As far as the hall are concerned Siuan and Moraine were implicated in a plot to raise a male channeler up as the Dragon Reborn. For a long time even after Siuans overthrow many Aes Sedai see Rand as still a potential false dragon. 
 

There was also the fact that even if Rand was the Dragon Reborn moraine and Siuan where letting him roam free instead of packing him up in cotton wool, keeping him shielded to be pushed out for the last battle. After all remember he may well break the world. 

For me I feel this is one of the ways Brandon Sanderson changed things with the characters from what RJ might have done. There are lots of little things where I feel the voices change in terms of things they say, ways they behave (slightly) and sometimes actions they take. 

On 6/20/2023 at 5:37 PM, WheelofJuke said:

This is my umpteenth time reading The Dragon Reborn, but the first since completing the full series. I seem to be picking up more of the "behind the scenes" intrigue and Forsaken machinations this time around.

 

But I'm also finding plot points that seem inconsistent to the rest of the books. Not sure if I should call them "continuity issues" or "plot holes." 😉

Not sure if these have been discussed before. I'm sure they have been, as the community has always been on top of such things. 

A few of my observations:

- Why isn't Lan with Moiraine when she confronts Be'lal in the Heart of the Stone, despite saying he was going (and her acquiescing) in an earlier chapter? I find it hard to believe he'd just wander off at the most important moment. And if he was held back, why didn't he rush to her aid at the first chance he had after Be'lal crumples her up? 

- Why is Rand able to split and redirect Baalzamon's balefire in the Heart of the Stone, but Be'lal isn't able to react in time to Moiraine's similar blast of balefire?

- When Nynaeve balefires the Myrddraal after being captured by bandits, why aren't the Aiel who were killed/wounded by those Myrddraal brought back to life/healed of their wounds? 

- Why is Rand able to channel through Callandor in the Heart of the Stone without incident, yet it proves unwieldy in later books (when his lightning against the Seanchan strikes his own men, killing them)?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Did Nynave use bale fire here? I have never seen it as that, she just used normal fire. If someone has confirmed it def was balefire please correct me but the description of it is very different to how balefire is described elsewhere. 
 

and ignore me went back and re read and yes it is very balefire ish. 

I feel that apart from the way the series ends, having reread it again recently I have realised just how bad the writing gets in the last 3 books, and how much Brandon changes the tone and voice of the characters and the overall story. I don’t blame him for that, it was an unenviable position, but it just sours the series for me now. 
 

I also always have more then one book on the go at once so alongside WOT I am reading through the Horus heresy series, the reading the Thomas covenant series (I think marginally better then WOT) and picking up random one off books as well. 

On 7/15/2023 at 2:20 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It is heavily implied that the transfer is achieved by the renegade damane for whom Min prophesies "she is going to help you die" not by Rand himself.

Sorry I don’t see her being involved in the transfer in anyway. It was something independent of anything anyone could do, all she did was get his money, clothes etc (Rand says this himself at the end). 
 

The transfer is a combination of things .

The crossing of balefire linking the 2 together. 
The fact that Rand and Moridin where linked through Callandor when they both died. 
Nakomi doing “something” 

We have seen throughout the series that the dark lord could swap souls from one body to another. In many ways this foreshadows this very action, either the fact that Moridins body was not his original one made it possible for the souls to “swap”, or something directly was done by the creator. There is no way a wilder channeler who’s only skills have been waging war can suddenly facilitate the swapping of souls. 

I now only buy from second hand book sellers online, there are so many books floating around the world that it is better to buy used then new. 
 

https://www.wob.com/en-gb?cq_src=google_ads&cq_cmp=1424181577&cq_con=56710850395&cq_med=&cq_plac=&cq_net=g&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuODG5Ym3gAMVGrjtCh1jhwCxEAAYASAAEgKdPfD_BwE

that is one site I use. 

8 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

As a more general point by the third age there appears to be a complete lack of scientific curiosity regarding the one power or the world in general - they do what works and teach the known weaves to novices but experimentation is frowned upon (for some good reasons as it can be very dangerous - but this appears to have led to a strong mindset in most sisters even after passing the tests).

Even the brown ajah appear to be recording facts about the world, not generally trying to reach and test any hypothesis based on those observations.  Even a cursory knowledge of science would suggest areas for experimentation with the one power (e.g. it is not possible to pick yourself up with air, but is levitation possible by generating a magnetic field using earth?).

I think this is a natural side effect of the world they are in, scientific discovery in general is limited. The illuminators for instance do not like their members trying new things with gunpowder. Rand tries to change this as part of the legacy he tries to leave behind. 

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

You know, now I want to set a story during the Age of Legends using Balefire in a similar way to how Minority Report worked. 

A murder happens and It's up the TRPD (Tactical Retroactive Prevention Dept) have 10 days to catch the perp in order to retro prevent the crime.  Meanwhile rising concerns come from the scientific community that BaleFire is dangerous to our world.  Meanwhile, one person has uncovered a plot to start the War of Shadow, only to stop it they had to commit murder, can they avoid capture until past the point of no return?  Find out in "Trapped in Time"   

Sometimes I dislike that my DM history makes me so casually amused with ideas in existing worlds instead of purely writing my own.

I have my own world, and constantly realize the “unique” ideas I have are lifted in some way from books I have read lol. 

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Second law of thermodynamics states something like a closed system eventually breaks down, so even though WOT isn’t based on our laws of physics i would still think creation/creator would need to add more energy/souls from time to time to ensure creation doesn’t implode on itself 

RJ stated that WOT does not follow the 2nd law, he said the sun will never change in his world. So the wheel will never have to contend with it expanding and destroying earth. 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I mean, it's not new information. 😉 (That quote is nearly 25 years old!)

The Main reason Rand uses it on Forsaken is so the DO can't bring them back. The DO has only a short window to transfer the "soul" to a new body.

Since Balefire burns the thread backward in time, it prevents the DO from retroactively transferring the soul.
If there's a quote in the books that state the "soul" is forever destroyed by balefire, it comes down to unreliable narrator territory. 

Ahhh ok so you would have to balefire the soul right back to the point of creation I guess you are saying? So the person is gone, but the soul that created them is waiting to be reborn. That makes sense and allows for the creator to know there will never be a soul shortage. 

So I have always assumed that as reincarnation happens in WOT and there is a defined pattern, that there must be a finite fixed number of total souls that exist. Each one being reincarnated at different points. 
 

However this can’t be true, new souls must be being created, otherwise the total number of souls would steadily deplete. 
 

Balefire is the first cause for this depletion. Not so much an issue now but we know the in the war of shadow it was being used to eradicate entire cities. Millions of souls removed from the pattern to never be reincarnated, 

The DO  may be the other reason, he removes the souls of various of his tools now we do not know if these souls are then destroyed, or if they get spun back into the pattern once the original body has been destroyed. 
 

Over the course of turning to turning, if there is a finite resource of souls to start with, both of these things will steadily remove more and more souls. So last shadow war may not have exhausted it, but there will be another one and, balefire will be re learnt in one age and used to eradicate more souls. Over turn after turn the souls steadily trend down. 
 

So do you believe that new souls are created and not everyone is a reincarnation. In return is it possible that some souls do in fact pass on to whatever there is after, spinning out of the pattern? Or is the only way souls are removed the active intervention of other people? 

Not sure if we ever saw this event but. 
 

If someone channeled Balefire to kill a person and then someone else channeled Balefire to kill that person. Is the first balefire undone, even if there is no pattern to recover? 

4 hours ago, Samt said:

I think there are three events that get brought up as Matt coming back from the dead. 
 

First, Rahvin kills him and Rand Balefires Rahvin to reverse it. This is a confirmed “resurrection” since Matt is confirmed dead prior to the Balefire.

 

Second, the dark hounds are balefired after slobbering on Matt. Matt might have been dead, but it’s likely he was only mortally wounded and not dead yet. I think it’s unclear.

 

Third, Matt gets hung from the Ashandarei. I don’t think he was dead, because if he was he would be dead. There was no Balefire or other shenanigans to bring him back. Rand cuts him down and revives him, but logically this just means he was dying from the hanging but it hadn’t killed him yet.

I agree when the dark hounds slobber over Mat he may not have long left to live but doesn’t actually die. 

On 12/19/2021 at 6:22 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

I always took that to mean reliving the memories that he had stuffed in his head. Because he was only reliving parts of those lives, and it only started after Rhuidean, which is the first part of the foretelling. Plus he gets two more foretelling (Nine Moons, Light of the World) , so the first two have to be a single foretelling; otherwise he'd be getting 4, which was against the rules

The snakes where forced to break there own rules and give him extra foretellings because there where 2 tavernean in the gateway. 

9 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

There have been darn near infinite DUNE adaptations to the big and small screen. 

 

In my opinion if people JUST started comparing then there may be something wrong with said people lol. 

Sorry to clarify I am talking about non book readers. Are they going to see these 2 things on screen side by side and feel one is a bit derivative? Will non book commentators start making the comparisons online? 

The similarities between the Aiel and the Freman, Rand/Avihenda and Paul/Chani are obvious and have been discussed at length online. I know many have stated that RJ was not influenced by the dune saga but I sometimes find that difficult to believe. There are other similarities as well, the bene gessarit and the aes sedai for instance, 
 

Currently Dune part 2 is due to land end 2023, with rumors of a planned 3rd movie or a limited streaming/HBO style series being announced based on how the 2nd movie lands. This means that potentially for the next few years at least, assuming a Novemberish release date for WOT each year, you can have Dune landing about the same time. 
 

So I wonder, do the writers and producers of WOT risk now having the material compared side by side? Will that cause any issues especially given just how truly amazing the first Dune movie was. Or are they different enough that people will see it for the independent productions they are? And yes one is sci fi the other fantasy which may be all it takes for people not to dissect the similarities? 

So the follow up do we remove this entirely from the lore of becoming accepted in the tv show? Or is it simply done off screen and we only see the aftermath? 

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I would argue that they are both changed.

 

Egwene was going to marry Rand.  Her exposure to the bigger world would have changed that eventually, but her experience at the arches  let her know that she wanted something or someone different than a domestic situation with Rand.  It accelerated where she would have ended up after leaving the Two Rivers.

 

Nynaeve would have been content to be the Wisdom of a small backwater had she not chased down Moiraine and company.  The experiences in the arches showed her an expanded world including more responsibility and a partnership.  Why settle?

Did the arches make these changes happen? Nyn had already made the decision to be Aes Sedai to keep Rand and the rest of the children safe. She had already accepted she loved Lan, and had been upset by his rejection (in her mind). the arches didn’t give her anything new other than torment her. But she doesn’t come out a changed person. If she hadn’t gone through she would have continued on the exact same journey making all the same decisions. 
 

Likewise Egwene, has already accepted she doesn’t live Rand like that and can’t marry him. She makes the switch the moment she understands he can channel. All her inner monologue is about keeping him safe and the world safe from him. Hence she easily allows elayne to take her place. Again that decision is not driven by her experience in the arches and later on she does not use her experience of sacrificing Rand, or fighting the black ajah except, I believe, to ask about a circle of 13? For her finding out she can be aes sedai is what drives her to leave her small world behind. She never had any doubt before the arches (if she had she would not have made it though). 
 

I get that is the purpose of the test, but, that is all it is presented as by RJ, a test with no lesson to learn in fact they are told to never speak of what is seen again and if possible try to forget it. Which seemingly they do. 
 

It just feels very much like a massive missed opportunity to me, and something that, as I say leaves massive gaping questions that never get resolved and almost just get forgotten.

26 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

That might explain his actions after Caemlyn - but why was he there in the first place?  It is hugely improbable that any Ogier would be in the Queen's Blessing when Rand arrived, let alone one who had studied the ways and was reckless and impressionable enough to agree to do so.  

 

Also I did not say they were needed for the age of legends, only that they have to depart at some stage before it comes again.

If we are to assume the next age of legends must be after a hard reset then this is true. Humanity needs to be put in a position where all technology and knowledge of the one power is lost entirely and humanity has no sense of anything not “human”. Ogier must therefore either die out or leave. Or there has to be some huge cosmic reset. 
 

As for why he was there, the tapestry can make things happen, are we saying Fades, Trollcos, Gollum etc are also weaved into the tapestry? If we believe Ogier are then we must accept that every living sentient being in Randland is also weaved in. So that trolloc soul is destined to emerge again in some form? Or do they now sit, unused? 
 

When Ogier leave are there souls spun out of the pattern as well? Do Ogier only resurrect as Ogier? This works only if Ogier are from within our universe and the pattern is universe wide, but, as I say if that where the case then there would be some other evidence of intelligent life in the world of dreams, the horn, or just in the tapestry. The dragon being able to be reborn on earth, or alpha Ceti, or the narn homeworld. So it makes more sense if the “tapestry” is a Randland only concept or idea. Which then feeds back into the idea of the whole of Randland being the dark ones prison to keep the universe safe. 

6 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I think we know the opposite - an Ogier (loial) is in precisely the time and place required by the pattern to allow the pursuit through the ways - and is only there due to acting in a very un-ogier way in leaving the stedding at all.  Clearly he is part of the web being influenced by the ta'veren and therefore part of the pattern.

 

Also it is not stated that they must leave for the 4th age to start - only that they must leave before the age of legends returns, presumably because the much longer memories of ogier would retain knowledge of the dark one for too long - either they are present only in some turnings or wherever they go time passes much more quickly than in the human world, suggesting a differing universe or mirror world.

 

Similarly sindol has widely differing physics to the main world (such that turning and going back does not retrace your steps) - meaning the most reasonable conclusion is they are part of a differing universe or world. 

I might be mis remembering the quote but looking throughout various resources online it seems the general consensus is the Ogier state they must leave through the book of translation for the 4th age to start, not the age of legends. 
 

I also don’t think you can say Loial is baked into the pattern. He is more drawn in by his close proximity to Rand. We don’t see any Ogier in the horn and we don’t have any indication that Ogier believe there souls are reincarnated. Again happy to correct that thought if you can provide quotes or information I have missed but it seems something that Loial would have commented on. 
 

With Sindol as I said in my original post this may well be in a different universe, but, the strange geometry retracing your steps etc could also be an indication of a far advanced technology within our own universe, or a planet that exists in some strange situation, orbiting a black hole. There are many explanations beyond alternate universes. 
 

Because we have no proof either way I take the view that Sindol and the Ogier come from a planet in our own universe, possibly not even in the Milky Way. The vagaries of traveling large distances and time dilation means the Finn could be far into the future and could indicate that during the AOL many other species of intelligent life where identified throughout the cosmos, and, possibly Humanity spread outwards as well. Traveling to other planets before the breaking. I just refuse to believe that in the vast expanse of the universe the only intelligent beings within it are on Randland meaning trillions of stars and planets that exist for no purpose. 
 

In the book forum I posted the sense I get that, or all the major events to happen to the main characters throughout the books, the 3 arches experience  of Nyn and Egwene has no long term character impact 

The scenes themselves are told well, and they include some minor foreshadowing. But neither character is significantly changed by the event, neither character has a moment later on where there experience here “pays off”, either in a choice they make, or an action they succeed in. 
 

The scenes post more questions than answers and these questions are never followed up. 
 

Yes you can argue as a world building exercise they add something, we get to experience what becoming accepted involves. But in terms of character development the only thing that happens is the girls become accepted. 
 

So with that in mind, I will not be disappointed if they remove those scenes from the TV series. It is never good to have questions left that can never be paid off, or to have scenes shown that never then feed into a future action. So you would have scenes that will take time and budget to film and then never pay anything off. They do not impact the last battle other than being a test, a first step on the journey for the female leads. So many bigger things shape them later. 
 

Especially when you compare this with Avi’s equivalent journey which we don’t see but drastically impacts her character and changes her. 
 

So thoughts are the silver arches scenes an absolute must for you? 

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Whatever the arches were originally made for (and it is not thought it was originally for the test) their purpose is not to be a moment of change but instead to show prospective Aes'Sedai something of the alternative life choices they are turning away from if they pursue the calling of an Aes'Sedai - those who do not have the focused commitment will either fail to emerge from the arch as they accept the vision or will chose not to finish the test or to continue to later test as Aes'Sedai.  There is no suggesting that the test is to alter the mind of the one tested, only to make them question their motives for training in the tower.

But from a story perspective every experience a character undergoes should shape them in some way, pay off in the future in terms of a decision made or a change in approach or thinking. We as individuals are shaped by every experience and going through an experience such as that at a young age should really be the most transformative experience for a person. 
 

Nyn and Egwene witnessed some of the worst things that could happen, they leave, they have a night of tears, and then behave as if nothing happened. It brings them closer for that one night after Egwene’s test but very quickly that is even forgotten. From a character driven story telling standpoint the rings add nothing and we would lose nothing if they were removed. Now you can argue that from a world building standpoint they do explore the world more but my point is that, probably more then any other major scene involving the main characters in any of the books, these pages do nothing to drive character development. 
 

Compare this to Avi and Morraines experiences later on and you see those visions (while we never see them) truly pay off as n the story in a major way. 
 

So I have been rereading the books and, for obvious reasons, find myself picking apart each scene in terms of its overall narrative importance for the tv show, and there is one that initially I thought was really key, but, re reading further I now find myself wondering. 
 

The scenes where Nyn and Egwene step into the silver arches are told really well. The scenes are emotive and you feel what the characters are going through in the moment. But, I am struggling to see how they really have any impact beyond the immediate aftermath. Neither character is drastically changed long term by the events. Egwenes visions all revolve around her love of Rand and yet, within a short amount of time in the books she has realised she was either never in love or has fallen out of love. That is not shaped by the events in the arches. Her visions do give us foreshadowing and a bit of world building in the moment, but again not anything that truly affects the story long term, 

Nyns visit seems to have even less impact, it reveals she loves Lan, something she knew and then still refuses to truly acknowledge for a time after. It shows her the 2 rivers, but beyond recollections when she is in the world of dreams she doesn’t really change any of her thoughts or behavior. I thought that her channeling in the arches might pay off but it never does. 
 

I am not saying the scenes are pointless, but, given they are meant to be a real moment of change for aes sedai the impact of them on the 2 characters seems significantly underwhelming compared to anything else that happens to them in the books. 
 

So am I mis remembering or Mis understanding, is there some moment later on in the books where you can draw a direct line between a decision made and the experience in the arches? Or do they just leave far more questions then answers that never get paid off? 
 

This question is not about of the scene should be in the tv show or not. It is specifically about the books and if we feel it has a long term story impact. I may post in the TV forum about these potential

scenes based on other people’s opinion. 

1 hour ago, A Memory Of Why said:

But how many times are the girls going to get kidnapped

 

I think it's three times in those books, I'm guessing just once with Eggy and the Seanchan, that seems to important to skip

 

Which means we'll miss the Aiel saving them and Nyn accidentally Balefiring them.

 

 

 

Matt will probably save them in Falme which covers him being a hero against impossible odds and his better judgement.

 

 

 

I'm thinking Rand will end up in Tear and his fight with Balsy will merge to the sky vision, apparently that will be good enough for the heroes of the horn.

 

 

 

We're.. we're not getting the flicker scenes are we..?

 

 

 

Sigh.. I'm hoping for the best here but I'm dreading Amazon isn't committed and next thing you know they're going to try and convince us through cleansing s the last battle 😢

 

Edit.. mods, I do not know what is happening with the paragraph spacing here. I've attempted to fix it but.. it's not liking me. If you could do me a kind favour and get rid of the unnecessary gaps I'd appreciate it.

I see Egwene and Nyn returning to the tower, leaving it once (to go to falme) and post falme learning the black sisters have gone to Tear. 
 

I hope we see them get taken by the Mydrahl, that scene is one I wanted to see on TV it is a great early introduction to the Aiel, and will look great on TV. 
 

I then see season 3 potentially ending with them being captured and taken to tear. You can then set up season 3 with a cliffhanger Matt and Rand looking at the tower from different angles the girls imprisoned and no sense as to how they will be rescued. That then feeds nicely into season 3, taking tear is an episode. Alternatively you have tear taken at the very end of season 2. Either way I think that will be the fight where Rand sheathes the sword and not falme. We don’t need to see that battle twice, just as we don’t need to see the girls go back and forth to tar Valon multiple times. Both girls could be made accepted at the same time without affecting what is really still the early intro story too much. I also don’t know if cutting the accepted ceremony would be awful, in the grand scheme of things as cool as it would look you don’t gain much from it. It doesn’t really come up much later in the books in terms of being a motivating force for either character. 

6 hours ago, WTES said:

True, but given that Randland is Earth in another Age (link, item 40), the question naturally arises: how can we reconcile our current understanding of the Sun with the way it behaves in WOT? My theory assumes that our laws of physics are incomplete and the metaphysics of WOT represents the actual nature of reality. Positing the existence of a time series of universes, in which no universe lasts long enough for the Sun to end its main sequence phase, can then account for this discrepancy.

Also true, but as with the Sun, this is merely an open question that motivated the development of my theory, not a premise of my theory itself.

What are your sources for these claims? There’s ample evidence that WOD is present throughout the Pattern (the in-world term for “universe”), e.g., Verin’s explanation of TAR that I cite in my essay (TDR 21) and Egwene's thoughts about other worlds on an occasion when she's floating in the Gap of Infinity (LOC 14). Neither the stedding nor Sindhol are accessible from TAR (link, item 20), which implies they’re not part of the Pattern. Therefore, they must belong to other universes, or Parallel Worlds in WOT-speak (not to be confused with Mirror Worlds, which are part of the Pattern as argued in the Theoryland research article that my essay cites).

 

The remainder of your post boils down to the following rebuttal, which misunderstands my intentions:

I mentioned a couple of real-life physics theories only as suggested further reading in case people find my ideas interesting. I’ve based my argument solely on verifiable facts about how the WOT universe works and extrapolated from the books’ internal logic in an attempt to resolve some of its associated paradoxes. There’s nothing wrong with your stated preference for handwaving away those paradoxes, but considering the remarkable sophistication of Robert Jordan’s metaphysics, I think it’s also perfectly valid to theorize about his world using an approach that reflects the level of care he put into creating it.

RJ stated in interview and at conventions that this is not “our” earth. It is a version of it in a different universe, where as I say the heat death of the universe is not a thing. The sun won’t die and neither will the universe. I believe any theory must take the authors own statements about his universe on board. your sumation that the universe would die before the sun goes in direct opposition to RJ’s own metaphysics. 
 

You also seem to be assuming that humans are the only intelligent creatures in the known universe. That is a valid idea to have about the wot universe, but, the fact the Ogier have the book of translation and the fact that what little has been written of this gives the possibility that Ogier have travelled from another planet in the same universe as opposed to another universe is something that has to be taken into account of any theory. So if your assumption is that the Ogier have come from another universe are you suggesting the WOT universe contains no other intelligent life anywhere within it? 
 

I make the assumption that the world of dreams is limited to Randland because we have seen nothing to suggest otherwise. No one travels to the moon or Mars for instance within it, something that in theory would be possible with a thought. However I agree mine is an assumption based on lack of anything to oppose it. The fact however that Stedding are not accessible in TAR does back up the theory that TAR is planet limited, if we consider that Stedding somehow recreate the conditions of the Ogier home world and in some way stop the one power. 
 

In fact the Ogier and the Finn could be considered opposite ends of the same thread. The Finn feed on those who channel, Ogiers home restricts and stops the use of the one power. If a species was a known hunter of those who channel then the ability to nullify it would be a great defense to stop it being detected. That is a new thought of mine right now and needs some thought. 
 

The Finn again we don’t know enough about so can only surmise and guess as to the origin, but, the fact they have so much knowledge of the universe and the pattern does strongly suggest that they come from within the same universe. But, no where is the pattern defined as laying across the whole universe. We don’t see any evidence of non human souls existing in it, in fact we don’t know that Ogier reside in or are part of the pattern. They state that in order for the 4th age to start they must return home, meaning leaving the whole world. This suggests they are outside the pattern which would then suggest the pattern is not universe wide. (If you go with the theory the Ogier are not from a different universe). 
 

If the creator trapped the dark one in a prison, and that prison is meant to keep him kept away from the universe, then it is also a possibility that the “prison” is not in fact just the bore, but the whole planet and every soul that exists on it. A mechanism to allow the rest of the universe to proceed unaffected. The dragon and the 7 age cycle simply a way of ensuring the universe evolves as it should. The tapestry laying over only the planet earth with souls picked by the creator weaved into it at the start of time. 
 

I do love these debates and fully accept that neither of us will ever be proven wrong or right. But I do think the facts laid out by RJ concerning the sun and universe have to be taken as given lore and built into any theory. We also have to realize that any in universe explanation is always given by an unreliable narrator so can never be taken as fact RJ purposely had his characters get things wrong about the world.