On 6/26/2023 at 6:57 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

We got to experience so many complex and interesting plots in the books thanks to the lack of limits such as time and budget. Obviously the show has to operate with limits in every aspect. With that in mind, what significant book plots do you think might have to be abandoned in the show? I think some of the lengthy focus on the Elayne succession or the faile/Perrin abduction and rescue saga will either need to be condensed or eliminated. Just to name two. Any other thoughts or examples?

Faile Perrin abduction is actually not that long, it feels it in the books, mainly because there is such a big gap between scenes, and there is a lot of repetition, RJ did like his long reminders of what has happened so far as if he was worried someone would jump in on book 9 and wonder what was going on. It is also very very key to Perrin's development. He risks everything to save her, which then makes his decision at the last battle even more heart wrenching. 

As for things that can be cut. 

Hinderstep, I don't want it to be, it is a great little bit that gets a lovely call back in the last battle but might be wasted TV time. 
The girls leaving Tar Valon with Liandrin, only to come back and then be sent away by Siuan, I see that leaving of Tar Valon happening only once. 
Avihenda going to Rhuidean and the second vision, it has no bearing on the last battle at all, she can call out for the aiel to be made part of the dragon peace without needing to have that all happen.
Fighting Ishy twice in a similar way, I can see Rand sheathing the sword but then killing Ishy outright there and then. 
The hunt for the Domination Bands. 
The rescue of Morraine, I can see that whole scene and moraines arc being changed in some way because ultimately that scene doesn't really drive anything character development wise in terms of Mat. It gets Mat away from Andor so he cant defend the city, and it gets Moraine back to settle everyone down at the dragons peace meeting. All that TV time just for those to things. 
Most of the Cairhien political stuff, the factions etc, there will need to just be enough to allow Rand to be kidnapped from there. 
Most of Elaynes political manoeuvring to get the throne. 
 

On 6/22/2023 at 6:30 AM, Samt said:

So we can only discuss things that can be quantified and everyone agrees about? Beauty doesn’t exist? Love doesn’t exist? Meaning doesn’t exist?  
 

And I think you are exaggerating the degree to which people can’t agree. If you ask specific questions, you can get agreement. Does making Abel Cauthon a womanizer make the adaptation more or less faithful？What about giving Perrin a wife to kill?  Making those changes makes the adaptation less faithful. Maybe you think this isn’t important or that those are good changes that help in some way.  But it’s a bit obtuse to pretend that those aren’t actual changes that reduce the degree to which the adaptation follows the source material.

In order to make the shift from page to TV change will always be needed, really there are 3 points to consider here, to what degree are things factually faithful to the book, to what degree do they maintain the same spirit of the book, and to what extent are the changes needed in order to be able to make a logical workable TV show? 

Taking the points above I think we can all agree the Abel Cauthon change is not needed in any way, it changes something that never needed changing 

Perrin killing his wife, yes is an adaptation and change from the book, but, it does in one scene, in one moment what the books take pages and pages to achieve, it demonstrates the rage inside him, the ability to lose his himself and it helps an audience who know nothing about this character understand, in a moment, his motivation. 

This is an example of an adaptation that, by all means you can dislike, but you have to understand and accept there is a narrative reason to have it even if it is not one you agree with. 

Ultimately I think it is agreed the best fantasy adaptation of book to screen that has been done is the Lord of the Rings. In making that movie Peter Jackson defined the template that all epic adaptations should follow he started from the end and worked backwards. Frodo and Sam have to get the ring to Mount Doom. He then identified all the key important pieces that have to take place in order for that to happen, the characters that have to exist fro the books to make that happen and the key events that drive that single story forward. Now Peter Jackson was lucky, the LOTR is a very linear book, there is one party split that happens and after the fellowship the books are effectively written in 2 halfs telling  either the story of Frodo and Sam, or of Aragorn etc. 

Wheel of time if you start at that end point, the start of the last battle, what are the key things that need to take place. 

Rand is the Dragon reborn and has gone through a journey (which will be truncated due to the realities of time to screen) to ensure he has got to that point. 
Egwene is the Amirylian Seat and has discovered her power, both physically but also politically
Nynaeve is an Aes Sedai and has discovered her power, both physically and emotionally 
Elayne is an Aes Sedai and has discovered her power, again physically, politically but also has forged that relationship with Rand, Avihenda and Min
Avihenda is a wise women and has identified her power (I doubt very much we will see any of her return into the crystal forest or the future of the aiel, that has no bearing on the tale of the last battle). She has also forged a relationship with Rand, Elayne and Min. 
Mat has had his journey Truncated because of time, he has his medallion, has married Tuon, has demonstrated he is a great general and formed his army and ensured the dragons have been made, and has blown the horn so that moment of tension can be maintained through the last battle.
Perrin has met Faile, has his own army, has accepted his wolf side (although not fully that does not happen until during the last battle) and has accepted he is a leader of men, he can traverse the dream world. 

We can go on and on but the key thing is that, if a character is not key to the last battle, they are irrelevant to the TV show unless they play a key role in the development of another character. Bayle Domon, I love him but not needed, Egeanin again, not an important role at all anyone can take that role of Egwenes warder at the end and then run and tell logain to break the seals. 

Taking that thought pattern then season 1 had a simple job to do, define by the end who the characters are and what motivates them while putting them in the right place to continue the story while defining the world they all exist in. In this respect as an adaptation while it had it's issues (and I have grave issues with the production values, the dialogue and the way the CGI was done), it achieved all of this. It is a faithful adaptation because the changes that you or I spot do not detract from the overall key aspects of the story. 

When LOTR came out it was berated online by book lovers, and I myself had serious issues with some of the things that where done now, with a cooler head and hindsight I can look back and say Peter Jackson did a great job. With the WOT, as long as the story told on screen gets us to that last battle with the characters in the same emotional developed state they are in the book I don't care if they make changes along the way to streamline things on screen.  am going to hold judgement on how good season 1 truly is until season 8 is completed because, as long as it has set things up well (and no one can say if it has or hasn't because we have not experienced it), then I am happy. 

On 7/1/2023 at 11:52 AM, DojoToad said:

Yes. In book-form, it was a never ending cliff hanger. 🤮

See for me there is a lot of cliff hanger moments with that whole thing, Faille getting captured, the build up to Perrin rescuing her, the stuff int he camp, there are moments there that I didn't know what was going to happen the first time. That whole piece of the book in isolation moves really swiftly and is really good, the issue comes that it is so disjointed and spread out. 

On 7/1/2023 at 9:47 AM, zacz1987 said:

 

Honestly there is not a huge amount to reduce. Its more that Perrin and Faile only got a few chapters each book which made it drag on over multiple books and then the plotline had to be reintroduced each book and the recapping made it overly repetitive.

 

If the timeline was reduced (For example all the Perrin and Faile stuff happened in a single season with a portion of each episode dedicated to it) it wouldn't feel so bad.

To be fair, having just re read the books again I had forgotten just how much recapping there is throughout. Like you the Perrin and faille story for me flows along really nicely and quickly as an isolated piece. the hunting the shaido is dealt with fairly swiftly as well. 

On 5/31/2023 at 11:33 AM, DojoToad said:

I'm not sure about @phanooglestixs but I'm not sure that your questions are apples to apples.  Star Wars started out as movies, the books came later.  The MCU I can't speak to as I'm not a comic book person.  That said, I enjoyed the movies but I'm not sure what a comic book 'purist' would say.

Purists, and there are many, rip every movie apart complaining that there fav hero's villains and stories have been destroyed. 

The interaction with Gaul is so key to his development that they have to include him in the show. Seeing Avihenda fighting whitecloaks does not suggest that she is in Eomonds field or taking that role. It could be a way of showing there are darkfriends even amongst the whitecloaks if they are the ones that capture the 3 girls and offer them to a Myddrahl only to be rescued by the Aiel. 

Perrins development I see being much like the book, pushing the wolves away, trying to escape them needs to be something that he does right the way through to the end, in the books he doesn't truly understand until book 12 or 13. They also have to include Noam, he is a really key important character who would take up very little TV time but is key in helping Perrin understand. 

The hammer shouldn't come until the end of season 4 or maybe even season 5, whenever they do the battle of Maldon. 

Obviously he is going to find Faile a different way, but he clearly needs to be with her by the time they get to tear, once again that whole moment where he goes into the dream to save her is a key moment for his character and that whole scene is far to cinematic not to have it on screen. I imagine the battle for Emonds field will be in season 3 and this is when we start seeing the reluctant lord Perrin, again his arc doesn't get resolved really until book 12 or 13 when he accepts his place. 

On 7/1/2023 at 7:14 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Not according to the 3 books in the series that I've read and everything that I've found online. 

 

Lews Therin Telamon, in the books, was, to my knowledge, labeled The Dragon posthumously and all prophecies regarding him apply specifically to him being reincarnated in the future relative to when he lived, whereas in the show, he was specifically referred to as The Dragon Reborn while still alive.

It very clearly is the way the show is going to demonstrate the madness, those are not real dragons, in fact they are very probably not real. I will say if you are only 3 books in then I don't want to spoil anything but it is explained much later that Rands madness is very different to the other male channellers. 

We don't know from the books exactly what information they knew in the age of legends. Again far later on in the books it is suggested that Lewis Therin had a lot more knowledge about the turning of the wheel and the fact this battle is being constantly fought so it isn't necessarily a massive "lore break"  but that all comes in the last 3 books. 

On 7/1/2023 at 4:43 PM, DigificWriter said:

The TV show changed Robert Jordan's underlying lore so that A) Lews Therin Telamon was himself the reincarnation of an earlier Dragon and B) the Dragon could have legitimately been reincarnated in female form, so the voices that Logain hears/figures that he sees are accordingly heavily implied to legitimately be past Dragons.

 

What that does or doesn't mean for Rand - the actual reincarnation of the Dragon - versus what it meant for Logain- who merely believed himself to be the Dragon - is yet to be demonstrated.

Lewis Therin was always a reincarnation of an earlier dragon. Ishy tells him, we have fought this battle over and over and will again into the future. 

It did not state the Dragon could be reincarnated as a women, Moraine thinking it might be possible does not make it lore in universe, it makes Moraine wrong. Rafe has stated that Rand was always the dragon and that lore has not been changed. 

I do love how people are jumping on the very normal concept of an unreliable narrator in storytelling and insisting it is breaking lore. Characters are allowed to be wrong in universe. 

13 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i wouldn't call it a "major plot point". it was just another detail of aes sedai politics. in general, if there is one thing we can be sure will be cut, is a lot of aes sedai politics. it would be incomprehensible to the viewer. it was hard even for dedicated readers. if they wanted to explain it in detail, they'd need several additional seasons just of aes sedai plotting.

so, while some aes sedai politics was kept - a few scenes in S1E6 with various aes sedai blackmailing each other gave a good idea, I think - it will be hugely simplified for clarity.

if they merge alviarin with liandrin or elaida, i would not cry a bit.

I really don’t get that argument, the major politics of the white tower never confused me once all the pieces were revealed. But the whole point about Liandrin is that it is not a red ajah coup. There is a risk that the tv show turns it into a red coup as opposed to showing how the black is manipulating everything. In terms of the politics piece a really easy way is to show the pieces moving as it happens rather then revealing that the heads of each ajah where trying to be the power behind the throne far later in the series. 
 

And like I say merging Elaida with either black sister just undermines that whole part of the story. She is convinced she is doing the right thing and it is her that has to save the world because of that vision. 

Am holding judgement until I see it, it certainly looks more polished, which goes to emphasise that Covid undoubtably had a large impact on the 1st season. But, I am seeing more and more diversion from the story here. Rand and Logain meeting in book 2? That suggests he will be travelling with Siuan when they go to see Rand. How this then translates into Logain escaping the tower with Siuan, Min and Leanne I am not sure. Looks like we will get Nynaves testing, which is great, so my guess is, as I have been postulating for a while the girls will travel to tar valon and then leave only the once (until Egwene is made Amirylian Seat). This suggests that characters will learn much faster and not have to have the rigours of lessons they do in the book possibly. 

The assumption that the dark lord has been released continues the narrative that Morraine is an unreliable narrator, which I like, it makes far more sense that the Black Ajah, on command of the Forsaken would have confused the narrative and done all they can to throw people off the scent. 

Really hope that Liandrin does not take up the Elaida role as has been suggested, the whole point of Elaida being raised was to have a puppet on the throne and the black ruling from the shadows, also it is really important for the battle of wills between Egwene and the amirylian that she not be of the black and that we as viewers are aware of that (as we are in the books). it also makes no sense for Liandrin to take the role of Alvarian because a major plot point there is that she is of the white. 

To be fair the trailer gives very little away, and also I wonder if it is all taken from the first 1-2 episodes so as to keep the good stuff hidden? This is a trick used a lot nowadays, marvel films seem to have started it (usually trailers for marvel movies consist of bits from the opening scenes). 

On 3/17/2023 at 9:00 AM, Kalessin said:

Jaric Mondoran, to be precise ... and I'm pretty sure he was one of the Hundred Companions.

A scene I am hoping they show in the tv series. 

On 1/24/2023 at 4:24 PM, DojoToad said:

Right.  If the ability to channel were dominant there would be a lot more channelers.

Several times early on in the books different characters hint at the lack of powerful aes sedai being linked to how efficient the reds have been. We also see with the ashaman that there is a definite genetic element it being passed Father to son. So there is a definite genetic element to having the one power. 

On 7/3/2023 at 6:22 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

Healing can’t be an ordinary weave.

weaves do a thing. A construct acts situationally. If someone is anemic, it increases their blood clot factor, if someone is suffering clots it reduces the blood clot factor. If someone has a wound in one part of the body, it only “heals” there.

we were introduced to the idea of other kinds of weaves that heal specific parts of the body like the heart, and one Aes Sedai can dial in the power so carefully that she can heal someone just enough to live without healing the body so completely that the patient dies from the loss of energy, but she can’t prevent the weaves from healing a scratch while it heals the lung.

Healing is a perfectly ordinary weave. As with all aspects of the power there are different weaves that do different things and, as is consistent with the story many of the wonders of the age of legends have been lost. 
 

So the Aes Sedai have lost how to heal properly, the only method they have is that all or nothing approach. Heal all the body or none of it. As you say this puts great strain on the body being healed. But it is still a weave and the Aes sedai has to be in control the whole time and has to direct it. 
 

Later on it is one of the Ashaman who discovers how to heal only that which has been damaged, that combines with Nynave discovering how to combine all the powers to heal leads the yellow ajah and the kin to develop and learn different types of healing many of which are probably being re learnt. However again this is still weaves there is nothing different here to the weave for throwing a stone, or compulsion. 
 

Now onto your next points. Callandor did not make the weave to kill the trollocs etc? Rand did it, and he monologues to himself about it several times later in the books. It was a weave that he controlled and directed. 
 

The bowl of the winds, this also only worked while being channeled into. We know that in the age of legends it was one of many that formed a system

around earth. On its own aes sedai of the age of legends could only control very localized weather patterns with one. The whole network was needed for many. When it was used to fix the weather it was pushed far beyond anything it should have been able to do, something that shocked the forsaken. But again it was channeled and controlled by the wind finders using it. It was not acting of its own accord. They made small changes to the weather and, like a butterfly causing a hurricane, that then cascaded through the atmosphere to remove the dark lords effect. 

Yeah mat isn’t the best with reading letters he really should. Lol

On 8/5/2023 at 2:21 AM, Gary Again said:

I always thought the strangeness in the power had more to do with Elayne's unraveled gateway since that was more of an uncontrolled explosive blast of the power rather than the bowl of the winds which seemed fairly under control and was actually kind of anticlimactic in the immediate aftermath in that it didn't really change anything at first. It just always made more sense to me that it was the gateway that caused it.

 

I am pretty sure Robert Jordan confirmed that it was the bowl of the winds. There were 3 reasons for this. 
 

1st as mentioned it drew saidin un controlled into it this meant it could not be checked. 
2nd the bowl was originally designed to have only local weather effects. In the age of legends there were many bowls throughout the world and these combined allowed control of global or regional weather. A single bowl could affect only a very tiny area. 
3rd linked to point 2 the effect on the weather was fighting the dark ones effect. The dark one had not changed what the atmosphere was doing he had instead changed how that was felt by the world. There are several times where Nyn can read that the weather should be raining, or storming and it isn’t

So it was this that affected saidin. The female channelers didn’t have the same impact to them. 

On 8/4/2023 at 5:20 PM, king of nowhere said:

look, i'm all for "try to fix things with your loved ones before leaving them forever", but there is a vast gulf between "throwing out a relationship the first time something gets a little bit tough" and "your partner beats you on a regular base and you think it's your fault".

and perhaps the most damning thing in wot relationships is that almost nobody tries to. faile never tries to fix anything. egwene never tries to communicate with her partner(s). nynaeve never communicates, but luckily for her lan is good at reading her. and let's not even get into what will happen with mat. there are very few instances where people sit down and talk things through like rational adults.

I'd be willing to call perrin's relationship ok if faile made any attempt to communicate her problems to perrin. especially because perrin tryies to be the best husband all the time. she can't even claim culture clash, because unlike perrin, she was raised into a court, with the expectation of political marriage to some foreign prince; she should know about different cultures and expectations. instead, faile does all she can to make perrin feel miserable. jut because she hopes he will get angry and will "fight" with her. when all she had to do would be explain that fact to perrin. 

her scene with berelain is also pretty cringy. she pulled a knife on a woman who wanted to court her husband. we can find many similar instances in newspapers, and they never lead to anything good.

 

 

I'm not touching any real life implications. too much of a potential flamebait

I will say out of them all I have the most hope for Mat, it seems his position traditionally in Seanchan is probably short lived and not about romance or love. Tuon however seems to be accepting change far quicker. She sees that the people in Randland are different to what she is used to and accepts that. She gets they won’t try and usurp her, or kill her. She and Mat can forge something like a real relationship and his centuries of memories will help him navigate the intricacies of court. 

The plans leading to the events at the eye of the world where put in place by ishy long before Rand was identified as the dragon reborn and ishy had no way of knowing Rand would get to the eye. He didn’t know moraine would risk the ways, or be able to find the eye of the world so as plans go of it was a trap it was such a convoluted one that it had more chance of failing. 

As has been said Ishy did not expect Rand to turn up a consistent thread of the books is the forsaken underestimating Rand (to incredulous levels sometimes). RJ uses these events to show that fact early on. 

For me it is one of the most real relationship in the books. 2 people who are very opposite in terms of personality but clearly love each other battle to try and find their place with each other. Faile has left where she grew up determined to escape duty and be free of her obligations. She then finds herself time and again being drawn back into the role she was trying to escape. 
 

Perrin has been brought up with a very traditional idea of the roles of men and women based on what he thinks he sees in the interactions growing up. He has no one to explain all the intricacies and what goes on behind the visual facade. 
 

so you have 2 people who have conflicting views on things, in a world with human eating trollocs, magic and other horrors. 
 

I personally find Failles development across the series to be one of the best in terms of the side characters she actually develops, grows and changes. 

7 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Excellent points. I believe it was semhiragh (sorry I can’t spell) who turned to the DO to avoid the punishment you described. There is also a moment where one of the forsaken says “do they bind themselves as criminals?” I think in regards to sharans but referring to the AS oaths which initially pertained to criminals. I’m intrigued by your statement about damane. I never noticed that in all of the mentions about age in the books regarding channelers, I missed it entirely if damane were included in that subject. 

At least one Damme is 400 years old and has barely aged at all, might be one of the ones captured and held by the kin. It is a throwaway comment or sentence.’

Given how many battles have been fought throughout history, and the fact that general military tactics don’t really change massively, I think that rather then studying specific battles the author (be that BS or RJ) gained a view of the tactics that might be used and applied them. 
 

I also think, for me, Mats “tactics” at the last battle are actually not really all that well described and actually are not that deep and amazingly intricate. 

When you consider that Tolkien is the grandfather of all fantasy and inspireRobert Jordan directly, and that Tolkien’s own inspiration came from the myths, legends and stories of our own ancestors then it is easy to draw parallels between LOTR and WOT. In fact I have seen this very comparison played out on forums about most fantasy book series, how the series mirrors LOTR. 
 

I will say however that I also think comparisons here are more a desire to see something that actually isn’t there. Robert Jordan structured his own world with his own thoughts and ideas and, while he was no doubt inspired, in many cases patterns seen at a distance are usually the human brain trying to find links. 
 

On this the human brain is remarkable, you can show a person a picture of a natural surface, for instance another planet, and they will instantly see patterns and refuse to accept they are natural. The same is true for art, people want to see influences and so pull out threads that are not actually there. Robert Jordan said many times he was inspsired by Tolkien as an author, but WOT was not inspired by LOTR other then his publisher asked for a LOTR style fantasy story so book 1 mirrors many of the tropes. I feel RJ drew his cultural and story ideas for WOT direct from many sources, some of which may also have inspired Tolkien. 

The Black Ajah was founded by a forsaken, therefore a Forsaken no doubt structured the oaths. As Verin said no one on the dark side (Darklord, Forsaken, Black Ajah etc), ever imagined someone would infiltrate them, do despicable things to root out the organisation and then commit suicide to report it all back. 
 

Remember no aes sedai truly understands what the oath rod was used for in the time of legends. It was the ultimate punishment for an aes sedai with sentence only passed for the worst of crimes. It was a death sentence and so many who where subject to that sentence where bound not for life but for a set period of time, allowing them to rehabilitate. 

One of the Forsaken comments to herself about the limitations the Aes Sedai put on themselves by using the oath rod. In the age of legends the oath rod was a punishment used as a last resort to ensure the criminal never committed the crime again but also that they would lead a far shorter life. It therefore acts as a form of death sentence. I am pretty sure one of the forsaken escaped to pledge to the dark lord before she was due to be punished. 
 

Aes Sedai seem to think that using the one power more or less impacts lifespan but this assumption is wrong. They come to the belief because they assume the kin are so long lived and age so differently because they barely channel. The fact that stilling has a similar effect on the look of an aes sedai (making them de age), just reinforces this incorrect belief. Especially if you consider that Damme channel with far more regularity and powerful weaves and also don’t age like an aes sedai. 

On 5/31/2023 at 11:02 PM, Sabio said:

An Aes Sedai is still bound by the three oaths.  It would still come down to what the Aes Sedai believes.  Having the ground erupt under someone is clearly a weapon used to harm, but as we saw in other books once the Aes Sedai felt threatened that could use the power.  If the Seanchean are smart enough to look for loopholes is another thing.   I think the necklace prevents linking into  circle, at least from what I remember RJ saying.  Th

Tuon states to herself at one point that captured Mathra Damme can’t be used as weapons no matter how hard they are punished, but do have other uses. She actually thinks as an aside that the “lies” about the 3 oaths might be true.  

Oh my, a fantasy book series written by a geriatric unhealthy author that isn’t anywhere near finished yet, sign me up to start reading that please.