So...lets chat

[Leelou]

First off, hi everyone! And sorry, this is going to be a rant, then hopefully a discussion. 

 

So, I'd like to take this outside of a game because it clearly bothers me and has for some time. I understand quite a few of you are meta users, and that floats your boat. Fine if you want to use that for an individual and how they are acting. What bothers me is how much you guys tie Verbal and myself together in your meta reads that you can't seem to independently read us. There is no reason that you guys need to fall back and just read us off each other. I know I'm frustrated trying to fend off a lynch just because I haven't had time to interact with Verbal because of my work schedule, or it's a weekend, or I haven't read him enough for your "meta" liking. Everything we do or don't do in a game together is under teeny tiny scrutiny and to be frank, there are times I either don't have time or just flat out don't feel like dealing with Verbal right away anymore because of the way you guys have treated us as a package deal read. I'm sorry, that's just not fun. You guys have us boxed into acting a certain way and there is no reason why you can't read us outside of how we interact. Yes, we might be good at reading each other, but guess what, we actually read each other's tone/actions. I know I'm frustrated to the point that we've discussed it over coffee, and I've made the decision to no longer play in games with one of my dearest friends here because it's no longer fun. When I get pissed off in a game because of it, it's legit frustration and game ruining for me. 

 

Is there anything that can be done about that, or are we basically going to be switching off playing in games? 

[Nynaeve]

lol

[Kaylee]

You have every right to be frustrated. I've actually, after hearing this before from you, have been trying to read you both independently. It bit me in the rear in the game before DPR's that I played, but hey that happens. I think I did ok in this last game. (It's what lead me to view him).

 

It's frustrating to be read for something that has nothing to do with alignment and I get it. I'm sorry it's caused you to not have fun. I think it's a fair request that can be complied with.

[DPR]

  On 1/18/2017 at 10:29 AM, Leelou said:

First off, hi everyone! And sorry, this is going to be a rant, then hopefully a discussion. 

 

So, I'd like to take this outside of a game because it clearly bothers me and has for some time. I understand quite a few of you are meta users, and that floats your boat. Fine if you want to use that for an individual and how they are acting. What bothers me is how much you guys tie Verbal and myself together in your meta reads that you can't seem to independently read us. There is no reason that you guys need to fall back and just read us off each other. I know I'm frustrated trying to fend off a lynch just because I haven't had time to interact with Verbal because of my work schedule, or it's a weekend, or I haven't read him enough for your "meta" liking. Everything we do or don't do in a game together is under teeny tiny scrutiny and to be frank, there are times I either don't have time or just flat out don't feel like dealing with Verbal right away anymore because of the way you guys have treated us as a package deal read. I'm sorry, that's just not fun. You guys have us boxed into acting a certain way and there is no reason why you can't read us outside of how we interact. Yes, we might be good at reading each other, but guess what, we actually read each other's tone/actions. I know I'm frustrated to the point that we've discussed it over coffee, and I've made the decision to no longer play in games with one of my dearest friends here because it's no longer fun. When I get pissed off in a game because of it, it's legit frustration and game ruining for me. 

 

Is there anything that can be done about that, or are we basically going to be switching off playing in games? 

 

 

Totally scum  #easymetaread

 

Kidding - which you know. It's an issue for everyone that's played for a while.

[Eldrick4221]

I think the closest I've come to reading you is interpreting your reads list.

 

I don't think I clump you together with Verb and figure you out by your respective interactions. If I do I would like to apologize. I don't want you to stop playing with your friend, and will make an effort to make that possible.

[Verbal32]

  On 1/18/2017 at 1:27 PM, Kaylee said:

You have every right to be frustrated. I've actually, after hearing this before from you, have been trying to read you both independently. It bit me in the rear in the game before DPR's that I played, but hey that happens. I think I did ok in this last game. (It's what lead me to view him).

 

It's frustrating to be read for something that has nothing to do with alignment and I get it. I'm sorry it's caused you to not have fun. I think it's a fair request that can be complied with.

 

You killed it last game.  I was thinking about how I wanted to approach it, and you stepped in and nailed me before I could even make a decision on which direction to go, lol.

 

 

 

But basically I just wanted to say "you nailed me" in a sentence that made sense.  Go me.  :-)

[Verbal32]

  On 1/18/2017 at 11:43 AM, Nynaeve said:

lol

 

I don't find it particularly funny when friends don't want to play in games together anymore, so please help me understand how it is funny for you.

[alannalynn]

I agree it probably sucks but we also can't exactly police how people play? I'm not sure that's the right way I want to phrase it, but I'm not trying to be rude or downplay how it makes you feel. But, if they continue to be WRONG because they're reading you wrong by tying you together, they'll stop doing it eventually. You shouldn't have to stop playing with people you like. The problem is that if it works for someone.. well... ??? 

 

I love your kitty avi, Leelou. 

[Leelou]

Well it's a matter of we are forced to play a certain way or have people act like I mentioned above, so that's someone policing how we play.

[Leelou]

  On 1/18/2017 at 1:27 PM, Kaylee said:

You have every right to be frustrated. I've actually, after hearing this before from you, have been trying to read you both independently. It bit me in the rear in the game before DPR's that I played, but hey that happens. I think I did ok in this last game. (It's what lead me to view him).

 

It's frustrating to be read for something that has nothing to do with alignment and I get it. I'm sorry it's caused you to not have fun. I think it's a fair request that can be complied with.

[BFG]

 

Not trying to be unsympathetic or an arse, but...

 

where's the/your line?

 

In Buffy when you came back from holiday and asked me to ask you your reads on a player, I asked you about verb and (i think) Lenlo. Lenlo because he was a suspect, verb because he was Prals suspect and also because the majority of players pay more attention skimming to players they're familiar with, so he's a read I would expect you to have, not because I read you and verb as one, but because you're familiar with each other.

 

For example, If I'm skimming a game I am most likely to have an opinion on Dice, because he's probably the player I understand the best <3

 

In the Champs Qualifier game, 3 people had played together before, all randed scum and avoided each other. I noted it as weird, but didn't push it because scummytowndistractions but since then it's a connection I make more and more.

 

I actually don't have a clue how you two act normally or otherwise, I haven't played with you recently enough or enough in general, but that skimming early easy read is one I 'expect' from most players if they know each other.

 

Is this now over your line because it's you and Verb, even though it's an occasional generic tell between teammates?

[Verbal32]

I can't really have much of an opinion, because this happens to her 99% of the time, and me the other 1%.  So I can't complain.  But I don't want her to feel as if she doesn't want to play - that bothers me as well.

[BFG]

And yes, changes in behaviour will gain attention from heavily based meta players. I'm not sure how many arguments I had with Zander last year when I started to become more 'aggressive' with my votes, but we got there

 

I don't really know what to suggest, I can't imagine many of the current regular players know you well enough to read you together... Darthe, Zander, dice? Nolder tends to avoid meta afaict, shad didn't use it last game, tress, key, Kaylee, Tina don't play enough </3

[BFG]

  On 1/18/2017 at 6:35 PM, Verbal32 said:

I can't really have much of an opinion, because this happens to her 99% of the time, and me the other 1%. So I can't complain. But I don't want her to feel as if she doesn't want to play - that bothers me as well.

I agree completely, and I'm really not trying to be unsympathetic.

 

Despo used to scum read me every game I was playing past 1 because I was tired and he'd pick up on my tone or something

 

I know it's frustrating

[alannalynn]

Question: How is it any different from using other people and how they treat each other to assist your read? I know that I watch how Dice and Zander interact because they're close, just like I would watch how Verbal and Leelou interact, just as I'm sure people have watched how me and Zander interact in the past because we were good at reading each other.

 

But it's still not used as the sole way of reading another player. It's just an aid because it has worked well in the past. At the same time, it can go both ways and you can use it against other players. And it's not something you can police. Like, you can SAY not to talk about subs, but we all know we get the inkling in our heads Every Time someone subs out that they might be scum. It impacts the game and it's a thought. So even if we're not "allowed" to make reads off of how two players interact (which is what the game is about, tbh), we're still going to use our brains and it might still be used. 

 

 

  On 1/18/2017 at 5:31 PM, Leelou said:

Well it's a matter of we are forced to play a certain way or have people act like I mentioned above, so that's someone policing how we play.

How does it force you to play a certain way? You don't know each others alignment unless you're on the same team and you can use it to your advantage if you are, I guess..

[Shad_]

I guess you could intentionally avoid stating reads on each other as either alignment?  I mean I want you both to enjoy the game, but I also don't think people can realistically be expected to ignore information on the table in front of them in a game environment.  Refusing to read each other's slots would draw some scrutiny for a few games, but I think we'd eventually normalize it.

[Kaylee]

  On 1/18/2017 at 4:18 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 1/18/2017 at 1:27 PM, Kaylee said:

You have every right to be frustrated. I've actually, after hearing this before from you, have been trying to read you both independently. It bit me in the rear in the game before DPR's that I played, but hey that happens. I think I did ok in this last game. (It's what lead me to view him).

 

It's frustrating to be read for something that has nothing to do with alignment and I get it. I'm sorry it's caused you to not have fun. I think it's a fair request that can be complied with.

You killed it last game. I was thinking about how I wanted to approach it, and you stepped in and nailed me before I could even make a decision on which direction to go, lol.

 

 

 

But basically I just wanted to say "you nailed me" in a sentence that made sense. Go me. :-)

Anytime Verb.

[Verbal32]

giggity

[Zander?]

I def dont want you to not play together guys, but like mentioned, some players base reads on how certain people interact with each other.

 

There are players I interact with a lot away from Mafia and it helps me form reads when play, players like Nyn, Hallia, Dice etc.  This also leads into other players asking ME to give MY reads on those players as either alignment.

 

Like I ask you guys your reads on each other because you guys have played A LOT of games together and know each other well both in and away from Mafia.

 

And I dont think its fair for you to feel uncomfortable playing with Verb but I also dont think its fair for other players to not be able to ask you guys for your reads on each other because then as Scum it would give you guys something to hide behind.

 

I hope we can find the balance that will both allow you to play and not tamper with the integrity of the game so to speak.

[Zander?]

  On 1/18/2017 at 6:35 PM, BFG said:

And yes, changes in behaviour will gain attention from heavily based meta players. I'm not sure how many arguments I had with Zander last year when I started to become more 'aggressive' with my votes, but we got there

 

I don't really know what to suggest, I can't imagine many of the current regular players know you well enough to read you together... Darthe, Zander, dice? Nolder tends to avoid meta afaict, shad didn't use it last game, tress, key, Kaylee, Tina don't play enough </3

 

This is not enough WoT for BFG

 

Obv Scum tell

 

[v] BFG [/v]

 

lololololololol

[Nynaeve]

  On 1/18/2017 at 4:19 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 1/18/2017 at 11:43 AM, Nynaeve said:

lol

 

I don't find it particularly funny when friends don't want to play in games together anymore, so please help me understand how it is funny for you.

 

 

I'll be sure to double check with you next time before I lol. Since clearly you're the authority on humor.

 

 

We all have one kind of meta or other attached to us we're not a fan of. Some are valid, some less. And we all complain about it and that's fine. But the only way to get rid of it is prove its invalid in the game. People look at interactions all the times. You guys are no special case and you can't really expect people not to note it if they feel so inclined. And I believe your first words after realizing you were in a scum team with Leelou in my Buffy game was "well, we're screwed". Why is that? Because you guys struggle with interaction when you're not V/V. And that's actually something you banked on as scummates in that specific game to win, because you rose above it and tried to act naturally with each other. Guess what? it worked. 

 

I've had instances where meta stuff ticked me off, or certain behaviors, to the point where I didn't really want to keep playing here anymore and I said as much. But guess what? I got over it and kept playing anyhow.

[Nynaeve]

Also I think it's a an exaggeration in itself. People might look at how you guys regard each other, but they also look at individual play. I can't think of any games off the top of my head where either of you got mislynched solely based on your interactions coming off awkward. If I'm wrong, point me to games where this came to pass and I'll retract my comment.

 

So yeah, pet peeves are all good and well.... but that's not going to change how people approach the game, nor it should.

[Kaylee]

  On 1/18/2017 at 9:11 PM, Zander said:

I def dont want you to not play together guys, but like mentioned, some players base reads on how certain people interact with each other.

 

There are players I interact with a lot away from Mafia and it helps me form reads when play, players like Nyn, Hallia, Dice etc. This also leads into other players asking ME to give MY reads on those players as either alignment.

 

Like I ask you guys your reads on each other because you guys have played A LOT of games together and know each other well both in and away from Mafia.

 

And I dont think its fair for you to feel uncomfortable playing with Verb but I also dont think its fair for other players to not be able to ask you guys for your reads on each other because then as Scum it would give you guys something to hide behind.

 

I hope we can find the balance that will both allow you to play and not tamper with the integrity of the game so to speak.

Perhaps the problem, correct me if I'm wrong here Leelou, isn't in asking them for reads on each other but rather basing your reads on them due to the response they give.

 

Ex: Player X "Lee what are your reads on Verbal and Crusher?"

 

Leelou: "Crusher is ok for now, though if he doesn't step it up then he's not looking good. Verbal is a null for now."

 

Player X: "Lee must be scum because she doesn't want to read Verbal."

 

VS...

 

Player X "Lee what are your reads on Verbal and Crusher?"

 

Leelou: "Crusher is ok for now, though if he doesn't step it up then he's not looking good. Verbal is a null for now."

 

Player X: "Fair enough." Or keeping thoughts to self. Basically not using her answer to how she reads specifically Verbal as a sole reason to read her.

[Leelou]

Okay, I've come to the conclusion that if we play together, I'm not going to read him. You guys can ask me all you want, but you won't get an answer. Consider us mafia divorced and we're fighting over the dog. 

 

My biggest issue doesn't have to do with being asked for a read on Verbal if the person asking is also making their own read. Sometimes I'd like to see someone's read on him first though instead of just being asked. My biggest issue comes from one of us being scum read if we don't interact. That's my main issue. Because quite frankly most times I don't interact with him I'm not online the same time he is (every so often I'm annoyed at him, like maybe once). Sh*t happens and I'm pretty busy during work days now. So I sometimes just swoop in and try to post something, anything, so I don't get so far behind and next thing I know we're getting crap for not interacting. THAT is my issue. And I understand it's META, but it's so beyond frustrating to deal with when it's outside my control. 

 

And I know I can't tell people how to play, but understand it's been beyond frustrating to deal with over the years. 

[Verbal32]

  On 1/18/2017 at 9:23 PM, Nynaeve said:

I'll be sure to double check with you next time before I lol. Since clearly you're the authority on humor.

 

 

We all have one kind of meta or other attached to us we're not a fan of. Some are valid, some less. And we all complain about it and that's fine. But the only way to get rid of it is prove its invalid in the game. People look at interactions all the times. You guys are no special case and you can't really expect people not to note it if they feel so inclined. And I believe your first words after realizing you were in a scum team with Leelou in my Buffy game was "well, we're screwed". Why is that? Because you guys struggle with interaction when you're not V/V. And that's actually something you banked on as scummates in that specific game to win, because you rose above it and tried to act naturally with each other. Guess what? it worked. 

 

I've had instances where meta stuff ticked me off, or certain behaviors, to the point where I didn't really want to keep playing here anymore and I said as much. But guess what? I got over it and kept playing anyhow.

 

This ain't my thread, yo.  She's clearly upset, and you "lol".  Switch places for a second and think about how you'd respond.  If you immediately thought, "omg I'd fly off the handle and rip you in 14 consecutive posts", then you'd be pretty accurate, hehe.

 

And yes, actually I am the authority on humor.  My role as Chief Spidey Meme'r states it.  So there.