11 hours ago, Godoggo said:

you are totally missing the rule set up in the show.  Of course, damane can use weapons.  They are taught to be a weapon.  The rule in the show is that they can't use anything that they think of as a weapon against their suldam.  That would include the collar of course being used as a weapon against her suldam, especially since she had worked out that her suldam had to be able to channel.  There is no way that Egwene wouldn't have thought of the collar as a weapon as it was used as a weapon to torture her.  

Actually no, Damane can't use anything that is deemed a weapon, and cant use Anything as a weapon against anyone the Sul Damane stops, otherwise as I said before Damane could just kill each others Sul Damane, or commit mutual suicide, or one Damane could go nuts and kill a load of Seanchan, or even the Empress. 

Egwene stating, I didn't know if that would work" alongside Renas saying "Fool the collar has no effect on a women that cannot channel" or words to that effect proves that Egwene had not thought beyond the next step, she didnt think, I will do the collar and then kill her, she reacted in the moment without really thinking about what came next, she can't have thought about what came next she hadn't pre-empted any of it. The tower was destroyed, Renna blamed her claiming she had done it, attacked her and Egwene reached out for the first thing she could see. 

Tell me then HOW the collar in that instance is a "weapon"? At best it is a pair of handcuffs, or a lasso to catch a wild animal and I will go back again to the fact that if she cant collar the Sul Damane, then that is a pretty big loophole in how the collar works, you can collar anyone Except a sul damane? 

10 hours ago, Yamezt said:

 

How to be an Amyrlin - namely Tower Law and understanding politics in the Hall. I guess the role could be also given to Leane if they decide to only keep 1 actress, but Siuan would be the better option

plus, Rafe has said that the White Tower is his fav bit of the books, and, (tongue firmly in cheek here), he apparently loves to make women the centre of the universe, so how is he going to resist the story of the Amyrlin who is stilled and still helps to bring down the tower. It makes no sense to remove her story now the "Moraine will be Siuan" theorists have been proven wrong. 

8 hours ago, megalomax said:

The departure from the books didn't make me want to finish each epsiode. I spent time skipping stuff. I understand that total adaptation isn't possible considering the length of each book and a dozen or so books in total. But they botched up a lot of things. Same sentiment, I don't think I'll watch s3. 

Season 3 will track closely to book 4, the writers had to get all of books 1-3 into 2 seasons. 

8 hours ago, megalomax said:

Didn't Moiraine leave a token to each of them? Something she could trace as long as the token was in the possession of the person. She gave one (silver tar valon mark) to Rand, Mat and Perrin. I can't remember in s1 if an episode showcased that. I may have to skim the earlier episodes. 

No that was in the books, there was no such thing in the TV show, And in the books Rand and Mat get rid of theirs. 

34 minutes ago, Guire said:

I agree with most of this.  It is hard for me to forget characters later development and place them at a point in time in books.  I dont think we are going to see any change from Amazon and showrunners approach.  Time constraint and centering Moraine has created a situation where telling a great version of this story will get harder and harder. It will be fine to good single watch TV.  A segment of audience that really loves certain aspects of way show is made will love it.  But it isnt going to rise to great TV.  Besides some great character work and acting the story flaws get worse the more you watch it. The highs show how good it could have been but Amazon and writers cant get out of their own way. 

Moiraine is no longer the centre of the TV show, she wasn't through season 2, hers was an ancillary story and not part of the main except for 2 episodes where she was alongside Rand. Season 3 will probably bring her a bit more into the story, but in the books RJ gave her a bit more prominence as is usual for a character who is about to go away for a long while. 

59 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This and the plot hole with the dagger is why it’s just best to treat 108 like it never happened. 
 

Aside from that episode, the show holds up quite well. 

I mean the episode is ok if you just ignore these 2 things rather than the whole episode. 

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

But written scene doesn't matter. We may argue Rand destroyed trollocs because RJ originally wrote this ending pre-show, but in show canon Egwene heals "crispy" Nynaeve with One Power, not herbs.

 

Also if Nyn was just one step from death it's still probably biggest example of healing aside from Nyn's healing of madness and stilling or combined efforts from Asha'man and Aes Sedai to heal Rand

Sorry I chose my words poorly, yes, the scene is bad, Rafe has accepted the scene is bad, you know what when a writer holds his hands up and says “we got that wrong? This is the reason we got the wrong”, then I am inclined to accept that because mainly, I can’t think of any other tv show ever where a show runner has done this. 

3 hours ago, Elendir said:

Reading discussions, I am starting to think, that I am part of very small group of people, who think that Rand channeling was his secondary power. I see his primary power elsewhere.

 

When Rand traveled and interact with people, he bound them to his cause. Min, Guy with carriage outside Caemlyn, Loial, Elayne, Ingtar and Hurin, Lan who was alofe to him at first, ..., Siswai'amans ... That was his primary power.

 

TV show Rand, who don't interact with Min, Tom, Loial, Ingtar.... That is his real depowering and it is total so far. And it has its impact on story logick either, because without their relations to Rand, they lack of motivation in show.

For most of books 1,2 and 3 Rand doesn't really interact with many people. Book 1 he and Matt are split off, or he is hiding behind Moiraine, 

Book 2 he is travelling with lanfer in an alternate universe for parts of the story, although he does get some leadership experience. 

Book 3 he goes lone bandit across rand land and doesn't really talk to anyone other then to kill them. 

So show rand at this point is probably in about the same place as book rand fro that respect. 

4 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Yeah, it's less about girl, more like about Egwene. She saved herself, even though she shouldn't have, clearly showing character can be self-sufficient and doesn't need any outside help. But than Rand can't get season climax on his own, he needs big strong Egwene to save him. But i'm sure that isn't playing favorites, Rand just doesn't need to be center of story, right? 6 more seasons to go, lol.

 

That's not exactly Rand's moment, more like emphasis on how little agency and progress he had in two seasons. Instead of letting Rand fight, show simply hand-waves storyline. To have Turak and Ingtar to say words from the book and to not have same meaning in scenes like in the book is not following source material. It's more like mocking source material. "This guy is having moral dilemma and trying to redeem himself, lol he just dies not even stalling his enemies". "This guy is stepping stone in hero's path and clear outline of Rand's growth, lol he simply dies like cartoon character".

How was this big strong Egwene saving Rand? She was getting owned by Ishy and almost begged Rand to help her, did people watch the same scene or did Amazon have 2 versions they showed? Everyone was getting owned by Ishy, the moment Rand is unshielded, untrained, un experienced as he is he owns Ishy, deflects everything he throws at him and kills him. Egwene, perrin, matt they where all going to die unless Rand saved them.  

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

her toh scene with the aiel is one of my favourites in the books. it's a great scene overall, and it's significant in the plot. i think it's very likely it will be included

I agree and I think this moment builds into that, after This Egwene resolves to never give in, to fight and deny, finally they Aiel teach her to accept and absorb, it is a good arc from this scene to that one. 

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

it's a pity that this thread got derailed.

 

then again, there's not much else to be said, the first post was great and not much to add.

 

I wonder if using the sword will be even part of rand in the show? I mean, what does change about rand if he never learns the sword? everything he accomplish with the sword, he could do with the power, or could be skipped. even bashere calls him on it, saying learning the sword for him is silly, at best it's a personal pasttime.

the only time rand actually needs the sword is in far madding. which happens in the slog, and so can be cut entirely even according to show detractors 😛. or, even if it was not cut, he could get lan or aviendha or a team of aiel to do the fighting for him. or he could not learn the sword and still learn aiel martial arts.

if rand stopped using the sword entirely in this version of the wheel, I don't think the story would suffer in any way.

 

Thankyou first of all for the comment on my original post

And as we know, if the show follows the books then by season 7 Rand will be pretty much armless 😉 (too soon) and have to learn to fight all over again. 

4 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Egg literally healed almost dead Nynaeve without any training. No COVID is not excuse, they could change by switching Nyn and Egg, by not changing rules of circle or by not taking away Rand's scene.

Rafe confirmed the Eg used natural medicine and not the power here. 

5 minutes ago, Guire said:

How is Emonds Field going to be handled?  We know they rebuilt set for EF in mine pit.  Will we get 3 villages in Two Rivers plus mostly destroyed Taren Ferry?  Where is battle going to take place if at all.  The village from season 1 is almost undefendable without some Rings of Power level cringe.  If only one Two Rivers village who saves them? What chatacters will be present in show? Perrin has good reason not to want to go home while Mat has lots of reason.  Will Avhienda take Gauls place or go to waste with Rand? Tinkers? Slayer? Will Faile play any role if Perrin goes back? If Mat goes back does he have a giant orgy with drunken Coplins and Congars to celebrate his light saber spear🙂

WAFO

3 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Yeah this is one of the scenes were I was laughing. The soldiers enter the beach and see a couple standing on the beach about 1km away from the town that is being attacked. From 500 meters away they start screaming and waving their swords while charging. What? Why? LOL This is like creating a tidal wave to kill a child all over again.

Because sometimes it is just fun to give your characters a fun set piece. people lament that Lan didn't get to fight, and then they complain that Rafe gave him that moment, I mean, he could have just stood there watching Moiraine looking pensive, and then you might have asked "where were the Seanchan" 

We got to see Lan do what we didn't see the Shienrans, the other warder (mental block) or anyone else do, take out a load of Seanchan soldiers fairly easily. 

As for a reason, a patrol of Seanchan saw an armed man, and women, walking on the beach towards the Seanchan held city, I imagine even the lowliest Seanchan soldier knows that Aes Sedai come as a pair (man and women), as we know if they had managed to capture and subdue Moiraine for collaring then they would have never had to work another day in their life, and would probably have been raised in some way, so yeah, that makes sense to me. They came down to see who they where and what they where doing. 

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

He got better book by book. The story is well thought out from beginning to end. I'm very interested to see how directly it will be adapted. It's both simple and very high fantasy.

I mean it's Dragons, in a proper Dragonlance, they can talk style rather then Game of Thrones so that will always go down well. 

If i am honest I will be watching it, my wife loved the books and I did see the core of the good well thought through story, I think his writing style just put me off, I really really dislike Brandon Sandersons books (I know, how dare I) mainly because of his style of writing. I do hope it comes off well and is a good show for those who do love the books. 

Now Dragonlance, that is a series I would love to see on TV, I wonder if it is more likely with the success of the DnD movie. 

23 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

It's a great series.

And there I will doff my cap and make my own way in the world, which I know is not the done thing, you expect me to lambast you and scream for liking something. 

There is a good story there, I think my issue is that the writing is that of a child writing his first real book (which I know he was) and as a result it all feels very, well, lets say shallow. Maybe if the author is involved, he will be adjusting some of the subject matter to make it more adult (not in theme, but in tone and language). 

but then, will he be accused of being Woke and destroying the authors work 🙂 

16 hours ago, Skipp said:

One of my few disappointments in season 2 was the lack of Padan Fain.  I am hoping they will increase his use in season 3.

 

I think they could have Fain go to the TR to try and tempt Mat to come home so he can try and get the dagger back.  If that is true it is probably for the best as his obsession with Rand really didn't go anywhere and having him more directly tied to either Mat or Perrin could open up some interesting story telling.

 

Beyond season 3 speculation

  Reveal hidden contents

Maybe they combine him with the gholam to keep him in Mats orbit.

 

I hope they show why he filled the fade, and how he either hid it from Ishy, or Ishy just let it happen. That whole scene in the farm has been left unresolved and unexplained. 

11 hours ago, Guire said:

Perrins shield he got from Uno Cain.  Does he end up keeping it? I assumed it disappeared when heroes vanished but it appears to be on top of rubble pile in last overhead shot of EF5+Andorinita.  In this turning no Mjolner maybe power shield?

 

Also Moraine's fire wyrm wrecked most of those ships.  It was almost sentient.  After knocking ships it then joined her other weaves to create the dragon.  Not sure if anything in books did that.  possibly some of Rands weaves.

He swapped it for the Horn. 

No idea why that scene of the horn vanishing is bothering me so much lol, as many know I have forgiven most of the things the show has changed lol 

13 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think what we are meant to conclude is that Egwene developed the mental fortitude to train her mind so that she wouldn't think of killing with the collar and was able to stay in that mental fortress while she endured the pain Renna was enduring.

 

Did they pull it off well? Not really. Would a rescue by Elayne and Nyn have been better? Probably. They chose "emotionally satisfying" over logical consistency. In this instance, it worked for me. With the dagger, it did not.

I mean, if anyone bothers thinking about the books, Egwene getting this mental strength is a key thing to what happens later to her. Remember, laughing as she is being switched. I imagine that things like, you know limited time, mean that this moment may well replace her Toh scene wth the Aiel, or more likely that will build on this. 

I imagine when Egwene was collared in TGH Robert Jordan had no idea she would end up being switched and punished in the white tower and need to stay serene and in control. Rafe can now foreshadow back and forth and build things right across the series. 

15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because Rafe ruined everything and hates Robert Jordan and hates his work and thinks he can do better and misandry. Obviously.

And Woke, don't forget that :). 

15 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes, and that thought hinges on premeditation.

 

I can hold a hammer in my hand and think about hammering a nail into a piece of wood.
But the moment I have an intrusive thought about taking that hammer and turning the Sul'dam's head into pulp is the moment that a'dam would slam me into the ground.

If I picked up that hammer with the premeditated thought of taking it and turning the Sul'dam's head into paste, it wouldn't let me.

 

I don't know why no one's willing to entertain the possibility of premeditation? 

I think there is a wider thing here people are missing the point of, Egwene is using the collar for the exact purpose it is designed for, as far as Seanchan are concerned the collar used in this way is not a weapon. Renna does not see it as a weapon, and Egwene, as she collars renna, was not sure if it would work or not. She said herself "I didn't know if I was right" or something. 

The dialogue in the scene explains it all, it seems certain people want to ignore the dialogue and just jump onto shouting "that isn't possible, it could never happen" and ignore the clever buildup that has led to this moment. 

15 hours ago, Godoggo said:

It's not about Murder.  It's about the thought of using an item as a weapon against your Suldam.  Yes, they can use the a'dam against another woman.  But not against your Suldam.  That's the rule.  You can't use anything you perceive as a weapon against your suldam.  Egwene was clearly trying to use an a'dam as a weapon against her suldam.  It's frustrating.  And prime, give them more time for character development.  Mat's change was very quick.  Why the dagger became a light saber and how Mat knew that it would act that way?  Also, how did Loial survive the light saber (admittedly, most of season 1 stunk and maybe we need to conveniently just forget 80% of the first season)

But, if a collar works on a Sul Damane, how is she then actually a Sul Damane, yes she wears the bracelet, but, she is a channeller, an uncollared Channeller at that, are you suggesting the Seanchan should programme safety guards into the collar, they have not, the collar detects she can channel and then does it's thing. 

The Collar is not a weapon, it was not being used as a weapon it was being used as it's purpose. Your logic indicates that Channellers can never collar anyone because doing so involves "using. weapon". 

4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

A series is in the works and Paolini is involved

Please no, that is possibly the worst set of fantasy books I have ever read. I think I was probably far to old when I read them though. That is a TV show that will come across like a CW show made for kids, but pretending to be adult. 

1 hour ago, Averlan said:

I remember, we get Mat early, then we get Mat carrying the Dagger(you know the one i mentioned that destroyed an entire city of light that was a constant fighter against the shadow) and that dagger changed his personality, it would have happened to anyone. The fact that he carried it as long as he did is a testament to his character.

 

But it this version we get a full on character assassination of Mat. You are right that the full blown Mat comes later, but I would say book 3, you know when he got up out of a sick bed after being healed by a full circle of Aes Sedai, and traveled to Tear to save Egwene,Elayne and Nyn from Black Ajah.. but I suppose that doesn't show any strength of character at all...

 

There are things that are going to be changed, you can't put the entire books into a 8 episode series. It is some of the things they choose to keep that surise me, honestly the whole warder episode it doesn't advance the plot at all, and isnt really necessary(in a book its great, in the series it wasn't need(in imo))

 

Noone has to agree with me jsut my opinion, and im not saying the series is terrible, but there are some decisions that jsut do not make sense to me

The warder episode (I guess you mean Steppin), introduces aes sedai politics, it introduces a load of very important characters, it teaches about the bond. The bit people seem to be most upset about there, the Steppin arc, actually uses about 5-6 mins of screen time, not an episode. 

1 hour ago, Averlan said:

 

Moiraine had lost track of Rand, she had lost control of any spies or anyone, she had not planned for a foresaken to be hunting him. So no, she didn’t have “eyes” on him, she assumed she would be able to find him at the mad house. She also would not have wanted to draw any attention that this random 2 rivers boy was special enough to be watched. 
 

Her sister would not have paid any attention to him because he had done nothing to show he was important until he turned up at that party. No one knew he existed. The fact that Moiraine didn’t know where he was proves that your logic is flawed, it proves she didn’t in fact have eyes on him and she didn’t know where he had gone. If he hadn’t gone to the party then her sister would have had no incentive to watch him either.