Doubt the episode will match the chapter in anyway. 

21 hours ago, Godoggo said:

You have preceptive friends.  None of the non-book readers that I know knew that there were two halves of the power.  They saw the weaves and there are suggestions in the show that women can see men weave.  

The biggest thing that showed them that was how Rand could see the shield when none of the aes sedai around Moraine could, maybe it could be highlighted a bit more clearly a scene showing a female channeller reacting to another women's weave, and then later on a similar weave from a man not getting any reaction even as it is directly in front of her. Or they could have shown it with Lanfer not knowing when Rand was channelling.

7 hours ago, EirikDaude said:

 

I agree with this as the main reason so many people love the Wheel of Time. The characters are just so relateable. Sure, there are times they behave like idiots, and there are times when so much could have been solved if they just talked about their problems, about their doubts and feelings.

 

But yeah, a lot of people do really have trouble talking about stuff like that, and I think recognizing that is one of the big strengths of RJ's writing. Maybe he takes it a bit over the top sometimes, particularly the conflict between men and women, but considering he wanted to make overcoming those differences and working together one of the big themes in his novels I can see why he did it.

 

 

I've got to disagree with you on those two series being better than  WoT. For Thomas Covenant I made it most of the way through book 1 before deciding on dropping it, so it does not even compare to EotW for me.

 

Dune is a series I read all the way through, but I haven't reread any of them except for the first one.

 

I might argue that the Dresden Files or the Discworld books are series which drag me in more than WoT, but they are a very different fantasy-genres than what Robert Jordan wrote, and I don't think I've reread either more times than WoT. 

See eye of the world took me 4 attempts to actually get through originally, if I had not bought books 1-6 all at once I would probably have just put it into charity. I remember I lent the book to 4 friends while I was struggling to start it and they also all didn’t finish it. 

So there can be no absolute thing here, my question is not is WOT the best fantasy series ever, in my opinion it isn’t, I also personally disagree that the characters behave normally, they really don’t in many many cases, they don’t learn from mistakes to an almost parody level, they are meant to be young adults but at times behave like young children. But also the writing style in itself is, again in my opinion, not great at times. 
 

but yea this thread was why despite the fact that I personally can find so many issues with it, do I keep coming back and re reading in a way that, for instance, I don’t with Thomas covenant, despite feeling that the TC series is far far better.

3 hours ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

Been on WOT boards since 1996. (Maybe DM was the first proper board (1998), anyway, I refer them as messageboards.) So, I have seen 'your' post a great many times in the last 27 years.

This post should look like a massive array of 'disagree, disagree' etc. but I will write a very short comment to express my feelings.

1. Show me a fantasy or sci-fi series where the first six books can match the first six books of WOT. Name one. You cant, because there's no such a series.
(It goes without saying that Robert Jordan is not Joyce, Faulkner etc, but in his field TEOTW–LOC is unmatched.)
2. There are many, many moments of brilliance, and talking about emotional impacts, well there are many of them too.

3. There are bigger problem in the prose than repetition. (And the average reader finds them useful.)

4. Characters: see below.

5. Many people exist even without a dimension. And: see below.

6. Ah, the so-called 'modern writing style'. Again, name these unworldly geniuses. And how were they able to exceed Joyce, Faulkner etc? Who are these hidden gems?

7. Ah, the so-called 'dated prose'. Jordan deliberately chose a certain style, a certain set of words etc. And: see below.

8. TC: no comment...

9. Again, there so many great moments even in TEOTW (all right, I'm biased, because of reading (with my (failing) eyes) it so many times that I cannot put a number to it)

This is the below. 😀

 

I agree with Robert Jordan:

 

Question: Why do you think the World of Time series is so popular?

Robert Jordan: 'I really don't know. If I knew, I would guarantee that I could do it again. I think it is all a good story. The characters seem to be real people. They behave in the way real people behave. Perhaps that has something to do with it.'

 

Robert Jordan: 'A lot of people are as fascinated with the individual characters as they are with the story. They talk to me about the characters as if they are people they know. I've tried to make them seem like real people—they're not perfect, they lie to one another sometimes, they try to put the best face on things even with friends. I've tried to make the world seem a place solid enough for people to visualize, not just a backdrop for the characters.'

I heard and read so many times that real people behave so differently in real life: my experiences say otherwise, so I think the characters in the books behave as real men and women, and when the foundation–basis–cornerstone of a series is duality, yes, there has to be a constant confrontation between the two genders. (And if you go back, and read classic books, plays, poems, then you will see that our whole life–culture based on collisions between men and women. Like it or not.)

Chronicles of Thomas covenant are hands down better then the first 6 books in entirety, books 4-6 of wot maybe match but the first 3 do not. Covenant also showed how you make a reluctant hero a flawed lead character. For me it is the standard of fantasy blowing LOTR out of the water. 

Dune as a sci fi series easily matches 4-6 and again dune is better then eotw. 
 

that is 2, I could include the eisenhorn series, although that is really a series of trilogies, and the 40k universe is a diverse universe created by a number of writers and game designers. 
 

The first 3 books have a lot of great moments but also in my opinion and the opinion of others I know so many flaws, like you I have been reading it 20 years and I can accept it for those flaws but they are there. But this is all opinion and I am not going to say your wrong same as I won’t say I am wrong. 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

No you completely misunderstood the point I was making.
Let me make this as perfectly clear as I can.

 

Ashton Kutcher.

 

Now replace the above with words "she" and "her" with "Ashton Kutcher".
 

Why? Because until a few weeks ago. This was also true of Ashton Kutcher.

Hence when @notpropaganda73 replied with this  

I was agreeing, and just making sure the context of "Ashton Kuthcer" reply was clear to notpropaganda73 and others by clarifying the context with the direct quote of just the bolded text in the original quote.

Ahhhh ok sorry I misunderstood I thought Ashton had said something about her. I will say the Ashton thing is diffeeent he didn’t try burying another film star, he just made a really really bad decision to speak up for a sex offender, but also, Ashton for years has had runouts about him having affairs and stuff, there have been things runoured about him despite his efforts to shut them down .

1 hour ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I think you missed were I said "I have felt like", this was my opinion, did not say it was fact or should affect anyone else opinion. Guess I should just not make comments on how I see things.

Apologies seen so many people quite that as a fact about the series . 

2 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

See, you're still thinking Rand is the main character of the series. There is very little Cadsuane does that Moiraine wouldn't work better for, you keep your lead actress, and its a byproduct of eliminating the Finns, which is already a possibility.

 

It's a shame we can't do Polls:

 

1. Moiraine's book arc remains untouched, and Ms. Pike is about to go fishing for 3 seasons

2. Moiraine's journey ends in a different way, more permanent way, but at the same point in the series

3. Moiraine assumes Cadsuane's role in the show, and they redo all of her and Lan's arcs as a result.

 

These also happen to be in my order of preference.

Rafe has stated that the writers had a mouth drip moment when he revealed a major character dies so that leads me to believe he is not keeping her in the show, now she might return but if the Finn are being removed I can see her being dead dead and Lanfer as well. 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

  

It was from that post. Literally could have scrolled up and read the post where I replied "Ashton Kutcher" and expanded the quote where I bolded the text I quoted you in...

No I meant online I could t find any negative details about her regarding Ashton Kutcher, I googled both names and gone girl like issues. And when I said missed that meant I obv missed those quotes when they happened regarding the movie. 

59 minutes ago, Cipher said:

In TGH Rand is most definitely the main character.  He gets more time than anybody else and has very good development as “Lord Rand” and Lady Selene actually forces him to level up. Rand has 53% of the POV with Egwene in 2nd at 13.5%.

 

In TDR it is ironic that Rand is mostly MIA though.

In TGH RJ thought he was going to have to end the series, he then spent several books increasing the screen Time of the other characters to get them up to the level of familiarity Rand was. 

Rafe knows how long he has to tell his story, he also knows that he needs to introduce all the characters and get them embedded in the show. Rand is the easy one to do this with because he is the dragon reborn, an entire season was spent finding that out, Matt is the hardest given in books 1-3 he has the weakest story in terms of stuff to do (he comes into his own in book 3 I happily accept), the rest have all broadly followed the same threads. 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The above quote, is why I replied with the name Ashton Kutcher.

must have missed that and still can't find those quotes?

2 hours ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Watching the show I have felt like they really want Egwene to be the Dragon Reborn, guessing Harriet would not allow it. So instead they are giving Egwene an arch that makes her look like the Dragon Reborn version 1a.

this argument just has no basis in fact whatsoever. In the books Egwene's plot actually takes up more time then Rands at various points, in season 1 Rafe didn't talk about Rand because he didn't want to spoil who the dragon was for non book viewers. In season 2 he is right, from book 2 Rand is not the main Protagonist, he is one in an ensemble piece and Robery Jordan spent a lot of time and gave a lot of page time to the E4 having focused on Rand when he thought there would only be 3 books to tell the story in. 

Saying after 2 seasons of the characters all broadly following the same story themes they did in the books gives no indication that anyone wanted Egwene as the Dragon. I mean Brandon would have come out and made that statement and i have not seen that anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) and not based on opinion, but based on fact of Rafe saying to him I don't want rand ot be the Dragon reborn. 

I also dont see anywhere a "fear" of gendered chanelling, it has been really clear to my non book reading friends so far that there are 2 halfs to the power, 

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Hopefully we get Cadsuane. No guarantee of that, especially if they eliminate the Finn and the attendant catfight.

I think Moiraine is going, possibly to never cone back, that is the catalyst for so much of Rands growth and development. Cadsuane will come back at that point, personally I am much happier with Shohreh as Elaida she has a much much bigger rold then Cadsuane has in the books, lets be fair Cadsuane basicly spends her time either pissing rand off, or being banished by him. 

8 hours ago, Samt said:

An Aes Sedai wouldn’t know what? The definition of darkfriend? Or that someone might help the shadow without being a darkfriend?  Because both of those concepts are actually very basic things that an Aes Sedai would definitely know.  
 

Unless you are saying that the oath is effectively invalidated by it being possible that someone might be a darkfriend.  But that would mean the oath is effectively meaningless. Any time someone works against an Aes Sedai, which is the only time attacking with the one power would come up, it’s possible the antagonist is a darkfriend.  
 

The oath only makes sense if it requires certainty, which a sane Moiraine couldn’t have had.

An aes sedai would not know specifically has this person personally sworn to the dark lord, or, is this person doing something for the Darklord thinking they are doing something evil for someone else, or because they are being paid to do it. 

10 minutes ago, Samt said:

The only thing that ever makes one into a darkfriend: knowingly swearing an oath to serve the shadow.  Darkfriend is a specific term referring to someone who has knowingly sworn an oath to serve the shadow. It isn’t a generic term for someone who does something that you don’t like.  It isn’t even just someone who does something that helps the shadow. While certain key Seanchan leaders are darkfriends, most of the soldiers and leaders aren’t. 
 

Also, I think that in the show the darkfriend loophole isn’t even part of the oaths anyways.

But an aes sedai would not know that, anyone working against the light is fair game, the oath doesn’t know more then the person under it, if it looks like. Duck, quacks like a duck it is a darkfriend regardless of if it has taken any oaths etc. 

So attacking the ships does come in under the oath to protect. 

If you remember from the first read through Turning someone takes away an essence of who they are so it is no good using it on anyone who has a public face because the change will be seen. In books 12 and 13 it becomes clear that it was used, alot, to turn the Aiel male channellers who went to fight the dark lord andit is suggested I think that there are female channelers who have been turned in that town as well. 

in reality I think RJ put it in as a mechanic and then didn't really see a good place to use it in the story early on. BS then expanded on it and tried to use it as a horror or tension builder in the Black tower (not to great effect but he tried). 

12 hours ago, GregR said:

Apologies if this was mentioned and I missed it, but I saw it asked what in the books was considered using the power as a weapon, in the context of Moiraine and the damane on the ship in the TV show.

 

During the siege of Tar Valon, Egwene watches ships heading for the city and thinks to herself that she could set the ships on fire or just make holes to sink them. But if so people would surely die (mile to shore and freezing water).  And she doesn't because of wanting to live by the Oaths even if she hadn't taken them yet.  Then the book then states very specifically that no Aes Sedai who had taken the Oaths could even form the weaves to sink the ships for that reason.

There is a big difference here the ships where taking food and goods to the people of Tar Valon, not attacking it. The Seanchan vessels where obviously an invading armoured force and they where attacking the Dragon Reborn while he was fighting a Foresaken, if that does not make them darkfriends by definition I don't know what will. 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Let's put it this way.

Cutting/Changing the clown arc, the people involved,  putting Nami into the story earlier and making her a "traitor", really is the equivalent rewriting Moiraine's arc in S2 to give her "more to do" in S2 then what happened in the books.

 

The "Captures the Heart" really comes down to style.

 

One Piece had manga and an anime. We already knew HOW it looked, and HOW it sounded.

 

Most people haven't reread the one piece manga 10 times, or rewatched the anime 10 times.

 

How many times have some of us reread the WoT books? 

I am wondering how many who "hate" the series have read it many timers over 8+? and how many have gone through it once and so have a bit of a nostalgic view about certain things. Certainly some of those who have major issues with the show seem to have forgotten, or not understood certain book themes and threads. I am not saying if you have not read the series x many times you can't be called a lover or your view is not valid, what I am saying is that there is so much in the book that one or 2 read throughs is not enough to remember all of it and so it is very easy to misremember details from the books that feed into some (not all) of the changes Rafe has made. 

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

The show has people of color and non-heterosexual people. Such a travesty! /s

I know, I would rather live my life sleeping through life, and worrying about walking into things because my eyes are all closed (when people come up with a buzz word like the W word, they need to consider what they are saying about people who are the opposite lol). 

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

This point is important. I bet we all would find countless complaints in any movie or show if we decided to analyze them half as much as WoT. I can notice some things that stand out as "weird" or could have been done "better" and still enjoy the heck out of WoT.

 

I've read the books so many times I'm not sure if I'll ever reread the whole series. There's so many issues that take away from my enjoyment. The show has already made the journey fun and interesting in a way the books were on the first few reads.

Witcher may as well throw the source material out the window in a way WOT never has. 

The Expanse apparently had huge changes to the source material, but, was really really well written and so the book readers I know at least didn't mind. 

Foundation, another TV show that started unsteadily but in season 2 really came alive, and yet has almost used the books as nothing but the briefest of descriptions and story ideas it is so different. 

 I mean, look at the Marvel movies and TV shows, all of them based off source material that is 50+ years old, and yet they make wholesale changes to story and plot and seem to be able to make a few pounds (dollars) out of them, and even make some brilliant films. 

5 hours ago, Mirefox said:

People trash the writing and direction of this show because it is D-Tier amateurish and the source material deserves better.  If the books were just “Twilight”-level schlock maybe more of us would be willing to roll over and praise whatever they are shoveling but many of us expect better for a higher-tier work of literature.  We wanted  Lord of the Rings and we were given Rings of Power.   Nobody is here to change your mind or to say that you can’t enjoy the show but we have every right to be critical and to argue back against complacency.

Ok lets be honest here, the writing in WOT is better then Twilight, but, they are not perfect works of literary genius, I would argue even in the fantasy lexicon they are not the best written books, there are moments of amazing writing, but also a load of stuff that could have. been cut, just the sheer repetition,  the various storylines that numerous readers say they dislike and would remove, the fact that RJ didn't know how many books he was going to write to start with and so the start of the story is dragged out, and lets ignore all the issues of the 3 books at the end, books that 10 years ago parts of the community largely hated for "destroying RJ's work".

I think any critique of Rafes writing needs to accept the reality. What RJ is great at is world building the books are higher tier level because of that, the highs are amazing (Emonds Field) but they are few and far between. I did a thread on this, why do I keep coming back despite all the flaws in the books. Now does this mean Rafe is "making the story better" personally there are aspects of season 2 I thought would have made the books better if the story had gone that way, I know others disagree and I respect that. I also do not see rafe as a "better writer" then RJ, I do think WOT would have been very very very different, especially the first 3 books, had RJ known when writing book 1 he didnt need to write a fellowship of the rings rip off, and he had 14 books to tell this story. What Rafe has the possibility to do is spread out some of the big lore drop in books 1-3 across the TV show at a better pace because he knows from day one the length of this thing. He can pace it better. 

We where in no way given Rings of Power, the lore in Rings of Power has been destroyed and changed to an extent that WOT has not even come close to. There is so much hysteria that is just not factually true, people insisted the power would not be gendered, it is, they insisted that souls not being gendered would be an issue, it isn't because all the characters so far are the same gender. They say that "Rand has lost his power" when in the books the power of Rand was reduced as soon as RJ realised he needed to stretch his arc out over 14 books not 3. If ROP changes where applied to WOT the breaking would have happened 30 years prior to the story, LTT would still be alive, The creator would be walking the earth. I am not exaggerating the lore of LOTR has been just removed and replaced in it's entirety so no, do not way we got ROP. We didn't even get Shinara, and this is in no way as bad as the Witcher. Those 3 

People are taking statements made by characters who don't have all the information as fact, they are taking half reveals and deciding they know what that means. The key lore is all still there, changes to mechanics of some of the story have been made, and by all means debate what should or should not have been cut, suggest alternative storylines if you want, but understand others will challenge back as to the flaws of that. 

 

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

you mean, like a queen running away from her palace, reaching the aiel waste, getting accepted in far dareis mai, just in time to participate in the aiel wars - the one time in 3000 years the aiel left the waste - so that she could die on the slopes of dragonmount while giving birth to the dragon reborn, who would then be found by a sheepherder-turned-blademaster-turned-sheepherder-again?

it's called ta'veren. the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. the world of wot has a perfectly built-in justification for unlikely events.

Sorry no, those are long term plot points, BS artificially tries to drive tension within a scene in a way that can't be hand waved as "the wheel weaves" Robert Jordan was the master at building tension to a crescendo, the battle of Emonds Field does that, in the how many pages of book that BS wrote he didn't once hit an emotional beat like that, instead we got forced moments that where meant to feel emotional but just fell flat. 

26 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

RJ: “It’s my story, guys.  If you have ideas, write your own stories.”

 

Rafe: OK, Boomer

Is the quote you took, when he made it clear handing his book to a script wroter wold mean wholescale changes and differences being made because, as he said, he wrote a book not a TV show or movie. 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

My thought is.

A) Rosamund's acting in Gone Girl still sits in the back of my mind.

B) Pretty much every actor is by definition a Narcissist. The "image" they let the world see is the image they've curated for the world to see.

C) If we only see Rosamund's scenes nominated and no one else I believe that would confirm my gone girl paranoia; But if Madeleine, Zoë, and Kate get nominations in addition to Rosamund, then I think that'll erase my gone girl paranoia. lol

 

 

In what way did Gone Girl impact your opinion of her? remember how an actor portrays a role is as much, of not more, down to the Director and editing then the performance. We don't know which versions of a role get left on the cutting room floor. 

Some actors are Narcissists, many many more love the craft and do it because they love it and in reality are introvert or have low self confidence. Yes there is always an element of "curating" an image, but the truth usually is known, especially in this day and age. If Pike was as you say then there would be stories about her behaviour on set, or with other cast members. I can't find anything but positive comments about her which suggests that she is a genuine person. 

The thing about WOT is that we all have so vastly differing opinions, for instance I think that the Prose at points is pretty bad, I agree the characters can get frustrating and irritating, and yet I have read it back to front now many many times, and read individual books many times more. 

The world and the cultures and the magic system are what pull me back more and more. 

I will say that when reading it a second time through always remember that it was only at book 4 that RJ knew how long his series was going to be, so he struggled to define the clear arcs earlier because he thought the next book might be the end. 

5 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

“One such device should not be enough to affect even a large part of a single continent.”

If the device he was thinking of could not affect even a significant portion of one continent, that implies it is a different device.

In the AoL, weather stations would be located on top of a buildings and other choice locations and feed information to a computer that would collect all the data and the send all the commands to an automated global system of devices powered by the Standing Wave.

Automated systems mentioned by another Forsaken (?Asmodean) aren’t operated by people, but there could be Terangreal in the system which are triggered by the computer system, probably by input power from the standing wave, not initiated by Saidar.

 

The people who created the terangreal of the AoL didn’t include an alternate initialization for an automated terangreal powered by the Standing Wave to also allow women to use them.

 

If we disagree what is cannon, we will disagree on much, even if we agree on what is cannon, we could still have different perspectives on what’s what.

 

Maybe if the Bowl of Winds was a broken melted lump at the end of the channeling you could argue it was used beyond its capacity (much like the female Choen Dal (which doesn’t make sense that it could break when used)) but it wasn’t. It isn’t the same device. And even if the Seafolk used a secret chord to change the weather, it still wasn’t weather skill, it was merely knowledge of that secret chord.

But you are not stating anything that is Canon, I don't even know where you are getting some of your supposed "facts" from. The Author made a statement that disproves your insisted argument. The things you are stating here are not described in the novels so are entirely made up in your own head, or that of someone elses, and i this case the only person who is allowed to make things up in their head and call it Canon is the Author. 

RJ said it was used beyond it's capability in an answer that shows he thought long and hard about all of this before writing that bit of the story, we have no idea how AOL devices worked, what activated them, there is talk of "standing waves" but that is not explained, we also see multiple times that the Foresaken also don't really know what a lot of these things do, they are afraid to go into a room of terangeral because they are worried they might trigger something dangerous. That makes sense, the Foresaken where not a fount of all knowledge, so not knowing exactly how things work or what might be possible is all in character. 

But he said it "Should not be enought to impact even the weather in a single continnt" but later on explains the Windfinder skill allows it to be used beyond its purpose. Not because of the amount of power, but because the Windfinders create a chain effect i the weather, much like a butterfly in Japan creating a hurricane in America. The Butterfly can't actaully make a hurricane from power, but it can make a tiny change that magnifies out to a big one (and I know the butterfly analogy is not based on real life).