20 hours ago, Guire said:

He probably hasnt changed it but he gave a strong impression the cause was arrogant men seeking power vs a counterstroke by DO to a semi successful desperate attempt to save the world.

I mean this matches the books pretty closely. Rand states several times once he has Lewis Therins memories that Lewis failed because the male and female channelers didn’t work together. He also states that this was, in part, due to Lewis therins own arrogance. The scenes we have seen so far don’t show men seeking power, it shows Lewis Therin insisting he is right and taking the world down a path of destruction. 
 

Narratively this is going to work well as it mirrors the very similar journey Rand takes in the middle. Becoming more and more arrogant, convinced he is right. From a story perspective they can show the similarities between the 2 leading the (non book watching audience), to feel that tension as they see Rand making similar mistakes leading, as they see it, to a repeat of the breaking. 

On 8/16/2023 at 9:14 PM, Durinax said:

Would that make him Longtooth in this iteration? May be the only reference to Elyas we get.

If they don’t include elyas properly then Rafe is missing the point of the key part of Perrin journey. 
 

Perrin meets 2 wolf brothers in the story. 
One he thinks has lost himself to the wolf dream, the other he thinks has kept his sanity by not going full wolf. Hopper shows him instead that what both men are showing him is choice. 
 

Noam chooses to go feral so he can escape the reality of his life. He doesn’t lose himself to the wolf he gives himself willingly. 
 

Elyas chooses to remain a man, he chooses not to fully embrace that wolf side that lets him hunt and exist in the world of dreams. 
 

Rafe has to include both Elyas and Noam to really help to show the audience the truth that Perrin comes to accept, the truth that lets him then let go and truly embrace the wolf nature as he needs to win his key fight at the last battle. 

8 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The supposed love triangle referenced here never actually existed. Nynaeve's conclusion was flat-out baseless and wrong, but a lot of the WoT fandom - both book readers and show-only viewers alike - somehow missed that key detail and took her outburst as gospel truth.

I know it never happened, hence pseudo, but the fact is in the book there is never any constructed drama between Perrin Egwene and Rand, for me it added nothing. It was also badly scripted and the acting wasn’t much better. It felt more like a CW show than high fantasy. 
 

I am in no way saying it was all bad but, I think we need to be honest that bit of writing was indicative of the main issue. I am fine with the changes that were made, to lord, plot and characters largely. For me, having just rewatched it, the biggest issue is how bad some of the acting and dialogue was and for me this whole scene including Rand “storming off” just felt very contrived. 

On 8/15/2023 at 10:06 PM, SBroc said:

I personally can get past all of the changes if the relationships between the 5 "E. Fielders"  felt like they were more developed.  The bonds between them all really seemed to come into play in the books.  They could count on each other when they really needed to trust someone and be accepted for who they were.  Rand and Mat and their trip to the Aiel.  Rand and Nyn working the power together.  Eg. and Nyn fighting basically every sister and supporting each other. 

 

I am hopeful this can all be changed in season 2.  Also not sure how much switching the actor playing Mat changed things. And the lack of more episodes. 

 

My husband (who has not read the books) watched with me and didn't understand why he should care about any of the 5 characters cause they didn't seem developed but he loved the warder funeral scene/episode because it felt like the relationships were developed more with Lan and Moraine

You are talking about relationships we see later on in the series. Nothing was wrong with how the relationships were portrayed in season 1, other than the pseudo love triangle. They matched the books fairly closely, Egwene and Perrin travelled together, Mat was under the effect of the knife, Nyn and Morraine etc. not sure what for you was different from book 1, other then like I say the love triangle. 
 

Really the relationships you talk about don’t really happen in the books until book 4. Books 1,2 and 3 I like to call the backpacking guide to Randland, they stories of all 3 are basically the characters going from point A to point B chasing after something. There is some but not loads of character growth and the relationships start forming, RJ starts to fond mats voice especially in book 3. In fact I have long felt that in books 1-3 RJ really had no idea how he wanted to write his story or the voices he wanted his characters to have. 

On 8/16/2023 at 8:22 PM, DojoToad said:

See what you mean.  I'm more frustrated because of the broken promises (self-imposed) on when the book was coming out.  He doesn't owe me anything, but do what you say you'll do.

 

As far as starting a series that isn't finished, never would have crossed my mind not to until GRRM.  So this 'rule' only applies to him for me.  I'll buy 'Winds' when it comes out - I already have the first 5.  And then just pray he or a proxy gets book 7 done.  Then I can contentedly read the whole series again.

 

We'll see.  Life is what it is.

We are assuming it will be over by 7 lol. I can see it being another WOT, book 7 becomes 8,9,10 and onwards. 

On 8/16/2023 at 7:07 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Lol. 

 

Either way it's a book... a story, and Time is valuable. I can think of worse things to waste time on then reading a book in a series that hasn't ended yet.

Not every story has a conclusion, and that's honestly just a part of life. I honestly believe the idea that not starting a series because it isn't finished is foolish. But, that's your time, not mine. 😉 

As an anecdote, I was one of four players in a homebrew game of D&D. The DM crafted his own unique world over ~25 years, and he had a story for us.

 

Around the mid-point of our Journey, and just before starting a big clash with the BBEG, our DM unexpectedly died.

 

The story ended; His family gave us all his D&D stuff; And there wasn't a single note written down. Nothing on the upcoming encounters, no statblocks, no plotlines. Nothing. It was all in his twisted head; his story ended, and new stories began in others.
 

Time is valuable, spend it wisely... 

for me starting a book series that will never finish is wasted time. I think for me as well just how long it is taking GRR Martin to write new books is massively off putting. When it comes to a story I want there to be an end, DnD is a different thing, I go into that knowing it is open ended and knowing that it could end at any point. I am the same with tv series, if I know that it has been cancelled and never reached a conclusion I will never watch it regardless of how good people might say it is. 

18 hours ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

 

 

Oh, I am not criticizing Jordan's writing.  I personally don't care for Rand much, which amongst my own friend group is an unpopular opinion.  The fact that he never cared to actually learn Aiel custom from Aviendha irked me.  I know he had a lot going on, but there were periods of time he's just traveling with her and not taking any of it. That just seems disrespectful.  So yes, Jordan did elicit emotion from me, hah.  

Rand tried to learn, but, you are trying to force so much learning into one person in such a short space of time, everything’s about the Aiel, the politics of the wetlands etc combined with Rand becoming more and more fatalistic slipping into despair. 
 

Also Rand knew he was destined to break the Aiel, so why learn things that either would ever again be relevant, or that he would be dead and not need anyway. 

Rand’s behavior makes perfect sense to me, and is explained in the books. let’s look at the reality of the situation here. 
 

Rand’s initial concerns about Taim came largely from the voice of a mad man in his own head, a voice that he was afraid would make him act irrationally. Taim was a tool, as where all the Ashaman, while the taint existed Rand didn’t need to worry about the future of the black tower, he simply needed weapons for now, any strange behavior by ashaman could also be put down to the madness that Rand himself was feeling. 
 

Then Rand cleans the taint and at the same time Logain joins the black tower. At that point in Rand’s head having 2 competing leaders will make any uprising by the whole tower unlikely, but he is also heading into the depths of despair that the dark lord has set him on. He is not thinking straight and also, has an entire nation to bring together? The Seanchan to fight and other things going on like killing forsaken. Events that in the book take a few pages are, remember, weeks and months of time in story. He has to prioritize and, at that point, he isn’t aware that channelers can be forced to turn. So if Taim is a bad apple then Logain will control him and the entire tower will support the dragon. 
 

Then Rand figures out something bad is happening, but, the dream shard is up and he realises it is a trap. Cadusane advises him against going, and he agrees, correctly. But, he also needs to fix everything else he has messed up while he was mad Rand. He accepts, with reluctance, that the Ashaman in the tower are going to need to sort out their own future. But, he also realises that this is a good thing. They need to break free of the idea that they depend on him for protection and existence because he will cease to be around afterwards. 
 

If he had fixated on the tower he would have lost the world and possibly not sorted the Seanchan issue in the way he did. He also may not have found that peace he needed to on the top of Dragonmount. 
 

No Rand didn’t frustrate me at all, Perrin on the other hand took far too long between knowing there was a traveling issue at the tower and then going and doing anything about it. That for me was Sanderson trying to create artificial tension at the black tower in a way Jordan would never have done and as a result the writing feels a bit shonky. 

I was 14 and looking for books to take on a family holiday. I had just finished the Thomas Covenant series for the 3rd time and was looking for a new book series. I read the title dragon reborn, and then saw I think it was lord of chaos had a flying dragon looking thing so thought it was a series similar to dragon lance (which I loved). 
 

Got the first 6 books, started reading eye of the world and struggled. It felt like a rip off of lord of the rings, which at that point I read twice a year every year having finished the series when I was 11. I found it hard to see past that comparison. 
 

Then on holiday I found alcohol and clubbing for the first time (we Brits start early lol), falling in with a group of teenagers a similar age, our parents would all hang out together in the evening in one bar and we would all be across the road in another. So reading went to the back of the line lol. 
 

it took me another year or so to pick Eye of the world back up, start over and make myself get all the way through it. At some point I enjoyed it more but I will be honest and say that books 1 and 2 for me just felt very meh, it wasn’t until the taking of tear and then the visions of Rhuidean that I was really grabbed by the series. I think this is also where Robert Jordan found his voice. And then I realised that the series wasn’t over lol. 
 

Eye of the world still does feel like a copy of Fellowship to me, but I can also see large similarities to the Thomas Covenant books, the similarities between Lord Foul and the dark lord, both in aims and in the ways they corrupt. The Giants and the Ogier and the hero trying to work out how to use his wild magic as he travels through the land. 

I have since read the series end to end 5 times and have read the individual books far more. I recently re read the Sanderson trilogy 3 times back to back. much like lord of the rings where I reached a point of being able to get through each book in 2 days, I can do the same with WOT, on a recent read through eye of the world took me a day and a half to read. 
 

But one thing it was taught me, never again will I ever start a series written by a single

author before the whole series has been finished, especially if that author is old or unwell or if the series looks like it will span more then a trilogy. 

On 8/15/2023 at 8:56 AM, Patrick91 said:

On August 2, 2023 I've finally finished the wheel of time books after five months it was breathtaking.

How did you find the final 3 books?

4 hours ago, nsmallw said:

It seems that in condensing the books to tv, you can remove wholesale  Crossroads of Twilight from the equation. If they did choose to do that are there any threads in that book that Rafe could utilize ?

Aside from the Perrin story where he finally gives up the axe and creates his power wrought hammer would be awesome to see, what other parts of COT would be cool on TV ?

Perrin has already long given up the axe by this point, he gives up one hammer to make a new one. 

3 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Mat always struck me as a character who didn’t want to be a “hero” and told himself that he had no interest in the whole and was just trying to look out for number one. But if you forgive me for the cliche, actions speak louder than words. He wasn’t comfortable with seeing himself as a “hero” or humanitarian, yet one way or another he found himself reluctantly in that role. What I gained from this is that, this character isn’t consciously trying to do the “right thing “ and therefore can’t possibly make decisions that are consistently considered “perfectly and selflessly” informed, but when it comes down to it, he did almost always act (admittedly reluctantly) in ways that contradict his own beliefs and attempts to convince himself otherwise. Additionally the fact that he doesn’t want to be and isn’t trying to be a hero or savior yet is anyway is IMO the best evidence that he is genuinely and authentically exactly that. The best and most suitable leader is typically someone who has no desire to take on that role. 

Egwene makes a comment right when Mat tells her Gareth is tanking the battle, where she tells a story about Mat. I don’t have the book to hand and am trying to remember it but Years ago a child had fallen into the river and I think pretended to be drowning or was not in real difficulty, Mat had dived in to save them and then been laughed at for doing so. As he had walked off he had made a comment about “save your bloody selves next time then I won’t do it.” A year later however another child was in the same predicament and Mat again dived in and this time did save the child from dying. 
 

as she says Mat can be insufferable, refuse to accept responsibility, be stubborn and wool headed but, he always does the right thing and always thinks of, looks out for and protects others. 
 

Mat never wanted to be a hero, never wanted to put himself in danger, but, when needed he always did the right thing, that just wasn’t always the thing others thought he should do in that moment, but always turns out to be the right choice long term. 

38 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I was wondering if that was the closest we’re going to get to the Gaul character 

Rafe said in season 1 that this was not Gaul on being asked, 

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Oh light, that reminds me of.. Crossroads of Twilight? 
Every single chapter talking about that event from their perspective was just.. oof. 
Waiting 3 years for that book was just. ouch.

Oh yes I know what you mean, I mean, I get it needed to be shown how everyone saw it but really we get it already. Also by anchoring everything that hard to the timeline it led to the longer term issue of that thing happening with Rand and his dad taking place I think 2 books before rands dad actually left Perrin. 

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Are they though? Don't forget that RJ was a Freemason. That has it's own religious and non-religious and political aspects... and apparently the novels are chock full of references if you know where to look...

he was also a high church Episcopalian and received communion more than once a week, that to me supersedes people reading freemasonry into his writings, yet he didn't put that Christianity front and centre into his writing as far as I can see, yes people make the connection between Rand and Jesus, but to me Rand is much like the hero's of many fantasy series so I think that is stretching things. The creator has no real impact in the world he made (until Brandon got involved), and the religious views of Rand land are pretty agnostic if not athiest generally. 

Yes anyone can dive in and try and find the Masonic links to the WOT, but again these are subtle and can also be taken as standard or altered fantasy tropes. Ogier masons are almost lifted from the Giants of the Thomas Covenant books, or they both have the same origins in myth for instance. 

 

23 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Drawn out over several books.  But think I get your point and @Sir_Charrid's

I mean it is a side effect of this kind of storytelling. Lord of the rings in some ways is easier to read because you are not constantly jumping from one POV to another. You stick for a period of time with one story thread, and then switch to another. I feel RJ could have done more if this, for one thing he gets himself into a bind with the whole issue of having Rand meet his dad long before the other story elements have caught up to that point. He could have directed the story at Ebou Dar and told that in one solid chunk of writing, then shifted to the Rand POV at the same time. This might have meant that each book focused on one or 2 main characters, but that lack of feeling like you have to catch the reader up every time you return to a story would mean for saved pages, as would the reader not having to context switch from story to story. 

28 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's hard to say how RJ would have written the series had he written them today, instead of in the 90s. 

He'd have been 75, and while Harriet is pretty inclusive for her age, I feel he was probably the more socially conservative one in that relationship. 

I dread an alternate timeline where RJ finished the books and took to Twitter, and made his politics known in 2016.

Ok now I have nightmares of a JK Rowling situation here. 

The one thing I will say is that for me RJ's personal religious feelings are largely kept out of the WOT, in fact one of the things I dislike about the Brandon Trilogy, as I am starting to call them, is that he does inject his own religious feelings into it, the Creator takes a far more central role in discussions and it just feels like he put's too much emphasis on those elements when throughout the rest of the series the people of WOT are largely agnostic. I might be over thinking but it is one of the changes of flavour that mean I am not as into the last 3 books. 

19 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes - see below...

 

Then it is

 

You explained perfectly why it was too long.  Thank you.

My argument however is that if you remove the repetition and put those chapters in linear order the story of the bowl of the winds is clear, concise and moves pretty quickly through the arc. 

I think conflating a writing style and saying it makes a part of the story pointless or unnecessary to the whole is a mistake, all the events in the search for the bowl of the winds have impacts later on beyond actually finding the bowl, the bowl acts as the Mcguffin for that part of the wider story, but the story told around it is more important then the actual bowl of the winds. but without the bowl none of that bit of the story would happen. No reason to go to Ebou Dar, no meeting the kin etc. 

On 8/8/2023 at 1:43 PM, Elglin said:

There have been suggestions that we may see a certain Elyas this season. As I've written in a different thread, the fact that Aviendha was shown alongside Bain and Chiad and we see her in the trailer in the Perrin context, she still may well be taking over Gaul's role in TDR. Of course, Gaul and Aviendha go very different ways in TSR. However, while Gaul is (minor spoiler alert) pretty important throughout the books, both Bain and Chiad - not so much; it is well possible that his role will be eventually split between these two.

I wouldn't hold my breath for Faile in S2 and Tear at all. The showrunner team has indicated that they are largely amalgamating the plots of TGH and TDR, so Falme might be the only Tear we are going to see.

Bain and Chiad do have an important role in the books, they are to Gaul what Faile is to Perrin and we see that whole situation mirrored in some way through them. It also helps the reader understand about Aiel sister wives and the intricacies of that whole situation which then helps understand Avihenda, Min and Elaynes relationship to Rand. 

Also when they get kidnapped Gaul has that drive alongside Perrin to save them.  

On 8/13/2023 at 6:42 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

I wasn't complaining, though.

 

Also, I found the article where Rafe mentioned the de-gendering of souls, and said article also contains a direct reference to the potentiality of female Dragons.

https://gizmodo.com/adapting-the-wheel-of-time-for-tv-is-an-epic-all-its-ow-1848026456

Ok thanks, had not seen that before. There are 2 points for me here. 

First this interview was taken just before season 1 dropped, a key aspect of season one is the "who is the dragon" arc. If 9 days before Rafe had come out and said, "oh a male soul is always male", that instantly undoes that whole plot point. 

But, I also think there is a lot of truth to what Rafe says about Robert Jordan challenging gender roles in fantasy in the 90's and keeping that feeling and sense moving forward. WOT is not just about the story on the page, it is about what RJ was trying to do in general fantasy fiction. Putting female characters front and centre to the story. It makes perfect sense that now, 30 years later, we shift that more to embody something more flexible and bring it up to date with modern thinking, because, if RJ was writing wheel of time now, going by what he was trying to do in the 90's, then you would have a far more diverse and outwardly gender fluid cast of characters in the books. 

It is not just making an adaptation of the books, it is keeping the same essence of what RJ believed in as a person when it came to writing regarding inclusivity. 

On 8/13/2023 at 1:55 PM, SinisterDeath said:

We only got a snippit of the Tinkers culture in the show, and I don't recall if they went all in on the "gypsy/roma" side of it; E.g. where the Tinkers would be run out of towns for "stealing" anything not nailed down, including their youth... (There's been a lot of push back about showing that specific group of real-world people like that these days, and it can be a touchy subject.)

 

But largely even in the books the "They are peaceful, except for the violent men" is largely book accurate. (see rhuidean chapters)

 

Books vs Show, Books women (except Aiel) were less likely to use a blade to kill. They were more likely to use words, and Guile. Men were more likely to use Swords & sling Balefire.

 

In the show, we're seeing women have more action sequences than what we saw in the books, but that's also because in the books we have sequences were a lot of the action was "off screen" and the combat was "inferred" to have happened.

Like I said, I get it. I understand the worry that they'll push all the negative onto the male characters. All we can do is WAFO. Right now, a lot of this *waves hands around* is just speculating, and then getting worked up over that speculation.

At the last battle even the Tinkers are starting to shift that world view, accepting that while they themselves will never pick up a weapon, it is only thanks to the sacrifice made by those that do that they are able to exist and live there own way of life. This is a significant shift in the tinker philophosy that violence might be acceptable in the right circumstance by those who do not follow the way. 

On 8/13/2023 at 2:49 AM, Guire said:

I think this is all central to why I currently don't like the corrective adaptation trend.  I think it is better to use original IP that incorporates an author's desired worldview.  It can be baked into the story and feel more organic and fine tuned.  Taking an IP with beloved characters and shoe horning in the desired message gets ham fisted really quickly.  Outside of the story concerns just adds layer on layer of complexity.  

 

A written to visual medium adaptation is tough.  Add on making story more gender equal, more  prefered diverse, having limitations on location because Amazon wants tax breaks and to build a giant studio, a marketing campaign that courts book fans while taunting fans that want a different story, having writers that only like parts of a massive complex story, unexpected global pandemic, Amazon having tightly specific parameters for marketing and story telling.  Looking at other current big entertainment projects, I think Rafe and co look like champions.  But if HBO had made WoT with intent on telling Jordan's story ( warts and all) this would be the big fantasy out now without any asterics or disputes.

Except that that world view changes as society changes. 

The fact is that if Robert Jordan where writing the WOT now there would be changes, some significant, to how he wrote his characters, some of this would be from him, others would be editorial in nature with a publisher requesting changes be made. There would be a lot less heaving bossoms, a lot less referencing to pretty women and ugly women in the objective way Mat does. I would argue the lore point of souls being gender specific would change given how society has moved and how RJ was already ahead of the curve in "some" of the ways he wrote women, and I think you would have far more overt same sex relationships, something RJ was happy putting in his writing, but was also aware that in the 90's it was still a taboo in mainstream print media and especially in fantasy. 

Rafe making changes to bring the book series up to those modern viewpoints is doing only what RJ himself would no doubt have done, and there is precedence for this. The recent Sandman Adaptation the original author made changes to make it fit the modern world in ways he couldn't the original work. Now RJ is not with us but going from what we know about his world view and how he tried to push female empowerment in Fantasy in the WOT, as clumsily as he pulled that off, I think it is a fair assumption to think that he would have made changes to the TV show to make it fit this generation of fantasy viewers. 

On 8/12/2023 at 10:37 PM, DojoToad said:

Jordan took too long with Bowl of the Winds.  Hopefully the show improves on that arc...

I mean did he, it feels like it but that is largely the disjointed style of writing, jumping from storyline to storyline with long gaps between, and the fact that in those books where they are hunting the bowl RJ was at his most repetitive, insisting on telling the reader again things he had already detailed out the last time he returned there.

in reality the hunt for the bowls is rather straightforward but involves some really key story moments. 

The girls realise there is an item they need to find in ebou dar they then decide they need to go and trick/convince Mat to go with them. 
Ebou Dar is described, Mat ends up in the palace and that whole storyline happens (wonder if they will show a women raping a man in the TV show, although it worked in Bridgerton), the girls have a bit of a scout around and find out a little about wilders being in the city. You also get real interaction between Aes Sedai of both factions. And Elayne and Nynaeve have a real moment. Nynaeve also loses her block. 

They finally utilise Mat, the whole apology thing and the start of an understanding between them and Mat that feeds into later on, the forging of the dragons, and Elayne trusting him to run the last battle. 
The introduction of the Gholam. 
Finally folding the Kin into the group, picking up the Sea Folk and leaving Ebou Dar, Mat being stuck behind leading to that storyline. 
Fixing the weather which then directly leads to Rand losing control of Callandor and starting him on his dark phoenix/black suit superman/blacksuit Spiderman path. 

In reality the whole story is told over the course of not many chapters, but, because it is spread out over 3 books and keeps getting interrupted by other storylines it doesn't flow anywhere near as well. The Perrin Faile Kidnap arc has the same issues, it is punchy and makes sense if you take all the other paragraphs of other story away. 

I can see the bowl being included and Tanchio being removed or at least seriously condensed as to me that whole section really adds nothing to the series that can't be introduced in other ways, you don't need to be in a tanchio circus to have Bridgette saved for instance. 
 

14 hours ago, Guire said:

Its a weird situation created by this adaptation.  I think i would need the xray shorts and some additional outside info too appreciate and understand show.  However my book knowledge makes me dislike many of the adaptation choices because I disagree with so many of the choices.  An example is Stepin and Karenne arc.  I loved those 2 characters because they embodied lots of the things I loved about book characters.  At same time I was pissed because their arc felt overdone and took time away from character development of main characters.  Elyas could have given us lots of same info about warder bond while developing Perrin, Egwene, Tinker arc IMHO in a more entertaining way.

But, and this is the key thing, anyone else telling about the bond (Elyas, Lan, etc) means a long bit of exposition where they are telling another character stuff, That never sinks in with an audience, it would have gone over non book viewers heads and been lost to the ether. 

By showing the impact losing his Aes Sedai had on Steppin you really impact on the audience what that means to Lan later on. They have seen one Warder kill himself, what is Lan going to do. Likewise, and it is a point so many seem to ignore or forget, at the last battle the Bond is a key part of Moridins plan to get Rand to destroy the wheel of time. That rush against time Nyn trying to save Alanna so she can drop the bond, is really badly written in the books, but will translate well on screen, but only if the viewer is invested in what it means to Rand if Alanna dies. 

Show don't tell is a really key thing in tv and movie storytelling, if you tell to much then your product becomes the first suicide squad movie, full of long drawn out speeches about characters backgrounds and motivations. If you do the Show part then it is more like it's far superior sequel. 

I don't think not reading the books would have impacted how much I enjoyed it. It had it's issues, many of us can accept it is in no way a perfect fantasy TV show, but, I always gave it the benefit of the doubt due to Covid. My wife, Neighbours and many friends have never read the books and they Loved it, especially the "who is the dragon" debate through the early episodes. Rafe managed to pull that off well, at least amongst the people I knew.