23 minutes ago, Samt said:

I don't know too much about the cost of various things that go into making a show, but it does seem like they spent an incredible amount of money and still ended up with a lot of parts that felt low budget and a bunch of other scenes from the book that were probably cut for budget reasons.  Where did $100 million go?  

Reportedly a lot of money was invested in sets that will be used right through the series, so Tar Valon, Emonds Field, and costumes, outfits and effects that will be able to be reused over and over in the future. I have a friend who works in TV and has worked on amongst other things Dr Who and GOT and he said that a new fantasy or Sci Fi tv show Incurs more costs in season 1 because the team are learning the best ways to do things and building large reusable sets that will then save them cost in the future. He said that the CGI side then also takes more investment as the team figure out how they want things like magic to look on screen from first principles. In future they can then take all that work and build on it iteratively season to season for far less cost. 
 

Also let’s not underestimate the financial burden of Covid. The team may have held back a large part of the budget to give us an impressive looking final 2 episodes and for added CGI only to have that blown out the water and the budget be swallowed up by Covid protocols and any hopes of a large scale battle lost when combatants had to stay 2 feet apart. 

5 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

I like Egwene alot.  she is playing a very solid version of the book character.  Someone who is driven by ambition, already showing strong loyalty to the white tower, and we can see her love for Rand but also the fracture in their relationship.  Season 2 should really give Egwene alot more to work with, and I suspect many will agree with me by the end of it.

 

I like Thom too, but I just couldn't do his singing.  I was expecting a royal court bard here, not a common tavern singer

I mean Thom is described in the books as fitting in to where ever he is, so singing in a villiage tavern you will not get any of that royal bard, also consider in the books Matt and Rand refuse to believe he ever was in court for a long long time because of how he holds himself and behaves day to day. 

3 hours ago, Guire said:

I completely understand the decision as a business decision.  Its not the size that is totally the issue.  Wolves come in different sizes and shapes worldwide.  Wolves and coyotes just dont act like dogs.  The trained czech dogs used act like trained dogs even with their wolfish appearance.  Wolves have a way of moving that is cautious and menacing at the same time.  Their heads stay low and they are alwayd low key on alert.  Its very similar to how soldiers get a thousand yard stare. Its the acceptance and ease of violence as your best tool.  Its why I wanted Elyas in season 1.  He was the counter to the way of the leaf.  I am not sure if show creaatives understand this importance.  Its why I am afraid we are going to get goofy soldiers, labradoodle warders, and loving wolf dogs.  Its a small change but I think reflective of the priorities of show's creatives.  

The only solution then is CGI wolves. Which cost huge amounts of money and even then can just look bad. Also by committing to 2-3 CGI wolf for early scenes you are making a world of financial hurt for yourself when it comes to scenes involving dozens or more wolves. This for me is a decision I am happy with. 

4 hours ago, Guire said:

Becoming powerful doesnt require one to be nuanced or complex.  It requires one to be narcistic, vain, selfish, overconfident, and have enough talent to not flop from sheer incompetence.  Elon Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Marjorie Taylor Green, Jeff Gaetz, Trump, Bolsanaro,  and on and on.  You dont think some of the Kardassians or Kanye West would miss a chance at the dark friends social.

But each of the forsaken had power of their own already, now I can understand a forsaken turning to avoid being punished, but turning out of jealousy or spite, there is a nuance there a story that I think is probably more interesting then the story told in the wheel of time. 
 

I have been reading the immense sci fi space opera the Horus Heresay, the quality of the writing is a bit hit and miss depending on the author but the best stories within it are not about the hero’s being heroic, it is the tiny steps that hero’s take to become the most evil beings in the galaxy. The way that each one is corrupted and turned away from his fathers vision and is set on that path to become the cartoon villain they started out as back in the 80’s when they where first thought up. 
 

I am really interested to know when RJ wrote his forsaken backstories and how much did they change over the years. It has always felt to me that much of the lore was written as he was writing that part in the book so I really wonder if RJ even knew Lanfers real goal before he died, or was he hoping to figure it out in the final books? 

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, it can be argued that it's a very, very, very stupid plan.

really, what are the chances of it actually succeeding? it's like lanfear put all her hopes on a lottery ticket

I will argue that RJ doesn’t write darkfriend villains that make much sense, especially compared to how villains are written in the modern era. The forsaken are evil because they are evil and it isn’t really explained what they are doing or the motivation other than they want to be Nae’blis. Verrin kind of explains a reason for this. You get an idea of Moridins aims at the very end. 
 

Now RJ can write compelling bad guys, Elaida, The white cloaks and to some extent even Fain is written like a monster from a horror story but the Forsaken really come across a little cartoonish, which is part of what they are, selfish individuals who all want to be number one, but, other then moridin, we never understand what they plan to do once in that position other then lord it over the others. 
 

Lanfer I think, thinks she is in love with LTT and therefore Rand. She is convinced that LTT is in love with her, when Rand lets her see all of himself it finally breaks her and shows her that no, she will never have LTT again, that for her is winning having her love back on her arm to show off and parade around like property. 

8 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Oh. And the “new thing” we got today, was a big ole nothing. It’s Rand, Moiraine, and Lan standing holding torches (but I think it’s a background and not even from a Lan actual scene)! Laaame. Was hoping for a second trailer…it’s 1 week away! 

As far as I am concerned to much has been given away already. I don’t want any spoilers or any hints given away, especially when it leads to people making wild suppositions about everything that is going to be wrong with the next season lol. But generally I try and avoid trailers, ever since the cabin in the woods which was a great movie spoilt by the massive plot twist being front and centre to the trailer lol. 

5 minutes ago, Cipher said:

I really like Logain from the books, but he is never a raving basket case and we have him like that in S1.  They could make Logain into Taim and Rand be the man to confront him in S7-S8. (If we make it that far).

Again how do we know? By the time we meet Logain properly it has been months since his stilling and the wasting has already set in. 

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Do you think this new actor (Donal Finn) is going to give us a good Matt? Was my favorite character in the later books ... I like Donal's Irish accent. Luck'o'the'Irish! Seems fitting for Matt. I definitely am having a hard time with how the writers are writing him, though ... I never felt like book Matt was wrestling with being a piece of trash on the inside or having a garbage family (cause neither was the case in the books). 

I mean we found out very little about mat in books 1 and 2 because of the dagger. and the real driver in book 3 was a sense of looking out for the girls, which you can see in how he feels about his sister. Later on his motivation is not getting himself into a battle lol. 

13 minutes ago, Cipher said:

I actually sympathized with Steppin and felt sad when he died.  But I want that emotional connection with Perrin or Rand.

 

From S2 trailer it does indeed look like Logain is filling that Asmodean slot and can be Taim as well.  Yup it is not actually Logain from the books, just a character inspired by Logain with the same name.  That applies to a lot of the characters in Wheel of Amazon.

Logain can’t be Taim, how do you get that redemption arc with Logain at the very end after having been tortured. I think Taim will still be in it but the writers understand they need the audience to be invested in Logain for when he gets healed and then resists being turned before leading the faction against Taim in the black tower. Then right at the end the emotion of a mother telling Logain she will be sending her son to be tested at the black tower when he is of age. 

28 minutes ago, expat said:

The problem is that there is are a lot of people that believe that while he could have followed the books, he couldn't have made an interesting TV series while following the books closely for a myriad of reasons that have been discussed to death.  It comes down to the goal of the adaptation - put a faithful representation of the books on screen or make an interesting series, even if it deviates in details from the books.

 

Granted that there is a subset of viewers, like yourself, who believes that he didn't accomplish either goal, but when writing the adaptation, the showrunners must be crystal clear which goal is more important.  Since they want to make money, "faithfulness to the story" will almost always be sacrificed for better TV.

 

To beat the dead horse once more, here is a sample of reason that the TV series must deviate from the books:

1. show not tell.  The medium is different and scenes that play well in a book may not play well on screen. 

2. 160 pages an hour - if we get all 64 episodes, it will still be over 160 pages an episode meaning lots and lots of stuff must be cut.  When you cut things, you need to stich the resultant plot holes with new, non-faithful material for the series to make sense.

3. Filming issues - some things on paper are just not filmable (or at least no filmable within a reasonable budget) and if they are important plotpoints, you need to rewrite lots of things to get around the issue while saving the plot.

4. actor availability - once you cast major characters, you need to have something for them to do because you can't have them skipping large periods of time like they do in the books.  So new plot points to keep them employed.

5. Structure - The books grew up over a large period of time so the introduction of foundational aspects such as lore, characters, world building are haphazard in the books.  For the series, you can logically introduce the foundational pieces according to the needs of the story.  Since many of these pieces will be out of order to the books, this is all new material (e.g., Steppin).

6. Costs - Lots of things are being done to reduce costs of actors, sets, costuming, CGI etc. These likely impact what can and will be filmed.

7. POV - the books are written through some action scenes, but loads of POVs from dozens of characters, including much of their character arcs.  You can't film POV, all you can do is figure out what is important in the POV and write new scenes to highlight them to the viewer.  Just having the characters talk about what they are thinking (to be closer to the books) is heavy exposition and really bad television. 

 

Perfectly acceptable opinion not to like the overall show or individual adaptation decisions, but it seems very simplistic to simply say that it is easy to follow the books and that Rafe is in some way evil or egotistical or incompetent because the show varies more from the books than you expected or wanted.  IT IS NOT EASY TO CREATE AN ENTERTAINING, BUT "FAITHFUL" RERESENTATION OF WOT. Could Rafe or someone else done a better job of combining the two objectives, probably. But you can say this about almost everything - it could have been better.

I will just add as well that the key action sequences are generally given just a few paragraphs by RJ in the books, the battle for Emonds field should be a solid hour of TV akin to the battle of winter fell (only not as dark or as rubbish), yet in the book the battle itself is what, 2 pages, it is the build up that takes all the time. This means you lose more time for story and lore because those battle pages need far more time devoted to them. 

44 minutes ago, Cipher said:

At the top of the production.  I was responding to a remark about how may be new writers would improve the new season.  S2 is going to be just like S1 imo—-S2 will have changes I dislike as much as the changes as S1.

 

Biggest single misstep was making the EF5 less important to the story.  Focus moved to Moiraine might be a good call if you can give me a Ned Stark moment when she loses the power, but there was no drama in that event.  Her use of the OP would have to have been stepped over the course of the season may be for that to work.

 

Time given to Logain or Steppin is completely lame and a waste. Take that time and invest in Rand, Perrin, Egwene.  Make me care about them, but I didn’t.  BTW I didn’t really care about Mat until book 3 in Jordan’s WOT and he ended up as my favorite until he died at end of Knife of Dreams :p.

In eye of the world you actually learn very little about the main characters other than Rand. And no one other than Rand really goes on any kind of a journey. 
 

The Logain stuff was brilliant, it is great that we get more of him early on given he is so key to the main story later. 
 

Steppin, while I understand those who disliked it I loved it, and many non books readers really liked it, it was the one story line that actually gave you a peek inside the culture of one of the key organisations, and, as a friend of mine pointed out, just because it isn’t taken from the books does not mean that is not how the Aes Sedai conduct funeral rights, or it is how some warders might go if there aes sedai does not die in the heart of battle. It is also a really key mechanic of the world given that when Morraine “dies” the audience will now understand something bad might happen to Lan, and, at the last battle it is a really key high tension moment that is Moridins last gasp attempt. 
 

I understand why people didn’t like it but it was actually some of the better produced and written material in the show. 

14 minutes ago, Guire said:

Inside WoT specific videos I am seeing a lot less pure negative than mixed to purely positive videos.  Its more the low engagement in general.  Maybe a good season will make the engagement ratchet way up.  I doubt any channel that is mostly WoT is making any real money unless they are possibly subsidized by Amazon to keep some interest.  And yes the culture war channels definately create that pile on effect.  I try to take that into account when looking at the show.

I mean to be fair GOT was considered fairly niche when it first aired. I think it was season 2 when it really kicked off and people got into it going back and watching season 1 to catch up. For me the key thing is the production values, I think if it had been a better show in terms of dialogue, effects and acting then more people would have ignored more of the changes to the story. I think we are roughly in agreement bit maybe slightly different sides of the good, not good line. 

1 hour ago, Guire said:

There are no reliable metrics so its all suppostion.  Both of 2 other book readers I know irl who watched show thought it wasn't good. Both said very average.  Same from non book readers I encouraged to watch show. My feeling that show wasnt great comes from online presence.  I have seen very few non book reader youtube sites blowing up with praise for show and engagement by fans.  There are some but it is very far from widespread in Americas or Europe that I have seen.  Reddit seems to have engaged show thread but it appears heavily modded to keep a positive tone.  Across most platforms I have seen, its mostly book fans that are engaged and reception to show is very mixed. If there are places that aren't basically marketing arms for Amazon that are really enjoying show let me know what they are.  Seeing how fans are enjoying show has helped temper my early dissapointment quite a bit.

I am always just wary about that kind of supposition. Generally Negative YouTube videos get far more views, and therefore make more money then positive videos. I am not saying your wrong, like is say it is just hard to put a metric on it if Amazon don’t give us numbers for people who stick with season 2. 

2 hours ago, Samt said:

To be clear, I think what you mean is that the quality of a show is not directly correlated to the degree to which it is a faithful adaptation of the original source material.  And I would agree.  There are lots of good shows and movies that deviate widely from the source material that they are adapting.  That is a valid artistic choice.  

 

However, the claim that is being made in the original post in this thread is that most WoT book fans were hoping for a more faithful adaptation of the book series and that many believe that would have been a better show.  It's fair to disagree with that claim and present evidence or arguments as to why the changes that the showrunners chose to make were necessary to make a coherent show or just made the show better than it would have been if it had been more faithful.  It's even reasonable to make arguments that the changes are rather minor and that the show is a highly faithful adaptation.  

 

But what I feel you and some others have done is to pretend that there isn't a meaningful concept of faithfulness to the book material (while simultaneously actually implicitly acknowledging that this concept exists).  That is what I am objecting to.  

 

It's like if I say this purple shirt would look better if it was more of a blue shade.  You can argue that you think it actually looks good as is. Or that it needs more red. Or maybe that it is already really is as blue as it could be.  But if you simply say that color doesn't exist and that all shirts are the same color, I'm going to object to your dismissal of reality.  

This is the one point I disagree with, most WOT fans think this is a poor adaptation. No a minority are very vocal about disliking it, but even on this forum it is a tiny % that voice that opinion on the message boards but they tend to make their voice heard on every thread like this. I have yet to see any true independent metrics of the real WOT fanbase regarding how they feel about the show. Maybe a poll should be done at the next WOT convention, although that will only cover americans. 
 

Anecdotally amongst the friends I have who have read the books they feel the same as me, overall a good job was done some room for improvement but in no way is it a poor adaptation. The changes all made sense they just didn’t always stick the landing with execution. Which is a production issue not a story issue. A very good friend of mine who works in TV spent a good bit of time walking through why all the various changes make sense from a scripting and filming perspective, and the tweaks he might have made and the things down he would never have thought of but really liked (Steppin is a fav of both of us). As he said, that storyline is not in the book, but, we can’t say it isn’t in the lore because RJ has never described an aes sedai funeral so we can’t say it shouldn’t be there. 
 

You will always get the vocal minority speaking out against a thing and then thinking they are in the majority when we have no real evidence one way or the other. Don’t get me wrong you might be right but, I have yet to see any proof of that given the vast number of people on this website who don’t voice that opinion. 

13 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

The buck stops with Rafe.  If he couldn't manage the Writers Room for a successful collaborative effort, that is on him.  Hopefully he grew as a manager and S2 benefits greatly!

 

As stand-alone scenes, I thought Nynaeve's test in the tower was great.  Rand and Selene not so much.  But hard to judge from snippets.

The issue with Rand and Selene is that from the looks of it she won’t be playing different men off against each other to make Rand jealous. So a lot of that look but don’t touch element is gone. Also remember in the books she didn’t want Rand, she wanted LTT and so flirted but didn’t make her move because she saw it was Rand still in control early on. Her goal was to push Rand to make LTT come to the fore. 

2 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

Logain SAW Ninive holding the power when she healed all the people he hurt.

Or is that just something I'm assuming I about the series?

I haven't ONCE said anything incorrectly. And, I'm not just slammed the show or overblowing the facts.

 

You like the series and that's fine I don't like it and, that's fine too.

 

This subject is why not follow the books. People are just arguing for or against it. The fact is that Rafe could have easily followed the books and, do it in budget. 

No Logain saw light, when Nyn did the healing bomb she also gave off an intense light which everyone, even non channelers could see. 
 

Books 1-3 would make for a rubbish tv show if they were adapted as is, lots of traveling from A to B to chase a person, thing or escape something. I am not saying he has done a perfect job but I understand the need for every change he made and think the tv show is better for it then it would have been had it been closer to the book. I also see the need to change seasons 2 and 3 as there is a lot of characters going there and back again. End book 3 and Book 4 is where the story really gets going so let’s get there asap. 

59 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I don’t think it changes the story much if they do or don’t. 

Sorry the key thing in the books is that Rand resists Lanfer in a way the Lewis couldn’t. 

5 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Good point regarding not knowing that channelers could be forced to the dark side. Additionally I thoroughly understand and agree that Rand had so many obligations and couldn’t possibly see to them all himself. I get the necessity to address the gathering and training of male channelers and the impracticality of Rand seeing to it himself. For one thing, he can’t train and teach the ability to harness the OP when he himself doesn’t know how or what to do. I’m aware of the situation being the way it is for a good reason but it still causes me excruciating and agonizing anxiety and frustration lol! 
 

one more question, did LTT know about the ability to force people to the shadow, was it common knowledge in the AOL? LTT is very adamant in using his knowledge to influence Rand. Too bad he’s mad and doesn’t explain his reasoning coherently. 

Not sure if LTT did know, it is clear the Aes Sedai did know, but in typical AS fashion decided not to share with anyone it might impact. It is also possible that by the time Rand had that knowledge (after the mind meld), he realised it was too late. the fact that Egwene sees it in her vision in the arches suggests that it was a possible future if Rand went to the black tower. We always assume that scene was in the white tower but it may have been she was in the cells of the black. 
 

40 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Is it certain that if the female half of the power had participated in the event then both aspects of the OP would have been tainted? Or could it be possible that both forces working together may have been strong enough to successfully overpower the DO? No way to know for sure, for many reasons (for example the story would never have happened) but it seems like it is accepted as fact by readers that this was the only outcome possible. 

Don’t have the book to hand but it specifically states at the last battle as Rand forges the new seals that the DO tries to taint both halves of the power but is unable to as they are protected by the true power being drawn from Moridin. So yes, he would have made all channelers mad, and who is to say in the next turning that isn’t what happens. 

20 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

That scene always stuck with me too. I reread it recently and was shocked to find that the scene is not graphic at all. Donaldson describes almost nothing about the actual rape. 
 

What makes it so effective and memorable is how well he writes the feelings that Covenant experiences before, during, and after. But the actual scene is described in a couple of sentences. 

I think maybe what we have become used to now, as well as the fact it was so shocking to even have a hint of that in fantasy back then, means that it has lost some of its impact now on re reading. I can’t help but wonder, if a different author was writing that now would it be described the same way. 
 

I think generally the way that RJ and others write these scenes, leaving it to the imagination, means that for some they are more tame than to others. It’s the HP love craft style of writing horror, show the before and the after and just give the barest hint of the actual scary bit. 

If we are talking about adaptations lets look a little wider then fantasy then. 
 

West Side story is accepted to be a direct adaptation of Romeo and Juliet, 

My own private Idaho is lifted from Henry the VI and Henry the V, 

O is Othello. I could go on, there are plenty of other Adaptations of classical works that bear no resemblance to the original but are considered true because they keep to the same broad themes of the original work. You don't mind that the "lore" is different, or that the story takes a detour. The same broad strokes are there and you can see the original work in the story, but, you can't say that it is lifted page for page and there are changes made for the story being told. You don't have people asking why West Side Story doesn't follow Romeo and Juliet more closely especially given (spoiler) that the Juliett character (Maria) lives at the end. 

Now for some reason we hold an adaptation of a fantasy novel to some higher level then the work of one of the english languages greatest writers. Does the WOT feel like the WOT, indisputably yes. the character names have not changed, the main locations that are shown on screen all match locations in the books, the overall lore has not been messed with. The Bore was drilled, then in attempting to close it the power was tainted, Rand is the Dragon and so on. Yes people can nitpick about things they spot that don't match what they wanted to see, they can argue over semantics, and that is what it is, semantics. but none of the things that have been changed make this feel like a different world to the WOT, they don't make it feel like a fundamentally different story. In broad strokes the main lore is all there, the story is not fundamentally different in anyway that makes a significant difference to the end goal of getting the characters to the last battle and re sealing the bore. WOT is far closer then West Side Story is to Romeo and Juliet, yet people don't say that West Side Story is a bad adaptation of that work. 

Now we can go round and round in circles arguing the broad issues about what was removed, added, changed and why your fav character has been hard done by. But, the fact is that this is indisputably the WOT.

There were some good moments but the more I read the last 3 books the more I dislike the cheap tricks Brandon uses to try and generate tension. Especially when it is so different to RJs writing style. 
 

I had no issue with Lan killing Demandred, it would have just been a nice little moment if there had been a reveal to Demandred. I mean space could have been made by not having the same fight happen 3 times. You only needed Galad and Lan to fight Demandred, Gawyn was pointless other then a cheap effort to kill him. 

3 hours ago, Elglin said:

They've put out a small scene from S2 featuring Rand and Logain. If one wants to be nitpicky, Logain in the books wasn't that larger than life as Alvaro Morte is portraying him. However, for all the extra ham, Alvaro completely steals the scene.

Logain in the books was a broken man long after stilling by the time we spend real time with him. Who knows how he was in the immediate aftermath or before. When he goes back to Rand after being healed he makes a big deal out of not acknowledging what Rand achieved in cleansing the taint, he actually frustrates Rand a little with his refusal to truly bow to him fully. 
 

When you consider the journey we know Logain will go on that larger then life persona is key in then showing the change post the attempt to turn him, followed by his final true redemption at the closing stages of the last battle. 

2 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Then what in your opinion should BS have done with Gawyn ?

Had him die protecting Egwene, not fighting Demandred. It was enough to have Demandred beat Galad to show how able he is and Galad didn’t need the inspiration of his brothers death to make him go and take on the forsaken. The story telling was clunky, Brandon is worse then RJ at writing relationships but I got Gawyns reasoning and issues as bad as they where written. 
 

Brandon did something that RJ never did, which was to try and artificially create tension, and he did it both times with the dream spike, also artificially creating that tension between Gawyn and Silviana so making him not return straight away. Gawyn is undone by that really poor writing  making him look pertulant and childish while he is in andor. 
 

But yes, have him die while Egwene is fighting Taim the first time.

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

But what if they served you cubed steak or roast beef? What about a pork chop, chicken, a hamburger, or fried tofu?  What about nachos? Fried rice?  Salad? Hummus with chips?  Some level of variation is acceptable, but not everything is a steak.  You can't just say it had to be somewhat different and therefore any difference is justified.  

Sorry this is a really bad analogy, once again there is nothing inherently different between the TV show and the books at the end of season 1 the characters are all where they need to be and generally match the emotional and developmental state they are in at the end of the first book. The overall issues with bits of lore or this character didn’t or did do this or that do not take away from the overall themes of the story. People are obsessing over details, and I agree we can debate the pros and cons of those decisions, but this is is fundamentally the wheel of time, it fundamentally matches the overall arc of the story and it tells the tale of Rand Al Thor and his friends and how they get to the last battle and beat the dark one.