@Storeebooq To be fair to RJ it is BS who screwed up Thom and Morraine, He also suddenly made Thom an overpowered crazy man who could sit at the gateway to the last battle and casually take out powerful channellers one at a time. 

I love the WOT series but I really really dislike much of what BS did in the books, mainly because it was almost really good but instead was just really bad. 

57 minutes ago, Storeebooq said:

Maybe Uno will be raised with the horn =] 

 

I loved Uno/Nyn dynamic in the books and I was pretty pissed he was killed. But it worked, I see the Seanchan as a terrible threat now because I fear they may actually do serious damage to my favorite characters, rather than just fearing what they will do to channelers & the ruling class. If they are not hesitant to take out a fan-favorite...well...dang, they are more threatening than the Forsaken at this point. 😵

I think your safe, Uno's plot armour was weak 🙂 

6 hours ago, Samt said:

If you just want to make the audience fear the Seanchan, you could have killed any number of random unnamed characters (either Shienaran or villagers).  You could even give one of the Shienarans a name and a brief backstory before killing him if you want to make it a little more emotional.  The only reasons I can think of to kill Uno specifically is either because the creators want to take out some personal angst on a fictional character or because they specifically wanted to misdirect book readers who might assume that he was safe (Agelmar not withstanding).  

 

This idea of needing to misdirect book readers (whether earnestly believed or simply used as an excuse to justify making changes) leaves me worried about the story.  I'm sure there are some book readers that are in for the thrill of it and want to be kept guessing.  However, I think most would be completely interested in watching a WoT adaptation even if they could basically predict all of the twists and turns as they were coming from the book.  Changes can be made or needed for lots of reasons, but changing to misdirect book readers is basically just changing it because you want to prove that you can.  I think a much healthier approach to adapting is to ask how can you avoid changing it rather than how can you get away with changing it.  The creators seem to be leaning very heavily towards the latter.  

 

As an example, basically all of the epic dramatic moments from the LOTR movies are either taken entirely from the books or are at least entirely predictable to book readers.  That doesn't it make it not awesome to see Gandalf staring down a balrog and yelling "You cannot pass."  Or to see Sam pick up Frodo and carry him up Mount Doom.  Or for the Rohirrim to ride to ruin and the red dawn.  Or for the horn of helm hammerhand to sound in the deep one last time as Theoden rides out from the Hornburg. Or Boromir's last stand.  Or Aragorn confronting the army of the dead and commanding it to follow him.  You see, mostly book fans just want to see these awesome moments brought to life.  We don't need them jumbled around to fool us.  

I think your reading far to much into this, yes they could have created a new character just to be killed but they have someone there, in the books, who connects with the readers with very little screen time, he is someone that is fully fleshed out and has a way of talking, and, he is someone who, if put in that same situation in the book RJ would probably have had die the same way because no way is Uno going to kneel. 

They needed to make the character likeable for the non book audience so the death was shocking, they wanted to give the book reading audience a little bit of an easter egg, so they took a character that people take to quickly, they Saving Private Ryan him, and then they kill him off. This is part of the ABC of script writing, instead of a random red shirt they decided to use someone that would elict a real emotional response from the audience, I liked it. 

On 8/31/2023 at 1:50 PM, nsmallw said:

Mat and Nyneave had the least of the main cast. I can see it more in Nyneave's case since she was absent in an entire episode but I'm always surprised that Mat has the least. That means he needs much larger time in season two. 

Mat has very little book time in books 1 or 2, he is basically in withdrawl most of the time, he really kicks in more in book 3 so we should see him more so in season 3 maybe end of season 2 

So Verin has made her appearance in the TV show and it has got me thinking about her arc in the book, and I feel that RJ wasted a great moment there by being too secretive. 

In the TV show Verin has a sister, and my assumption is that we as the audience are going to see that Verin is clearly black Ajah far earlier, Possibly involving her killing her own sister. TO my mind, in order to get the influence and information she did amongst the darkfriends Verin had to do some very very very nasty things to innocent people to prove herself. We know that Aes Sedai do not automatically sit at the head of the darkfriend council, and we also know that the Forsaken (who verin has interacted with directly) don't just talk to anyone. 

But in the books the verin arc is much softer, we see hints of her using compulsion to make the tower Aes Sedai pledge to Rand far quicker, shortening there lives in the process but we dont see her do anything that fo rme would mark her out as a clear dark friend of high standing that she would have to be to have the names of every black ajah member and other darkfriends in society. 

And then we come to the big reveal, in some ways it is brilliantly done, but, told as it is in the backdrop of the reader having tension about Egwenes future and the confirmation and for some reveal that she is of the black, followed very quickly by her explaining the truth, it is all thrust upon the reader really quickly. Nothing is allowed to breathe or develop slowly. 

So should RJ have made her more obviously black, and given far clearer hints that she had the ability to do evil things to make the final reveal mean even more, and, should BS have seperated out her moment from the reader worrying if Egwene was about to be punished. The fact we get a POV from verin means we could have seen her doing more directly and it would not have broken the way RJ told the story. 

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I've known about the comparison to a Texas drawl for a long time, so I expected the Texan/southern accent. In my head the rest of the Westlands talks similarly to me (Northeast USA) but I've nothing against it being British accents. I like the contrast.

 

They should give some major Seanchan royalty more refined Savannah Georgia belle accents lol

I do find it interesting that even in the books many assumed the slave owning seanchan where the southern states. I never made that connection, but like I say coming from the UK the invading forces probably should have been french in my head :). 

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

Reality check folks. 

 

Your dream of a direct translation of the books to screen was never going to happen!

 

It would take a dozen seasons at least to do correctly and there isn't a tv company anywhere that is going to fund that.

 

So put on your "big boy pants", grow up and stop whining.

 

Just enjoy the books for what they mean to you and let the rest of us enjoy the tv show for what it means to us. 

 

Most of us have accepted that but are enjoying discussing and predicting where the changes might occur and what they might mean, I don't think the story has deviated that much from the books, yes little details are different but the main themes and arcs are all there currently. 

I think it is possible to critically discuss the changes and what they might mean for the future while still enjoying the show for what it is, I think it is also valid to call out where things grate a little the fact is that season 2 is an improvement and having gone back and rewatched season 1 on the back of seeing 2 it is very grating how poor the production levels are, how bad the trollocs and other effects look and how clunky alot of the dialogue is, season 2 shows if you solve those fundamentals of just making a good tv show then the changes to the story are far less impactful. 

So to get us started it seems the main questions have been about. 

1) Moraine, does she go through the door and get written off for a couple of seasons to be saved in season 7 and return to Rand in season 8, or, does that whole storyline change. 

2) the Dagger and the nature of Fains evil and what changing that does to the events involving cleansing the taint and shadar logath. 

3) Verin is she a darkfriend and will she be hunting the from the inside, or is she not a darkfriend in the show. For that matter, who is a darkfriend that was in the books and who might not be? 

53 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

Feel free to make a topic about that!

 

Topic made 

On the back of the season 2 chats it is clear we are starting to talk about the future of characters in relation to what we know from the books, both in relation to season 2 but also beyond. So as not to risk spoiling the series for non book lovers lets do all the spoiler filled chat here 

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I'm wondering if we have should have a separate, full book spoilers thread for speculating on where the plot and character arcs are going, and how the show may handle things.

I have been wondering that myself, I am trying to be vague and talk around things, or use spiler tags but I am aware I have let things slip just in talking about where storylines might go 

23 minutes ago, Samt said:

And maybe the whole story is a dream that Marin al’Vere has after drinking too much from the barrels Tam brought up.  It’s all well and good to speculate and we know that the arches are not fully understood. But a lot of the time we just have to accept the face value explanation when it works and makes sense and is supported by multiple parts of the story.  
 

The Aes Sedai don’t fully understand the arches and there are almost certainly other ways to use and control them. That doesn’t mean that the straightforward, consistent explanation that we get for what is known is completely incorrect.

Not at all but I have long liked to think that almost all the fantastical ter'angeral that are found that pre date the war with the shadow are just items of whimsey created because people where lazy. You see the decadance of the forsaken and I don't think that is far from what the Age of Legends was like, no war, no poverty, Aes Sedai ruling over those that can't channel like lords over there servants. Coming up with more and more elaborate power created items to make every day life easier and easier. No one to stop and ask if what they are doing is right until hubris destroys them. 

It parallels in a lot of ways with the fall of the Eldar in the 40K universe, there an entire species (space elves) fell into corruption because there long lives and the lack of any real problems in society led them to become more and more decadent, seeking out ways to entertain. Eventually this led to the creation of pleasure cults and then the creation, in a massive burst of psychic energy, of a chaos god who went hunting for eldar souls to gobble up.
 

56 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

He's not essential to the overall arc. I already agree with you there. But he did have a purpose. RJ said that the idea he was playing with in the WoT was "What would happen if you took regular small-town folk, and had someone show up and tell them, 'you're the savior of the world'. The importance of a character, like Uno (it didn't have to be Uno) is that the naive EF5 characters from a small-town laugh him off, but actually, as they experience more of the dirt and grime of the 'real world', they realize that someone like Uno - has a good reason for swearing all the time and being cynical & they become more like him. RJ was a Vietnam War vet, was he not? I think he knew some Uno's and they made an impression on him.

I never really considered him like that, it is an interesting take I always saw him as ancilliary and other characters are the ones that teach the lessons, but I suppose if you see him as a constant then you can gauge how the other characters change against him, I think I always saw other characters closer to the main ones a that role, So egwene becomes more like Siuan, Mat more like the commanders of the red hand, Elayne Brigette, Nynaeve strangely becomes more moraine like in some ways. It is an interesting different take on the character. 

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

Moiraine is also still visiting Adeleas and Vandene Verin like she does near the beginning of TGH, doing her research and studying.

 

We're going to the end of TGH, with probably some TDR type development for characters (Rand on an almost solo journey).

 

It's not translated 1:1 to screen, very much not so, but the general thrust of the arcs are still present.

 

That said, I'm curious as to when the Stone of Tear and Callandor fit into the show arc. They could surprise me, but I'm having trouble seeing it fit into this season, and I'm unsure of exactly what content they'll cover in the next season, unless they squeeze in Tear quite early... I imagine much of S3 being Book 4.

 

If much of 3 will be cut, and the BA hunt from books 3 and 4 are merged together, they could probably fast track the Stone of Tear and Rhuidean climaxes in Rand's arc in a single season, if they still want to keep Callandor at all this early in the series. Then S4 could open up to more politics and build to DW. Oy, my brain hurts. It could be done...

I don't think we will get tear this season, when Rafe said season 2 would cover books 2 and 3 I thought of it as a linear adaptation but I think he means he is lifting things that happen in book 3 and moving them toseason 2, which makes sense. Boks 2 and 3 are predicated on the same synopsis. Half the party travelling across Randland for something, while the other half get tricked/trapped and end up at the same end location. So I think we get more of the Aiel stuff from book 3 here in season 2, we get Rand using his powers more and being scared of himself in season 2 which tracks with book 3 and is possible now that he isnt running across randland hunting the horn. 

I think we get more of the book 3 Moraine storyline with some bits lifted from her journey across randland and I think we set Tear up in a different way so by the end of season 2 Rand has accepted he is the Dragon and then he heads to Tear early in season 3 to prove it by claiming the sword. We can then get the fall of tear and Rand heading to the Aiel ready for season 4. 

28 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Btw, I was really impressed with the casting for Lady Anvaere Damodred. I immediately thought she looked familiar from something and it finally clicked that she played Servilia on HBO's Rome-series, and she was terrific in it. Is she the surprise visiting star that I read would be in Season 2? I assume we'll see more of her when Moiraine reaches Cairhien. 

 

Edit: I just realized she could have been great as one of the Wise Ones too. 

She was great in a discovery of Witches where she played a matriarchal vampire mother. 

1 minute ago, DreadLord31 said:

I don’t disagree with you that Uno is non-essential. I just don’t think they gave thought to what his purpose is … in the books … before they killed him. I think their reason was “we need people to fear the Seanchan” so “let’s kill Uno!”

so my question is for you, what do you see his purpose is in the books? I am intrigued how others see him, I have always seen him as a bit of light comic relief, and someone to bounce off of a very serious Nynaeve. He appears a couple of times to get the girls out of trouble and then used as a recurring character when a guard is needed so the reader has a touchpoint in those scenes, but also because he was a fan (and I guess an author) fav so was given a bit of extra screen time. But there is no "Arc" that he drives forward or that could happen without him. The books could exist without him, they would lose those few paragraphs of interesting world building and fun interactions but if you replaced him with a series of different soldiers in each interaction the story would not change. 

Thats how I see him. 

 

34 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I do like the show. I was responding to a comment that the writers of the show understand the books “far better” than the hard core fans. After a post that they killed Uno not really understanding his purpose. Do you think they gave thought to the importance of Uno? I think they explicitly stated they killed him to make us afraid of the Seanchan. 
 

All of my examples were not “this doesn’t work or make sense for the show” examples — they are examples of the how the show writers DO NOT always understand the importance of things in the books. And the Shadar Logoth dagger being more deadly than normal weapons is probably the best example — but the rest were not “the show doesn’t have reasons for doing what they’re doing” examples — or “this isn’t a good show”. S2 has been good Tv. I was simply pointing out why I have low confidence that the writers/showrunner can recognize essential jenga pieces of the WoT & won’t at some point pull out the wrong block. 
 

 

Sorry I got lot in the threads, that makes more sense I disagree with you, but thats ok as well, in that I think the writers do understand the lore and what can and can't be changed, I posted about the uno death earlier so won't repeat it here other to say he is an ancilliary character who does not drive the main story (from the 2 rivers to the last battle) directly, yes they could have put any other made up character in that role but I like we got a glimpse of Uno and he went out in a way consistent with his character in the books. he finds himself in a different situation to the books, but the way he reacts is true to his character and for me that is the key thing. 

For me the things you list are not key things that have to be copied over as is from the books, and the changes made in some ways tell the overall story better then RJ did. I love the WOT but I also think RJ made alot of mistakes in how he structured and wrote them, and I really feel that if he had written book 4 first then books 1-3 would be very very different. Both in terms of story and in some ways tone.  

On 9/4/2023 at 9:03 PM, WoTwasThat said:

While I appreciate the folks trying to stay positive about this - maybe some of you even mean it - at some point we gotta call this for what it is.

 

This is worse than Season 1. Most of these plot points aren’t even recognizable from the TGH or TDR. The writers are just making it all up.
 

We’re supposed to just be thrilled that there is a TV show called “The Wheel of Time” with the same character names but a totally different story?! Oh, but it’s ok because heh - this is a “new turning of the wheel”?

 

Who are the people who think this is a good adaptation of the books?

 

Who are the people who are happy to get this “new turning” instead of the story from the books?

 

I think my favorite additions so far are Perrin’s visions and Nyn’s super badass warder skillz. Rand’s working the third shift at Cairhien General Hospital LOL. 

 

And Moraine. Gah. Does anyone even think Mo will be making her exit in this story? Nah. They’re riding the Rosamund Pike train to the end.

 

I could go on and on but you all know what I mean. It’s just that some of you won’t admit it. 

I think this is a good adaptation, in fact I think the storytelling method for season 2 so far is better then the great hunt, but then I have always thought that books 1,2 and part of book 3 are a fairly generic not special fantasy story that isn't paticularily different to hundreds of other stories. The real RJ story kicks in in book 4. 

But people focus on these tiny little things, like Nyn creeping up on Lan (Taken from the books), Perrin "Visions", taken from the book (Rand has the vision), but also probably the best way to show Perrin is different, he is seeing the world of dreams in his visions. 

Rand working to get to the one man in the world he knows can teach him to channel, makes far more sense then Rand in the books stumbling by chance on a forsaken who can teach him thanks to Lanfer. 

I think yes Morraine will make the exit, her story has to be constructed entirely from 2 sentences in TGH where she explains to Rand where she has been while all of that book was going on. They have to find a good reason to have her stay out of the 5 main characters lives for that period and have her own moment of self doubt, which she has in the books you just don't see it as clearly. This is WOT in more then just name, every character arc is on the exact same trajectory as it is in the books and the writers are doing something more imaginative then RJ did of repeating the same story trope across 3 books "Party run away from a thing or go chasing after a thing, they split up, some or all of them get led into a trap, they escape said trap through luck more then judgement, then they go chasing another thing, get drawn into a trap, over and over until Rand is holding the sword." There is a reason why we all get frustrated when by the end of book 3 we see the same characters getting caught out in a trap in the same way for a 3rd time. That would make awful boring TV. 

All the plot points are there and are lifted direct from the book, yes they have been "adapted", for TV, because they need to be for reasons that have been explained over and over and over again here, and yes you can disagree with some of the creative choices made, but saying this is not the WOT i any way I am sorry it makes it look like people who say that don't know the books at all properly, or are just trying to bait, because it clearly is. 

On 9/4/2023 at 9:25 PM, WoTwasThat said:

No, it isn’t. Not once you take a meat cleaver to the series beyond Book 6, which is what should be done. But Books 1-6 were damned near magnificent and this is a sick joke by comparison.

 

The GOT Seasons 1-4 adaptions of the first four books were pretty darned good, and a masterpiece by comparison.

Books 1, 2 and part of 3 are generic fantasy tropes that are repetitive and rehash the same story several times and would make for an awful TV show if filmed as written, for me the real story, the bit I keep going back to that makes the series stand out is Battle for Tear onwards, I don't see a "boring middle section" I love all the stuff that goes on with the kidnap, the politics for Andor, Matt and even the carnival. 

On 9/4/2023 at 9:18 PM, WoTwasThat said:

This excuse rings a bit hollow considering the Rafester keeps squandering all his precious runtime just, you know, making everything up.

 

Each one of these seasons is the equivalent of 3-4 feature length movies. And they can’t faithfully adapt 1-2 books a season in that run? Think about that. (And no, nobody is seriously suggesting a faithful adaption of books 7-10 which would be, frankly, horrific.)

Ok I did this long ago so will paraphrase here. 

Lord of the rings is a far smaller word count and requires 3 feature length movies, which at the time where long for cinema, and still had lots cut out and made massive changes to the lore and the story. 

Harry potter the movies cut out and change some significant details. 

WOT, is massive, I mean immense, but, ad this is really key, the most important stuff for the screen gets hardly any word count in the book. things that RJ explains in a few sentences or a short paragraph will need to be an entire episode all to themselves. You cannot make a page by page adaptation of one book across 8 episodes, let alone multiple. lets take something we know is coming, the battle for emonds field.

On 9/4/2023 at 8:39 PM, Oggie221 said:

This is how I look at it, this is a different turning of the wheel.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the good guys lose this round.

 

That's the beauty of the Wheel of Time.  If season 2 ended with the Dark One winning and then things resetting and going another round, I would be ok with that.  I know a lot of people wouldn't.  But the wheel has turned out this story an infinite number of times, most of them failures.  Only 2 solutions are final.  One the Dark One destroying the wheel, and one of the Dark One being permanently destroyed.  So I am going to shut up and enjoy this series for what it is, a separate turning of the wheel.

For me this is not what a different turning of the wheel means in WOT, the journey from LTT to Rand is not a new turning, it is the same turning, LTT starts the battle with the dark one, Rand ends it, that turning of the wheel however started 10,000 years before LTT, and will end maybe 20,000 years after Rand and then the next turning will happen and everything will be different. Humanity might all live under the sea, or in airships, they may never discover the one power, or there might be a zombie apocolypse or any other thing you can imagine. There won't necessarily be a "Dragon" there wont be a LTT, the darkone will be released somehow but it will be different, or the same or maybe the dark one won't be released at all in that turning. We can't envision what the next turning looks like but it will not be a copy paste of the books, the saviour of humankind might be a women, a talking dog or a group of children. The "breaking" might be nuclear apocalypse, or an asteroid mining gone wrong meaning it hits the earth, or maybe the Dinosaurs come back in that turning. 

13 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think there is kind of an in-story canon reason for this. For hundreds of years (at least since the trolloc wars), the Fades were the most fearful of the dark ones armies, outside the actual blight.  There were no Dreadlords, so Fades were the most dangerous, and the thing to be feared the most. But in our story, the Forsaken are no longer fairy tales, and darkfriends are no longer pathetic imbeciles.  And compared to what the forsaken can do without warning, Fades are nothing but speed and steel and shadowstepping. When hurricanes and lightning strikes out of the blue exist and want to kill you, what is to fear from something that can be fought?

I think it is also ok sometimes to accept that one of the issues with a long form story narrative is that you need to ramp up the threat to your heroes as there power increases. I think I was a bit to flippant about the fades thinking about it, it does usually take specific tactics or many men to kill one, but after centuries of fighting them the warriors of Randland have learnt how to kill a a fade. Also Fades don't fight as a unit, even when there are multiple they fight individually. And, if you know the fade is coming then you can prepare and take them out at range. I think they are still very dangerous if one crept up on you alone, at home, at night but we don't really see much of that beyond book 2. 

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

I actually agree with you both; I immediately noticed in S1 “oh, dang…they really screwed up having Fain stab people with the dagger and then just magically be fine” … Shadar Logoth and the Dagger being a different kind of evil from the Dark One ARE ESSENTIAL to the story. 
 

However, @Scarloc99, I think you have more confidence than I do that our Amazon writers/producers and our shower-runner can recognize essential elements of the story and not change them. 
 

Though… I have to say that I’ve been 150% more impressed with S2 writing than season one. 
 

“Who is the Dragon?” For an entire season, is not a compelling question for any book fan & took away from non-book readers caring about half our main characters. 
 

“Who can you really trust?”

and “Why do people choose evil?” 
Those ARE very compelling questions. Good job, S2 writers. 
Hopefully Amazon decides to PAY those writers. 
 

 

Oh I agree if they drop the ball on that then I have no idea how they write there way around it, I understand they could balls it up, the point i was trying to make are that there are key storyline moments in the series that need to be touched on, so the writers saying to book readers "don't have any expectations of anyone being who they are in the books" feels more like an attempt to say "don't tell your friends this persons back story, because you might be wrong WAFO". Then a genuine attempt to actively put existing skins on brand new characters. 

I genuinely think the dagger moment was a mistake that rafe and the writers are aware of because of the questions it raised on the internet, we will have to wait to see the next time someone is stabbed with the knife. Maybe they witness it and ask the question to Loial "why didn't it do this to you", or maybe they go the route that Fain can turn the poison on and off at will? Or maybe he was still merging with the blade, to be honest if the next time the blade stabs someone we get the expected effect I am happy handwaving on past this 

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

You gotta back that up with evidence man… 

 

And explain how at the end of S1 they had Fain stab Loial and a number of the Shinarans with the Shadar Logoth dagger and then in S2, 6 Mo later, walah! They’re fine? 
 

Explain how Egwene tear healed a dead or burnt out Nynaeve. 
 

Explain how the Dragon could be “male or female”? When the Dragon Reborn is the reincarnation of LTT… 

 

Explain how their version of the DF social comes even close to accomplishing what it does for the GH. 
 

Explain how the best swordsman in the world can’t handle a Fade. 
 

Explain how Moiraine is gonna “pass the bond to Alanna” whilst shielded or stilled … is there still a bond, what’s up with that? 
 

Dude you gotta have evidence. 
Respectfully… 

 

And, perhaps, our end product will prove my doubts wrong and your confidence right… I sure hope so. 

Ok you are going over old ground here. 

The "Dragon" is male, it is Rand, souls that can be reincarnated into either gender does nothing to change the fundamentals of the story, your fav characters will not be gender swapped at all, but it allowed, for non book readers, a bit of intrigue in season 1, and, at least for the people I know, it worked. I was being asked constantly who the dragon was, and Nyn and Egwene where considered just as much as Rand, thats a fun bit of storytelling. But, and I have said this multiple times, the Dragon in the next turning might be Female, the Dragon in the next turning might be a Ogier, or a group of individuals, we have no idea what the next turning looks like because it is a millenia away and happens long after any knowledge of this world is long forgotten. The Dragon are 2 characters out of many many many millions of battles fought with the darklord, but they have never been the same fight on the same land using the same tools. LTT was the "Dragon this time". 

Rafe stated that the final scene of episode 8 didn't land well, he said the whole idea was that Egwene was using herbs to kepp Nynaeve alive, which, for those who know the books, will understand that is a really clever bit of Foreshadowing for the end of season 8. Now, because of various reasons, including as he said covid protocols the scene didn't come across how he intended it to and so it caused confusion amongst book fans. 

The Dagger, again, my guess is that if Matt had been available for filming, he would have been stabbed and, because he is now "immune" as per the books we see it does not affect him the way it does other people, it can then be a point of intrigue through the rest of the series, how the dagger has such a different effect on others when Matt it was just a dagger. That actually would have been a far better way of telling that bit of story then RJ and BS who sprung the "immunity" thing on us in a line at the end of the last battle. Much like the healing above I think in the panic of last minute re writes they switched things around and Loial got stabbed for a dramatic moment in the show, but they then realised that it opened up a can of worms. Rather then explain away, it has been 5 months and Loial is ok, really it is such an insignificant thing that people are making so so much bigger then it is. Accept that sometimes a writer tries something, it doesn't land so they move on and pretend it never happened rather then create artificial dialogue or waste screen time "fixing the lore". 

DF Social, now you are just trying to find things, what exactly does the DF soicial achieve in the books, I mean really, from a storytelling point of view what does it tell you. It lets you as the reader know that Darkfriends are highly organised, and they meet up, and they have a leadership structure. In the books Eye of the World tellls you nothing about the darkfriend organisation, it tells you nothing about there actual danger to the world, book one is a high fantasy fairly generic get from A to B to do a thing story that does a little bit of lore building but mainly just says "this is the world". When he got approval for Book 2 and beyond RJ knew he needed to show that deeper machinations are going on, and the main bad guys of the series are organised, make plans and are super sneaky. We don't need that in the TV show because that point has been made in season 1, so no this is not the "dark friend social" as it is in the books, because that scene would be really dull and confusing in the show, a person, we don't yet know, goes through a portal to a place and sees a load of people stood there unable to move as they are whispered to. This "social scene" achieved so many more things, it showed Ishy as a character, his thoughts, his emotions, it showed how Darkfriends can be manipulated and created as children, it showed that darkfriends are mothers, daughters, sisters, fathers, it showed that Trollocs are not just mindless beasts but can follow orders and instructions, and it showed that the shadow does not just want the dragon reborn dead. it achieved alot in terms of story. 

Lan at this point in the books is not defined as the best swordsman in the land, and in fact in the books at this point he can't fight off multiple fades. He doesn't do that until a memory of light after months of intense "getting ready for the last battle" training and sparring with Rand and others, and fighting multiple fades over the course of many books. He doesn't do that until he accepts his destiny and gives up the ghosts of the past. Also, in the TV show this Lan has no bond and has no super syan powers, and he still takes on and beats off 2 fades. Lets give the guy some props here. 

Morraine says that Alanna will forcibly bond Lan she doesn't have to mean she will "pass it over" in the way we understand it at all. 

All your issues here have solid understandable, both in world and just in terms of good storytelling, answers. You don't like the show, thats fine, but many many many others do so maybe you need to accept that you are entitled to your opinion but all you have stated is just that, opinon not facts. 

3 hours ago, Samt said:

In regards to Uno's death, I have been thinking about what his contribution to the larger story in the books is and whether or not he really adds anything.  It's true that he doesn't really have an arc and doesn't really change.  But what does change is the way that the main characters see him.  Initially, the see him as crass and vulgar, uncompassionate, and surly (perhaps even comically so).  But as time passes and the POV characters grow and understand the world better, they come to understand that he is also honorable, courageous, competent, confident, and bound to fulfill his duty.  Uno is a bit of an archetype of the mistreated grunt who gets laughed at until he saves your life and you realize that he knows a lot more than the people who initially discounted him as an old codger.  

 

But in the TV series, Uno gets one scene where he's the butt of a joke and then his next scene he decides to practically commit suicide and gets impaled.  If the creators didn't want to have the character, don't have the character.  Uno is by no means a required character.  But to add him only to kill him shows that they don't really understand why the character is in the books in the first place.  

Uno in the book is purely a tool RJ uses to help get people from A to B, there is no real arc other then he becomes closer to the girls, who always respect him they just treat him like they do all men, as something to get in the way and make their lives difficult. His role all the way through is to facilitate, or be ready to facilitate there escape from a potentially dangerous situation, the poor man is always having to "arrange horses" for the drop of the hat, I imagine his house permanently has 5-8 horses tethered to it, "oh these, no idea why they are there, just relaxing, take them, no don't do that, they are resting, never know when someone might suddenly need a horse to make an, I mean get somewhere quickly." 

The audience needs to see that the Seanchan are very very serious, they need to see in one scene that they give no second chances. So, the writers introduce a character briefly, they get the audience to like them, connect with them in some way and then in a badass moment have him killed for a shock moment. Hollywood has been doing it for decades, it's a running joke in so many comedy skits, "don't tell me your life story or you will die" and saving private ryan for example takes the trope to almost comedic levels as one by one each character exposites there back story only to die in the very next scene. 

I think book readers sometimes try and read to deeply into scenes that have been created more to follow the ABC's of successful script writing for a dramatic moment rather then to do something deep and meaningful. Yes Rafe could have told the writers to "create a new character to die" but then that replaces Uno, and Uno's very nature means that in that scene in that moment that is exactly how he would have reacted. The only reason Ingtar gets the rest to kneel rather then fight to avenge is because. 

 

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

is there any sign in the show that Nynaeve channelled to bring the arch back? could it not just be that it reappeared at that moment - though I hope we get an explanation as to why she got a second "chance that comes but once" 

 

Re Nynaeve's channelling, she is not supposed to have access to the Power inside the Arches, acc to Sheriam. is it just that she is so powerful that she can, or are we starting to see that Nynaeve has a different type of access to the Power. Remembering that her Power deflected Machin Shin, which is also meant to be impossible - not just in terms of level of Power but that the Power doesn't interact with it in that way. 

In the books I am pretty sure the instruction is not to channel because it is so dangerous and has massive side effects rather then you can't channel, Egwene channels left right and centre during her test. 

I doubt we will get an explanation, and I am fine with that, teh way the WOT is told is that the reader only has the information that the characters on the page have, there are no 4th wall explanations or descriptions to the reader to give them extra information. The Aes Sedai have no idea what the arches really do or how they work, or even what they where for, so there could be many many secrets hidden within them and Nynaeve managed to trigger the safe mode option, or did the equivalent of turning it on and off again. 

7 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Is he though?

 

Here's a thought. Aside from knowing Perrin in the dreams... Perhaps he caught Perrin in the crowd... because Perrin was one of the few people in the crowd that could... actually see him?

Suroth talked to him so he is there in the flesh, it matches up with the books that she would know. It also matches up with the books in that the forsaken try various schemes to capture or kill those Rand is close to in order to push him over the edge and ensure the moment on the mountain goes the other way, thereby letting the shadow win. 
 

It also matches up that of all of the 5 Perrin is the only one not to be trapped, or walk into a trap in fact he is the most untrappable of the 5 so him “escaping” tracks as well :). 

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Moiraine has been intentionally made the main protagonist of the TV show; they're not going to remove her from the board, even if they do get her story to where it is in the 'middle' books.

No they are writing moraine out the same way that I will hang my hat on, it makes sense for several reasons. 
 

The scene where moraine disappears is a crux character growth moment for Rand, losing her drives his character forward in a way no other event could. 
 

Moraine disappearing triggers a massive shift in lans character in a way that only her “death” could. 
 

It leads to a book moment late on involving Matt and other characters that I doubt Rafe and others can avoid showing on tv because it will be so cinematic and make for a very very fun episode.