. In his twitter interview I think it was Rafe (might have been sarah) made the very valid point that I myself have made here which is that books 2 and 3 are basically the same general story following the same kind of themes, so filming them linearly was never going to be an option, wasting 2 seasons on more walking across randland chasing a thing/person/running away. But, I think as a result Falme will be Rands "tear moment" he will do something to reveal he is the dragon without any doubt. I am ok with this, I did a thread where I said that tear could happen after the adventures in the 3 fold land, but, I had not anticipated removing the doorways. Again it makes sense though. 

Filming the doorway will take both time (more then the 5-7 minutes Steppins arc actually took up on screen), and budget to end up with Matt just having some questions answered, you could get the same effect with one doorway, maybe Matt sees both types of Finn, or one tyoe but they both Answer questions and grant wishes, or so I thought, but, giving Matt that information a different way, for instance mad age of legends mushroom tea, doesn't really bother me. 

In Lord of the rings Peter Jackson made a choice not to include Tom Bombadil, but, in doing so he also removed the wight barrow scene from the books. Now this is actually a very very key scene, in the books at least, after Tom puts the wight to sleep he participates in a bit of good old tomb robbing (proving that even the most whimsical of characters has an inner indiana jones in them), and gives the Hobbits minus Frodo (who has a magical glow in the dark sword, thats an aside, if there are orcs about do you want your sword always giving you away?, anyway), swords forged for the battle with the Witch King of Angmar (chief ring wraith, no man shall ever kill me all that gubbins). Later in the books Merry stabs the witch king, and Tolkien writes that the magic that was forged to battle this ancient enemy of that long forgotten land reawoke and undid the magic holding the witch king together meaning Eowyn can then strike the killing blow. Now for me in the books that was a really clever and really important connection following through a theme in all of Tolkiens work of "never throw away anything you find under dubious circumstance because it might prove to be useful, or world ending, or both". 

Now the reality is that thinking about it, while seeing the doorways would be great, much like Tom B for me it is not important to the story, what is important is that Matt gets his memories, the mechanic of "how" can be changed because, it has to be because, there is only so much TV time and a journey into the Doorway to ask a bunch of questions will end up taking about the same amount of time Nyn's journey through the arches did. And then you need to do it a second time to get the gifts, sarah on being asked if the Finn would be in the series said something cryptic like "which finn" this again is writer speak for WAFO which is writer speak for, it will be coming, as opposed to "we have to make hard decisions what to cut and keep from the books, rest assured every decisions is made carefully". 

Um Siuan, many seem to be hating this incarmation of her, I am very much in 2 minds, in the books I always saw slivers of doubt that she had done the right thing in letting Rand wander free early on, the chaos and destruction he brings on the world I always felt sat heavy on her because she was the one who could have taken him at the start of TGH, instead she helped manipulate him in the hope that Moiraine would maintain control of him. So in this it all lines up with the books. Siuan, in this set of circumstance, I think might have acted like this. It also opens her character up for the coup, why did she go to Moiraine alone, why didn't she take 14 sisters with her, that then leads to an unraveling of her and moiraines plan, which leads to the coup. As opposed to the very shaky evidence the sisters had in the books (driven by the black ajah). Also, I am very much of the view that this wil mark the end of Her and Moiraines romantic relationship allowing both characters to follow paths closer aligned to the books writers love a classic tragic love story and Siuan and Gareth is just that, and Thom and Moiraine can bond over how they both loved powerful women who let them down. 

Perrin, was there, not much more to be said about that, continuing to follow book perrins inability to really grasp a proper handle on anything that is happening around him, while still being able to bumble into doing the right thing, be that while leading an army, ruling a province, or knowing when to eat with cutlery instead of like a wild animal. This also maintained a trend later in the books that RJ started where only 2 of the 3 boys could ever have any major storyline happen to them at any one time. 


 

So thought this was worth its own thread vs being added to the interview thread. 
 

An interview with the episode 7 director going into, among other things, the Matt changes. 
 

wont preempt anything will let people watch and offer opinion. 

On 9/29/2023 at 9:38 PM, Mirefox said:

I’m confused about pacing.  I thought going in to this season that this was supposed to be books 2 and 3.  Yet we are seemingly going to finish right where 2 finishes.  Are they going to conflate Falme and Tear, or maybe rush Tear to start Season 3 and out to The Wastes from there?

Rafe said that it was going to emotionally be books 2 and 3 and I think it was Sarah said there is a lot of repetition between the 2 which is all being cut so I don’t think we are getting tear at all. 

On 9/29/2023 at 11:02 AM, Hippolyte said:

I still can't believe Moraine just left the Amyrlin Seat wounded on the ground before leaving town with the Dragon and a Forsaken! Why didn't she wait and use her new-found power to heal her lover of many years? She did the wrong thing, leaving her there. She is supposed to know right from wrong. The only way she might be able to redeem herself is to rescue all the Ais Sedai imprisoned in Farne.

Because she feels betrayed, hurt, upset, the relationship between her and Siuan is well and truly over meaning she can go and find solace in the arms of Thom and Siuan can learn the importance of keeping to Oaths with gareth. 

Siuan effectivley assaulted Moiraine, there is no coming back from that. 

On 9/29/2023 at 6:46 AM, Rhaze said:

 I am guessing that they will use the suldam as a fake damane and dress as a suldam themselves to enter the kennels to find Egwene. That is when they realize that a suldam should not be able to wear a collar, and the secret is exposed.

 

 There were a few things to nitpick. Like someone above said, I thought it was poor writing to have Lan come out with the "I read some where that back in the age of legends they could tie off weaves".... just a silly thing to say. He could have said "Verin said she read some where..." and it would have made much more sense just by adding a few words.

 

 I am really curious if Moiraine's sister will now expose Liandrin or if she will stay out of Aes Sedai business. Liandrin should be getting exposed really soon.

If Verin had been the one to "hint" at the possibility that would have been another great little nod to her role in the books, she might have been made aware of what really happened to Moiraine and then been able to circumnavigate her vows to help. 

On 9/29/2023 at 4:21 AM, Rhaze said:

 I am so freaking glad Moiraine's sister is NOT a dark friend. I am proud of her accomplishments in some silly kind of way and I did not want them to be lessened because of her being a DF.

But she now knows Liandrin is a dark friend, no weave to stop eaves dropping, just making the instruction in person like that, I wonder if this was Liandrin going rogue? Or the first hints of Lanfer working against ishy

On 9/29/2023 at 3:16 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It fits with the books - Aes Sedai are smugly convinced that they know everything it is worth knowing (about the one power and everything else) and until something new is rubbed in their faces they do not admit it exists.   Aes Sedai do not know how to tie off weaves therefore they cannot be tied off and she is not able to think otherwise so she must be stilled.  

 

But I really do not like the "one forsaken could not have stilled you" - when Rand breaks the shield at Dumai's wells he stills multiple Aes Sedai at once.  

I always saw that as almost like a feedback event, we see it through the books, Egwene stills one of the dark sisters guarding them in tear. I think that is a specific situation that can't be anticipated like a "stilling" 

5 hours ago, Kaleb said:

No, Sarah meant that the perception of "the last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai" is a subjective determination for each individual sister to make in the moment. Just like how they can say things that are untrue if they believe them to be true.

She was answering in relation to the 3rd oath not being the same as the books I thought? Might be wrong. 

6 hours ago, Ralph said:

tear I had anyway assumed not, unless much later in a different way

 

where is the second quote from? team doesn't have to mean the writers and directors, they have tens of other people, some of whom may not read English

It is one of Sarah’s comments above. 

So I don’t think we are getting tear in the way we do in the book. 
 

This concerns me, we saw with Witcher what happened when you had a room full of writers who didn’t fully understand the IP. Now at least we have a show runner and key member of the writing team who do understand but if they are having to explain these key points it feels like the other writers maybe haven’t bothered reading the books? 
 

Silly phone that was meant to be quotes not spoilers. 

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Rid_matter: Will Moridin be In the show? I know. The Ishamael fella is more sane, but Moridin was a completely different character that presented a different set of challenges to the good guys

Rafe: We wove a lot of Moridin and his philosophy into Ishamael this season

That is a non answer, so I am not taking as written then there is no moridin. 
 

I might be wrong, but the moridin arc is important in foreshadowing what happens to Rand at the end. 

4 hours ago, Windigo said:

I think we will get Gawyn but maybe not Galad, so Mat putting 1 or 2 swordsmen in their place can happen at any time, with anyone. 

If in season 2 there is a chance that Gawyn (and if cast Galad) could be in Cairhein for the wedding as representatives for their mother. 

It could be Warders, or maybe Barthanes, or maybe happen in Falme, and we just get Mat taking out Seanchan with a quarter staff.  

Galad has already been mentioned in show twice i think, so we are def getting him now , a key rule of storytelling, if you introduce or name a character in passing you must make them a part of the story in some

way, Galad won’t be just name dropped

I am worried by the change to the 3 oaths 

“they are subjective to the individual” 

Does this mean in the TV show they can choose which 3 oaths they take? 

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

but no Ishamael / Moridin body swap it seems

Where do you get that from? Nothing is mentioned about it? 

8 hours ago, ilovezam said:

I meant that the show showed Shienarians fighting the Seanchan just as well as Ryma's Warder did (I would argue they had fancier choreography, too) until they were in both cases overwhelmed.

And surely Lan is supposed to be a way, way, way better fighter than Aviendha (if no OP involvement, of course) 

It showed a group of Shienarians an Ogier and Perrin (plot armour), just about holding there own fighting as a group. 
 

Rymas warder on his own with no other swordsman watching his back took out Seanchan after Seanchan even when injured. 
 

It was clear to my wife (who has never read the books) that he was better, she actually said “why didn’t they put a group of him with Perrin” 

10 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Whoa, don't start being reasonable to Lan, surely that is against the forum rules?

 

Btw, you guys do realise that if you don't capitalise his name, it looks like you are talking about some dude called Ian, which does not sound that exciting to me. One of the reasons I did not enjoy the Matrix is that my hearing is not the best, and I thought the lead character used the cool handle "Neil". What kind of writing is this, I had to ask myself.

I mean movies 2 and 3 I also asked myself, what writing is this, but for very different reasons. A twist like “Neo, you name is Neil, would have been better then the “Architect”  lol. 

22 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Absolutely it was superficial but also pretty accurate. The reality is the girls had a lot more building than the boys in the first 3 books, ok 2 1/2 books. I would argue that Mat and Perrin had more character building in the last half of book 3 than Rand had total to that point.

Rand had some trials and tribulations up to book 3 but he hadn't really changed much or really accepted that he was the Dragon reborn until early book 3 and then we barely saw him for the rest of the book other than the Darkfriend campfire slaughter.

Pretty much the same with Perrin although I would probably say he was the most developed of the 3 by the beginning of the 3rd book but only by a small margin.

Mat from the time he woke up from his healing to the end of book 3 was a whirlwind of development for him. Mat literally exploded (fireworks pun intended) off the pages in book 3. Leaps and bounds, he was pretty much a new character really forming IMO the best duo of the series with Thom. You went from being somewhat disinterested in Mat to sitting up more and getting that feeling of anticipation every time you saw 2 dice in the chapter heading.

And if the last half of book 3 was Mat's breakout, Book 4 was Rand and Perrin's.

I have long felt that book 3 was where RJ actually started writing the story he really wanted to. I also feel that when he realized after book 2 that this would be a much long series he decided to change certain characters probably to make them more fun to write and so this fed into there stories. 
 

Moiraine becomes a lot less the all knowing all powerful Gandalf character, Lan changes from that Aragorn copy to someone softer, Matt, well RJ had a blank slate with him so could do what he wanted. Rand suddenly becomes the confident hero type, almost overnight, in tear reading everything and getting his own opinions (I think done in part to allow Moiraine to have a lesser role),  

You can go through each of the main characters and see how RJ very cleverly in most cases allows himself scope to write them out of the path he has started them on thematically. It shows the problems for a writer in not fully mapping out an entire story from the start, but also how a writer can then get himself out of that situation and create conditions that allow them to shift the character personalities and motivations slightly, 

4 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I think that he might have to go back to the tower.  They will have to take the dagger back.  I think that he'll have some sort of immunity to its effects since he was already healed from it, And he will be the only one that can safely carry it.  As far as i'm aware it's effects can't be stopped just by locking it away.  So he'll likely carry it back to the tower and be rehealed just to be safe, and the brothers will likely come to the tower to visit Elayne and train with the warders in season 3

Why do they need to take the dagger back? In the books Fain gets it before going to Emonds field, he could just get it back at Falme, 

3 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

No, Alivia was 414 years old.

Reanne Corly of the Kinswomen was around the same when she died.

There was talk of another senior Kinswomen pushing 700.

Cadsuane is currently the oldest living AS at just a few years short of 300

 

The average life span of an AS who swore the 3 Oaths on the Oath Rod is between 200-300 depending on power level.

The Oath Rod literally cuts their life span in half.

Need to re read sure there was also a mention of one of the freed damanes being that old. She might not be a named one. 

6 hours ago, Kaleb said:

The Wheel Of Time is - aside from being a wonderful fantasy story - Robert Jordan's main political statement of his views on many many topics. If you read between the lines, you can see it to be just as political as Gulliver's Travels in quite a few of his themes. Political discussion boils through the whole thing, but to his credit, he really did an admirable job of maintaining a degree of humility as he approached political topics like gender roles and sexuality and the role of religion in society and civil rights and tax policy. He doesn't make it a polemic in most senses, he presents all these topics in service of his story and readers are mostly free to see different approaches to all these topics favorably or unfavorably according to their own dispositions.

 

Any adaptation of this story is forced to present discussion of all these topics because they are inseparably woven into this story. There is no apolitical option. In my opinion, insisting that there is such an apolitical option is the most disingenuously political critique around.

I have long said the biggest thing I am impressed with is how RJ's personal religion is not there front and centre on the page, for a man who took communion more then once a week and described himself as high church Episcopalian I would have expected a far more organised religion, churches temples, and a lot more references to people worshipping the creator etc. But Randland does not have this, Rand is not given "god like powers" his powers are tied to the pattern which is not some ethereal being. The only organised religious group in Randland are depicted as the bad guys. 

It is one of my biggest bug bears with Sandersons work, an author who has openly stated he puts his faith into his writing, All of a sudden the creator takes an active part in the last battle, Rand becomes able to "see dark friends and mark them", and the story switches into a very new direction. 

This for me is going to be a more interesting line for Rafe to thread, how much of Sandersons work does he actually use, and how does he couch it and show it vs what are in effect meaningless changes to Lore in regards to the story about non gendered souls etc. In fact I might start a thread about it :). 

7 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I would argue that every bit of art if political to some degree, some just seem unwilling to engage with it on that level (which is fine as well, sometimes people just want to enjoy art as it is without engaging in that). 

 

What I find quite boring about most of the "discourse" today (bleh) is that none of these points are interesting. Rafe has a very particular world view, so what? Is the show working within the parameters that the writers/creators have set? Are their choices for adaptation working in bringing WoT to the screen? If not, why not? That's the interesting bit to me.

 

I may be stepping on some toes or opening a can of worms here but as an example of this sort of thing, I was honestly super interested in the idea of a female Dragon Reborn because I thought it could link into a transgender channeller. I never believed that Rand wouldn't be the Dragon (because Rafe kept telling us that all book readers know who the Dragon is), but the idea that a woman could be, that was interesting. What would happen to a person born a woman, who could channel, but they are actually a trans man? Do they become blocked from the Source once they transition, or can they suddenly access saidin? Do they go mad? Could they be the Dragon Reborn after transitioning? And also the reverse, if someone born a man transitions, can they now access saidar? 

 

Sure, I am sympathetic to the trans community and a supporter of their rights etc., but that's not why I was interested in that idea, it was more about those sorts of questions. And I don't think it's a terrible shame on the world RJ created to introduce a character like that or ask those sorts of questions within the parameters of his world (as best we can). In today's climate online and politically, it would probably be a disaster for the show (I'm also not sure if the writers' could really pull it off - but maybe I'm being harsh), but that saddens me, that even an attempt at introducing something like that would be seen as some sort of extremely woke or political move, rather than just an artistic choice in telling a wider story. 

I have a trans friend who had an issue with WOT because of how it depicts its version of a trans character, halima, however they also accepted that getting in what he managed in terms of strong female characters, hints to same sex relationships and the way male and female roles worked at that time, in fantasy, was a step in the right direction. They are actually is pretty convinced that if RJ wrote wot now, souls would not be gendered either.