Killing in WoT and it's affect on characters

[dexterryu]

So as I was reading through the live-blog by Lia / Nexue, one of the things that occured to me as that a fair amount of time is spent on Rand/Mat/Perrin's first kills and how they cope with it. Particularly if/when they killed someone of the opposite sex.

 

I am trying to remember, but I can't recall any time that the 3 main girls killed anyone (outside of shadowspawn) or if their was any time given to the mental state having taken their first life. There are scenes when one could assume that they killed (Nyneave battling the Seanchan in TGH, Egwene during the Aeil/Shaido battle at Cairhien, and not sure if Elayne ever killed anyone).

 

Anyone have any thoughts or remember anything?

[szilard]

There are scenes when one could assume that they killed

 

Really?

 

The sprgrls are 'killers' too.

 

 

on its effects: violence is part of their life, death is also. We were like that too. I think this only changed a few decades ago

 

I don't know the causes, maybe one of them: http://www.arhp.org/publications-and-resources/contraception-journal/august-2011 but sad to see that people cannot process death anymore. If there is a dying relative, they put them into a hospital (or into a care center whatever), because they cannot cope with them.

 

Or see infant mortality: that was not 'a problem' decades ago, because women were a sort of birth factories. 'A bad product'? Yeah, it's painful, but we will make another child. This mentality is not 'in fashion' in these days. There were always exceptions even 2000-3000 years ago ofc, but most women put these things 'away' (or we just don't know about them). Where I grow up, there were not long term mournings: the child is dead, that's it. If someone says this today everybody thinks them crazy.

 

Or see the soldiers in tanks/'drones': they teach them to see this whole thing as a big video game in these days, but they cannot work off the impacts.

 

Or see the animal killings in farms. That was a natural thing even for my (grand)parents (killing chickens etc - killing little chicken is a very stressful job in factories, not many people can do it more than a few months) but my generation cannot do this (I would say 98%) 

 

But seeing wars and their victims makes me saying that the gloss/coating of the so-called civilization is very, very mallable. A man can rape/kill/rob/steal very easily. The so-called pussification is just a myth.

[Sabio]

There is also a big difference with killing with the power and a sword.  When you bring down lightning, yes you are killing but it's less personal.  When you stab someone, it's close and you are right there.  I look at like in WWII, when bombers would go over on a mission, they knew they were killing people, but many said it didn't feel like it since they didn't see the people.  Where the infantry it was often close and you saw your target.

 

Egwene killed in TGH and at the last battle also.  TGH especially she had the I want to kill them all mindset.  Bit I don't think there was ever anything put in how they felt after.

[mb]

Great Hunt?  I do not remember Egwene killing in that book.

I think you mean Gathering Storm.

 

if I remember correctly, Rand/Mat/Perrin/Egwene/Nynaeve first killed in that battle between Baerlon and Shadar Logoth.

human kills by Two Rivers folk.  first was by Perrin, 2 Whitecloaks (Eye of World).  second and third I think in Great Hunt; and I think in same chapter (I do not remember which chapter). second by Mat, some Seanchan; third by Rand, a Seanchan lord + blademaster.

Perrin kills humans again in Dragon Reborn; a number of Whitecloaks.

Mat's second human killing I think was Melhindrah; Fires of Heaven.  not sure if that name was spelled right.

Rand's second human killing I think was in Lord of Chaos; several Whitecloaks.  again he kills in Crown of Swords; the Maiden that went missing in Lord of Chaos.  and again in Path of Daggers; a bunch of Seanchan and a bunch of his own men; later poisoned some Black Tower initiate (due to that one becoming insane).  and again in Winter's Heart; some renegade Ashaman.

Mat kills another human in Crossroads of Twilight; that suldam that collared Egwene in Great Hunt.  and more in Knife of Dreams; mostly Seanchan in battles.

Perrin kills humans in Knife of Dreams; I think several Shaido.  and his only human kills after that I think were Slayer and Cyndane/Lanfear; Memory of Light.

[Sabio]

The resuce in falme she blasted the seanchean, she shouted something like let me show you what they taught me and then made the street explode.

 

Also for Rand don't forget Ishy, he killed that guy 3 times, Agnior, Rhavin, Semi& a BA, and a whole building full of people.  He also tried to kill Samm and Gren.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, Rand's second kill after Turak was in TDR where he kills the darkfriends he meets on the road when he is travelling alone to Tear. One was a woman. 

 

Rand: Loathe to kill in general at the start, which continues. He tries to avoid killing whenever possible, and won't kill a female. However, due to madness and his position, accepts the burden of killing, although even for Darkfriend females he feels guilty. His character evolves of course and goes through several stages, but in his ultimate state, complete as it were, his core 'Rand' believes in killing only if necessary. 

 

Mat: Of the 3 boys, he has the least hangups about killing. He doesn't enjoy it, but when in a battle or conflict, he knows it's him or them, and doesn't hesitate to kill, nor feels much remorse. (On occasion he does, but in general.) He, like the rest of the TR men, does not like killing women, but is less hung up about it than Perrin or Rand. He may feel guilty or sad, but he does it. 

 

Perrin: He is most affected by killing of the 3 boys. He is loathe to kill anyone, particularly females. Even when necessary, he feels guilt. He struggles with killing humans the most of the men.

Egwene kills a bunch of people, first at Falme, she executes hundreds of Black Ajah (although whether she took any personal involvement in it is debatable. She kills dozens, possibly hundreds of Senchan in the WT raid. Several Black Ajah in ToM and the Ayyad pretty much completely in AMOL. Egwene seems to be willing to kill in anger or for justice, and has little remorse for those she does kill. However, she won't kill those she believes she doesn't have to, and prefers not to kill if possible (unless they are Seanchan or Darkfriends.) 

 

Nynaeve: IIRC, out of the TR gang, she kills the least amount of humans, and is the most reluctant to kill. The only time I remember her killing a human is in TOM in the battle with Mesaana. She is the equivalent of a modern doctor under the Hippocratic Oath.

Elayne: Being raised as Royalty, the idea of killing does not particularly bother her. She knows execution and death in war is a part of life. On a personal level, she prefers diplomacy to killing, but is pragmatic about killing. Whenever she does kill, she doesn't really feel bad about it, because she only kills in necessary situations. Off the top of my head, the moment that stands out for me is her killing the Black Ajah captives in Caemlyn after they escape.  

[jack of shadows]

high lord turak wasn't rand first human kill nor his second,eye of the world chapter

32,rand and mat are trapped inside the store room of the dancing cartman inn,with

darkfriends outside their door,trying to break it,so rand(unintentionally),blasts the

outerwall with lightning and fries all the darkfriends in the vicinity.

then we have the question:who or what killed aginor at the eye of the world,according

to the wheel of time companion,it was rand who killed him.

 

welcome back barid,where have you been?

[BFG]

But I doubt Rand realised until much later that he killed the darkfrienda in the EotW so wouldn't have the psychological affects until after he'd killed elsewhere anyway?

[Sabio]

BFG is right, to this day he might still have no idea that was him since he still didn't understand the power did that.  Since he had no teacher he might not even know all the symptoms he was having along the way in the first book were reactions to touching the source.  Mat and him probably think it was a freak accident or them being ta'vern.  Again with Aginor I'm not Sure Rand fully understands what he did.  It would be easy to think Agnior simply drew in too much of the power and went poof.  The first time he killed someone and knew for sure he killed someone, was Turak.  He was also was thinking of killing with a sword, he mentions he had killed Trolloc's but never a human.  To kill with a weapon and see the person on the ground by your feet is a personal thing, in the void it's nothing, but after you have to face what you did.

[jack of shadows]

two different issues here,

high lord turak wasn't rand first human kill it's a fact,it doesn't matter whether

his previous kills were unintentional,a kill is a kill.

measuring the effects of killings on rand's psych is problematic,because rand

remembered bits and pieces from his past life,and in his past life he murdered

his wife and children,that tragedy defined rand(our rand) more than anything,

so if you're looking for a place to start assessing rand's state of mind,it is there

and then not killing high lord turak.

sabio,don't underestimate rand,post dragonmount rand is aware of everything,

past and present.

[dexterryu]

Sorry for not responding sooner. Posted at work on Friday and had a busy weekend.

 

The point of the post was the PTSD/Guilt like symptoms that all 3 of the guys experienced. In each case, time was spent on how taking a human life affected them. However, when the girls killed I don't recall them dealing with this at all. So the discussion was about two things... #1 Did they and I missed it and #2 if they did not, why  not? Just an ommision on RJs part or him not really knowing how/if PTSD/Guilt affected a womans psyche to portray it?

 

Barid's post is the sort of thing I was looking for.

 

When it comes to Egwene, at least on screen taking lives really doesn't seem to bother her. She's directly taken many lives and doesn't seem to have any remorse or guilt over it. Maybe it's the difference of killing with the Power vs doing it directly with your own hands like Rand/Mat/Perrin have in the melee fights they'd been in.

 

As for Elayne, I can't think of a time where she directly killed anyone. For me, it's a distinct difference than that of a ruler handing out a death sentence vs actually swinging the sword.

 

Nyneave is similar. One can think that in some of the battles she'd been in that she's directly taken a life (starting with Falme). Of the three, she'd be in my mind the one most likely to have guilt over it.

[Sistone]

Great Hunt?  I do not remember Egwene killing in that book.

I think you mean Gathering Storm.

 

if I remember correctly, Rand/Mat/Perrin/Egwene/Nynaeve first killed in that battle between Baerlon and Shadar Logoth.

human kills by Two Rivers folk.  first was by Perrin, 2 Whitecloaks (Eye of World).  second and third I think in Great Hunt; and I think in same chapter (I do not remember which chapter). second by Mat, some Seanchan; third by Rand, a Seanchan lord + blademaster.

Perrin kills humans again in Dragon Reborn; a number of Whitecloaks.

Mat's second human killing I think was Melhindrah; Fires of Heaven.  not sure if that name was spelled right.

Rand's second human killing I think was in Lord of Chaos; several Whitecloaks.  again he kills in Crown of Swords; the Maiden that went missing in Lord of Chaos.  and again in Path of Daggers; a bunch of Seanchan and a bunch of his own men; later poisoned some Black Tower initiate (due to that one becoming insane).  and again in Winter's Heart; some renegade Ashaman.

Mat kills another human in Crossroads of Twilight; that suldam that collared Egwene in Great Hunt.  and more in Knife of Dreams; mostly Seanchan in battles.

Perrin kills humans in Knife of Dreams; I think several Shaido.  and his only human kills after that I think were Slayer and Cyndane/Lanfear; Memory of Light.

Mat goes on a kill streak when leaving Tar Valon in TDR. Thinks its like 4 or 5 by the time he and Thom leave on boat.

[mb]

went through the scene where Egwene escapes from the Seanchan.  that scene does not mention any corpses.  It seems to me that the Seanchan were injured/wounded.

[Sabio]

"Except for those that lay around the two large holes marring the street.  Some of those stirred feebly, and moans drfited along the street".  So some were injured, but we can assume that since the ground just errupted underneath them, that many of the ones not stirring feebly were probably dead.  The point was Egwene certainly was trying to kill them.  She also didn't show a lot of sympathy or hesitation when doing it.  Now in her defense, after she did that they were fighting for their lives to get out so there wasn't a lot of POV time after the fight to see if there was any remorse about killing.  SInce next time we see them they are nearing the White Tower, so some time has passed since the fight.

[DemandredFO]

I don't hate Elayne but she is an immature brat who gets people killed protecting her from herself. Not alot goes on upstairs though sometimes she shows flashes of brilliance but mostly a follower.

[Orderofolde]

Wow, I forgot that the girls killed as early as TGH!  Thinking back on it, it makes sense.  Nynaeve and Elayne killed some of the Seanchan soldiers when Liandrin led them out and into the waiting hands of Suroth.  Egwene was collared and Min was captured but even Min tried using her knives and cut a soldier.  Later on when Egwene was freed she turned and gave brief battle against the Seanchan iirc until Min and the others could turn her back to fleeing with them.  I thought that they didn't start until they were hunting Black Ajah and Egwene and Avi were atop the tower using the power on the Shaido attacking Cairhien.  I suppose that makes an interesting point between the killing in person and those more distant with the OP.

[szilard]

Nynaeve: IIRC, out of the TR gang, she kills the least amount of humans, and is the most reluctant to kill. The only time I remember her killing a human is in TOM in the battle with Mesaana. She is the equivalent of a modern doctor under the Hippocratic Oath.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/78118-nynaeve-and-rhavin/

[szilard]

And one could kill with a decision/word/act etc.

[mb]

I don't hate Elayne but she is an immature brat who gets people killed protecting her from herself.

if you are referring to Knife of Dreams chapters 31 & 32, those deaths I do not count as Elayne's fault since she did not know that extra Blacks were there and since she seemed to take the right precautions (in regards to the knowledge she had); those deaths I count as the Black's fault.  there was at least one past thread that discussed this.

or if you are referring to Elayne securing her throne, the fault to me would be the nobles that fought her and not Elayne's.

[dexterryu]

And one could kill with a decision/word/act etc.

Definitely so, but there is a detachment to that in the scenario I'm referring to in my original post. E.I... A ruler could declare war and "kill" many people both ally and enemy but be detached enough from it to feel the affects of killing someone directly. Same goes for something like passing a sentence. I would say that unless the judge knew the defendant (like Rand did with Mangin) it would be the same in having a detachment unless the judge also happened to be the executioner.

 

At any rate, this post is meant to discuss the emotional impacts on the characters when they directly take a human life. Additionally to also analyze the difference in how the male and female characters each carry (or don't) that burden. My initial observation is that (outside of Nyneave) that the females tend to be much more remorseless than the males.

[szilard]

 

And one could kill with a decision/word/act etc.

Definitely so, but there is a detachment to that in the scenario I'm referring to in my original post. E.I... A ruler could declare war and "kill" many people both ally and enemy but be detached enough from it to feel the affects of killing someone directly. Same goes for something like passing a sentence. I would say that unless the judge knew the defendant (like Rand did with Mangin) it would be the same in having a detachment unless the judge also happened to be the executioner.

 

At any rate, this post is meant to discuss the emotional impacts on the characters when they directly take a human life. Additionally to also analyze the difference in how the male and female characters each carry (or don't) that burden. My initial observation is that (outside of Nyneave) that the females tend to be much more remorseless than the males.

 

 

Ok, but

 

"One hundred and fifty-one, Perrin.  One hundred and fifty-one Maidens died today.  For me.  I promised them, you see.  Don't argue with me!  Shut up!  Go away!"  Despite his sweat, Rand shivered.  "Not you, Perrin; not you.  I have to keep my promises, you see.  Have to, no matter how it hurts.  But I have to keep my promise to myself, too.  No matter how it hurts."

 

Anyway, this world belongs to women, because the original sin is caused by men.  Our boys try to find a way to fit in. (It's not accident that I use words like women and boys. Except Eg ofc)

 

See El in TPOD Ch.6. She kills a buch of people and

 

“We are alive,” Elayne said firmly, “and that is what counts.” She would weep for Lioness later.

 

She never looks back; maybe she does but we do not get that info. Women are more practical than men from this point of view, but I don't think that they could live without any remorse.

[szilard]

And the inevitable question: is there any kind of burden if there's no free will?

[jack of shadows]

in my opinion,rand's decision to hang mangin,was not as painful

as administering poison into fedwin morr's cup.

[Sabio]

 

And one could kill with a decision/word/act etc.

Definitely so, but there is a detachment to that in the scenario I'm referring to in my original post. E.I... A ruler could declare war and "kill" many people both ally and enemy but be detached enough from it to feel the affects of killing someone directly. Same goes for something like passing a sentence. I would say that unless the judge knew the defendant (like Rand did with Mangin) it would be the same in having a detachment unless the judge also happened to be the executioner.

 

At any rate, this post is meant to discuss the emotional impacts on the characters when they directly take a human life. Additionally to also analyze the difference in how the male and female characters each carry (or don't) that burden. My initial observation is that (outside of Nyneave) that the females tend to be much more remorseless than the males.

 

 

I still think it's more to do with killing with the OP vs killing with a weapon.  Anytime Mat and Perin have had to kill it's been face to face.  The three women it's with the OP, and Rand its been with a weapon and OP.  I do think the OP offers a detachment when you kill with it. 

[BFG]

in my opinion,rand's decision to hang mangin,was not as painful

as administering poison into fedwin morr's cup.

I don't know if that's something I could quantify.

 

As a reader Morr's death is heartbreaking because he represents an entire group that basically started fighting knowing from the start that death or worse was how it ended and they did it anyway. It's harder to sympathise with Mangin

 

From Rands perspective they represent different steps along a path, and while each may be necessary I'm not sure the earlier step is easier, even if it's smaller from a point of view. Mangin was one of the early steps that started his isolation, while Morr brought Rand face to face with what could happen to him, what could/will happen to the other men who learned to channel because of him