3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But where are you getting this information from? As I remember it, the books are nowhere near that specific. Certainly not down to how the ter'angreal were created. I do agree that whatever was in RJ's head, it is what is in the books that is the most important. But I do not remember most of what you are stating as fact being mentioned in the books. Am I misremembering?

if it has not been defined in the books, but RJ has the explanation in his head then any information he gives in an interview is canon, it his his world explanation for the things he wrote about. Now, if he writes something and then contradicts that in interview then yes the written word is canon. 

12 hours ago, TravellingIsAGatewayDrug said:

So, after completing the wheel of time series I find myself needing to fill the void it left before my first re-reading.

 

Does anyone have any fantasy series recommendations? Is Earthsea worth reading? Any other older series in the same vein?

 

My only stipulation is that they cannot be LitRPGs or video-game adjacent. That stuff is just too immersion breaking and cringey for me.

The chronicles of Thomas Covenant is a series of 2 trilogies and a final trilogy of 4 books that are just amazing, in my opinion the best fantasy series ever written. The lore and how things tie in to each other are fantastic and the series just improves book to book and trilogy to trilogy. 

You can read the first 6 books and leave the series there happily as well. 

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Is there any particular reason that you hope they are shown, more than simply included? 

 

I understand that many would argue realism, but I think in a work of fiction, realism is not the strongest argument. And for example, why are there not scenes of male homosexual abuse (when there is female homosexual abuse)? Or towards children?

 

I'd argue that this is because such things, while also falling under the realism header, are distasteful to the audience. We don't have to dwell on the morality, as no one is actually being injured. And I would say this raises the question, why does (so much of) the audience not find abuse directed at attractive young women distasteful? And why, in a forum like this, do people seem dismissive of those who do think it is distasteful?

 

Why include something that actively reduces people's enjoyment of the series, and raises reasons for people not to watch/read the story?

 

Lots of questions, but it seems to me that if the men in the story can be (largely) treated without sexual abuse or humiliation, so can the women. And while there maybe some plot points where it would be difficult to avoid, like if Isendre was included, there is no need to revel in it, or to have it toned down as much possible, if not replaced with something less offensive.

I mean I followed up the line you quoted with "Not to GOT levels, maybe cut away or fade to black before the actual act" 

12 hours ago, Yamezt said:

This appeared in one of my feeds today -  it seems like there is a WoT time spinoff animation in the works https://winteriscoming.net/2023/10/19/dc-alum-jay-oliva-direct-animated-the-wheel-of-time-movie-the-white-tower/

 

That puzzled me as it didn't appear to be linked with Amazon.

 

A little internet sleuthing led me to discover that Red Eagle sold the rights to the book series storyline to Amazon but apparently "still have the rights to untold stories in the Wheel of time Universe and timeline". The Cursed Wheel Of Time Movie You Were Never Supposed To See (screenrant.com)

 

Apparently, there were even older news about a 3 part animated Movie about the Age of Legends - but looking at the writers names, it may be that the White Tower is movie 1 of the Age of Legends (which the WT doesn't exist in the AoL, but appeared after the breaking).

 

Not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand I have always felt WoT would have been better told in animation if going on screen. But on the other, I am pretty sure RJ did not want spin offs (unless I misremembered). But then why did he sell the rights in that manner to Red Eagle 2004 when he was live? I guess he could have changed his opinion after the sale of the rights.

 

RJ talked about 2 prequels and a follow on trilogy he had planned (what we know of RJ that trilogy could have been many many many books longer lol) but I think he also made it clear at the end that he did not want others writing stories in his world other then finishing off the series. 

3 hours ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

runtimes of episodes:

 

1: 54 vs 67 (minutes)
2: 57 vs 68
3: 58 vs 69
4: 61 vs 61
5: 60 vs 69
6: 62 vs 70
7: 60 vs 65
8: 57 vs 70

And I'd really love to see the real data from Amazon: instead of an aggregated number (Nielsen) how many people watched the new episode, how many S1E1 and so on per week, did they watch the whole episode, what parts are skipped, what parts are the most replayed etc. We will never know these numbers and things, along with budget etc, naturally.

Once Amamzon start selling advertising space on Prime they will be forced to make all those details public, demo splits, numbers watching each show etc so that advertisers can price the adspace accordingly for bidding. 

13 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Hopefully Rosamund Pike doesn't try to block any kind of nominations for Madeleine Madden on this episode or Zoë Robins a few episodes ago, or even Kate Fleetwood...

Out of left field, everything I had read about Pike as a person is that she is supportive and does not play politics, I don't see her blocking anything for anyone and instead enjoying everyones success. 

12 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

I'm not speaking about people's enjoyment of the show.  I have freely admitted that I do not like it and have no problem with people that do.

 

What you are doing is conflating objective truth to opinion.  

 

Liking the show or not is opinion.  

 

Saying it isn't a good adaptation is objective truth.  This shouldn't be a point of contention.  You may rationalize the changes and may be ok with them, but they still exist and are many.  Change is ok and expected.  Changing main plots and characters to the point where it isn't coherent to the larger narrative is why Amazon's WoT it isn't a good adaptation.  Even if people like the changes.

 

The 1978 Bakshi Lord of the Rings was nearly a 1:1 adaptation of the books dialog wise, but it is extremely mixed if people like it.  Peter Jackson changes way more in his adaptation, but it kept the spirit of the books alive and people consider it one of the best examples of a fantasy adaptation.  

 

Saying the writing is low quality is objective truth.  That really shouldn't be a point of contention either.  In no universe is the writing on this show good.  People may like it, but it isn't good.

 

People need to get past the need to say something is objectively good because they like it.  I like many shows that aren't good writing.  I liked Ready Player One the book.  The writing in that book is objectively not good, but I enjoyed it.  That movie while ok wasn't a good adaptation either though it didn't seem to go out of its way to twist the entire story. 

 

I liked the original dune 1985 movie as well because I was younger and hadn't read the books yet.  Doesn't mean that it wasn't fairly poorly written and very cringe.  It did at least try to stay true to the story if by taking way to many short cuts to fit into a 2+ hour movie.  They freely admit this when they talk about it.  That is why they had the Irulan voice over added to the beginning.  Which seems to be copied by everybody now.  😄

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, you can't say if it is or isn't a good adaptation becaseu you have not seen it, but also I do agree, I mean the WOT books are not always good writing, there is a whole section in the middle (about 3 books) that many on this forum say they can ignore or wish didn't exist, there are those like me who think the opening 3 books are weak. But saying the writing on this show is not good without watching it is just you, taking the opinion of others who have an agenda. 

For instance, there are scenes in season 2 that absolutely deserve award recognition this year, there is acting that is powerful and delicate and emotive and makes certain scenes come alive better then anything in the book, there have been artistic choices made because you know, you cant fit it all into the run time available, and by all means tell me what has been cut or added you don't like. But the fact is that reviews and scritcs have said season 2 is great, and many also liked season 1, so if you want objectivity take that. 

But I will say again, you can't say the writing is low quality, or the show is bad, all you can say is that the what 1/16th you saw you didn't enjoy, you are not an arbiter of what is good or bad writing, none of us on here are really, we all have opinion. My opinion is that watching teh TV show with non book readers the writers got real, visceral reactions and emotion from there viewers about characters, about plot, about things that happen. That is good writing, a show that people enjoy and feel emotions about. I found out yesterday that one scene brought tears to a friends eyes, and then minutes later another then made them cheer out loud. 

14 hours ago, RitualM said:

It reads as if I had been warned previously. Either way even Sanderson, while being very diplomatic, was clearly very disappointed with the s2 finale and quite a few of the writing choices made. 

I mean he said he loved the show and thought the writers had done a brilliant job, so i think we have to balance any minor criticism he has for the fact that he was also very very very praising of it and all that it has done. 

14 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Maybe it was salty language but i don't see it as ad hominem attack.

Probably Rafe is a marvellous human being, salt of the earth etc. etc. but I think it is still fine to express that opinion that I would instantly swap him with a random user of this forum as a showrunner of WoT (with a few exceptions @Elder_Haman 😝)

I think the kind of show that some on here would want to see whould end up being an atrocious mess of long exposition followed by cuts from scene to scene with no real character development or growth, a confused mess of a story that even book fans would watch and hate. 

making a TV show is not easy, you might want all sorts of things on screen but you have a budget, you have time restrictions and you have limitations. Lord of the Rings took 438 days pretty much filming every day, it took 7 film units, 150 locations and peter jackson monitoring each unit remotely via satellite feed. He was constantly re writing the script and ony got about 4 hours of sleep a night. 

WOT does not have that budget, it does not have that amount of time, 438 days to make 9 hours of movie. So decisions have to be made as to what can be shot, what locations can be used, where to spend the money on effects. That then feeds into the creative choices. 

I would love to see "almost anyone" on this board have a go at making that al come together in something passably looking like WOT lol. You might not like the WOT tv show, that is your personal opinion, there are many many who do, who think it is a really good show, that might confuse you but, guess what, its opinion there is no right or wrong here. What is a fact is that a human being does not pick up a project like WOT intending to use it as a vanity project, trying to prove they are a "better writer" or  "wanting to tank the show". Have mistakes been made, yes, in my opinion minor ones that in the grand scheme of things don't stop it from being one of the best fantasy shows on TV at the moment.

Is season 2 an improvement, yes, where changes always going to need to be made, yes, and is there a version of this show that makes everyone, book reader and non book reader happy all at the same time. Absolutely not, there is no way this show could be adapted and make everyone happy with everything. A version that stuck "closer to the books" whatever that means would probably have tanked with non book reading audiences and that would have killed the show 100%. 

18 hours ago, Mirefox said:

 

Hints?  He corrupts everything around him in prison, act and talks like a madman, taunts Rand with a message written in blood, then nails a fade to a wall through its face...I think that's a little beyond hints...

I meant we don't see what his goal is or that he is truly separated from the dark lord and something new, even in killing the Fade on first read through I was not 100% if that was for or against the dark lord. 

Another thing to consider about the Tylin storyline is that as a reader we all find it pretty horrific, so, when we learn that the Seanchan are stamping down on it, making people fill out paperwork for duels meaning fewer people are dying for instance, it emphasises that the Seanchan bring far more positives to the lands they occupy then negatives.

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Culture.

In many situations an Altaran woman has the right to kill a man unquestioned. Knives and swords are an important part of Altaran life. Both men and women fight duels over trivial disputes, often with fatal results. Altaran women carry marriage knives, which serve both as a formal way to broadcast marital status (its color and decorations describe marital and motherly status), and an easy method of disciplining their men. 

 

 

Mat himself is told that the way she is treating him is awful by another Altaran women. And I am sorry "culture" is not a defence for horrific behaviour, we as readers can still look at that and think "well thats pretty bad", the Seanchan start changing that culture when they come in. 

13 hours ago, fra85uk said:

 

Again, I disagree with this interpretation. I don't think RJ wanted us to feel schadenfreude. I often felt bad for the bad guys. For example, it was quite delicate the way he handled Jaichim Carridin POVs during his fall and how he tought about his family. Furthermore, the same darkfriend was horribly tortured and his death was disgusting.

I mean there is no redemptive qualities abotu Carridin, yes he remembers his sisters smile, or his nephews laugh, but he there is no regret there, no feeling of wanting it all to end, he almost is simply counting in his head how many are left until it reaches him. 

13 hours ago, Yamezt said:

 

 

I can understand he was trying to turn his the tables with gender roles, but unfortunately it didn't quite work for me the last I read. I feel it is also at the expense on the issue as to how men are rarely believed when they report rape, cuz what manly man would refuse sex from a beautiful lady - they should only be so pleased.

 

Also,  I would be quite happy for the removal of all torture and sexual assault in the TV series too on female darkfriends and forsaken when they fail/capture. I don't know if RJ was trying to evoke a sense of schadenfreude from the readers or something, but I found it uncomfortable. Sure, I realise the world is a horrible place - and he probably knows more than I do how awful the world is with his experience of war - but it is like female darkfriends and forsaken have things dialled up to 20 when karma strikes them while the men just die quickly after battle and sometimes rather unceremoniously 

I mean darkfriends use compulsion for sex all the time, not just in the case of Morgase and the aes sedai that is forced to have sex just before the mansion is balefired, but the descriptions of Foresaken turning kings and queens into versions of the human centipede, making them "put on displays" etc. 

Rape and sexual assault run right through the books, genrally under the surface but they are there, I hope they are shown, but not to GOT levels, I hope instead things are hinted at and then cut to next scene or pan away. 

But yes Matt was forced and coherced to do things he didn't want to do but it was not rape, it was however an abusive relationship. 

14 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Yea I really disliked that too. IMO that was rape. From memory it was written as if it were a humorous scene - cringey. Something I hope they cut out if the TV series if the seasons makes it that far. 

I mean in many ways it was, but it can be shot for TV, the Netflix Show Bridgerton is a period drama which has a scene that shows exactly how you could film this. Matt could have tried to get himself out of the situation if he wanted, yes he doesn't like that he is not in control and she dresses him as she wants but he tells himself that some of it is fun. 
 

In some ways this storyline was key for Matt, he stops sleeping with any pretty girl that gives him a smile, mainly because Tylin puts the word out,  and then finds himself in Tuons presence and realises he wants to make the choice to be with her and not be forced. he also chooses to be in a relationship where he will always be at her beck and call. 

54 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed AMoL and its two predecessors. Most of the Last Battle played really well. I didn't even mind the Sharans showing up out of nowhere or Padan Fain meeting a sudden and ignominious end. He sort of ran out of things to do anyway.

 

I thought Rand's battle with the Dark One was interesting, though I was amused that the Last Battle was actually about moral philosophy more than anything else. At the time I read it, I'd just finished watching The Good Place and I saw them as making oddly similar arguments about what it means to be human.

 

The Good Place shows us that almost no humans cannot get to the Good Place in the afterlife because every single decision we make or thing we do ripples out, and it will have consequences somewhere that will be negative  -- to other people, the environment, etc. So a bit of chaos theory as well. When our protagonists visit the Good Place for themselves, they find that everyone there is stupid and vacuous and boring. They conclude that humans can never be wholly good or live perfect lives (so therefore the concept of having a Good and a Bad Place is flawed, because everyone will go to the Bad Place), and when they are, they become weirdly postive hollow shells. When humans have freedom of choice, they make stupid or even harmful decisions or actions, but taking that ability, that freedom away so people can only do good and have no choice, causes greater harm to the very nature of humanity.

 

In AMoL, the Dark One shows Rand a vision of the world where Rand wins, and he/she/it is not in it (characterizing a non-human, non-corporeal being as male is an interesting choice of Jordan's...nevermind). All Rand's friends are stupid, vacuous, and boring; they are hollow shells of positivity but not themselves. Rand concludes that people need 'the Dark,' they need the freedom to make bad decisions in order to be fully actualized humans.

 

You see the link? I did anyway. You can obviously query the metaphysics: why do we need some vague non-human, non-corporeal but sentient entity floating around in the Blight in order to facilitate humans having moral freedom of choice, and if you get rid of that being, they will no longer have it. But it's probably best not to.

 

The bits I didn't like: Demandred's sword fighting. That felt like Sanderson saying, "I had an idea! Wouldn't it be cool to have Demandred fight Gawyn, Galad, and Lan." I mean, why on earth would he put himself at that kind of risk when he could just blast these guys into bits with a fireball? Sanderson's prose never convinced me that his ego was that big or that he was that stupid. It just felt like something the author fancied writing because it would be fun and would give Lan something Heroic to do.

 

Rand's ending. The body switch had me going, "Huh?"  Okay, best never to question too many mechanics or the laws of physics in WoT world. But then him saying "F*ck it, peace out," and riding off into the sunset, leaving his wives and friends and father to grieve, just felt out of character. I can appreciate why one would do that, but it didn't feel right for him, after getting to know him for 14 novels. I'm also not sure how you'd write that scene: "Hey, I know I look like one of the Forsaken, but honestly, it's me!" But I'm sure you'd work it out.

 

 

The ending I wanted. 
 

Rand stands there at the last battle and finally realises, the darklord is not some evil that dates back to the creator, it is an evil that was imprisoned in the last turning, the last time a great evil was defeated, he realises that the dark lord can be destroyed and there will be no impact. So he destroys it, frees the world and then, fain appears. A new evil that can’t be defeated but, can be contained in the prison that is now empty. And so, the “dark lord” is destroyed, but a new one is imprisoned ready to be unleashed in 20’000 years time. 

1 hour ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

They have to be able to reproduce or Trollocs would've disappeared while Aginor was imprisoned for 3000 years and there certainly wouldn't have been enough to support over a 100 years of the Trolloc Wars.

This is flat out stated during one of the Forsaken's PoV's thinking about the mystery of how Fades come into being.

 

There's been many theories over the years from Fades simply being a by-product of using the True Power to Trolloc's actually having souls and that anytime a soul with the ability to Channel comes along it is born a Fade.

Think the tongue in cheek humor was lost here, it is clear they reproduce, RJ went into it in rather cringey detail lol 

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Show should either expand his role a lot or get rid of him. He appeared now and then for a few pages and ultimately didn't matter after the Battle of Emond's Field

My hope always was he would replace the darklord in his prison, the big reveal being there is no creator, the dark lord is not some supernatural being from creation, it is just the evil from the last turning that got put in a prison, and so the next turning will be fighting that evil not the dark lord as he was last turning (zombie apocalypse anyone). 

On 10/17/2023 at 10:29 PM, Yamezt said:

Someone in AoL should have worked out how to make Deathgate act more like skimming than 'random' travelling.

 

Just seems  pointless dropping off the corpses back into the world at the risk of killing or damaging property at the random re-appearance of a gateway and then stinking the whole place up with corpses.

 

If they worked out how to make it act more like skimming at least the corpses are disposed of and you can always pick a fixed location that is safe to open the other end of the gateway.

Have you never seen videos of people (usually men) firing guns up into the air in "celebration" ignoring hat gravity means, you know, someone is going to get hurt (apparently they do quite often) 

"Sorry mrs jones, what you have here is your typical case of Aes Sedai throwing away rubbish without paying attention to where it is gone, yes I realise there is a dead trolloc in your living room and a hole in your roof, but unfortunately if you check the terms of your insurance you will see that in the terms and conditions you are not covered for. Amongst other things

Balefire undoing the DIY you did in your bathroom 

Damage to people or property caused y travelling 

and 

Aes Sedai throwing trollocs around with no consideration of where they might be landing. 

On 10/18/2023 at 10:34 AM, Ioulaum said:

The problem is that many of the ter'angreal seem to be one-off, artisinal artifacts.

 

Like, if they were just consumer products, you wouldn't make special shapes for an angreal (like Rand's fat man angreal)... You'd just have some generic shape where it's obvious that "It's an iPhone".

 

The fact that even The Forsaken are wary of the objects of Power that might be in the Stone of Tear because of their unknown effects, implies that they might not be able to recognize that many of them either.

 

Stuff like ancestral memory recall, or interdimensional simulation (if not actual possession of bodies in alternate lives)...

 

I'd be more inclined to assume that they are billion dollar research projects and not consumer goods.

 

The Age of Legends also just doesn't seem very advanced from a usability standpoint as far as their products are concerned... Maybe because their tech was more dependent on things like "the talent for making angreal" rather than Math.

I mean you assume they are unique, you never know, maybe there where queues hours long waiting for the latest release of the Fat Man angreal. Fat Man 5.6, now slightly slimmer and in a different shade of green.  

On 10/18/2023 at 12:27 AM, TravellingIsAGatewayDrug said:

The authors never actually cover the reproductive habits of the shadowspawn or their relevant anatomy from what I remember.

 

It was mentioned that most if not all types of them were created by one of the Forsaken. Perhaps they have no true sex.

 

Perhaps they crawl out of pits of mud, blood, muck, and filth after some ritual is done. Maybe even huck a few corpses in for good measure. That is kind of in line with how I picture them.

 

That would also cover the wolves' term for them.

I like to think that Aginor read the Lord of the rings and decided to try making Orcs, only to be told he would be sued by the Tolkien estate for copyright breach, and so in a fit of rage went to the dark lord, and with his new found powers decided to create the Trolloc. I don't thik they reproduce, that sounds far to messy for a Foresaken to mess about with, I think they are just, created. Also, trollocs will eat anything i cant see baby trollocs lasting beyond the next time mummy is hungry. 

Ooo your pregnant mavis, well you know Miriam I was peckish and fancied a nice snack later. 

10 hours ago, Ioulaum said:

It would've been nice if RJ's actual notes for the final books had been released along with the books.

 

I would like to know what details Brandon Sanderson changed or added on himself.

 

Some of the writing definitely had the vibe of fanfiction, and of a perspective that is more akin to a reader's than a writer's.

 

Like how the question of whether Mat was one of the Heroes of the Horn... If that is the answer, then it's almost not worth giving the answer. Because it takes away from people's imaginations while not really adding anything.

I would love to have something like the Tolkien notes that where released, but, we had a load of drafts and re writes (and christopher tolkien did milk that alot), I think from what BS has said the idea of "notes" is a very very loose thing, there where ideas that had to be formed into a story. 

to the OP, I agree, the first time I read them I liked them, because the series was coming to an end, but I have since re read them about 7 or 8 times and they have to count amongst some of the worst fantasy writing I have read, the worst thing is that there is an essence there, but BS fails to stick the landing (in my opinion) multiple times. I think the fact is we need to live with what we have and be grateful that this is not GOT, to be fair it taught me an important lesson, never start a fantasy series that has not been finished, especially if the Author is a slow writer who is nearer to death then birth 🙂 

26 minutes ago, Pink said:

If Perrin is Thor, then Mat is definitely Loki

What the battle master with only 1 eye, Matt is Odin, 

I relation to the OP, I don't think Robert Jordan was looking at biblical references for his work, which is surprising because he was certainly a very religious man who took communion several times a week. In fact I have always thought it interesting that someone who was so heavily involved in organised religion was able to separate that from his writing, I mean I don't know what it says that the only organised religious group in his story (the white cloaks) are a force of evil in the world. 

Robert Jordan was inspired by Tolkien, it is why EOTW is so closely aligned to Fellowship of the ring, and why so many of the characters early on can be linked directly to LOTR characters (Lan Aragorn, Moiraine Gandalf, the EF5 the hobbits, Loial Treebeard). Tolkien leant very much on nordic mythos for his story. Robert Jordan used some eastern mythos, but this was not a reference to lucifer. I suggest you read the origins of the Wheel of Time, the author was given access to notes and was able to interview those close to RJ including Brandon Sanderson to give a very good book that looks at the writing process and the influences of the story. 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

That comes down to screen time...

To be fair book 2 we see hints of it but don't truly see what he is able to do, and certainly have no idea that he will become the evil zombie making fog man he does at the very end, 

hmmmm maybe Rafe should just have him killed in Season 3 and be done with it 

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't think it will be like the books.

  Reveal hidden contents

She just gets sidelined in the books for not being a good little Darkfriend by a Forsaken (iirc of course). It is not very final, anyone could have freed her, and it is not very tasteful, to be put wholly subservient to a man she hated and despised. It's a bit ewww.

I predict it will be a big bang and very final. But when? The character could be hanging about for quite some time, potentially being kept on til the bitter end.

 

I mean, given the way they have set her up, and that they will no doubt ramp up the evil she does, maybe her book ending will give a nice sense of punishment to the viewers, she actually ends up with Suroth in the book which always asked the question how would the shield work against a collar.