8 hours ago, Cipher said:

Does the oath rod work on male channelers?  Too many unanswered questions.

There is a wider questio here about how many Ter Angral work when used only by a woman, but also have a male"setting", imagine, the first time a male channeller looks at the arches and realises that they have a different setting that men can activate. 

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You know, there's a lot of things that are really important to me too that I would love to see represented more in fantasy fiction buuuuuuuut that doesn't mean I'm okay with those things being shoehorned into stories that didn't already have them. 

 

Like, how out of place would it be if Rand saw the Seanchan and all of the sudden had a 5 minute aside where he extolled the virtues of democracy over tyranny? And then what if it kept happening? Over and over, needlessly driving in this theme that is only tangentially related to the story as a whole? You would hate that. And so would I. 

 

WoT doesn't have to be EVERYTHING to me. I'm fine with WoT just being WoT. I have other stories to scratch the itches that WoT can't reach. 

But I am saying it is in WOT there is nothing on the screen that is not in the books, at least as I read them, it is being handled far more delicatly on the screen, you see no flesh, things are hinted at or talked about but not actually shown beyond a few seconds of a fully clothed Alanna and both warders, and I am happy with that I don't need or want GOT levels of nudity or in your face sex, but nothing here is being created or shoehorned into the show that isn't in the books in some form. 

42 minutes ago, Cipher said:

A powerful tool, but also if you catch one in a deliberate lie than you should know something is very wrong.

True, but even in the books it is not until very late on that the Aes Sedai figure out that black ajah can lie and therefore must have found a way around the 3 oaths. Until that moment I imagine an Black Aes Sedai could lie to someones face and it is so ingrained in them that they will convince themselves that somehow the Aes Sedai had talked around a thing, or was somehow telling the truth. It does make me think of Jim Carey crying as he says The Pen Is Blue, there is a comedy skit to be had there somehow :). 

11 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Thom is definitely in TGH. Rand runs into him performing in a tavern. Thom is dating a really young girl (0% chance that ends up in the show. Only relationships with Rafe's stamp of approval are allowed) who gets killed by Darkfriends. Thom and Rand meet up at that banquet/ball thing Rand gets invited to. Thom kills the king of Cairhein. 

Sorry had a brainfart there, you are right for some reason that was book 3 in my head apologies 

42 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Lol says a lot that this is an outlier

Not an outlier, and example, I know many married  and unmarried couples/throuples and more some of whom have children and have been together 10+ years and are in open relationships, or swing, or anything else. It is far far more prevalent in society then people realise, and it is really really good to see it represented in fantasy fiction because it helps to normalise it and help people see it is ok. 

WOT was for me a massive series because it was the first fantasy series I read that showed Poly and Power exchange dynamics in relationships, as a 16 yo in the late 90's who at the time thought I was odd for being interested in those things it made me feel like I wasn't odd at all. It is in no way erotica but if you look at it through a BDSM lens it deals with consent, power exchange dynamics, poly relationships, sex is not in front of you on the page but it is there, throughout it and I am really pleased to see it being handled the way it is on the screen. Alanna is in an open throuple, and it is joked about "where the 3rd man will go" that is actually similar to a line i have heard a friend be asked, for those who live an alternate lifestyle seeing things like this reflected on the screen in a series that is not some high drama, documentry or reality tv show is really refreshing, and it is staying true to the source material because I do wonder, where he writing WOT now post books like 50 shades would RJ have pushed it a little further with that side of things. What he wrote at that time was so outside the norm for main stream fantasy writing that I think he would have done. As much as people want to gloss over it RJ wrote WOT as much to make a social statement and also to demonstrate that a fantasy series could have strong female characters actually being the hero. But he also made the concious choice to write the realtionships he did, and have as much nudity and implied sexual abuse (amongst the foresaken) as he did

3 hours ago, Cipher said:

Rand had a grand entrance into the city with the bearing of a Lord. Lan gave him a crash course before meeting with the Amyrlin and spent some time leading the Sheinarans. Thom Merrilin a master of the Game of Houses was working in the back ground to prop Rand up.  The show is laughable in comparison.

think you are getting mixed up, Thom wasn't in TGH, and Selene has been in his ear, teaching him in her own way how to present himself. 

5 hours ago, Cipher said:

No indicator on screen that Lanfear did anything of the sort. Sure that might be to keep us in the dark of who she is, but as it is a party crashing dude in a nice coat who nobody knows is gonna be the talk of the town?  Ok if you buy horse dung.  In the show Suits a character who faked graduating from Harvard went to a Harvard alum party and some people were like “who the hell is this? We don’t know you.”  Way better writing.

The point was that everyone asked, who the hell is this, everyone tried to figure it out, it is obviously a pretty exclusive party and somehow this new guy, who looks like an Aiel (which is going to get very noticed), is stood there, seemingly as if he is meant to be there, but no one has any idea who he is. This is the French regency equivalent, no one would consider he is a no body who talked his way in because everyone is so ingrained in the game that they can't even consider no one is playing it. If someone did approach then Selene seems to have enough influence, or some inside way of getting in and getting what she wants. 

We didn't see how he got in, and it really doesn't matter, Selene got him into the party and the moment he was there he became important to everyone else because they needed to know who he is, from that point then at least one house is keeping very close tabs on him, but I imagine others where as well. If you are going to overthink it then accept there is a perfectly valid explanation, my wife who has never read the books picked up on it clearly when I asked her earlier how she thought Moiraine knew where he was, without blinking (and without me prompting her at all, I have strict instructions to discuss nothing about the books with her at all), she stated. 

He caught everyones eye at the party because he stood out and that old women, Moiraines sister, kept close tabs on him, they told you that in the show. 

So yes it is obvious to non book readers as well, even if they don't yet know the intricacies of the great game of houses. 

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

true for the general population, but aes sedai can just get healed. I'd think they could be more promiscuous than many.

also, zigzagged in the real world. sure, std were a strong incentive on monogamy - and while I am unable to find confirmations, I would bet that most religions frowning on illicit sex and prostitution stemmed from seeing those disease as divine punishments.

on the other hand, there were plenty of ancient civilizations - agrarian, preindustrial - that were very promiscuous, especially the ruling classes. romans and greeks had sex slaves and widespread same-sex relationships outside of marriage. though that sexual freedom was much lower for women, because of pregnancies.

even in the middle ages europe was a lot less bigoted than it's generally known, with the church pushing for more restrictions on sexuality gradually in the late middle age.

in fact,

the most sexually repressive time was renaissance and victorian ages.

those were the times when you could get burned at stake for homosexuality - in earlier times nobody cared much as long as it wasn't too obvious.

again, a few nobles would stand out, but they were more exceptions.

 

all in all, I think we can't take history to say what is or isn't realistic. in fact, history shows us a lot of different examples that can be used to justify pretty much anything

I mean, there is a perception that certain periods of time where more chaste then others, but the reality is that Humanity has always been very very horny and the next generation always seems to think they have discovered sex when our grandparents smile knowingly at each other and remember misspent youths getting up to all sorts, sometimes it is more covered up and hidden then others but every era had crazy wild periods, especially in the higher echelons of society, of which the Aes Sedai most def are part. 

7 hours ago, Guire said:

Agree 100 %.  I think Avi and Elayne will have an intimate physical relationship independent or coexisting with Rand relationship.  I think Min may be sort of 1 to 1 relationship with Rand outside of his traingle with other 2.  Btw I have never seen these kind of complex poly relationships do well in long run in real world.  I think the royal harem polygamy relationship from book actually has a better chance at working irl.  Its like 3 simple coexisting relationships running parallel and can have decently defined rules.  

I have seen some very succesfull poly relationships, at least up to this point one I know has lasted 7 years, who knows how much further it may run, don't think I could manage one myself, I was always very impressed with the girls who managed to make it all work inspite of Rand. I do wonder how the show will handle this experienced and far more worldly Rand dealing with the 3 women and his emotions without having him come across like an ass, maybe the Selene thing pushes him back and makes him far more wary now, but it is going to be hard to make him the wide eyed sheephearder that couldn't see Min when she was stood in front of him, or had no idea what Avi's feelings where, or tried to push Elayne away. 

6 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Which means the writers are doing their jobs. I note that more of the conversation in here this season is speculating about motives and exploring questions that have been raised on screen. That's good writing...

It is, I think it also proves the point some of us made that if season 1 had solved the tv making issues, production, editing, effects, dialogue and the actors getting hold of their characters then the changes can all be largely ignored by most, I realised today thinking about it I don't believe there has been a single moment of straight up "Exposition" in season 2, the information has all been provided organically in conversations that feel real and genuine with no lines that feel out of place because it was a character saying something just for the audience. 

Feeding into the original question I think that is one of the reasons why we can't pinpoint a timeframe here in terms of ages is that none of the characters have sat there and reeled off a personal history, or given details that make no sense for the scene in that moment. 

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

just saying that she can keep pushing the narrative also after taking the three oaths

"regarding logain and the reds, I spoke the truth" Yes, at some point she certainly said something true about logain and the reds; it doesn't have to cover all she ever said.

"as aes sedai I cannot lie, and I confirm you this: logain was manipulated and set up as false dragon by power groups among the aes sedai" that power group including, most notably, her and leane.

"the reds have allowed logain to flee and gain power" logain fled the tower during the red coup, and he gained power afterwards, so it's technically true

Oh I agree there are ways she can go but she lets it all drop as far as coming from her because by that point the rumour is growing arms legs and a torso and doing it's own thing. The true art of deception is knowing when to stop telling the lie and sit and wait until someone comes to you with there own "piece of news" that you must hear, which is that very lie you started in the first place. At that point no one can ever trace it back to it's source. I think in the books also the rebel group got a bit more caught up with the other stuff going on, like sieging Tar Valon. 

18 minutes ago, Guire said:

I was replying to a statement that show told a better story than books so far for first 3 books.  I disagree.  

There are details the books had that the show does not, and I never expected it to, but I strongly believe that had RJ been able to write the story he wanted to from the very start instead of trying to meet editorial expectations with a LOTR copy for book 1 then we would have had a very different start to the series, I think I am in a minority who see books 1 and 2, and part of book 3 as the weak point of the whole series, they have moments but overall I find them both a little dull and very fantasy formulaic especially 1 and 2, book 3 is where I became more hooked, and book 4 onwards is what I love, It took me about a year to finally get through books 1 and 2 because I found them so meh at the time, and I only did it in the end because I had bought books 1 to 6 in a single go.

I personally love the supposed boring bit in the middle of the series, 8-11, and can devour those books over and over in isolation now days finding them just easy to read, to me books 4 onwards are where RJ hit his real stride as an author and it is where the world comes alive, I know this therefore colours my opinion of seasons 1 and 2 because to my mind books one and 2 could have been so so much better if RJ had been allowed to start with something like book 4 or 5 in terms of the style of writing and what his characters truly where becoming. 

So I am well aware my view is in the minority, although I have since spoken to friends who have started reading the series post watching the TV show and they are in agreement that book 1 is a weak to midling start that they only got themselves through because I promised them it got better (although in this day and age convincing someone to stick at it until book 3/4 is asking a lot lol). 

14 minutes ago, Samt said:

What polyamory aspect? Sister wives means that the relationship between the wives is that of sisters. This is made pretty clear through the whole rebirth ceremony that Elayne and Aviendha go through.  Min is quite embarrassed by being emotionally present through the bond when Elayne gets it on with Rand.  She definitely wasn’t up for being physically present, let alone participating.  Aviendha is able to shield the bond, so she just avoids it that way.  

I am just repeating what Rafe said, he said it would be less Polygamy where Rand has 3 women, and more a polyamory relationship which has been taken to mean there will be strong emotions shown between at least Avi and Elayne we will have to wait and see how this changes in the TV show in reality but my guess is that given what we have seen we might see a bit more intimacy between them in a different way, 

1 minute ago, DigificWriter said:

 

And I think you're ignoring the show's clear demonstration that she does have some redeemable qualities.

 

We're clearly at loggerheads here and just going around in circles, so it's probably best to just amicably agree to disagree and move on.

 

🙂

It is a WAFO thing, and either one of us could be right, or it could lie somewhere in the middle. 

Just now, DigificWriter said:

 

Yes, because doing so wouldn't make practical narrative sense given the choices made thus far.

 

It's possible to make a one-dimensional villain compelling, but you have to be upfront about them being one-dimensional, which has not been the case here despite you and the people you've discussed the show with feeling otherwise.

 

 

She can still be multi dimensional, I mean, putting together a lie that intricate and detailed for reasons is certainly not one dimensional, but it then means you have to go back and revisit every action she has had, and maybe see them all in a different light. End of the day we will have to WAFO but I think you are trying to see the good in a character who has no redeemable qualities. 

I know we have never seen it so this is something to which there may never be an answer but could the oath rod have been used in a way to control a male chanaller before the taint was healed? 

We see that collared Aes Sedai are unable to be used as weapons, the oaths bond them and prevent them from killing meaning the Seanchan have to fund alternate uses for them. So could a Male be bonded to the oath rod in a way that prevented them from hurting anyone when they went mad? Or would the madness override the oaths? 

 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

It is made pretty clear in the book but you are also correct that it is almost never revisited.  I don't remember if Siuan comes clean when she gets to Salidar but it is not discussed much in the books.

She doesn't come clean to anyone other then Egwene who chooses not to reveal the lie, it is revisited a few times, but once she is healed Siuan tries to stick to the 3 oaths again as much as she is possibly able and so stops pushing the narriative, also on losing Logain the evidence is gone so they can no longer parade him in front of rulers to "tell his story" 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Despite the urge from some people to view her as such, Show!Liandrin is not a black-and-white baddie (nor should she be), and there's clearly affection for certain people in her behavior and demeanor, whatever else she might say or do.

 

Her being the Aes Sedai who beat Moiraine to get her past her channeling block actually starts to make more and more logical sense the more I think about it, so now that's the theory I'm running with until/unless the show does or says something different.

 

As far as the face touch goes in light of the Instructor theory, I still see affection in it where others apparently see a creep factor, but to each their own, I guess.

You might be right, but also please accept you might be wrong, will you be disappointed if, when asked about her "son" she laughs at nyn and tells her he wasn't her son, just part of the lie I weaved. Will you be dissapointed if it turns out she is just evil? She has been planning for months to send the girls to Falme to be turned into slaves, how is that not evil? 

6 minutes ago, Guire said:

2 things I noticed not commented on so far.  Rands dealing with Fade was was big call back to Wonder Girls sucking Fade into a flaming black hole when they were captured by outlaws.

 

Possible biggest nitpick of entire show.  How come no one in entire film crew and actors not know how to mop.  Elayne I can buy as daughter heir but inn keeper heir Egwene should be forever shamed for that mop job.  I was hurt to the depths of my soul.

 

 

 

 

 

That was Balefire they used to kill that fade. 

And mopping, I know, all I am putting it down to is Egwene being bored lol, 

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Only if you're determined to view Show!Liandrin as being one-dimensionally evil.

That, the stroke of Moiraine, the comment to Leane, the people I know who have never read the books all think she is just rotten and bad, which matches the books because they have seen enough now in her actions to piece it all together that she is one of the really bad guys. A couple of people asked me if she was a foresaken. So in my circle of friends everyone has come to the same agreement, and this is with me refusing to give them any book spoilers. 

8 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

12 minutes ago, Guire said:

I am just assuming her and Alvarian are merged in some way at this point.  I think RJ presentation of villians is way more accurate than people think.  People act evil because they are selfish, self centered, narcissictic. They ally with people that serve their self centered needs and this is evil to everyone it affects.  That was the means EF5 and allies could defeat the Forsaken and why Dark One favored idiots who served his needs over intelligence or competance.  Asmodean could still make great music but he was a selfish prick.

 

 

Sorry got to disagree here, there is always a reason for people acting that way, why are they self centred, why do they need to have power and control, simply saying that self centred evil people find watch other and work together is simplistic. The Forsaken where all intelligent great people in there age, and age full of decadence and a complete lack of oversight or control, an age where Channellers put themselves above all others. Some of the Foresaken turned because they where about to be caught for breaking laws, but most of them the turn was subtle, taking a long period of time, but we never see that, and thats ok the foresaken are a constant but Taim, why did he turn what was his weakness and what in his background made him susceptible. Villains always have a deeper reason, no baby is born inherently evil, things happen in a persons life to send them down a path. 

9 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The scene as presented makes it clear that she only uses the One Power because of Elayne's presence. She also apologizes before casting the weave.

 

If, as you claim, it was always her plan to abduct Nynaeve and Egwene by using the One Power to knock them out, all we, as an audience, would have seen initially was a wave of wind that knocked them back, followed by Liandrin just appearing.

 

 

And you seem to be determined to view Show!Liandrin in the same light.

The apology was that tongue in cheek bad guy apology, no real meaning behind it she says when elayne is there "this will make things trickier" but it is all planned out and as she intended. 

And I am happy that we are getting more insight into Liandrin, and hopefully some explanation as to why she joined the shadow. But the fact is she is bad, and manipulative and seeking power, so she has been planning this out right up to this moment of knocking them out for months and months. You do not put the intricate plans she has in place, like getting Nyn to follow her through the tunells as she goes to "see her son", or pushing for Nyn to be made accepted so she can then entice her to leave the tower and walk into the trap and then just throw the plans all on it's head because Elayne turns up, you seem to think the apology is heartfelt, it really isn't Liandrin is evil, you don't work directly for one of the forsaken because you are not committed to the dark and all in on the plans. I may be wrong but I really hope not. 

On 9/12/2023 at 7:37 AM, Irvyne said:

Me watching the Wheel of Time TV show...

 

At this stage it's train-crash television: horrific, but I can't look away because it's all just so unbelievably unprecedented and weird. I'm just at a total loss why you would get the licence to such a beloved series and then just rewrite it from scratch. Why not create a prequel or a sequel story if you wanted to write your own plots? There are so many iconic, incredible scenes from the early books that are seared into my memory; scenes that I was so excited to see realised on screen. They are nowhere to be seen. They've been removed. And what's in their place? New, completely inconsequential stories that take up way too much time, and scenes where the beloved characters behave completely contrary to their book counterparts.

 

Thinking back to the king of the adaptations, Lord of the Rings: While there were definitely aspects of that story that were adapted for the screen, it still absolutely FELT like the book series it was based on. It was completely true to the spirit. The Wheel of Time show doesn't feel anything like the books that I've loved for so many decades. It's like some weird, badly-written alternate universe fan-fiction.

 

The sad part is, I quite like a lot of the cast. I really like Nynaeve, and even though he hasn't had much to do yet, I like the new Mat.

 

I just live in hope that maybe 10, 15 years down the track, after this show has been long abandoned, someone will take the reins and do it right. I look forward to that movie or TV series.

 

As for now... I guess I'll just keep watching the train wreck...

You are entitled to your opinion but for me, as someone who has read and re read the series many many times, this absolutely is the wheel of time and the story being told is in many ways better then the very linear and repetitive nature of the early books, which would make for an awful TV show. You mention Lord of teh Rings being the definitive adaptation, as someone who loved Tolkien's work I initially hated them, Aragorn was a totally new character un recognisable from the books, Elrond was also changed beyond recognition, The things that where removed and added made no sense to me and I thought jackson had done an awful job, yes it looked good but he had destroyed the story. 

Then I realised that the essence of LOTR was there, and the changes made for a different story. With WOT all the parts are there, they ave taken pieces of books 2 and 3, which in essence tell the same broad story twice, and merged them together to form a coherent story that has none of the repetition of narrative. The characters are emotionally in the same place they are in the books come book 2/3 Perrin is learning how to be a wolf brother, Matt is starting his escape from Tar Valon, Rand is figuring out his powers and Moiraine is trying to nurture and support him, the death of Selene will start to make him wary and untrustworthy, The girls have been learning and are on there way to Falme and yes, there has been a storyline created for Lan and Moiraine, but they are not in book 2 really at all ad we are seeing a stry that in some ways is better because we get to see aspects of those 2 characters we don't see in the books because at this point in the story they are still Aragorn and Gandalf copies as hard as RJ is trying to write them differently. 

On 9/12/2023 at 8:53 AM, nsmallw said:

Question re Perrin and his "wolf visions". 

The one im thinking about is the one with a  Tinker caravan being murdered by Fain & DF. 

They mention that a girl escaped and then presumbly killed after the dog protecting her was killed. 

My question is was the girl the same as in the DF social in ep 1 ? I remember Fain and his creepy leer at her and wondered if he somehow tracked her and her mother's group and killed them. 

Anyone have idea or thoughts about this particular scene. 

So far we are not sure, there has been some back and forth on this, not sure if the credits give anything away. We also are guessing that they are tinkers, that has not been confirmed, and the thought is that she escaped but the dig died trying to save her? 

43 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

 

I agree completely.  In a general sense, I don't mind having a more fleshed out character and I understand that they are trying to give depth and motivation to one of the protagonists; on the other hand, the show has spent far more time and effort on Liandrin than they have on Rand, Mat, or Perrin (and possibly all three combined).  This is especially puzzling considering that Elaida has been confirmed as an upcoming character - if they had been combining Liandrin and Elaida I can see the time being spent; as is, a shallow c-level character has consistently had the most screen time and writers' focus at the expense of the main characters.

Liandrin is going to be the big bad black Ajah aes sedai, possibly replacing Alvarin, although more likely will be the big bad out in the world threatening the girls, I think it is possible she will have a bigger role in the show then she does in the books where, much as all the big bad's, she is fairly one dimensional. 

My wife is not a book lover and she feels that development has been fairly even across the piece, I think we as book readers are noticing it because in the books she is so flat as a character, Liandrin is evil, because she does evil things and she does evil things because she is evil, oh and joining the shadow seemed the best thing to do, because she is evil and that is what evil people do. 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The sequence as presented contradicts this assertion.

 

You're determined that Liandrin be this one-dimensional villain whose every action is suspect despite the show repeatedly demonstrating otherwise, and it's strange to me.

 

Show!Liandrin isn't and shouldn't be a black-and-white baddie and can have layers and nuance to her characterization without changing the awful things that she may or may not do.

How does it contradict, she appears to them, which instantly makes her intentions suspicious, then she knocks out the girls. She didn't need to knock the girls out, even Elayne being there she can lead them away if that is the plan, but it clearly isn't.